HCP vs HCI : A Rant

when one says my golf HCP is a 10 or a 12 is the guy a 10 really? Or is he more like a a 14 HCI?

I really believe that an HCI cuts thru a lot a bull$hit and gets to the truth of a person’s ability. My current HCI is a 14.2 , a 12 HCP on a 121 slope course . Most of my rounds are traveling anymore and know that , at some of the tougher courses I will not be a 12 but closer to 14 or 15 or even higher.

Can we get real with our ability?

If i have it correctly your index is independant of course, and your handicap takes into account course rating yes, that's what you mean?

So if i say i am a 1.5 than that is my index....but if i play a tough course, than i am a 3 that day

That is what you mean right? If so i agree , OK

Correct. I believe a HCP has to be qualified to a degree to determine how good a golfer is. Most of my friends do not have an established HCI and more golfers in the USA do not know what their real HCP is on any given course.

Mtl I’ve heard guys say when they go to a better course, ‘ I don’t know what happened today. I shot a 90 and I usually shoot an 84 at my home course.’ They never take in effect they play on a fairly easy courses . They need to get a clue. Rant over

Sure that i get. Essentially it's just that people need to factor in the course. Last year in midsummer i was like 0.2-0.5 and my scoring average was probably 76 ~

My course happens to be fairly tough and is rated as such. I don't expect to shoot 72 every time

Yes i much prefer using index because handicap is a fairly meaningless number that takes into account the course you play. You could see a 5 shot swing playing different courses

So if my GHIN says I'm a 3.9 index what "handicap" would I report having?

Let's hypothesize I'm playing a course with 73 / 138 ratings.

When talking about your playing ability you refer to your GHIN.

You use your course handicap when saying things like "I shot my handicap" or when determining what holes you get strokes on for a match or ESC purposes.

The course handicap is:

GHIN * (slope/113) + Course Rating - Par

rounded to the nearest integer, which in this example for you is 5.7 rounded to 6.

THIS !!!
It's no different than it was under the old system. Someone is asking about your "ability".@NoTalentLefty If someone asks your "handicap" or TELLS you their handicap they MEAN, or SHOULD mean, handicap index. For convenience, since a lot of casual golfers and non-golfers will about a handicap, one generally rounds it off as cadoipi suggests.
If you do get a bit further into the discussion you'd generally tell the person the complete index (unrounded) and explain further if necessary.
Nobody is asking you your COURSE handicap,,,,,,,,, unless you're about to tee off.

NSX nailed it. Here are a few definitions and comments:

Handicap Index = the measure of a player's demonstrated ability calculated against the slope rating of a golf course of standard difficulty. (It is expressed as a number taken to one decimal point.)

Course Handicap = The number of handicap strokes a player receives, before handicap allowances, from a specific set of tees as determined by the Slope Rating and the difference between Course Rating and par (see Rule 6.1 Course Handicap Calculation).

GHIN = Golf Handicap Information Network

Gin = distilled alcoholic beverage flavored with juniper berries.

Comments:

Under the old USGA system a player would see his Handicap Index and his course handicap from his "default tee" at his/her home course as set by the administrator at his golf club. As we learned in a different thread, the default tee setting is not in the new 2020 WHS system. This means you have to choose a course and tee in the app to see your course handicap.

I am not sure if the decision to eliminate the default tee was on purpose, but it does have two benefits. First, many players did not understand that their course handicap varied depending on the course and tee played. They mistakenly thought their course handicap shown at a revision was the same at every course. So that issue is now gone. Also, it has also eliminated the issues/arguments around implementing Section 3-5 - players competing from different tees - that were somewhat common at golf clubs.

For those who use their handicap in almost every round played: because we get updates after each posted round, it is best if a player has the appropriate (GHIN or whatever computation service your association uses) app on his smart phone for easy access to his up-to-date Handicap Index and to quickly determine his correct course handicap prior to play.

