GHIN / Handicap Question

Backstory: I'm currently in a new city with a new job. When I'm not working golf is my #1 activity so for the time being (maybe a year or so), I'll be playing quite a lot. Ideally, I'm going to play 9 holes T/W/Th/F and then play at least 18 on Sat and Sun (each). Question: With roughly 1/2 of my golf being weekday 9-hole rounds I definitely want to post those scores as they obviously mean something. Throughout the first week I've been doing this via the GHIN website. The 9-hole scores appear with the "N" designation as they should. However, they seem to automatically combine together into 18-hole scores which are (not surprisingly) a little better than my normal 18-hole rounds. Is this okay? Is this standard procedure? For telling folks my general handicap, sure, but what about scrambles and tournaments? Is there a way to just get the 18-hole index or something? I want to know these scores but I don't want to anti-sandbag either.

Thanks in advance!

In my opinion there’s no reason to post your 9 hole rounds. If that’s all you ever did then sure, it’s better than nothing, but your getting in two full rounds a week. I just think 9 holes aren’t a good representation of a players hdcp.

Oh, I agree! You're very right. So far, I'm 3-for-3 with good 9-hole rounds but only 1-for-3 in scoring well across 18, although there's some reason to believe that part of that is just lack of experience on the back-9, which I've only played 3 times.

As I get more 18-hole rounds on this course I could certainly delete the 9-hole rounds and just get them out of there. That's one option, I guess. But in general I want to document all my playing (if that's possible). Can I not do that in GHIN somehow? That was kind of my question. Can I not get the system to calculate an 18-hole handicap so I use that where it's appropriate?

The correct procedure is to continue to enter the 9-hole rounds and the handicap system is doing what it is supposed to by combining them.

GHIN disagrees with you Jason and says 9 hole rounds should be posted.

OP yes it is standard that 9 hole rounds are combined, and it is OK. There is no differentiation between an 18 hole round and a combined 2-9s for your index. If your combined 9 hole rounds are consistently lower than the 18 hole rounds that is something you should work on.

I think for the most part it's ok to post 9 hole scores, especially if you only play nine on a full regulation course.

But how about this scenario. I'm a 9.4 handicap, but seem to be trending down from that a bit at the moment. I just played an easy ass nine hole course twice yesterday back to back. The holes average 50 to 75 yards on pretty much every hole. It's basically a short chip shot course. One hole plays at 100 yards, however. I shot -6 playing 18 holes (playing the course twice).

I looked up the handicap for it online and it says the rating is a 25.5 for 9 holes and the par is obviously 27. So since I played it twice my handicap would be -3 for that day. I just can't enter that into my handicap.

Or can I?

Absolutely. I definitely need to finish strong and convert more good 18-hole rounds. That's a major focus. 100% agreement on that for sure.

But to finalize the original point, I was told by someone at the club that I might want to consider NOT posting 9-hole rounds because they are often better and can therefore lead to a misleading handicap. I suppose I see his point considering it's harder to play 2 good 9's back-to-back as opposed to just one. However, this sounds like cheating. I doubt the GHIN system wants us picking and choosing which scores we post, especially when it allows the user to go in and sort according to Home (H), Away (A), Combined (N), Tournament (T), Penalty (P), etc.

If one's handicap is supposed to capture a player's "potential" then excluding certain scores is at best dubious and most certainly not honest if/when those good 9-hole scores helped bring DOWN a handicap. It sounds like I don't really have a choice.

FWIW, I prefer to record everything and I've been working from the assumption that every round counts and should therefore be posted for the sake of transparency. So long as there's a mathematically-viable way to incorporate all data, I think the spirit is to do just that. In this case, the GHIN system has separate CR/slope info for all 9's on our course across a variety of tees and tee combinations so there's certainly no guess-work going on here.

However, this is most certainly going to work against me should I play in a tournament. So I just want to know what exactly what I'm supposed to be doing so I'm not shooting myself in the foot.

Well, keep in mind that in the real world your handicap serves two purposes. The proper one is to help level the playing field in competition. The improper one is for bragging rights. :) While your hypothetical might benefit the latter, it's clearly working against you when you go to compete.

If you played a short course and shot -6 across 9 holes then good for you! That would imply you have a really good short game. I would think that in theory so long as the course has C.R. & Slope info associated with the tees you played you would be able to enter the info. But in the long run it sounds like it's only going to hurt you posting those kinds of scores.

