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Do you throw or twist?

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  • moehoganmoehogan Members  1136WRX Points: 185Posts: 1,136 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Jul 24, 2020 3:24am #302

    Understand how the club needs to move in space to start the DS then feel what it’s like to move it that way.

    (This is from an actual Hogan swing. I asked a graphics wizard friend to erase Mr. H and to just leave the club.)

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  • TexasTurfTexasTurf Members  106WRX Points: 65Posts: 106 Fairways
    Joined:  #303

    I've been reading this thread for weeks waiting for the goods. Still waiting.

    Why be "mysteriously vague?" That is stupid. Like the dumbest thing I have ever heard, but I have heard it over and over again. If you want to help people just say what to do.

    The biggest problem with online forums and instruction is instructors claiming they have a secret and giving you hints claiming that you may figure it out someday. The usual problem is that they haven't figured it out yet themselves and/or don't know how to teach what they do, or they are trying to make money by teasing you along. Or some just like the attention. Elkington, Como, Maves, Johanssen, Jacobs, Frozen Divots, Ayers, Slicefixer, MORAD, Mike Austin & Dunaway, and everyone's favorite Ben H. The list is seemingly endless.

    This post doesn't only apply to the OP, but also the post above. Posting photoshopped pictures helps a little, but saying what to do that works would be much more helpful (like what did Ben do to move that club there after the top position, how is the shaft flexing in that position vs. at the top, etc.) I really enjoy the content from each of you, but posting pictures and saying "figure it out" doesn't help anyone.

    In any other profession or sport, teaching this way would get you obliterated immediately by the competition. But in the field of golf instruction, it's the standard.

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  • CarlitoCarlito Members  15WRX Points: 77Posts: 15 Bunkers
    Joined:  edited Jul 24, 2020 5:09am #304

    Texas, good points. But i think Nail_it is far away from being "mysteriously vague"...

    https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/19561130/#Comment_19561130

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  • CarlitoCarlito Members  15WRX Points: 77Posts: 15 Bunkers
    Joined:  edited Jul 24, 2020 5:44am #305

    Thank you for your detailed answer. It is always a pleasure to read your posts. And always keep in mind "yes, we can!".

    The long right thumb (i do not apply any pressure on the shaft) falling behind me in transition was always a big help to flatten the club if needed. But overdoing it, it causes nasty hooks. I think you always have to find the balance between steepening and flattening moves.

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  • moehoganmoehogan Members  1136WRX Points: 185Posts: 1,136 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #306

    The pic with just the club and Hogan removed is one that helped increase my understanding and awareness of what actually needs to happen in transition. I wanted to see exactly WHERE I needed to move the club. The HOW To, explaining feels and body parts movements, can often be very subjective and interpreted many different ways. Understanding how the club should move in space just gives one an additional perspective that helps in the experimentation process.

    Ben Hogan once said "experimenting is my enjoyment". If golf could be laid out in a universal, fool-proof, detailed step-by-step process easily understood by anyone, the planet would be filled with plus handies. Enjoy the journey!

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  • LefthookLefthook Golf nerd Members  3335WRX Points: 170Posts: 3,335 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #307


    This is not credible at all.

    You clearly have very superficial and flawed ideas about slicefixer’s teachng. There are no mysteriet, no vagueness, and the kids he teach all have exceptionally good swings. There is, however great attention to detail and very explicit principles. You are also wrong about one or to of the others you mention, but I’ll refrain from going into detail since I don’t know them firsthand.

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  • Nail_ItNail_It Members  160WRX Points: 128Posts: 160 Fairways
    Joined:  edited Jul 24, 2020 4:47pm #308

    TexasTurf - You are 180 degrees off on your comprehension of my statement when I said; "Maybe too much information. Maybe too mysteriously vague on certain details. I hope it's helpful and thought-provoking. If you have questions, let me know..." You see, after I made the statement that maybe I provided 'too much information' my very next sentence offered the exact opposite point of view when I said that maybe I was 'too mysteriously vague on certain details'. In no way was that meant to suggest that I was 'purposely' being vague. I see that my very last sentence was also likely mystifying incomprehensible to you, because you had no questions...

