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Do you throw or twist?

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  • Nail_ItNail_It Members  160WRX Points: 128Posts: 160 Fairways
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    Pepperturbo kinda sidetracked us with the grip that his uncle taught him, but...here's a related [grip] topic since we moved off-topic that may be very helpful.

    Not only are there many different types of grips used by tour pros and expert players, but finding the correct one for you personally is not always easy. They run the gamut from strong to weak, a finger grip versus palm, ten finger or Vardon or Spieth, firm or light, long thumb or short thumb, etc. Some people have long thin fingers, some have short fat fingers, some have a thumb that is double jointed which can be bent-back to touch their forearm and some are stiff jointed. Finding the best grip is difficult to say the least, and most golfers I'm quite sure just end up with some form of a grip they hope will work out for them...and then they look for help with all the other various pieces and parts of their swing in hopes of turning pro breaking 80 some day.

    One of the things pertaining to the grip that often causes perplexing swing issues is the left thumb. Golfers that choose to use a so-called long thumb have far more of a tendency to cause themselves early extension (casting) or simply the inability to sustain lag during the downswing, which is caused by the thumb pushing out on the side of the club's grip. If you have a long thumb and/or have a habit of wearing out your glove in the thumb and/or wearing out a scalloped depression in your clubs' grip where your left thumb touches the grip, then you might want to experiment with a short thumb. Just a suggestion...  


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    Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

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  • CarlitoCarlito Members  15WRX Points: 77Posts: 15 Bunkers
    Joined:  edited Jul 21, 2020 7:38am #273

    Take a look at the views.... can this be true?

    Nail_it, i think you really touched a nerve!

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  • Nard_SNard_S Members  3952WRX Points: 905Handicap: 9Posts: 3,952 Titanium Tees
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    Wear pattern on glove as pictured suggests hands are just not working together.

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  • Nail_ItNail_It Members  160WRX Points: 128Posts: 160 Fairways
    Joined:  edited Jul 21, 2020 5:18pm #275

    I specifically was referring only to how the thumb wears a hole in the glove with reference to using a 'long thumb' - not the wear pattern of the entire glove, which is immaterial to the purpose of my post.

    The purpose of highlighting the subject of a 'long thumb' (with the hole in the thumb of the glove) is to explain how using a long thumb oftentimes (very often) causes the golfer to unintentionally and unconsciously push on the side of the shaft (grip) with their left thumb, which causes the golfer to cast or release too early and totally upsets a swinging type motion. The golf club should be pulled longitudinally along the axis of the clubshaft in a circular arc, not a radial push force on the side of the shaft by either the left thumb or the right forefinger. A 'short thumb' is usually best to prevent the latter from happening...and can turn a poor swing into a sound swing right away.


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    Post edited by Nail_It on

    Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

  • Nail_ItNail_It Members  160WRX Points: 128Posts: 160 Fairways
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    I never paid any attention, but it looks like people are definitely interested, which is nice.

    Posted:

    Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

  • oiler45oiler45 Members  388WRX Points: 208Posts: 388 Greens
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    I've been using the "open the pickle-jar" with my right hand diligently for two full weeks now - 5 rounds and and about 10 large range buckets. Yesterday I shot the best round I've shot in years at a very tough track. I think the method as Nail-It describes it is not for everybody but it works for me and I want to thank him again for taking so much time on this thread. I just concentrate on bending my right wrist back during the backswing, try to initiate my downswing in a normal pattern and twist open the pickle jar prior to impact thinking of my right hand only. My divots are COMPLETELY different than they were before and my confidence with my irons has never been higher.

    I really have to tone the "twisting the jar" feeling down with my hybrids, fairway woods and driver or I end up with some massive hooks. For some reason I never hook my irons with this method which shows me how badly I was scooping and flipping before. Once I figured out how to use this method with my woods, I really feel it is a solid and easy to perform concept.