IDK, I'll let someone else who's more knowledgeable chime in with the real answer though. But I don't see any reason to record those scores any differently. I just don't think your handicap will travel very well! :)

This is simply not accurate, the Handicap Rules require that you post all of your (acceptable) scores. You can go to the rules and see why a score might not be acceptable. "I've been working from the assumption that every round counts and should therefore be posted for the sake of transparency. So long as there's a mathematically-viable way to incorporate all data, I think the spirit is to do just that."
Not just the spirit, but the actual rules require you to post all of your scores. Check Rule 2.1 here to understand which scores are acceptable for handicap posting. Rules of HandicappingIf you were told by someone at the club that you shouldn't post those 9-hole scores, I'd conclude that "handicap manipulation" is part of the culture at that club. That means sandbagging.
And for @hanginnwangin , after playing that short course, you could look at that same section, 2.1 in the Handicap Rules, and see if you can find something in the rules that would tell you NOT to post the score.

It just doesn't feel right to count for me because I have never shot under on a regulation course yet. But hey, I played and putted amazing so I can take that with my going forward for some confidence when I do play longer 9 holes or regulation courses. It was also a good experience to be under par and not fold knowing that I was that far under par. I have seen many good golfers play from the closest tees just so that they could get more familiar with the feeling of posting lower scores for when it actually does happen in competition or when keeping your handicap,.

I will go over that. Thanks for the information.

From USGA Handicapping site:

The Golf Course Q. Does a course have to be a certain length to have a Course Rating and Slope Rating?

A. To have a valid Course Rating and Slope Rating, a tee set must be at least 3,000 yards for 18 holes, or 1,500 yards for 9-holes.

I'm glad @rogolf found that, I thought I remembered something like it but didn't search diligently enough. From what you described, your course would be well under 1500 yards for 9 holes, so you shouldn't post your score, as it should not have a USGA authorized CR and Slope. Where did you find the information, was it on the USGA Course Rating Database?

Well, I can't label anyone at my club a cheat at this stage. I don't know anything about the culture at this point and I have little evidence to support the notion anyone is sand-bagging. In fact, in my first scramble I'd say things were quite competitive so who knows? I'd be way out of line to accuse anyone of anything at this point. But I do see a grey area here between what constitutes a proper round of golf and what is "just practice." Maybe a lot of the members just don't treat their 9-hole rounds as legit.

On the one hand, it seems relatively obvious that any proper round (9 or 18) that is normal stroke play should be factored into a handicap. But on the other hand, it seems perfectly reasonable to exclude "practice" rounds wherein a player goes out hitting multiple balls or is otherwise just goofing around in some way that compromises the legitimacy of their score (e.g. conceding putts, attempting abnormally-risky shots, etc.). Luckily, I don't do a lot of that "goofing around." I've found I do worse when taking extra "practice" shots so I generally avoid it.

And for instance, here's another anecdote. I was out the other day with some members who wanted to do a simple betting game which still allowed me to play my own ball so I agreed. In that context there were a couple times I was pushed to be a little more aggressive than I normally would on a couple shots. I think on one I tried a really stupid hook driver shot on a short hole that ended up resulting in some big number. I counted that but obviously it's not really "me" playing in that situation. From that hole on I tried to play "my game" so as to keep my score honest (and as low as possible), but it did end up as a pretty lackluster round (~85). That's not going to help my handicap.

So it seems to me that each and every time someone goes out they essentially need to make a decision on that first tee box--am I treating this as legit, counting each stroke as I go and giving it my best, or am I just goofing around and not planning on counting this?

So it seems incumbent upon the player to report what they're doing in the most honest way possible. But I can conceive of people being on the course and playing in a way that doesn't really lend itself to reporting those "scores" (if they even justify as scores).

I would love to have each player make such a decision, and register his (her) intentions with the pro shop before playing, and be required to follow through accordingly. That type of system is in effect for "casual rounds" in many places around the world. But alas, that is not the way the rule is written for the USGA regions at the moment. There's no mention of "practice" rounds in the rules, and a Handicap Committee checking on the posting habits of its players would reasonably expect to see a score posted by a player each time his name is on the tee sheet.
As for the culture of your club, I have no way of knowing if this one guy telling you not to post those (good) 9-hole scores is typical, or just unaware of the rules. I've found that there's a ton of mis-information that gets spread around. On the other hand, as evidenced by our friend @bladehunter 's posts, there are definitely some clubs where handicap manipulation is a commonly accepted practice.

For as long as I recall using Ghin, regulation 9 hole rounds eventually combine to make 18 hole score. I see no problem as the software does the combination math, not me. I have not played a 9 hole executive (short) course in thirty years so can't say whether Ghin software combines them for 18. I don't believe it will convert two different 9 holes courses to make 18; if it doesn't, I believe it keeps those 9 holes scores separate until such time as you provide an acceptable course score. Till then your index is what ever Ghin says.

