From p6-p8 the trail arm is extending, supinating, then right before impact pronating. Of all the shoulder/ arm/ wrist joints it is the greatest source of power, see Nesbit/ Serrano work and power in golf swing.
Enjoy every sandwich.
Swinger vs hitter. I believe some of that TGM stuff. I've always believed I swung with my lead side (left) and hit from my trail side (right). I can do both but neither consistently. Right arm swinging never felt comfortable to me. Mike McNary, an O'Grady student, told me he was a "switter". He was a D-1 college pitcher and a very good athlete. I asked him what his intention was in his "endless belt" you tube video and he said it was straightening his right arm as fast as he could. One of the best swings I've ever seen from an aesthetics standpoint. Really interesting post Nail_It.
One thing to note, that release pattern is reliant on the golfer properly shallowing the shaft, pivoting correctly, and twisting shaft well before impact (ie his motorcycle move) such that the face is square by P6. The two release patterns in the OP seem largely more suited for people who don't do all of those other things. Ie he blames the "twist" release having more curve due to the high handle, when in reality that release is a byproduct of the handle being high in the first place while the face is too open IMO.
Monte has a bunch of good really old videos on this and I remember watching then back in the day not understanding the concept of a gradual release as a feel.
I stumbled on this last year with wedges. I’ve always been a good wedge player and streaky ballstriker. In the full swing I used to play with a really strong grip and kind of drag it through the bottom. With wedges I always played with a much less strong grip and could hit any shot that’s called for. I was messing around hitting 60 yard low draws off of hard pan and felt like the supination from the top gave me that perfect click every time. I tried it again in sloppy, wet conditions and same result. Tried it in the bunker, immediately better contact and a sound I hadn’t experienced before. Brought it into the full swing and found that it’s what I had been missing. I put in a lot of time on fundamentals don’t get me wrong. This wouldn’t be magic for someone with major issues in other areas of the swing, but it tied everything together for me.
FWIW, Hogan was right handed, not left handed. He debunked the lefty myth in an interview with George Pepper published in the September 1987 edition of Golf Magazine.
This was kind of what I was getting at earlier. The steep shaft in transition doesn't work with this. I've done the the steep shaft/back out/hip thrust for decades. When the shaft is steepening in transition you can bet the lead arm isn't supinating as much. Even so, with this new swing thought I am not actively thinking of shallowing. My hands are deeper in the backswing and I am not yanking on the shaft so by osmosis I am shallowing or NOT steepening. For me, I feel like I get a lot of things that you mention above namely shallowing, improved pivot, twisting shaft for free. YMMV but that's how it feels to me and I've never struck it better.
Interesting. Your old swing sounds like mine. Love your comment about "I tried it again in sloppy, wet conditions and same result". My last range session was the exact same scenario. Thinish wet lies would expose me everytime in the past. This time I was hitting them really well. Like I mentioned earlier, the light bulb for me was MORE supination at a slower rate. Changed everything for me. Sounds like you have discovered the same thing. Keep er goin!
Yeah, there is no 'only one way'.
Here is a video by Clay Ballard that promotes a light right hand grip pressure and explains (at least in his own golf swing) how the right arm only adds some help in the early downswing 'to help the club to get going' and the right hand should not attempt to add speed, and cites Vijay Singh and Phil Mickelson for how their trail hand is practically off the grip because it can't keep up with the fast moving lower part of the grip. He (Clay Ballard) promotes and teaches a swing principle by which his lead side (shoulder/arm) pulls upward (a.k.a. parametric acceleration) which in-turn causes the golf club to release (because the clubhead moves in the opposite direction of the handle movement) and the clubhead accelerates at such a very fast pace, for this reason holding onto the grip with the right hand (much less attempting to add speed or force) will actually slow down the swing speed.