    And to Pepper's earlier comment about engineers - I agree with you - I'm an engineer and I over-analyze everything about the golf swing, much to my detriment. This concept and technique however is simple and easy to perform and keeps my mind out of things - kinda .... 😉


    Great thread

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  • footmashiefootmashie Members  111WRX Points: 60Posts: 111 Fairways
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    Not my cup of tea, but some chums and me did discuss nearly the same idea more than several years ago based on this youtube. Are you he?


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  • nitramnitram WestOK, on the South Canadian Riviera Members  5909WRX Points: 521Handicap: -.6Posts: 5,909 Titanium Tees
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    I have followed this thread since it's inception without comment simply to see where it would lead because there have been several in my tenure here that have started with good intentions and went down the toilet. It's my sincerest hope that this does not emulate it's predecessors.

    Nail it: I can honestly say without prejudice your first 100 posts are maybe the best in the history of Wrx and certainly worthy of mentioning as a handful of others here (slicefixer, sevam 1, and Howard Jones to name a few) and I sincerely thank you for effort in trying to help the regular Joe in hitting a better ball. There have been a few snide remarks from the gallery and you have withstood the pressure and pretty well stuck to your point and I really appreciate that. I too was taught by a Hogan disciple who caddied for him on occasion and was close enough to be invited to his funeral in which he attended. There are going to be agitator's and detractors and you must refrain from getting side-tracked and led into the abyss. I really hope you remember the reason why you started this and can continue to answer the legitimate questions posed to you.

    MoeHogan, I can attest to your knowledge of Hogan's swing and you've been gracious enough to answer my personal question(s) to validate my understanding of what I was taught. I really don't believe you are trying to derail this thread, only to offer what you know is true and what has worked for you in the quest to "slam that screen door" . Keep adding to it my brother, because what you've written is correct for those who can grasp it.

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  • Nail_ItNail_It Members  160WRX Points: 128Posts: 160 Fairways
    Joined:  edited Jul 22, 2020 1:21am #280

    That was actually pretty funny. He had a rather crude (and soft spoken) way of explaining the right palm down motion. I had to play it a few times and turn up the volume so I could hear and understand what he was actually saying. It was like he didn't want to wake up his next door neighbor sleeping in the hammock just on the other side of the white fence. If you have looked at the last 4-5 pages of this thread you'll see a goodly number of golf instructors advocate the right palm down, twisting technique. If you are asking me if I am the fella in your video, the answer is no, I am not him.

    You are correct - the technique is not for everyone, but no technique is...because we are all made differently in various ways and what works for some, doesn't work for others. This technique is a 'covering' type delivery action compared to what some may call a 'cornering' type delivery action, or another is a 'side' type delivery action. Whether the technique is a good choice depends a lot on if the golfer is heavily right-side dominant playing right-handed, and also the golfer's arm and wrist joint range-of-motion. You may recall PGA tour player Tim Clark grew up with an unusual arm flexion issue where he could not open the palm of his hand to face upward to receive change at a drive-thru fast food window - he had to use his golf cap to retrieve his change. So, there are many various things that make doing something one particular way better than another way, and just because one person can do something a particular way does not mean the next person can. That said, this technique is very common with many tour players and expert amateurs, but it is rarely talked about.

    Posted:

    Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

  • Nail_ItNail_It Members  160WRX Points: 128Posts: 160 Fairways
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    Thank you, nitram! Your kind words are much appreciated.

    Posted:

    Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

  • CarlitoCarlito Members  15WRX Points: 77Posts: 15 Bunkers
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    Nail it: I can honestly say without prejudice your first 100 posts are maybe the best in the history of Wrx and certainly worthy of mentioning as a handful of others here (slicefixer, sevam 1, and Howard Jones to name a few) and I sincerely thank you for effort in trying to help the regular Joe in hitting a better ball. 

