Went to heavier grips, how much lead tape?

So I put TV midsize plus 4 on my 7 and driver last fall, and after loving the feels, swapped the whole bag over during off season. Now finally getting going with this late start, and I'm really sucking with my irons. I'm certainly not blaming the gear in any way as my irons are likely my weakest part of my game. But I did go to grips that are 14 grams heavier. Some reading states that for every 4 grams of additional grip weight, you drop 1 SW point. Now does that formula reverse? How much weight would I add to the head to find my original SW?

Really been turning them over and hitting big draws which I kinda hoped would be partially aided by the larger diam grips but so far not working lol. I aim at the pin I draw it 20 yards left of the green, next hole I aim right edge of the green and hit it dead straight on that line. So 100% need to dial things in through practice, I just figured returning to my original SW might help me get some familiar feelings back.

Thanks for any help or advice guys.

The formulas really are not intended to be used in this context. The swing weight scale and the swing weight concept was never intended to be used to manage feel in the context of a grip weight change. So don't pick an amount based on the grip weight, only pick an amount based on how they feel when you hit them. Take your lead tape and go to the range. Start with no added tape and hit balls. Add the tape incrementally and pick the final amount based on what feels best and gives the best results.

Sorry one more thing. After you do that with one club (mid iron), then you can go back and use the swing weight scale to get the other clubs to match the one you did your testing on.

Or better yet, do the test with the PW and then the longest iron. Then take those two back to the swing weight scale and use the resulting slope to adjust the clubs in between.

OK sounds good I will do that. Is that a process for each iron individually? Or if I come to the conclusion hitting my 7 that lets say 5 grams of tape is ideal, I would just add the 5 grams to each club?

^^ Got it, thanks Stuart. I guess due to length differences the exact amount may vary to achieve a uniform SW thru the set.

Exactly, I would not assume the same amount of tape is needed. I found a few outliers when I checked SW on all my sets so definitely worth checking.

The swingweight change due to new grips isn't likely the issue, and adding lead tape to the heads probably won't make them feel like they did before. The dynamic headweight feel in the swing isn't drastically changed by changing the grip end of things. So if you add head weight with lead tape, they will feel "head heavier" than they did before, even though the swingweight may be the same or lower. It is possible that your unconscious reaction to the change in the total weight of the club, which is affected by the grip change, has caused you to change how you swing. Adding weight to the head probably won't help in that case either. The simplest test would be to put one or two of the old grips back on and see how your swing, and your misses, are affected.

You no more need to add lead tape to your club heads after adding heavier grips than you would have had you worn a nice sized ring on one of your fingers instead of switching the grips to heavier grips. You wouldn't go add lead tape to your clubhead to change how things felt depending on whether or not you were wearing a ring on your finger, would you?

I don't wear rings lol, but no I would not. I just thought grips were a part of club builds, and therefore accounted for the overall balance of the club. In my mind I was thinking I'd basically "counterbalanced" the clubs by adding weight to the handle end. I think I'll do some range sesh lead tape tinkering, because there is merit in achieving a desired feel. Like I said originally I'm certainly not blaming the clubs for the results of my shots, I just didn't want to be negatively affecting the feel.

Stuart said the most here, the SW scale has its limitations, and we CANT use it to "reset" the balance relationship between head grip or shaft if we change length, Shaft weight, Shaft balance point or Grip weight. I does not matter how hard we try, this instrument is helpless in all those situations, and if we dont know that, and think it can guide us right, we want make it.....

The SW scale can be used to match feel of head weight or resistance from a club thats already tuned up and works like we want it, so another club in a set, like a set of irons gets the same feel. Thats the main purpose with it, and we CANT just "shoot for a value" like the standard range from D1-D3 for irons. Feel of head weight is strictly personal, so all attempts to "reset" a original SW value is plain out stupid, because we are now shooting for a value we have no clue if is the right one for us.

Some "grooved players" might insist..."i know what SW value that works for me"....SORRY YOU DONT, unless you talk a specific club in the bag, but as soon as we talk "one of the other clubs", you are wrong, because the SW system simply dont work like that, so anyone who say "D3 is what i need to make it work" has been fooling themselves for such a long time they think its right but it aint.

The SW scale itself saw the day of light in 1934. We dont really know what they was up to. MOI matching was known back then too, but this is the age before the microprocessor and Excel or Lotus Spreadsheets, so the math behind made it to complicated. We like to think that the SW scale was a attempt to make a mechanical short cut to MOI, but after the digital MOI scales came to the marked in 2003, we could clearly see a "pattern" who rocks with the idea that SW was a short cut to actual MOI.

