How deep should the hands be? EE problem

 j8979 ·  
j8979j8979 Members  101WRX Points: 34Posts: 101 Fairways
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I’ve been working on getting my hands deeper earlier in the backswing to prevent a laid off position at the top. But lately I’ve been feeling “stuck” (left arm pinned on chest) and I’m wondering whether it’s to do with really deep hands on the takeaway (maybe I’ve taken it too far?). As a result of this I get some early extension at impact which I think is causing my pull shot and the occasional shank.



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  • trileriantrilerian Members  516WRX Points: 99Handicap: 13.1Posts: 516 Golden Tee
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    Personally, I think your club face is too open at the top, and your slight ee is due to you rotating the face closed at the bottom. You have a nice squat to start the swing and you lay down the shaft in transition, which is needed from your top of back swing.

    I think it is a nice swing and would guess you hit the ball decently well. Some others will be able to chime in with much better advice. Good luck and enjoy!

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  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 IowaClubWRX  21491WRX Points: 5,511Posts: 21,491 ClubWRX
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    I'm no coach, and I'm sure someone will chime in that knows, but I'm not seeing the EE, so I'll be paying attention just to get educated so I know what it looks like if it is there. ;-) Takeaway kind of inside, and the way that right leg seems to be moving back and pressure maybe still in your left heel some (?) maybe not getting a true hip turn? Again, don't read this, lol, I'm just making notes that may be irrelevant for educational purposes later.

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  • hurley999shurley999s Members  765WRX Points: 368Posts: 765 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited May 23, 2020 12:38pm #4

    You have a pretty nice move overall. Agree with above - face does look open at top and p6 (toe up). Also on takeaway, club does get a touch inside the hands (p3). This could be just this swing and it’s not much, so not too concerning because you’re not whipping it inside with forearm role.

    to me, it looks like you have good depth with arms/hands, but...

    One additional thing i noticed because it can be a bad habit for me that creeps in too - it “looks like” (not positive without FO view) you have a bit of arm overrun at the top. I tend to do this when trying for more depth, and pull the arms across the body.

    If you freeze the frame when your left arm is covering/in line with your shoulders, to me that looks like it should be the top of your swing because your shoulders stop turning there. If that’s the case, it can throw you off just enough to get things out of sync.

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  • Redjeep83Redjeep83 Members  6007WRX Points: 581Posts: 6,007 Titanium Tees
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    It’s whatever the player likes or needs, no set rules. You are in the extreme end of hands in on takeaway though.

    Your hitting pulls and shanks because of how much your laying the shaft down in downswing. You want some of the shaft of the shaft laying down in transition but you are over doing it. People don’t think about this, they only think laying the shaft down in transition is good but it’s causing your shaft to kick out on downswing and swing out to in with closed face.

    My advice, don’t lay it off so much on downswing and should help with plane on downswing.

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  • j8979j8979 Members  101WRX Points: 34Posts: 101 Fairways
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    Thanks for your comment. Have you heard of any drills to help this? I don’t actively lay it off to start the downswing, it just happens without thinking about it.

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  • Redjeep83Redjeep83 Members  6007WRX Points: 581Posts: 6,007 Titanium Tees
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    Not off top of my head, think the old just do it might apply. Feel the shaft is more upright starting downswing, more up and down vertical plane on downswing instead of around

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  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers  18985WRX Points: 1,650Posts: 18,985 Titanium Tees
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    Pelvis is s little out of position and a little flat because lead knee didn’t come out enough.



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  • johnrobisonjohnrobison In endless pursuit of P6 The OCMembers  761WRX Points: 114Handicap: 6ishPosts: 761 Golden Tee
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    I think if you keep your left shoulder down longer and close the face more by P5, you'll be able to rotate better, using the ground, and keep in flexion longer. With the left shoulder going up and the open face, you're having to extend and flip.

    WRT the takeaway, typically you would see a player's hands getting deeper from P3 to P4, whereas your hands not only don't get deeper, they actually get closer to the target line from P3 to P4, largely due to how early you pull them inside.

    Disclaimer: I'm a student, myself, so take my opinions for whatever that makes them worth.

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  • Red4282Red4282 Members  890WRX Points: 363Posts: 890 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited May 23, 2020 3:19pm #10

    In my opinion, your rotation stalls out right before impact, your right elbow extends, and the slight ee is a natural move to make room so you dont fat it. Lots of drills out there but, one that comes to mind is gankas where he just throws a ball straight down the ground with the trail arm as opposed to down the line (delaying that trail arm extension)

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  • AngryKoreanManAngryKoreanMan Members  19WRX Points: 15Posts: 19 Bunkers
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    I had same issue with you so I know how to fix.