    Can not agree more .... and sometimes the below-mentioned by sevam 1 seems within reach


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  • Nard_SNard_S Members  3952WRX Points: 905Handicap: 9Posts: 3,952 Titanium Tees
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    Lol, if you wearing out your glove on the thumb or callusing lead thumb, it has zero to do with a long or short thumb setup. If you "steer" the face with a lead thumb by applying pressure of right thumb pad, you are utilizing the wrong part of the hands entirely. If you set lead thumb at 12 noon on shaft, congrats, you might look like Hogan, but 99.9% of able ball strikers do not do this and no, you will never swing like the Ice Man.

    So "twist the pickle jar", it's good stuff but it is simply not the entire story and of itself is somewhat incomplete.

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  • GolfbeatGolfbeat Swing Lessee Members  1959WRX Points: 276Handicap: 5Posts: 1,959 Platinum Tees
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    Nobody has the complete story. Only some chapters which might guide you further on the endless journey.

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  • Nail_ItNail_It Members  160WRX Points: 128Posts: 160 Fairways
    Joined:  edited Jul 22, 2020 6:50pm #285

    If you use a 'long thumb' in your grip setup you are much (significantly) more likely to push against (lever) the side of the clubshaft (grip) with the left thumb than you are if using a 'short thumb'. And, with that [bad] habit of the thumb pushing on the side of the clubshaft (grip), it of course tends to wear a hole in the thumb area of the glove.

    You said; "if you wearing out your glove on the thumb or callusing lead thumb, it has zero to do with a long or short thumb" You also said: "If you "steer" the face with a lead thumb by applying pressure of the right thumb pad, you are utilizing the wrong part of the hands entirely."

    You have neglected to say what, in your opinion, is the actual cause of wearing a hole in the thumb of a glove. You never said so, but I presume you think the 'only' cause of wearing a hole in the glove at the thumb to be 'steering the clubface' with the lead thumb by applying pressure with the right thumb pad. Could the cause possibly be either 'steering the clubface' or 'pushing against the side of the grip', or even both? Or, since you neglected to state what the cause of the glove wear is, maybe you think there is/are some other reason(s) for it...

    Posted:

    Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

  • Nard_SNard_S Members  3952WRX Points: 905Handicap: 9Posts: 3,952 Titanium Tees
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    I did suggest in an earlier post that reason for excessive wear is because the hands are not working together. Most likely, they are not working together, because arms & torso are not working together. Which leads me back to an earlier post as to why one should not "choose a side" to swing from. If there is a pressure point in hands to "steer" or control the face disposition of club, that point would be along the knuckle line of both hands & not on the thumbs. Delivering the heel pad, the one below the pinky of the trail hand to cover the ball at impact is far more desirable intent. Which by the way is what "turning the pickle lid" attempts to do.

    Posted:
  • Nail_ItNail_It Members  160WRX Points: 128Posts: 160 Fairways
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    I have no clue how you can make a definite determination that the hands are not working together by just looking at a hole in the glove. Even more so, I am dazzled that you can most likely conclude that the arms and torso are not working together by looking at a hole in the glove. 

    Posted:

    Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

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  • Nard_SNard_S Members  3952WRX Points: 905Handicap: 9Posts: 3,952 Titanium Tees
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    Because it's a rabbit hole I've been down in. I hit about 10K balls a year. Don't wear a glove, do have calluses but I don't wear out grips or scallop them. If I'm grinding my thumb it's a clear sign my swing is not working correctly. The brunt of club control lies in 3 fingers on lead and 2 fingers on trail. I think Hogan's book even shows that.

    Posted:
  • Nail_ItNail_It Members  160WRX Points: 128Posts: 160 Fairways
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    I agree that if someone is wearing out their glove or grips at the thumb that their swing is not working correctly, but in my opinion the most likely cause of this abnormal wear disagrees with your opinion of what causes it. It is my opinion that abnormal wear of the glove or grip by the thumb is more likely to be caused by handicap golfers' typically bad habit of pushing or levering the side of the clubshaft (grip), and this is more likely to happen when the golfer uses a long thumb as opposed to a short thumb. You, as an individual handicap golfer, may [indeed] find that your personal tendency of grinding your lead thumb against the grip (assumed to be your affliction to control the clubface) is caused by yet a different problem, but that does not mean there is 'only' one cause of wearing a hole in the thumb of a glove as you suggested, which in your opinion does not include pushing or levering the lead thumb against the side of the clubshaft (grip). I think there are at least two potential causes or reasons for such wear; (a) pushing or levering the side of the clubshaft and (b) attempting to control the clubface with torque force applied to the lead thumb.