This particular swing method is more in tune with a pure swing (e.g. swinging a rock on the end of a string) with centripetal/centrifugal forces performing its magic. (You will commonly see this swing method in young elite junior players because it can be performed by literally anyone regardless of strength.) The difference as I see it between this swing method (parametric acceleration) and one that uses the trail arm/hand for much of the swing's power and thrust seems to be that one uses centripetal force pulling against your body (lead shoulder/arm) in order to fling the clubhead outward, whereas using an abundance of trail arm to power the swing sends the clubhead momentum more directional toward the target. In other words, one method propels the weight in an orbit and the other propels the weight along a driven path...what I guess some people may call 'swinging' versus 'hitting'. Bottom line - the right arm/hand is used differently depending entirely on how you as a one-of-a-kind human being swing the golf club.
As a side note there used to be a PGA tour player in the 1970s named Larry Hinson, who had a withered left arm. He played right-handed and it was all he could do to hold onto the golf club much less supinate his lead arm or control his lead wrist. He had no problem keeping up with and competing with his fellow tour players. It just shows where there is a will, there is usually a way. And, it does not have to be done a particular way. As Arnie said, 'Swing your swing'...
Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...
As I said, I wasn't sure about Hogan. Thanks for the update.
An old friend of mine passed away last year was a long-time friend and regular playing partner of Ben Hogan for 20 years. He was a Life Member of the PGA of America, was on the Hogan staff and also on Ben Hogan Foundation’s Honorary/Advisory Board. He never mentioned, and I never asked, about which side was Hogan's dominant side. Boy, did he ever have some tales to tell about Mr. Hogan.
Below is a quote from a fella who was also very well acquainted with Mr. Hogan:
“When I describe a golf shot and gesture with one of my hands, it's always the right hand I gesture with. That's because golf is a right-handed game [for right-handers], not a left-handed game as some people believe. Hogan was emphatic about that. The right hand controls the position of the clubface, generates the speed, applies the touch, everything. All the left hand does is hold on to the club, and hopefully not break down on the downswing.”
Yeah well, I guess Mr. Hogan (and Ken Venturi too) never knew that his competitor Byron Nelson (holds the record of 11 straight consecutive tournament victories) was a lefty that played right-handed. And, he overlooked Johnny Miller and David Graham who are lefties that play right-handed. And Bob Charles is right-handed but plays left-handed, as does Phil Mickelson. Throw in a few more for good measure - Mike Weir, Greg Norman, Curtis Strange and Nick Price all played opposite their dominant side. Henny Bogan didn't know everything...
No doubt that there are many ways to get it done. Just trying to set the record straight on Hogan ... lots of misinformation and misunderstanding about him out there.
You said; "I've always believed I swung with my lead side (left) and hit from my trail side (right). I can do both but not consistently."
Acquiring a sound golf swing can really be a never-ending search for the overlooked trick where everything finally clicks and falls into place. It's kinda like going to a fictional golf swing store in an attempt to build the perfect golf swing. In this fictional store there's two barrels of golf swing methods and techniques to choose from. One barrel has all the good stuff, and the other barrel has all the bad stuff, but some of the good stuff has mistakenly been put into the bad barrel and vice-versa. Players like Rory McIlroy and Adam Scott rummaged through the barrels and got only good stuff, but players like Jim Furyk, Matt Wolff and Matt Kuchar left the golf swing store with some of the bad stuff. But, they all miraculously made it work somehow. They each have a different stature, and they each look very different when they swing. It's next to impossible, even under super slow-motion video to determine what their real differences are in terms of what truly makes their individual golf swings work so well. Do they power and control their swings using their right side, or their left side, or are they able to use both sides. Is one side more important than the other. Does it depend on which side is your dominant side. The truth of the matter is - there is no definitive answer for each individual. Here's a little short story about a topic we've been discussing - how a golf pro won over a thousand dollars one evening using a closet broom and a six pack of beer in a hotel room.