When we compare a MOI matched set with a classic SW matched set, the MOI set will measured on the SW scale look like its "progressive". SW value is NOT the same for any clubs in the set, but has a progression ratio of 1.33 SWP pr inch play length, or 2/3 (0.66) SWP between clubs in a standard set.

That tells us that the actual resistance is NOT the same from club to club in a SW matched set of irons, actual resistance to swing it follows play length, so a #3 iron of D3 makes a need for more use of power than a #9 iron in the same set at D3...Maybe thats how golf clubs was played in the early 1930...more use of power the longer club we used, or simply the longer we want to move the ball.

SW vs MOI simply becomes a question of "How to you swing your clubs"? The same swing and use of power for all? then MOI is the right choice for you, but if you feel its natural to give the long irons more power than the short, you should have a set with progressive higher resistance as you go longer, the question is then "how much progression"....we have 14 options from MOI to SW...so its NOT one or the other, but 12 options in-between them, all with some progression to resistance, the question is how much. (Thats what Stuart mention, when he said we can tune up the longest and the shortest, and draw a line or slope between them)

Knowing this should help you to understand than when we mess with grip weight, shaft weight, shaft balance point of grip weight, the instrument can no longer help us, we are back to blank sheets and have to go by what feels and works right, without thinking of SW values at all during that tune up. When done, we have a club that works, NOW is the time for that instrument so we can make the other clubs to be like that "favorite club"....

ALL other attempts in using the SW scale to build clubs WILL FAIL, the scale is NOT able to help you, and ill give you all a practical example of that. Forget this SW numbers for second, and see the club as 3 components who as a sum gives THIS CLUB its "Balance" AND parameter 4, the clubs TOTAL weight.

EXAMPLES. - a #6 iron with "standard specs" and DG shafts.

Grip weight - 50 grams

Grip tape - 2 grams

Net cut shaft weight - 121 gramsSUM GRIP AND SHAFT = 173 grams

Head weight - 261

Ferrule and epoxy - 2 gramsSUM HEAD WEIGHT = 263 GramsTOTAL WGT = 436 grams

Now we can start to play with this numbers to see how much of it thats Head weight vs the rest...

263 grams head wight/ 436 grams total wgt = Head weight is 60.33% of Total weight for this #6 iron...

Now lets change grip weight and lets see what happens...

We move from a 50 gram std grip to a 60 gram MID size

Grip and shaft side moves 10 grams to 183 grams, and total goes up 10 grams to 446 grams

Head weight 263 / Total 446 vgt = Head weight is now 58.96%....

Now lets use the SW scale to "reset" that SW value. 5 grams grip side = 1 SWP, so using this MID size grip returned a SW value 2 SWP lower than where we came from.

We need 4.14 grams added to the head to gain back 2 SWP, so now HEAD side goes up from 263 to 267 grams, / total that goes up to 450 grams 59.33 % head weight.

With standard grip, head side was 60.33%, and even if we tried to use the SW scale to reset balance, it sent us to 59.33% as head weight.....

So the instrument CANT be use to reset balance, it was never designed for that task, so dont even try it, it WANT work.

We can NOT use the factor 60.33% head weight either. because we are no longer talking about the same club, we are changing TOTAL weight, and that means "all bets are off" and the values we had is simply "no longer valid" for the actual club. We are back to blank sheets, with "trial and error" where we add or remove head weight without even looking on numbers. When we have found what works the best for us, NOW is the time to use the SW scale NOT before.

So the 2 most common situation of wrong use of the SW scale is when we change play length, (like going shorter on a driver), or when we change grip weight. The SW scale is useless in both those scenarios, and anyone who tells you anything else, simply dont know what he is talking about.

That means "how much weight to reset" is a question that CANT be answered, we have to do some trial and error to find what works, and there is NO short cuts to that, NONE....

^Ok, that's a lot to take in haha, but I appreciate it because I like to learn as much as I can about things I'm interested in. I don't even have access to a SW scale at this point, so I like the tinker at the range til I'm loving the feel and achieving the desired results. Then with any luck the local shop might let me use there scale with some supervision haha. And I can find out what that "favorite club" measures at, and try and go from there.

Thats the only way this can be done right...and its a long story to get there, but this questions pops up several times a week, and the more players who get to know this, the better it is since so many dont know the SW scales limitations and how to use it right.