    I agree that club control needs to be with the last three fingers of the lead hand and the middle two fingers of the trail hand, which is a topic that has not been questioned or disputed.

    Posted:

    Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

  • Nard_SNard_S Members  3952WRX Points: 905Handicap: 9Posts: 3,952 Titanium Tees
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    If you have to apply force through your thumb, you simply are not swinging correctly.

    Posted:
  • Nail_ItNail_It Members  160WRX Points: 128Posts: 160 Fairways
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    We agree on that!



    @Nard_S

    "If I'm grinding my thumb it's a clear sign my swing is not working correctly."

    Is that a common problem for you?

    Posted:

    Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

  • Nard_SNard_S Members  3952WRX Points: 905Handicap: 9Posts: 3,952 Titanium Tees
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    Well, it's about time isn't it, lol.

    At one time or another I've suffered every swing ailment known, including improper pressures on handle of club. These days can sense and rectify it rather quickly but it is for the most part not a high area of concern.

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  • Nail_ItNail_It Members  160WRX Points: 128Posts: 160 Fairways
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    Looking back on the most recent 20-25 posts of this thread doesn't give me a very good feeling. As most of you should know by now I'm here to help others, but things have gone kinda sideways more than I'd like recently. First it was Pepperturbo who wanted to let us know that he learned his grip from his uncle. Being the helpful type that I am I took the opportunity in the change of topics to share something I thought would be helpful to others about the grip ... with reference to using a 'short thumb' versus a 'long thumb' and I fully explained the situation that many golfers face when using a 'long thumb'. Then it was Nard_S who wanted to assert that he could read the tea leaves worn hole on the glove and tell for certain what caused it, which admittedly sucked me into a back-n-forth about worn holes in golf gloves. Sadly, there has not been anything material or worthwhile posted to help people for awhile except for the advice on the 'short thumb' versus a 'long thumb' which was quickly derailed. I truly hope this pattern isn't the norm going forward...

    PS - Once again, my appreciation goes out to nitram for giving me such a nice public message for my "effort in trying to help the regular Joe in hitting a better ball." Maybe it was a jinx! I hope not - I hope we can get back to helping others instead of posting meaningless innuendo that doesn't help anyone.

    Posted:

    Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

  • Nail_ItNail_It Members  160WRX Points: 128Posts: 160 Fairways
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    oiler45 - I meant to respond to your post but got sidetracked. Congratulations on shooting your best round in years on a tough golf course using the 'open the pickle jar' technique. Obviously it suits your golf DNA. I appreciate the nice comment ... and you are very welcome!

    Posted:

    Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

  • nitramnitram WestOK, on the South Canadian Riviera Members  5909WRX Points: 521Handicap: -.6Posts: 5,909 Titanium Tees
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    I've been accused of several things in my life, but never a jinx LOL. Guess there's a first time for everything...

    And again, your contribution(s) to helping a novice or struggling golfer to find a way to compress the ball (irregardless of being counter-intuitive) is both commendable and memorable.

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  • Nail_ItNail_It Members  160WRX Points: 128Posts: 160 Fairways
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    Of course the accusation was given tongue in cheek.

    Again, thank you!

    Posted:

    Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

  • nitramnitram WestOK, on the South Canadian Riviera Members  5909WRX Points: 521Handicap: -.6Posts: 5,909 Titanium Tees
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    No worries man, just keep preachin' and help these guys who need it. Not everyone is gonna agree with you and that's ok. But there is a lot of good in what you're espousing.

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  • CarlitoCarlito Members  15WRX Points: 77Posts: 15 Bunkers
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    Ok, back to topic...

