Flag In or Out?

Recent rule changes gave us the option of leaving the flag in while putting without penalty. To be honest I never really cared either way and would go with whatever my playing partners preferred at the time. I did notice how some people really hated leaving it in though.

How many people do you think will be pulling the flag once everything goes back to normal? I think flag in will be around for many years to come so much so that pulling it will seem as old fashioned as knickers and persimmon woods.

In all the rounds I played last year (probably north of 50), I can count on one hand the number of times I was paired with someone who preferred to pull the flag. Overwhelmingly, players were content to keep the stick in. I expect that'll just be even more the case now.

(Almost all of my rounds are played where I'm paired with strangers. I don't have a regular group and I play a multitude of courses in my area, so this sampling is pretty broad.)

Lots of threads have already discussed this ad nausem. Better putters will generally want the pin out most all the time. Those folks with serious speed control issues are really the only beneficiaries of leaving the pin in. If your most frequently played course uses the ultra flexible fiberglass pins then it becomes more favorable to leave the flag in, but it would be a wash at best.

So, you prefer to leave the flag in? ?

No, but I am a better putter than most and play almost exclusively places with very stiff flagsticks (it's very windy here).

I genuinely prefer to pull the flag on anything that I think I can make. Perhaps its only because I invested a ton of time practicing with the flag out. It always mystified me that people would putt with the flag in on the practice green, before the rule change. It definitely rewards a different approach to putting.

So, I'm not going to insist on making others do it, and if it is feasible within the pacing and culture of a given group of golfers, I will ask to take the flag out on any putt I think I can make. I'm content to leave it in for lag putts, and think the rule change is beneficial there. I would never be a pita about it.

Aren't all WRXers better than most ?

I'm definitely not, in fact I need strokes form every single WRXer out there.

The good news is that I reckon you are about average for keying or spelling errors

I prefer the flag in, even on short putts (2-5 feet). It just feels like I have a more defined aiming point

MYGOLFSPY did a test on this. According to their results, the make percentage was higher with the pin in. As someone who has distance control issues, I prefer the flag in so that it serves as a backstop.

This is the understanding of the issue that I operate under.

I've been keeping it in pretty much all the time, unless someone else in the group pulls it. No sense in wasting time putting it in and out, which defeats the purpose of the rule. And that usually only happens in men's club tournaments. I really like the pin in for a line and speed perspective. It helps me see the line and register the speed for the putt better than just the hole. I thought it would be hard to change, as I've been playing the old way for almost 50 years, but my brain took to it right away.

There are a couple of caveats: 1) if it's windy and the flag is moving around I'll pull it (2) if it's leaning and can't be straightened (3) if the pins are metal and fatter than normal and there's a chance they'll bounce too much if you hit the pin. Coefficient of Restitution, like B.A.D. talks about.

In the year and a half that I've been keeping the flag in, I can only recall 2 times when it caused a ball to pop out that definitely would have gone in.

Very interesting article! Even with the distance control issues, it seems that I may be better off pulling the pin.

I will definitely be glad when we can find a "new normal". Unless it is a very long putt, I want the flag out. Old fashioned...probably due to my age but I have gotten screwed by it being in more times than I have with it out.

I go with Dave Pelz testing, and now I'm so used to pin being in, just going with that moving forward.

Yep, ad nausem.

Anxious to go back to pulling the flag and having a real cup, and playing, for that matter. Only two rounds so far.

Can’t imagine all sorts of faux cups or pool noodles will inspire people to leave the flag in.

The problem with this test is that he only tested one speed of the ball ie rolling at a pace equal to 2 1⁄2 feet past the hole.

That is very fast for most putts. Particularly for anything less than a 12 footer and at the USGA/R&A recommended stimp for amateurs.

I left the flag in last year and will continue to do so. Theres really no scientific proof that it makes much of a difference either way, leaving the flag in makes it easier to see the hole and not taking the flag out is just one less thing to mess with.

Really, the only time its a problem is when half of the group wants to leave the flag in and the other wants to pull it. If Im playing with randoms, I will usually just ask on the first hole if the rest of the group wants to leave the flag in or pull it and go with whatever the group wants. I played golf for over 20 years pulling the flag, so it really doesnt matter to me either way.

That was the slowest speed he tested.

I assume but do not know that at slower speeds there was little if any difference and he was trying to find a threshold at which differences would start to be significant?

I prefer it out but also notice the guys and gals putting for a living overwhelmingly take it out.

Too much faster than that is such poor distance control that it is hard for it to realistically apply to putting (see Pelz chipping study at 6' and 9' past the pin). Much slower than 2.5' past and you can pretty much prove theoretically that pin-in = pin-out. Between 2 and 3 feet past the hole is the region of most interest for seeing advantages or disadvantages.

Always pull it, much prefer the optics that way

After Corona, I’ll never leave it in again. I see so many putts hit the stick, hit the lip, and lip out it’s crazy. With foam in the cups it’s even more often.

I can’t wait to see that giant, QUIET, hole just sitting there waiting to get filled up. No stick in the way. No stupid foam. No flapping flag and whipping side to side flagstick and it’s stupid shadow. Just a hole and quiet. Then the wonderful sound of the ball hitting the bottom.

Heavenly.

All interesting, thank you. Especially that data suggesting that only some 50 per cent of balls hitting the flagstick other than dead centre at a pace to take it 4.5 feet past go in the hole. Here's my data from one hundred and twenty rounds since this rule changed, flagstick in 100 per cent of the time - ie some 2200 holes. Some context - I'm not a flash putter, no way I hit dead centre from 2.5 feet even close to the 27 per cent in the study. Precisely one putt has hit the flagstick and come out of the hole. So something isn't adding up. I'm not criticizing the study or it's conclusions just pointing out that on my data it doesn't apparently apply to my game.

In for long putts, out for putts less than 10 feet.

I think Covid rules have made people comfortable with leaving the flagstick in, and they will continue to do so. Personally, I never pull it.

A key factor for me is that a ball hitting the flagstick will always finish closer to the hole than if the flagstick wasn't there.

My take from reading all of the studies is that if a ball is going too fast to drop, the flagstick can only help. It may not cause the ball to drop, but it will keep it closer. If the speed is right, and the ball is likely to drop, the flagstick can only hurt. I don't think the "COVID" rules will change many minds, the guys who want it out have felt uncomfortable when forced to leave it in, the folks who like leaving it in have enjoyed that there's no question.

We aren't allowed to touch it, but generally I feel like the smaller aiming point would make up any difference than the theoretical probability of a bounce out. But on downhill/sidehill breakers it would be coming out, as that seems like where the pin would hurt you the most if you hit on the downhill side?