I'm not sure the part of the "Default tee" part. The CH was your index scaled by the slope of the tees you were playing. The main issue with the old system is it didn't factor in the CR when it came to calculating CH, so if you had a net match between two players playing different tees, there was an adjustment due to the CR delta, which many people found hard to swallow. (or down right didnt understand or wasnt done correctly)

The new system simply factors in CR when determining CH. So when you have people playing different tees the CH calculation is more transparent. But I agree, the new app is very good and makes calculating strokes much easier.

I think this is why I prefer to use scoring average to calculate my own progress. I don't play in any team games, scrambles, or tournaments. At the end of the year I average my scores over the season and see where I fall compared to last year. I find how handicap is calculated to be confusing, and frankly very skewed. When I was keeping a handicap when I was a member at a course 10-12 years ago I remember shooting one really lights out round and it cut my "official" Golf Canada in half. I had a couple of 9-holers that would have been similar to the 18 hole best round if I would have kept playing and assuming the same level of play continued that I did post. However, I just find it bizarre how quickly my handicap fell after 1 round and how it takes basically 10 horrific rounds for it to creep higher. Comparatively to the UK system where it seems to inch in either direction as they seem to understand the flux much better, something I prefer.

You do realize that now the UK and Canada all calculate Handicap Index the same way, right? Or at least they will before long, as the WHS goes into effect all around the world.

And as I remember the CONGU system, the Handicap went down by full stroke increments in response to good scores, but went up in 1/10 stroke increments in response to bad scores.

In response to the OP, if some random Joe asks me my handicap, I'll tell him my normal Course Handicap on my home course. Most random Joes don't know enough about handicaps to care about the difference to HI. If I'm talking to someone I know as a real golfer, I'll tell him my index. And on the first tee, we'll trade Course Handicaps for the course and tee we're playing that day. I don't find it confusing or frustrating at all, I adjust my terminology to fit the audience and situation.

Important question for your choice to report your course handicap to random Joe. Which is higher, your index or your course handicap at your home course/standard tees?

In the 90's and early '00s I held a number of positions in my club, one of which was "Secretary". Long time ago so I didn't remember exactly but I did recall the home course handicap being on my GHIN card. This was also pre-computer entered scores.

Anyway, back then, twice a month, for the latest revision, we also got new stickers to place on our GHIN handicap card and new sheets (with carbon paper - remember that ? LOL) to record newer scores for everybody in the club. I expect the Home handicap was on the cards and the sheets sent to us for convenience sake as there were few cell phones and few laptops around to calculate everybody's index for the day's play.

At some point the Hime CH disappeared off the sticker.

Now the card/sticker has become irrelevant because our index can change every round and smartphones are ubiquitous. No more twice a month revisions.

In the old system the CR wasn't factored in because it wasn't part of the CH calc. As you mention, differences between tee sets had to be calc'd separately. Frankly, until maybe 5 or 6 years ago I'd never heard of different tee sets cals as, until then, I'd never participated in ANY event where different tee sets were played. LOL

Anyway, ol' Google often has the answers. Found a few older handicap card/sticker samples on Google Images.

to be fair you can come off as a bit of a golf nerd or clown if someone asks your cap and you reply back "this week I am a 3.1 Jimmy" and of course if you are 3.0 you could have a "who's on first?" debate

"What's your index?"

3

No, that's your cap, what's your index?

It's a 3 FFS, get out of my face

My current index is 4.7, I get 6 strokes on my home course (72.0, 135, par 72)It wasn't that long ago. I remember going to Scotland in 2011 and 2012, I made sure I got the cards for my entire group printed before we left, taking no chances on handicap limit enforcement at the Old Course.

It looks like John Doe should be referred to the Handicap Committee for suspicion of sandbagging.

Excellent idea.

I played the Old Course once, back in 1994, but it wasn't a golf trip. It was a 3 week automobile trip through England and Scotland with my GF. We kinda sorta played it by ear, traveling here and there by car but when our trip took us near St Andrews,,,,,,,,,, well, she understood. LOL

Long time ago so I'm not sure but the figure $75 sounds about right, including a rental set of clubs (2nd tier IIRC).

