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Help! I can’t shallow the club.

 caeye0710 ·  
caeye0710caeye0710 Members  157WRX Points: 78Handicap: 2.6Posts: 157 Fairways
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I’ll start by saying that I haven’t had any formal lessons in years. Don’t really have the time to go take any. Hoping someone here can help.

Since I’ve become a weekend warrior, I’ve developed a steep downswing going into impact and I can’t seem to shallow the club out. Also seems that at impact I have early extension. I’m practicing a lot more now, and want to get rid of this bad habit. I’ve attached some photos of my downswing. I was purposely trying to feel like I was “laying off” on the way down, but the club is still “above my right arm” on the way down (if that makes sense).

Anyone got any ideas? And before anyone says anything like “swing your swing”, I get it. When I’m playing well, I’m scoring well (duh). When my timing is off (past 4 rounds), I’m a hack.


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Comments

  • footmashiefootmashie Members  73WRX Points: 44Posts: 73 Bunkers
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    Think more globally. Your task is to get your weight through the strike first, if you do the club trails and shallows. If you task the club weight getting through first instead of you getting through first all kinds of things can happen. Weight transfer through the strike is arguably the most important fundamental, and is not easily acquired. The club does not drop in the slot, you do, you drop in the slot. all of you, and the club will obey.

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  • BB28403BB28403 Members  4519WRX Points: 898Handicap: This post may not be here soon as moderators may delete it to free up space. Be concerned... you may be next...Posts: 4,519 Titanium Tees
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    Check out AMG’s youtube. Great stuff on shallowing 👌🤘🏌️

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  • chigolfer1chigolfer1 Members  1325WRX Points: 356Posts: 1,325 Platinum Tees
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    I like this. First time I've ever heard it described this way.

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  • RobertBaronRobertBaron Members  893WRX Points: 208Posts: 893 Golden Tee
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    Your hands don’t have enough room to work through impact so you have to come in steep. Gotta get the left hip back more through impact. Pretend there’s a wall or stick an alignment rod about 2-3 inches behind your left cheek at setup position. Then try to hit the wall or stick with your left hip through impact. Gravity and momentum will shallow the club for you.

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  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers  19034WRX Points: 1,698Posts: 19,034 Titanium Tees
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    Stills don’t say near enough. No context. Doesn’t show root cause.


    down the line and face on if you want a helpful answer.

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  • chipachipa Florida/Caribbean Members  267WRX Points: 67Handicap: SoonPosts: 267 Greens
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    My brother paid a pga teaching pro well all he ever told him was to "shallow" the club. He never told him how. Then another pro told him to stay "behind the ball" too, but again he didn't tell him how. There are a lot of people out there, including even good golfers, that seem to think getting the club into a good position at impact requires all types of complicated moves that leaves one thinking if they have to be a gymnast or something.

    Actually, it shouldn't be so hard, and it isn't, there are a lot of kids that can do a decent and efficient swing without a lot of teaching. I would look at Manuel de La Torres videos about being relaxed and swinging the club. That and learning a proper setup(a lot of players set up with a braced right leg, etc.) and takeaway sequence(hands, arms, shoulders is easier) and then stay loose and let it fly. Just remember the golf swing is still mostly art and not science in spite of what you may hear. If it were science then everyone who applied "the correct swing procedure" would have success no exceptions, but we know that's not the case.

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  • chigolfer1chigolfer1 Members  1325WRX Points: 356Posts: 1,325 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Jun 24, 2020 2:52am #9

    I hear this but it disregards the fact that some people, for whatever reason, just swing the club "wrong" from the start. Like me for instance. I started golf in my early teens, no instruction until my 40s, and my swing had nearly every fault possible. Now, that is just because I am not athletic in a coordination sense as some but I do get a little frustrated with people who say it should be natural, etc. That's just not reality for some people.

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  • BottleCapBottleCap Members  1506WRX Points: 263Posts: 1,506 Platinum Tees
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    I had the same issue way back, this is what changed it for me, supination, i actually start mine before i reach the top of my back swing, allows me to shallow and really get after it


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  • neoselachiineoselachii Members  52WRX Points: 38Handicap: 12Posts: 52 Bunkers
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    Supination wont help unless he fixes his lower body movements. Your weight looks like it's on your right side at impact. Need to get weight more forward at impact and your hips look a little square at impact as well.