Thanks

The course is well under the requirement. My instinct to not post it was correct. It just didn't feel right. But, now I am glad I have the information necessary to know what can be posted and what shouldn't be posted, thanks to you guys.

GHIN takes 9-hole scores in order. The first one is converted to a 9-hole differential, and waits in "storage". The next time you post a 9-hole score, it is also converted into a 9-hole differential, and the two scores are combined. They could be the same 9 hole course, two different nines at a single course, or scores from two completely unrelated 9-hole courses. All that matters is the order in which the scores are posted (hopefully on the day of play). A 9-hole score will be dropped from the records if it becomes older than the 20th score differential in the player's scoring record before it is paired with another 9-hole score.

posting all rounds seems excessive. Sometimes I take my godchildren out and play off the ladies tees with them. Even with a fair amount of goofing around that score could never be right to post, correct? I don’t play tournaments so it’s really just a way for me to keep track of my progress, but it doesn’t seem like anyone should post a round like that...I agree with op that my hcp would be much better if I just played 9. I’ve got some nagging injuries and by 16 or 17 I often am not as sharp...

Good to know. Thank you for the clarification.

It seems to resolve itself. If indeed 9-hole scores lower one's handicap then including them only hurts the player in competition (anti-sandbagging).

My hunch is that the better you are, the more the "9-hole effect" can be seen. High-handicappers won't have a random 9 wherein they go super low because their blow-ups aren't very far apart and they can't go a full 9 without making a few ugly mistakes. OTOH, low handicappers can definitely get hot and play a full 9 holes at level par or better while avoiding blow-ups entirely leading to "artificially-low" 18-hole sums.

So as I can see, there's a natural incentive within the system that pushes better players to try and play all 18 when they can so as to avoid the risk of ending up with an artificially-low handicap.

To your first point, I would do as I said above. Decide on the first tee whether it counts or doesn't and subsequently play/report honestly.

I'd encourage everyone who asks these questions to read the rules for themselves, as well as talk to the Handicap Committee where they play. If you're not playing competitively with anyone, and not planning to in the future, nobody should care what you do. But some day you may get an invitation to play in someone's Member-Guest, and your past choices to follow (or not follow) the rules do influence the handicap you have. To my mind, if you choose to maintain an official USGA Handicap Index, you should feel required to follow the USGA Handicap Rules. If you're only looking for personal use, there are still unofficial handicap services where you can track your scores.

Well said @davep043!

rules of golf also state to play the ball where it lies and a bunch of other things not all of us actually do during casual play. I understand where your coming from but let’s be honest here, it’s not that serious. I play in multiple Mem/Gue every year not because I’m “sandbagging” from not recording all my 9 Hole Rounds but because people enjoy playing with me. I’ve played in tons of official events from AJGA to VSGA to many club championship events so I know the rules of golf but bottom line is we don’t play every round the same. Some rounds are by the rules and some are just to be outside having a good time with friends and having a couple cocktails.

Wow. There is a lot of self-confessed sandbaggers in this thread. Look in the mirror. You are the problem with the system.

I play by the rules and post everything. As do all my friends. It’s really not that hard to do. Get over yourself. Your index is your index and it goes up, it goes down, it gets combined, and it gets adjusted. Give the system enough data and it works very, very well for everyone.

If a player plays a round by the ROG and handicapping rules, post the round you cheats.

i agree with your last statement “IF a player plays by the rules of golf and handicapping rules, post your round”. The point I was making previously is that a lot of rounds we play are for fun and aren’t exactly by the rules of golf. Those are the ones along with the casual 9 hole rounds that I think it’s comical that, others either don’t ever play, or want us to somehow post. If every round you play is 100% by the rules then you need to loosen up.

If you are suggesting that judgement is allowed when determining which scores to post, you're just wrong. If you're suggesting that the USGA's system should be revised to officially recognize that some rounds don't deserve to be posted, and to require pre-registration for casual rounds to be posted, I'd happily agree.
And what's do tough about playing by the rules? I'm like @Augster , I do it all the time.

So if I go out and take a mulligan or three, fluff up my lie a couple times, and maybe take the ball off a root to hit it....This is how a lot of people play golf all the time by the way...these rounds should be counted by me? I play plenty of serious golf 100% by the rules but I also play plenty of rounds under these circumstances. Again my point is that not all of us go out to the course every time to play an official round. We go out just to have a fun couple hours with our buddies.

My pattern was higher front 9 averages and better back 9s. I think you are taking the 18 hole "effect" a bit too far as a general "rule".

As you've discovered, just post your rounds whether 9 or 18, the rest takes care of itself!