    Try to separate chin and shoulder as downswing starts.

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  • glkglk send it in jerome Kodak, Tn/Chucktown, Sc via Chicago & BurghMembers  4135WRX Points: 719Posts: 4,135 Titanium Tees
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    Just add that getting hands that far inside is going to make partial shots and short game difficult.

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    Enjoy every sandwich.

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  • dvq9654dvq9654 Los AngelesMembers  43WRX Points: 56Handicap: 2.1Posts: 43 Bunkers
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    Honestly, I wouldn’t listen to most these posts. Listen to Monte. Your club face is aligned with your lead arm at top (i.e. not open) and at P6 you may be very slightly open, but it looks like your face is pretty close to your spine angle. I’d work on your pivot more than focus on your club face.

    Your take away may be somewhat inside, but it’s pretty darn close to what iteach’s drills espouse, so not sure it’s wildly off.

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  • Redjeep83Redjeep83 Members  6007WRX Points: 581Posts: 6,007 Titanium Tees
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    You can tell he learns from Gankas, got a lot of his stuff going in his backswing. Also, that lead knee not coming out much is what Gankas teaches to a lot of guys. He will tell you to extend that lead knee more and basically stand up more with shoulder tilt so that it will promote you to squat down in the downswing. Not saying I agree with either way, just explaining probably why this guy is doing that.

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  • Redjeep83Redjeep83 Members  6007WRX Points: 581Posts: 6,007 Titanium Tees
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    per George Gankas, so who to listen to?

    "I want your lft knee to extend while rotating hips so your hips are level in backswing. Extending lft knee will help get you in a better position at top of swing so you can get some ground pressure in downswing for power and club face stability"

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  • RichieHuntRichieHunt Members  4060WRX Points: 752Posts: 4,060 Titanium Tees
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    This isn't true unless he's working with a long drive competitor or somebody desperately wanting distance.


    Last year when I went to him for a lesson in-person, the first thing he told me was that my left knee wasn't flexed enough at the top of the swing and that is 'okay' for some long drive competitors that he teaches, but other than that he wouldn't teach that to anybody. In fact, he illustrated a checkpoint that at the top of the swing I should be able to stop and reach with my left hand and touch the top of the left knee.


    GG also pointed out that not getting the left knee in more flexion as shown above does hurt the ability to pivot in the backswing and thus not being able to properly use the ground in transition to pivot thru.


    I think that this is the problem with the OP is having that's causing the EE.


    He just looks shallow because he pronates the left forearm in transition big-time. But I see him still as dropping the arms down too much and he's not able to rotate in the downswing because he can't use the ground. By about p5 to p5.5 he's steeping the shaft a bit and all of that is causing him to not be able to rotate his upper body and EE.


    His hands are a hair shallow by GG's standards, but that would be corrected with a better backswing pivot.




    RH

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  • Redjeep83Redjeep83 Members  6007WRX Points: 581Posts: 6,007 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited May 25, 2020 9:00pm #17

    so I'm not doubting he taught you that but I have seen him teach multiple people (not long drive competitors) to extend their left knee and stand more upright with shoulder tilt on the backswing, me included and I never asked him for more distance or need any. I saw him teach it many times and then when I took an online lesson from him, he gave me those exact words I posted below. I had seen him teach it and his students do it just like OP is doing so I was familiar with it when he described what he wanted me to do. I had a normal amount of lead knee flex in the videos I sent him for a lesson.

    Per Gankas

    "I want your lft knee to extend while rotating hips so your hips are level in backswing. Extending lft knee will help get you in a better position at top of swing so you can get some ground pressure in downswing for power and club face stability"

    The OP does also regain flex in his lead knee on downswing like Gankas prescribes with that move.

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  • DumpedunderDumpedunder Members  42WRX Points: 25Posts: 42 Bunkers
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    Yeah, he needs lead side lateral bend in the backswing. This will immediately cause him to get a hair more rotation in the hips, which will bring the left knee out more (as Monte described). Then he flexes just a hair at the top or in transition to get a tad more club face control. He won’t stand up, because there’s no need to.

    He has perfect depth in the arms. Maybe a hair more on shoulder plane with the lead arm, but the little bit of added rotation due to lead side bend would fix that.