    You can try supination as long as you want but if your hanging back you will still have to flip at it

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  • BottleCapBottleCap Members  1506WRX Points: 263Posts: 1,506 Platinum Tees
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    Supination made my body realize that I wasn’t going to be able to square the face unless I rotated to get my hands forward and get off the back foot, so it worked for me

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  • chipachipa Florida/Caribbean Members  267WRX Points: 67Handicap: SoonPosts: 267 Greens
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    I didn't mean to imply the golf swing was natural for most people, in fact I added the point about kids with "little instruction" and also technical details about the swing.

    Nonetheless, to clarify, I don't believe everything in the golf swing is natural, only that with the proper setup and takeaway sequence the downswing should feel natural and easy without any manipulation nor contortions, as many, even "good" teaching pros would tell us. I think most golfers if having played enough can remember a round of golf or day at the range where everything they hit was relatively straight, long and with little effort, no contortions needed to include the "shallowing the club". This is evidence that just about anyone can do a repeatable and effortless golf swing. However, lack of understanding of the golf swing leads to frustration and tension, which will detroy the grip and thus the swing. This is why I like Manuel de La Torres attitude of freely swinging the club because it reduces tension. However, I am more a stickler of details because I like you have a problem in "finding" my swing, so I have been trying different setup and takeaway scenarios. I prefer Ben Hogan's braced right leg setup and left hand turning in(followed by the shoulder obviously) to start the swing but from there I try to keep my focus on the ball instead of worrying what my hands are doing and swing the club as MDLT would say. Actually, I think about swing the shaft instead of the club because it adds a linear component to the takeaway that gives my backswing direction.

    Posted:

    Minimalist - 2w 12 deg. Bang - 16 deg. Hybrid Heater - 4,5,7,9,G Acer XV Tour - LW Bang - Bang mallet

  • chigolfer1chigolfer1 Members  1325WRX Points: 356Posts: 1,325 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Jun 24, 2020 3:19pm #14

    Thanks for detailed response. As you can see, this is a touchy subject for me, haha. To your point, before instruction, I had no idea how bad my swing looked but I could play a round of golf and score reasonably well. I have to disagree on something else though. I've had instruction from some well known instructors and my set up and takeaway are very nice. It's when my downswing starts that everything goes awry, so even a solid set up and backswing doesn't ensure success.

    Posted:
    Post edited by chigolfer1 on
  • moehoganmoehogan Members  1127WRX Points: 176Posts: 1,127 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Jun 26, 2020 2:51pm #15

    Trail forearm supination needs to be accompanied by trail shoulder external rotation. For someone playing right handed, that means the entire right arm must start being wound clockwise somewhere between P3-P5. IMO, better earlier than later!

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    Post edited by moehogan on
  • chipachipa Florida/Caribbean Members  267WRX Points: 67Handicap: SoonPosts: 267 Greens
    Joined:  edited Jun 24, 2020 4:04pm #16

    I understand completely. I have played rounds with many people that had very conventional looking backswings in person but rarely hit with power or precision. This is because the golf swing is more than just about the postion of the club, it is about the correct biomechanics as well. Many golfers can get to the top and everything looks good, but it's difficult to see if they have loaded the lower body correctly and also with which muscles they are gripping the club. This is where MLDT's swing concept comes in, one needs to feel the club which with the "positional" aspects of the takeaway and backswing will help one "find" the swing they always had. In summary, if one has to contort to hit the ball (shallow the clubhead) with force on the inside they've done something wrong. As evidence of this watch the LPGA tour and see how well many of these small ladies hit the ball. I expect they could do no more than 10 pushups and 3 pullups for lack of arms strength nor much less a squat with their bodyweight and yet the hit the ball better than both of us, haha.

    Posted:

    Minimalist - 2w 12 deg. Bang - 16 deg. Hybrid Heater - 4,5,7,9,G Acer XV Tour - LW Bang - Bang mallet

  • caeye0710caeye0710 Members  157WRX Points: 78Handicap: 2.6Posts: 157 Fairways
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    Amazing how much this tip helped during a range session over lunch today. What's crazy is how it feels like I'm making a majorly different move, but on video, it's only minutely different. Even what amounts to a slight change still can make a world of difference though. I felt compression I haven't felt in a long time, my misses were a little thin instead of laying the sod over from being steep. Great tip. Just need to keep working on it to eventually get the club in position to where it needs to be.