There was annual company meeting taking place in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina some years ago with about 150 people attending and there were two paid guest speakers. One of the guest speakers was a golf pro (who will remain nameless). The plan was for the attendees to have fun the next day doing something they enjoyed or doing something new. About half of the group didn't play golf so most of them went for a half-day chartered fishing trip out of Murrells Inlet as I recall. And the fellows that did play golf had tee times at one of the nicer Myrtle Beach area courses. The day of the meeting the guest speakers entertained the crowd in a nice banquet room and afterwards there was a nice dinner and drinks. Everybody really took a liking to the golf pro so he was invited to join the others in one of the large hotel suites dedicated as the social gathering spot for more drinks, laughs and conversation.
Up on the countertop in the hotel suite were bottles of liquor, mixers, beer, peanuts, pretzels and napkins. After enjoying one another's company for an hour or so the golf pro got up and walked over to the room's utility closet and retrieved a straw broom and walked over and placed it flat on the floor. He then picked up a full six-pack of beer from the countertop and placed it on top of the broom near where the bristles join the handle. He then went over to one of the golf bags sitting in the corner and pulled out the driver and made a measurement mark on the broom handle at driver's length from the far side of the six-pack. Everyone in the room was very interested in what the golf pro was doing. Then the pro grinned and said something like 'I know you boys bet each other when you play golf. Does anyone want to bet me that I can't lift that broom and six-pack of beer off the floor using only one hand, gripping the broom handle at the same distance as a driver?'
Everybody looked at the broom and that heavy six-pack of beer and wondered what the trick was. The pro said; 'I'll let anyone here give it a try before I try to do it.' Five or 6 of the younger and stronger guys tried to lift the broom and beer, but all they could do was lift the broom handle but the broom and beer didn't budge. One guy said it was impossible to do, and the others all agreed. Still baffled by what kind of trick the golf pro was going to pull off - one guy that had tried to lift it (a former college football player about 6' 4" with huge arms the size of most people's thighs) said; 'I'll bet you a hundred dollars you can't lift that entire broom with the six-pack on top of it off the floor if you grip the broom handle where you marked it'. The pro's eyes got large like he had been challenged to do something he might not be able to pull off. That's when the others started making their bets. The golf pro asked if the guys that had tried to lift it used their dominant arm and they all said yes. Then the pro said; 'I'll attempt to lift the broom and beer with my non-dominate left arm.' The golf pro placed his left hand on the broom handle in a strong golf grip position with his thumb toward the bottom of the handle and a cup (extension) in his left wrist. He slowly supinated his left forearm as his left wrist became flat, and the broom and six-pack lifted completely off the floor a few inches...and he held it for a couple of seconds. Everyone was awestruck!
The golf pro undoubtedly had a very strong left forearm that he had managed to acquire from practicing and playing a lot of golf, and he had obviously performed this 'trick' many times before. The takeaway from this story is - quite often the trick is really more about knowing the proper technique of how something is done. In this case the technique was to supinate the forearm which flattened the wrist instead of trying to lift straight up with the arm and wrist. The golf pro was invited to play with the group the next morning as a guest of the company. He played with three of the low handicap players. The pro shot 62 with a double-bogey. He had to put a new ball into play every two or three holes because his golf ball's cover was ripped to shreds from him compressing the ball with his irons.
This guy (Eric Cogorno) is really good at communicating what he's teaching. He's got a great demeanor and is a wonderful orator.
Yes he is. Great story btw.
I read and watch a lot of different golf instruction online. I am awestruck at how few of them talk about this. Eric is part of the small minority that do. I see it dismissed by a lot of other
instructors as a manipulation or hard to time(I did too for years, decades now). Once trained correctly with repetition it's anything but those things. At least that's how I feel.
For years I've searched for that "overlooked trick" myself but in my heart of hearts I knew I wasn't doin something fundamental and obvious but I couldn't put my finger on it.
I could fake a good looking swing, even some days break 80 with a decent putting rd but I couldn't compress that ball to save my life. I would watch the tour guys swing it and wonder
how they got to that "non-convoluted", effortless finish. It sure wasn't from trying hold on to anything like I was that's for sure.
That was 2 years ago. Malaska was saying exactly the same at that time. Now look at this recent video. Malaska is saying you should NOT use the left wrist like that! Watch at the 14:00 mark. Hahaha. What to do? Asking for a friend.