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  • DumpedunderDumpedunder Members  42WRX Points: 25Posts: 42 Bunkers
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    Dude, you’re close to doing some bad **** things with your golf swing. You probably already hit some amazing shots.

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  • Redjeep83Redjeep83 Members  6007WRX Points: 581Posts: 6,007 Titanium Tees
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    For the record as some some who tried what OP is doing by getting tall to squat down per Gankas, I would agree it would be better do get some more lead knee flex in backswing. The way Gankas taught me was a little too up and down for my taste and my miss was thin by getting so tall on backswing. Needed good timing with the squat.

    Now do I think by adding some lead knee flex will fix all his downswing issues, no but I do think it will help some. He has some funky stuff going on with that pronated lead arm on downswing that will need more attention

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  • DumpedunderDumpedunder Members  42WRX Points: 25Posts: 42 Bunkers
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    Now that I really slowed it down, his problem is his squaring mechanism. He is wide open coming into the ball. He’d rotate like a tour pro if he had permission from his face to do so.

    If he flexed the lead wrist at the top, his face would close down, and he’d smoke the ball. He’d hit a ton of hooks until he learned a proper swing bottom. Gankas’ stick drill (under and over) would fix the bottom once he learned to flex the wrist. From there he’s set to go. Just a little more lateral bend in the backswing to deepen the turn.

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  • RichieHuntRichieHunt Members  4060WRX Points: 752Posts: 4,060 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited May 26, 2020 7:01pm #22

    Fair enough.


    I do believe that GG would work on the knee flex issue if he was working with him because the OP has very similar things going on that I had going on.


    The OP hasn't used the ground properly in the downswing (with accordance to the GG pivot).


    One thing GG preaches is the bucket drill (putting a range bucket in between your legs at the top of the swing and then dropping the bucket in transition).


    GG also wants golfers to squat with the right side of their body (clear with the left side, squat with the right) into transition.


    This will get the right hip pocket moving outward towards the ball in transition. At P5 the hips should be square. The OP's hips at p5 are slightly closed and he just hasn't squatted with his right side. I should know because I tend to get a very similar look.



    If you do the bucket drill as GG prescribes, there is a space formed between your legs. It almost looks like a diamond. One of the things GG will teach golfers is to 'rotate the diamond' into impact. You should be able to see the diamond at impact.

    This pic of Hogan sorta illustrates it. You can't see a clear diamond shape because he has some baggier pants, but you should get the idea. Notice the right knee flexion and right side 'squat'.



    Compare that to the OP



    There are so many ways to do it, but if he's trying to execute GG's pivot he's not doing it correctly. He doesn't have enough turn of his pelvis, femurs and trunk in the backswing with the right amount of bend/tilt. And he ends up letting the arms/hands drop too early combined with not being able to use the ground enough to power his pivot thru the ball




    RH

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  • chigolfer1chigolfer1 Members  1256WRX Points: 309Posts: 1,256 Platinum Tees
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    Where did the OP say he's working with and/or taking concepts from GG?

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  • Redjeep83Redjeep83 Members  6007WRX Points: 581Posts: 6,007 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited May 27, 2020 8:01pm #24

    never said he did, I said he has alot of GG moves in the backswing.

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  • chigolfer1chigolfer1 Members  1256WRX Points: 309Posts: 1,256 Platinum Tees
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    Actually, you said "you can tell he learns from Gankes."

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  • Redjeep83Redjeep83 Members  6007WRX Points: 581Posts: 6,007 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited May 27, 2020 10:37pm #26

    ok?

    ”You can tell he learns from Gankas, got a lot of his stuff going in his backswing”

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  • chigolfer1chigolfer1 Members  1256WRX Points: 309Posts: 1,256 Platinum Tees
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    you just said you never said he takes concepts from Gankes after saying "you can tell he learns from "Gankes."

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  • Redjeep83Redjeep83 Members  6007WRX Points: 581Posts: 6,007 Titanium Tees
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    i think you should go back to your thread

    your quote

    “My question is probably for higher handicapers like myself who, despite lots of lessons from great instructors”


    I said as an observation you can tell he has learned from Gankas because of his backswing. I never said he worked with Gankas as a fact. Simple observation.

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  • Redjeep83Redjeep83 Members  6007WRX Points: 581Posts: 6,007 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited May 27, 2020 10:49pm #29

    And it’s “Gankas” not “gankes”

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