    What do you think about the idea leaving arms and hands up in transition as long as possible? Supported by the feeling of a long right thumb (storing the extension) falling behind you in transition.

    Hope you understand an old man`s wandering mind.

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  • Nail_ItNail_It Members  160WRX Points: 128Posts: 160 Fairways
    Joined:  edited Jul 24, 2020 12:18am #300

    There's no doubt some good players have the feeling that they leave their arms/hands up in transition for an extra bit of time as their lower body starts the process from the ground up of swinging the golf club. But I think it is important to understand that including such a concept into one's golf swing it must be thought-out how it is [suppose] to influence or affect the golf swing - is it to happen just micro-briefly or throughout the entire downswing and even into the follow-through. I think some golfers attempt to adopt a concept but they don't quite understand the exact intent of the concept. An example of this would be (to use your idea) to adopt the theory of leaving the arms/hands up in transition to help the lower body get a head start in its sequencing process. That sounds totally reasonable and understandable to most people on the surface, because that's basically what happens when we throw a ball - we leave the arm/hand behind as our body does it thing (a.k.a. kinematic sequence) to prepare the arm/hand/fingers to throw the ball. The problem comes about when the golfer (or pitcher) doesn't find this sequencing to be natural to them. For the sake of argument the body sequencing is far more natural when throwing a ball with one arm than it is swinging a golf club using both arms. So, if the sequencing does not come naturally for the golfer he really needs to better understand what happens ... and that includes not just how his body is to sequence and move but also how his wrists and the golf club are to be moved (propelled) since the golf club is an extension of his arms/hands.

    If the golfer doesn't have a clear concept of exactly why he should leave the arms/hands up in transition, he will likely start to wonder why it works for some people, but not for him. In other words, he will probably begin to wonder how long the arms/hands are to be left up in transition, and what is supposed to trigger them to begin moving, and do the arms/hands naturally play catch-up (via body rotation, or gravity, or with intentional muscular activity) during the downswing, or are they somehow to remain lagging behind throughout the entire downswing...and if they are to remain lagging behind throughout the entire downswing - do they ever catch-up or sync-up - and if they do catch-up is it a natural event or does the golfer intentionally speed up his arms to make it happen? Does it cause 'being trapped'? Lots of pieces and parts to think about if you want to really understand the concept of leaving the arms/hands up in transition. As they say - the devil is in the details! The concept obviously works for some, and doesn't work for others. If it works for you - do it! If it doesn't work for you, then you might want to experiment with it...but I would suggest first thinking about what exactly you want and expect it to accomplish.

    I think good players have a clear concept in their mind's eye of what they do with their body and the golf club before they swing, and this helps them to coordinate and sync-up their body movements (a.k.a. kinematic sequence) better compared to a golfer that doesn't yet understand how best to swing a golf club two-handed on an inclined plane.

    The problem that almost every handicap golfer faces is - if the good swings are going to be repeated you must remember what the good swings feel like to you and what you actually did to hit that spine-tingling wonderful shot, but that doesn't necessarily come easy for most people. Ernie Els has said that he learned as a young boy that it was fruitless for him to swing hard at the ball, thus the illusion of his visually slow-motion golf swing. Everybody is different, and that is why you can see a friend's golf swing from 500 yards away and know who it is just by the distinctiveness of their individual golf swing. If you think about that, it is more than uncanny.