In recent years my club had a label printer so you could print the handicap label. You can still view a card/label in the GHIN app - go to "More" in the lower right and click on "My Card"

Krt22: my club has used 3 different tees in some club tournaments since 2007 or 2008. It was a constant struggle because the guys playing the forward tees bitched about it for 12 years! Even though it was completely explained over and over again. I'm glad that is over. It's been crickets here ever since!

In regards to the course handicap and default tee situation:

At least here in MN, up until 12/15 of last year you would get a twice monthly emailed handicap revision update. In the update you would see your updated Handicap Index and your corresponding Course Handicap from a set of tees at your home club. This tee was referred to as the "default tee" in the system. As I mentioned, it was set by an administrator at your golf club. As I also mentioned, some members mistakenly thought the course handicap shown in the revision update was their course handicap from every tee at every course. Particularly if it favored them. So for this reason, it is a real benefit the default tee was dropped.

No I didn't. Like I said, I don't keep track of a handicap and why I prefer a scoring average for my own records. I don't think I've ever been asked what my handicap is outside of a tournament. Where are you guys playing where a random playing partner is going to ask your handicap? In probably 15 years of playing where I can remember, I haven't had anyone ask me that point blank.

So you HAVE been asked what your handicap was. At a tournament no less. So what did you say since you don't keep a handicap and how were you even allowed INTO the tournament without a handicap ? I'm guessing it was a rather informal tournament, yes ?

Any place I've ever played, IF they allowed a stranger into the comp who didn't have an official handicap and said "I'm about a 13",,,,,,,,, and this guy won, the howls from the members would never end. LMAO

And where are "you guys" playing where a random player will ask your handicap ? You're kidding, right ? Almost every time I tee it up I'd be asked my handicap UNLESS we were playing a GROSS score event, which isn't very often in most(?) clubs. And, the other player(s) keeping score would need to know my handicap just to give me a proper NET score at the end OR account for handicap strokes during the round in a Stableford (or similar) net competition.

Different places, I guess. I honestly can't say I've had someone ask my handicap anywhere in memory. Yes, the tournaments were very informal work events. I have no interest in the "official" events or those pay-to-play scrambles...I'm not a gambler or a drinker and don't particularly care for 5.5 hr rounds. I've done one or two of them a long time ago and hated every minute of it.

With the new WHS and the added CR-par, all you can do anymore is give your index. Then whatever tees you play will move your shots up and down.

I’m a 3.6 right now. Our CR-par on our white tees we usually play is -2. So my cap each day is a 2. But if I move up to our golds, I’m a +3.

So the daily cap you play off is a moving target based off your index. Just tell them your index when asked.

One guy runs a weekly skins game for guys that are a “10-cap or above”. One of the guys that plays has been getting lessons and practicing a lot. His index has gone down to 9.6. Which, last year, he’d be playing off 10 and in the game. He’s been in the game for years hovering between 9.5 and 12. This year, with our -2 CR-par built in, he’s an 8 cap and has been kicked out.

Just another victim of CR-par. :)

Handicap is going to reflect your potential. Average is going to reflect your consistency. Up to you to compile your own records if not competing, but don't see a reason not to do both. In fact the WSGA calculates my YTD average for me when looking at my posted scores.

I have had guys ask about handicap when getting paired up for casual rounds, but mostly after talking a bit a realizing we may have been in similar local County or State tourneys. It does happen when talking golf off course fairly often.

Firstly, of course one can still give one's CH from the tees you play same as one did before the WHS. Personally, as I've mentioned before, I'd always give my INDEX, never my (Home) CH.

So let me see if I've got this straight. You say now one can "only" give one's index BUT your club runs a tourney for 10 and above but they use the CH ?!?!? Now THAT makes a lot of sense now, doesn't it ?

But the guy can still play in the tourney. He just moves back a tee set and then his 9.5 INDEX would likely result in a CH OVER 10. AND he'd get a couple more shots. LMAO

If you are playing Net Skins, then it seems silly to kick out a low cap.