I hope you saw some interest in the options we actually have, its NOT only MOI or flat SW value, so if you tune up your favorite club and put it on the SW scale, and you blindly use that value for all clubs, you get a set where all clubs longer than the favorite gets progressive higher resistance, and shorter clubs, progressive less resistance. This choice is only good if thats the way you play your clubs, lots of power in the long end, medium at the mid, and less power on the short clubs.

The BEST is to tune up the shortest and longest club in the set, then draw the line between them. That give you a set where the resistance in all clubs will match the use of power you swing those clubs with, and you might end up with a slope that can be 0.25 SWP between clubs as progression as one example...

Test and tune up, without looking on numbers, use the scale to duplicate specs, or to build to the progression rate you found right for YOU.

^ Right like Stuart had mentioned above maybe tune up the PW and the 5 iron, then measure up those two and go from there. I'm still just a hacker trying to regularly break 90 so I'm not delusional about having tremendous feel, just don't want to work against myself if I don't have to!

Thanks guys

Thanks for this great explanation.

Is MOI matching the answer when I feel like I have to go full power with the longer clubs versus shorter? I feel I can swing naturally in myself with 4h - PW. GW, SW, and LW I feel like I have to back off from that. Dr and 3w I feel like I have to blast off.

Never intended to SW match but here are my current swing-weight specs

Dr: 43W: 34h: 05-PW: 4GW: 3SW: 3LW: 4All my wedges feel too light. 3w - PW all feel great to me.

Lastly, where can I get MOI matching? Is there a directory of MOI fitters?

MOI Matching (fitting and building of clubs),. is typical club makers who deals with Tom Wishon products so his database of club makers would be the natural place to look for one.https://wishongolf.com/find-a-clubfitter/

You can also modify the set you have DIY, and when the PW works good, we leave the PW and the #8 at the lengths they have, and modify #9 #7 #6, #5..

When making MOi matched sets, we often use a different length progression between clubs than the classic 4/8" where 3/8" between clubs is the most common.

This chart for DIY mods of the set you got is based on the #9 iron as starting point, but the numbers for butt cut and added weight is "relative"to the #9, so we can just offset the headers "one step to the left" so the row who now shows of the #9 become the PW. (for the lowest 2 charts who shows but cut and head weight reset)

Honest question that never gets answered in these threads.

Why do SW scales actually exist & why are they in tour vans?

Every time is sell old TM Beard guy build a club for a pro he makes sure the SW is spot on to the spec sheet.

I'm guessing so when that guy ( trottie right?) puts that club in Rory's hands, it feels exactly the same as the previous club he was playing, and feels exactly how he wants it to feel. That's why I mentioned above that I have no delusions that I have tour player level feel, but those guys certainly do, and they want there gear the way they want it.

I'd agree that for amateur players it not the most critical thing, but fittings will show that certain things like club length/lie/SW, can most definitely affect how you deliver the club to the ball. And certain value will suit your movements and some will not. So there' s no need for any of us to make this game any harder on ourselves than it already is right?

Actually been answered in quite a few threads on the subject.

1) it exists the way it does because it was developed and designed in a time where there was really only one choice for a grip (or shafts for that matter).

2) It's still a very useful tool as long as it's used properly - or in the proper context. The problem isn't the scale, it's the way people use it. Once you've figured out what the best head weight might be for a particular combination of shaft, length, and grip, then it's still an excellent tool to reproduce that feel for that combination.

Thank you!

I totally agree with this, but on WRX it seems like the SW scale is the absolute most useless & inaccurate tool in the club builders arsenal.

Then again it's the same place where every golf hit's 320 yard drivers every swing.

I play a Driver at 45" with 2.5 extra wraps with grips that weight 50-53 grams (So Grip & tape is typically in the 56-58grm range), I know 100% after 2 swings if that driver is sub D3 on a scale because I won't be able to feel the head in my transition. Same with my fairway woods.....To me a SW scale is incredibly important.

I'm not Rory & I haven't hit a 300 yard drive in 10+ years but I know with my swing and tempo the most important measuring tool on my bench is my SW Scale.

You don't need an "official" swingweight scale to determine the swingweight. All you need is the ability to find the balance point of the club, the weight, and the length. Then it's a simple calculation. If you want more info on how to do this then hit the reply. :)

Also, if you really want to get into the weeds on duplicating club feel, then you would want to research and understand MOI Balance Index (MBI). MBI takes MOI matching to the next level by duplicating the weight distribution of the components along with the MOI. This gets into pendulum physics, but I'm working on a "poor man's" build process for MBI matching (similar to creating MOI matching using the SW progression). The key to this is using ascending weight shafts (like AMT).