The video I posted (from Eric Cogorno) is discussing supination of the left forearm/wrist. The video you posted (from Mike Malaska) is discussing the action of the right arm/wrist. Thus, I don't understand your comparison when one is discussing the left forearm/wrist and the other is discussing the right arm/wrist.
As an aside, I do not like the right arm/wrist action that Mike Malaska appears to be demonstrating in the video you posted. In my opinion what Mike Malaska is demonstrating with his right wrist action flapping about is oftentimes at the heart of what is wrong with most amateurs' golf swings. What he is demonstrating reminds me of the tail of a large mouth bass flapping back and forth.
The following may be the most important and game-changing post many golfers read. I'll attempt to explain something that is a hidden gem and rarely ever written about or discussed. Like so many things, it's all in the technique.
The right wrist needs to be bent-back (extension), cocked or hinged up (radial deviation) and twisted. This twisted condition is: twisted counterclockwise if your arm is extended in front of you or twisted to the left if you were holding an umbrella or twisted so your wrist veins point away from you). Only when the right forearm and wrist are under those three conditions (bent-back, hinged & twisted) is the right hand distinctly and powerfully loaded and ready to unload like a powerful rubber band that's been pulled back to the max. The process of bending, hinging and twisting the right wrist happens during the backswing and needs to be in-place at the top. In my opinion if you are missing any [one] of these three elements the right forearm and wrist becomes far more likely to be damaging than a powerful benefit...and believe me - when the right forearm and wrist works as it should, it is a huge benefit! It's just a matter sustaining all three of these conditions until it is time to release...and to release all you have to do is [just] one thing - just uncock. When you uncock or unhinge (ulnar deviation) the bent-back, hinged and twisted right wrist something very magical happens! The moment you start uncocking the right wrist the forearm and wrist will naturally (without any muscular action) start to swivel/pivot/twirl (some may say that it rolls) through the impact zone. Through impact the right wrist becomes only slightly bent-back from its once fully bent-back condition and is now unhinged (ulnar deviation) as it literally swivels or twirls solidly without flipping (flexion). There is no flapping or flipping of the right wrist, which is probably the single biggest problem most amateurs have in their golf swings. Try it! You don't even need a club to experience how it works. Bend, cock and twist, then when it's time to release around waist level just uncock (unhinge) and BINGO, you have a perfect right forearm and wrist action through the impact zone. What's also magical about this rarely discussed technique is that you can hit as hard as you want with your right hand (i.e. Ben Hogan - wish for three right hands). No more flipping and flapping. As they say (e.g. my broom and six-pack short story about supination in a previous post above), it's all in the technique. Enjoy!!!
The issue with Malaska's stance is he is basically saying if you use supination to square the face, that it's wide open at P6, thus it will be inconsistent. The really good players who's release is a mixture of supination and ulnar deviation, well most of them have the face square to the path by P6 via flexion of the lead wrist (just like what Cogorno was teaching prior). Not a lot of good players internally rotate the trail shoulder in transition like he is advocating as well.
"The right wrist needs to be bent-back (extension), cocked or hinged up (radial deviation) and twisted (pronated)."
Shouldn't that be "twisted (supinated)"? Palm UP??? In the "top of backswing" position I mean.
Malaska was a victim of being taught that the forearms roll through release - yes that was taught and certainly still is - that is not the movement of the forearms in elite swings. In the forearm roll the lead forearm supinates and the trail forearm pronates through release - in elite golfers both forearms supinate through release until just before impact when the trail forearm begins to pronate - there is no "rolling" of the forearms. So yes, can definitely see how Malaska got his swing screwed up if he was not doing that before but was coached into the move.
Tyler Ferrell gave a talk at the 2018 WGFS on arm movement of elite golfers (unfortunately it is only on his pay site not his youtube) and went through the motion of both elite golfers (used elkington and waite) and higher cap golfers via 3D graphs - U/D, pro/sup, and flex/ext of each individual arm through release which Tyler defines as p5.5 through p8. I snapped Waite's combined graphs on the lead and trail arm - the video itself is about an hour and has tons of information and if I could I would post it here - otherwise if not a member one can take a free 7 day trial and view this video as well as hundreds of others.