    Instead of trying to understand stuff like angular momentum, rotational forces and inertia to learn how to acquire a sound golf swing I think it is far better to learn the 'feel' of a sound golf swing. But you might say: How can I learn the feel of a sound golf swing when I don't yet know how to make a sound golf swing. It's the old chicken or the egg situation. I also realize that when a handicap golfer hits that once-every-so-often gorgeous shot that a pro would be proud of he is rarely able to duplicate it in succession. I personally have never tried riding a bull, but I'll bet bull riders have a more difficult time learning how to successfully ride bulls than golfers do in learning how to make a sound golf swing that he is able to repeat almost every time. Maybe bull riding is a poor comparison so lets instead say learning how to quickly get a gyroscopic hand exerciser ball going, or maybe learning to spin a rope/lasso, or even better would be swinging a flail (pictured below) efficiently and effectively. Accomplishing any of these events are ultimately performed by using individualized techniques that each person may start out doing quite differently compared to the next person attempting the same event, but there are always definite and specific things that each technique always have in common. You might be wondering if there is a technique to swinging a flail since it is said to be commonly associated with how a golf club is supposed to be swung. Yes, there is. I'm sure a long time ago when flails were commonly used to thrash wheat some of the children on the farm picked-up on the technique quite naturally and some had to spend some time learning how to swing a flail without hurting themselves or others around them. Much like learning the golf swing they practiced, but they actually practiced by swinging the flail to thrash their wheat and after awhile they got good at swinging the flail and it became as natural to them as walking or throwing a rotten apple to knock over an empty soda pop bottle on the fence post.

    So, I'm sure you're thinking - is there a trick technique to swinging a flail golf club? The tour pros know how to do it with a high degree of confidence and the low handicap and scratch players know how to do it. Someone please tell me how to do it. Well, okay. Have you ever studied a golf trick-shot artist and tried to figure out how he can swing a golf club with a rope, wire or a linked chain for the shaft? Have you ever tried to hit a golf ball using the Medicus dual hinge training club? The technique in learning how to skillfully swing any one of these are all the same. It has virtually nothing to do with setup, spine angle, shoulder alignment, grip, body parts, release point, etc., etc. It has almost everything to do with clearly understanding how you would propel (swing) a fist-size ball on the end of a super strong, highly flexible tiny diameter wire...or better yet how you would swing a clubhead with that flexible wire replacing the clubshaft. Think about that. I'll leave that thought with you so hopefully it will prompt you to think about how you [should] propel the golf club from the transition of your golf swing. There's something very important about how you start the downswing that you must understand - if you start to propel the golf club from the top incorrectly the chances are pretty much nil that you will somehow be able to save or correct it from becoming badly discombobulated. A little mishap at the beginning of the downswing (from the transition) creates a much bigger mess with each passing foot of travel. Like a bullet that has been fired from the barrel of a gun, there is no checked swing to save it, or put it back from whence it came. Here's your tip (which I mentioned in a previous post about the short thumb versus the long thumb): The golf club should be pulled longitudinally along the axis of the clubshaft in a circular arc, not a radial push force on the side of the shaft by either the left thumb or the right forefinger.

    No, I do not encourage a long left thumb or a long right thumb because they [each] have a tendency to exert radial pressure to the side of the clubshaft (grip). Have you picked up on the logic and pattern of thinking? I also discourage actively using the first knuckle of the right forefinger unless or until it can only be used when the clubshaft is already (imaginatively) dumping its load straight out the end of the shaft onto the ground in the impact zone ... which brings up another related topic - that being how you want to maximize the 'outward' or longitudinal energy (e.g. down the clubshaft). It's interesting to note that the SwingRite training club (image below) measures the 'outward' (down the shaft) energy force. Most golfers intentionally or unwittingly try to make the 'side of their clubshaft' or clubface move maximally (and more directly at the ball) throughout the entire downswing, which for most of the downswing is greatly divergent to how one would swing a clubhead if a flexible wire replaced the typical clubshaft. I much prefer seeing a downswing that starts down wide ( that follows a circular arc like Adam Scott versus a narrow \_ downswing that takes more of a direct point-to-point path to the ball.

    Maybe too much information. Maybe too mysteriously vague on certain details. I hope it's helpful and thought-provoking. If you have questions, let me know...





    Posted:
    Post edited by Nail_It on

    Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

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  • footmashiefootmashie Members  111WRX Points: 60Posts: 111 Fairways
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    A little mishap at the beginning of the downswing (from the transition) creates a much bigger mess with each passing foot of travel.

    Good one! That's why the ball is hit within the first inch of transition, make a mistake within that inch and the ability save the shot is reduced to advanced players.

    Posted:
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