    If you are expecting someone [anyone] to provide you with an exacting tailor-made for you, nuts-and-bolts stupidly simple-to-understand, pop-a-pill and go birdie or eagle every hole, then you need to take up another hobby. You remind me of the fella who had never played golf before (even though he claimed he does play the game) and is invited to join his boss and two important clients for a round of golf in a couple days. So, with just one day to learn how to swing a golf club and play the game he took a lesson and was crazed and infuriated to discover that an one hour lesson didn't spontaneously provide him 'the goods' to not look like a fool to the others.

    As a closing thought, please don't take what I have said the wrong way! Godspeed on your search...

    Posted:

    Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

  • ohakim82ohakim82 Members  26WRX Points: 23Posts: 26 Bunkers
    Joined:  edited Jul 24, 2020 4:57pm #309

    I'm ambidextrous or rather the opposite of ambidexterous. I'll alternate on which hand I use depending on the task, but don't use either hand particularly well, lol.

    I've been working on this and found that starting the downswing with a combination of left wrist flexion and right shoulder external rotation is a good thought for me. Found that if I have a good backswing just have to think left wrist/right shoulder and the flexion & external rotation happen automatically when trying to use the two in combination.

    Hardest parts for me have really been getting a) getting a consistently good backswing and b) changing my pivot. Both my backswing and pivot had been jacked up to fit previous swing flaws, lol.

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  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers  16995WRX Points: 1,081Handicap: 4-5Posts: 16,995 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Jul 24, 2020 5:52pm #310

    You're here to help, fine. Most of us that are decent amateurs are here to help too. I am not going to respond to sarcasm. I read "Throw or Twist" as an extension of the grip. I had an opinion about the grip, one that I ACTUALLY learned from "Ben Hogan." Accuracy is important. In Ben Hogan's book Five Lessons he says "In golf there are certain things you must do quite precisely, where being approximately right is not right enough. The grip is one of these areas where being half right accomplishes nothing." Hogan also says "he changed his Long thumb because it let the club drop down too far at the top of the back-swing and it was rough to get his timing right."

    Was this thread meant for only you to post opinions?

    Why did I use books instead of a teacher? Too many teachers lack inter-personal skills and different teaching methods for different learning abilities. I am not a teacher, but a good self-taught golfer that shares my experience based on hitting well over 10k balls that got me to a mid-hi single digit in under 5yrs, 2yrs later a low index of 2, starting at 40yrs old. And still at 70yrs old carding low-mid 70 scores. Yep, not everyone agrees with either of us and it would be nice to get back to substance.

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  • scott_Donaldscott_Donald Aberdeen, Scotland & HoustonMembers  2889WRX Points: 408Posts: 2,889 Titanium Tees
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  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers  16995WRX Points: 1,081Handicap: 4-5Posts: 16,995 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Jul 24, 2020 7:25pm #312

    @scott_Donald - Thanks for that video. I don't usually follow Brandel Chamblee so I was surprised when I heard his views on certain aspects of golf. I especially liked his addicted to Launch Monitor data remark, and nothing equates to feeling the swing on the golf course and mechanics that still uses Hogan and Snead today as swing mechanic examples. Thanks again.