One note is that the shoulders can have a big influence on how the elbows etc work - one example Tyler gives is that if the lead shoulder goes external too early then supination of the lead arm becomes limited.
It's also important to have the ability to disassociate the elbow from the shoulders.
Side note: unless you are dead the only way you move your body is through muscular action. You may "feel" you aren't but we humans don't move involuntary unless you are talking about some type of disorder or autonomic nervous system.
The right wrist needs to be bent-back (extension), cocked or hinged up (radial deviation) and twisted (pronated). Only when the right forearm and wrist are under those three conditions (bent-back, hinged & twisted) is the right hand distinctly and powerfully loaded and ready to unload like a powerful rubber band that's been pulled back to the max. The process of bending, hinging and twisting the right wrist happens during the backswing and needs to be in-place at the top. In my opinion if you are missing any [one] of these three elements the right forearm and wrist becomes far more likely to be damaging than a powerful benefit...and believe me - when the right forearm and wrist works as it should, it is a huge benefit! It's just a matter sustaining all three of these conditions until it is time to release...and to release all you have to do is [just] one thing - just uncock. When you uncock or unhinge (ulnar deviation) the bent-back, hinged and twisted right wrist something very magical happens! The moment you start uncocking the right wrist the forearm and wrist will naturally (without any muscular action) start to swivel/pivot/twirl (some may say that it rolls) through the impact zone. Through impact the right wrist becomes only slightly bent-back from its once fully bent-back condition and is now unhinged (ulnar deviation) as it literally swivels or twirls solidly without flipping (flexion). There is no flapping or flipping of the right wrist, which is probably the single biggest problem most amateurs have in their golf swings. Try it! You don't even need a club to experience how it works. Bend, cock and twist, then when it's time to release around waist level just uncock (unhinge) and BINGO, you have a perfect right forearm and wrist action through the impact zone. What's also magical about this rarely discussed technique is that you can hit as hard as you want with your right hand (i.e. Ben Hogan - wish for three right hands). No more flipping and flapping. As they say (e.g. my broom and six-pack short story about supination in a previous post above), it's all in the technique. Enjoy!!!
Honestly - have not agreed with much of what @Nail_It has posted. But this in my opinion is the thing most guys miss when trying to do the Monte throw it behind you or motorcycle move. In my opinion, this is where "pull the handle" came from too. It's just misinterpreted by us. To me, it feels like pulling the handle honestly. Once you setup wrists properly as @Nail_It described - you are now in a position where you can create some kind of natural force / resistance in your wrists by doing Monte's throw it behind you. If done correctly, it's a super cool feeling. It will naturally do all the things you trying to do into and after impact. It squares the club into impact and starts rotating it closed after impact, without any effort. Your wrists don't break and your forearms will rotate the right amount. The last time I do anything at all in the golf swing is around between p5-p6. From there I'm into my finish. There is no twisting, squaring, rotating or anything like that actively into the hitting zone.
Obviously there's some variations in there, it's not one size fits all. Grip and other things could influence exactly how much flexion each of us feels / gets at the top. But I have to say that at what @Nail_It describes here, is really close to what I feel too and it was a game changer for me. Only difference, I don't focus on just the right wrist. My thought was the left wrist and right wrist are together. What one does, causes the other to react. So when I try to get in positions, I always looked at them together as one unit. But it honestly it's the same thing. Just different feels and ways to look at it.
@vwoody - you're correct - right wrist supinated at top. I think he just got it mixed up on accident.
Trail wrist pronated at the top - if not and depending on degree then one will look laid off or very laid off. See Waite's trail arm graph I posted
You’re right ... I was going to point that out earlier but didn’t want Nail_It to think I was picking on him. 😂 Glad wagolfer7 chimed in too.
The fella below has a mostly pronated right forearm at P4 ... he was a great player but not many are in that position at the top. Even if he adds max right wrist **** and extension, the clubhead will still be pointing across the target line.
It just requires such a big reversal move in transition!
Saying supinated only is not correct. DJ and Brooks are pretty supinated. But many are slightly pronated or supinated from a visual perspective.
I was more agreeing with @Nail_It of his explanation of the feeling and result of using the wrists from top into p5-p6. I think there's a wide range of ways you can positions yourself on top to accomplish the same feeling. Not to mention grip and other things would factor into it as well.
It took me a long time of trying different wrist sets and moves, until I finally felt what he's describing. I have no idea how to accurately explain it. It's a pure feel move for me. But there's some kind of natural force that I feel that just made things way easier for me.
Actually, whether the 'twist' is a pronation or a supination [I think] depends on how the arm and wrist is oriented when it is twisted...or so I thought. It's funny because as I was trying to figure out how I was going to explain which way the right wrist is twisted I actually extended my arm straight out in front of me and proceeded to bend-back the wrist, hinge it up then twist the wrist counterclockwise - that twisting put my palm (wrist veins) pointed downward - so I decided since my palm was facing downward it is supinated. I guess I was wrong - sorry 'bout that! As some of you have mentioned - if the right elbow is folded and the forearm is in a vertical position (more like imitating a top of the backswing position) then the 'twist' (I guess) is more accurately defined as pronation. Sorry for the confusion. [Note: I will edit my post and better explain/define what I meant.] Thanks for those of you pointing this out!
Correct, when the right forearm is vertical the wrist is twisted whereby the palm is facing upward. I edited my post to correct my description. Thanks!
wagolfer7 - I see that you are a +2 handicap golfer. I am very glad that you chimed in. I appreciate that. Your explanation helps others to better understand this rather hard to explain technique. It can be a game-changer as you know.
Something else this technique helps correct is for both hands to work in unison, directing the forces and energy in the same direction as opposed to one hand fighting the other. When the hands fight each other the golfer usually ends up going soft (passive) with the 'offending hand', which in most cases is the dominate or right hand. They are missing out on a lot of power and control.
Here's a good test to determine if one hand is fighting what the other hand is doing. The test can actually be done without a golf club. Put a pencil (or even better put an alignment stick or old golf shaft with no clubhead) in each hand, and separate the hands about 6 inches apart so whatever you are using (pencils/sticks/shafts) are parallel to one another. Take a very slow, smooth backswing to the top and then very slowly and smoothly come down, representing a slow-motion downswing. Most amateurs will find that the sticks will naturally stay parallel in the backswing and at the top, but somewhere around waist level in the downswing the right hand wants to move its stick outward. The right hand is almost always the offender, the renegade. When this happens in a real golf swing it causes pure disaster. One hand is going astray and if it is the stronger hand it will try to overpower the other hand. That's bad! When both hands work together you have 100% efficiency, but when one hand is fighting the other hand and not helping or adding to the charge then the efficiency drops drastically to near rock-bottom. Why is this important to know? Because the bent-back, cocked-up and twisted right forearm/wrist technique will almost surely be the remedy for that ineffective, damaging situation. The bent-back/cocked/twisted technique I described allows you to align the direction of the forces and energy of both hands (both sides) to work perfectly together. This allows the additive forces and energy to reach maximum and direct that energy precisely to the desired pinpoint path and location.
If you (not you wagolfer7) are lacking the clubhead speed you think you should have, or you can't rid yourself of coming over-the-top, or you can't compress the ball to the max, or you can't stop flipping, or you can't hit the precise pinpoint sweet spot on the clubface...then you likely have one hand that is not directing the forces and energy in the proper direction when it comes to delivering the club from a point around waist high.
Ugh, that image reminds me of Matt Wolff's golf swing...but he somehow makes it work!
No worries. Thanks for the great info
I'm not following. The right forearm is pronated at top of backswing. Nail_it has it correct.
Here is Tyler from his backswing arms step by step video
At top with pronation (rotating palm down)
Here is with no pronation.
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