    Posted:
    Titleist TS2 9.5, Ventus 5 "S"
    Titleist TS2 16.5*, Ventus 7 "S"
    Titleist 718 T-MB 17* 2i, Steelfiber i95cw "S"
    Titleist 620 3i i95cw "S"
    Titleist 620 4i-PW, Steelfiber i110 "S"
    SM6 F-52/8, Steelfiber i125 "S"
    SM6 M-58/8, DG-S200
    SC California Monterey
    ProV1 & AVX





  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
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  • Nail_ItNail_It Members  160WRX Points: 128Posts: 160 Fairways
    Joined:  edited Jul 25, 2020 2:02am #313

    Have you ever studied a golf trick-shot artist and tried to figure out how he can swing a golf club with a rope, wire or a linked chain for the shaft? Have you ever tried to hit a golf ball using the Medicus dual hinge training club? The technique in learning how to skillfully swing any one of these are all the same. It has virtually nothing to do with setup, spine angle, shoulder alignment, grip, body parts, release point, etc., etc. It has almost everything to do with clearly understanding how you would propel (swing) a fist-size ball on the end of a super strong, highly flexible tiny diameter wire...or better yet how you would swing a clubhead with that flexible wire replacing the clubshaft. Think about that. I'll leave that thought with you so hopefully it will prompt you to think about how you [should] propel the golf club from the transition of your golf swing. There's something very important about how you start the downswing that you must understand - if you start to propel the golf club from the top incorrectly the chances are pretty much nil that you will somehow be able to save or correct it from becoming badly discombobulated. A little mishap at the beginning of the downswing (from the transition) creates a much bigger mess with each passing foot of travel. Like a bullet that has been fired from the barrel of a gun, there is no checked swing to save it, or put it back from whence it came. Here's your tip (which I mentioned in a previous post about the short thumb versus the long thumb): The golf club should be pulled longitudinally along the axis of the clubshaft in a circular arc, not a radial push force on the side of the shaft by either the left thumb or the right forefinger.

    What I mentioned above (quoted in bold) is admittedly somewhat void of specifics. Lets clear that up ... and I'll try not to be vague.

    I mentioned the trick-shot artist swinging a clubhead on a flexible rope or wire, and swinging a Medicus dual hinge training club as examples of understanding how one would best swing a clubhead with a flexible wire replacing the clubshaft. I asked that people think about how they should best propel the golf club from the transition of their golf swing. If you chose to make a direct hand path (from the top at transition) straight to the bottom (representing impact) it should be clear to most people that the flexible wire (replacing the clubshaft) between the grip and clubhead would fall limp and not propel the clubhead until all the slack was removed...and even then nothing good or worthwhile would happen and any semblance of a 'swing' would have been lost. In fact, it would probably jerk ('jerk' is actually a physics term meaning the rate at which an object's acceleration changes with respect to time) on the clubhead when the slack in the flexible wire became taught...somewhere in time during the downswing. Of course during this time the golfer is doing what he does to manipulate and muscle the golf club down to the golf ball in a heavy, awkward, brutal demonstration of how not to swing a golf club...as the results most always display. However, if you [hopefully instead] chose to make a wide hand path (from the top at transition) along a circular arc (where has this been mentioned before?) then lo and behold, by golly, to our amazement we have created a way to have a taught flexible wire for the entire travel time (with no jerk I might add) from the very top (at transition) all the way through impact. And, that my friends is like capturing lightning in a bottle!

    The quicker you are able to get it swinging, the better chance you have of making a pure golf swing with wonderful results. That's true with anything you are attempting to swing. Do you remember me mentioning about learning how to 'quickly' get a gyroscopic hand exerciser ball going, or spinning a rope/lasso, or even better would be learning how to swing a flail efficiently and effectively? All these things are best made to swing if you know how to get it started swinging quicker - right away. Give a small child a weight on the end of a string and they might struggle to get the weight swinging in orbit right away. Let them do it for a day or two and they'll become an expert at getting it going right away. Is there a technique to it? You bet! A lot of it is 'feel', but you might need to be taught first how best to accomplish it. Getting that gyroscopic hand exerciser ball going quickly can be tricky, especially when done in the non-dominant hand. Is there a technique to it? You bet! Once again, a lot of it is 'feel', but you might need to be taught first how best to accomplish it. Do you see a pattern? Once you figure out 'how' (what is needed) to do it, then it's all (100%) about feel. One last comment about getting the swing started quickly. I don't mean moving the object (club, rock, flail) quickly - I mean actually getting it swinging in orbit as soon as possible. There's a difference!

    Your success in getting something (anything) swinging or spinning is established by the very initial beginnings of the activity. If you start out trying to swing something with a fast jerk or non-swinging type manipulative motion it's doubtful whatever you're trying to swing is suddenly just going to start magically swinging. You upset any chance of swinging from the get-go. So, what do you do. It's best that you stop and start all over again. With a golf swing we don't have the benefit of starting the downswing and checking our swing and starting all over again (unless of course you are Tiger Woods!). That is why it is so very important to get the golf club started swinging right away, as soon as possible. It's not that difficult. A few things we've already discussed definitely help make it easier. A wide downswing that smoothly pulls the golf club longitudinally along the axis of the clubshaft in a circular arc, a short left thumb that doesn't exert force to the side of the clubshaft (grip), refraining from using the trail forefinger from exerting force to the side of the clubshaft (grip), not jerking the club down. All these things are meant to help get the golf club smoothly moving (swinging/propelled) into a circular orbit with no disturbance that would upset the swinging motion. Have you ever wanted to layup short of a water hazard and swung smoothly and to your amazement hit the ball so pure it went 20 yards into the hazard, and it even had a different impact sound and more of a penetrating ball flight? You probably experienced what a pure swing feels like! And you want to experience that wonderful feeling all the time, right?

    Let me mention briefly what a generally direct hand path (not good) from transition to impact actually entails. It brings about a steep angle-of-attack, a narrow impact zone, an overwhelming need to release early, a hideous need to overuse the forearms and hands to manipulate the golf club, and the strong tendency of having a badly timed golf swing.

    I like a wider forward swing arc. I think it is a necessity if you want to 'swing' the golf club (which is how a golf club is designed to be used) ... and if you want to 'swing' the golf club you better start it swinging from the very beginning of the downswing by pulling (propelling) the golf club longitudinally along the axis of the clubshaft in a circular arc (that means wide as opposed to narrow) to keep that imaginary flexible wire (as a replacement clubshaft) taught without a hint of slack.

    With a wider forward swing arc the clubhead's angle-of-ascent into the golf ball is shallow (meaning much better compression and spin loft) and the clubhead's directional angle-of-approach to the golf ball is down the target line. You don't need to make a purposeful 'shallowing' move when you have a wider forward swing arc, which is just another chance to upset the swinging motion. If you were attempting to start swinging a rock on the end of a string and were told to shallow the swing plane, don't you think merging that move into the early swinging action might upset the swing and might even cause the string to slacken and 'jerk'?

    Having a wide forward swing arc the clubhead will travel on a shallow approach like an airplane landing on a runway and that will direct the clubhead's energy more into the golf ball. If you are wondering about how a wide forward swing arc affects that mysterious feature called 'lag', then you are about to be served icing on your cake and a big scoop of your favorite Blue Bell ice cream too! A shallow and wide arc actually encourages a late release. Yep! You might have thought the exact opposite, but as Ben Hogan once said; "Reverse every natural instinct and do the opposite of what you are inclined to do, and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing."

     



    PS - Have you ever noticed the most defining characteristic of K.J. Choi's swing is his transition from the top of the backswing into the downswing. As he starts down, his arms and hands move outward in what is often called an over-the-top or "casting" motion. In reality, all he is doing is setting himself to swing down on a wide circular arc. Some [incorrectly in my opinion] think he is intentionally setting the club to swing on an outside-to-in path that will produce his preferred left-to-right ball flight, however there are much better ways to get a fade ball flight than to swing on an outside-to-in path, which would most likely cause a weak shot starting left with less compression due to an abnormally open clubface that would be required at impact.

    Posted:
    Post edited by Nail_It on

    Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

  • CarlitoCarlito Members  15WRX Points: 77Posts: 15 Bunkers
    Joined:  edited Jul 25, 2020 3:23pm #314


    Maybe the float loading drill is similar to the pickle jar anology?

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  • Nail_ItNail_It Members  160WRX Points: 128Posts: 160 Fairways
    Joined:  edited Jul 25, 2020 5:02pm #315

    Uh, no - not really. The two are really not associated at all.

    Float loading, in my view, is almost a distinct un-linking and then a re-linking of the club via the cocking of the wrists, which adds an additional (artificial) motion and timing factor to the swing.

    Posted:
    Post edited by Nail_It on

    Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

  • Nard_SNard_S Members  3952WRX Points: 905Handicap: 9Posts: 3,952 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #316

    This is a good drill & there's several good things in this. The idea of maintaining the flex of wrist & trail elbow into impact. The other is crunching angles and dropping chest to ball as a transitional move.. This is very significant and I continually fail to appreciate the power in this move. Was next to a guy last week at the range who pretty much swung like this. His #2i was good for 240 carry. Humbling. I continually struggle to simplify and get things as compact. When I do catch it in the bottle, pretty amazing how much easy power is at hand.

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  • Nail_ItNail_It Members  160WRX Points: 128Posts: 160 Fairways
    Joined:  edited Aug 1, 2020 7:28pm #317

    To Mark - who reached out via Private Message asking about using the 'short thumb' with the lead hand. (Hopefully this may help others.)

    For most people (but not necessarily all people mind you) using a short thumb with the lead hand will encourage the lead wrist to remain neutral to slightly bowed and easier to rotate or twist through impact. On the other hand, using a long thumb will oftentimes prompt the lead wrist to extend or bend, causing the golfer to flip.

    Give it a try with or without holding a club. Holding an imaginary golf club in your lead hand, [first] push your thumb fully outward (to make a 'long thumb') and look at how your wrist is shaped. Is it slightly cupped? Does it seem like it is easier to bend (flip) the wrist rather than to rotate or twist and bow the wrist? Now then, holding an imaginary golf club in your lead hand, pull your thumb fully inward (to make a 'short thumb') and look at how your wrist is shaped. Is it flat or slightly bowed. Does it seem like it is easier to rotate or twist and bow the wrist rather than to flip the wrist?

    Here's something very much related to think about. When you swing a golf club on a horizontal plane, most people (but not necessarily all people mind you) find that how their lead forearm and wrist naturally rotates and twists to be quite gratifying and very much to their liking...and they wish their lead forearm and wrist behaved the same when they made a swing on an inclined plane. However, when they make a swing on an inclined plane they always (for some crazy reason) tend to flip. Also, some people (but not necessarily all people mind you) seem to like having the ball slightly above their feet because their forearm/wrist rotation usually happens more naturally. What do these conditions have in common? The answer is rather simple, but often overlooked. When making a swing even slightly on a more horizontally plane most people (but not necessarily all people mind you) tend to have less ulnar deviation (the forearm and hand are more inline with one another instead of the hand being arched downward) in their lead wrist - and this naturally makes for a shorter lead thumb ... and this in-turn prompts the forearm and wrist to stay inline with one another and rotate or twist as a structured unit instead of the two becoming disconnected (uncoordinated) and causing a flip. Another similarly related tidbit is - when you choke down on the grip a little it tends to better align the lead forearm and hand which naturally pulls he lead thumb inward (shorter) a little bit, encouraging the forearm and wrist to rotate or twist as a connected unit.

    Sometimes the slightest change, something you would never think could make any real or meaningful difference, can make a very significant difference in how one swings a golf club. Lastly, one of my previous posts in this thread has a video of Shawn Clement demonstrating how the wrist action of a sound golf swing is like a baton twirl. Take a very close look at how the forearm, wrist and hand is aligned in terms of radial/ulnar deviation and how the thumb is in what would be considered a 'short thumb'.

    I hope this helps!

    Posted:
    Post edited by Nail_It on

    Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

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  • CarlitoCarlito Members  15WRX Points: 77Posts: 15 Bunkers
    Joined:  #318

    Thank you, i will give it a try.

    Posted:
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