    Posted:
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    Cally Apex UT 21* - KBS Tour FLT
    Miura TC-201 4-PW - Tour Issue S400
    TM Hi-Toe 50, 54, 58 (Or RTX 4 Raw 52, 56, 60)
    Scotty TNP22 Tour Only Silver 35"
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  • footmashiefootmashie Members  73WRX Points: 44Posts: 73 Bunkers
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    That space between our ears is quite the fairway if used properly.

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  • ofortunaofortuna Members  444WRX Points: 47Handicap: 8.4Posts: 444 Greens
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    Your arms/hands are outpacing your turn. When your hips return to facing the ball, your left arm should still be parallel to the ground. Look at p5 of any good ball striker.

    As you start your transition, leave your hands high and just move your right elbow forward with your hips. Of course you need a good backswing and get deep enough with your hands at the top to set up for this transition move.

    Posted:
  • 8overpar8overpar Spring hill, TNMembers  327WRX Points: 112Handicap: 4.9Posts: 327 Greens
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    I'm in trouble now with this. Well, it's just now starting to cause me problems actually. I had a top teacher lend me 10 minutes of his time and put me on video. I almost lost my mind when he showed it to me. He split screened me next to a PGA Tour guy for a visual of how I should proceed. Sadly I'm in the "flip it" category until I rid this steep mess. I've been a "good timing" player my who life. Almost 43 and my timing is off just enough with the driver to get in my head. I asked about why my iron play hasn't suffered....turf interaction was the answer. Might have to hit 3 woods off the deck for a while until I figure my flip out.

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  • chipachipa Florida/Caribbean Members  267WRX Points: 67Handicap: SoonPosts: 267 Greens
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    I can't count how many times I heard teaching "pros" say some pga pro "flips" it through impact negatively, often times while the player is winning the tournament, to include DJ Johnson, Tony Finau, etc. In fact I have heard this so much in the last 25 years that I'm starting to believe "flipping it" is the real secret to a repeating effortless swing.

    If you want a less steep swing a common solution is to keep your hands lower on the takeaway so your right side loads up better.

    Posted:

    Minimalist - 2w 12 deg. Bang - 16 deg. Hybrid Heater - 4,5,7,9,G Acer XV Tour - LW Bang - Bang mallet

  • 8overpar8overpar Spring hill, TNMembers  327WRX Points: 112Handicap: 4.9Posts: 327 Greens
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    My takeaway is fine. I pull the grip almost straight down, body rotation almost stops at impact while my flip starts flipping. The follow through is where I need to flatten out a touch.

    Posted:
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    915F 15* 
    716CB +2 up
    SM7 52*, Scratch PDG SS 56* & SM7 60*
    Sunset Beach Masonboro Weldneck
    TP5X or Snell MTB Black
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  • MillbrookMillbrook Members  1755WRX Points: 135Posts: 1,755 Platinum Tees
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    I just paid $45 to performancegolfzone to access Eric Cogornos 'Magic Move' which is how to shallow the club.

    I won't do it justice but to summarise the main points;

    ADDRESS

    Club square at address

    Grip neutral

    In the takeaway the club face is pointing slightly down at parallel ie not toe up

    Lead wrist flat at the top of the backswing rather than cupped

    BACKSWING

    Too flat a backswing = over the top downswing

    Don't over roll the arms in the backswing

    At the top the shaft is more vertical and the logo on the glove is not pointing to the sky, more forward or at 45 degrees

    DOWNSWING

    Having a 'flying elbow' means the trail shoulder is internally rotated so a bigger move is needed to externally rotate the shoulder. The bigger move is easier to make.

    If the trail elbow is pointing down then the trail shoulder is already externally rotated so need to keep it like that in the downswing or increase it.

    FEELS

    The club head works behind you

    Lead wrist is flexed not cupped on the way down

    Pulling the arms down steepens the shaft

    Leave the arms where they are and open the body to shallow the club.


    MY EXPERIENCE

    The video is good because it isn't just instructional but is educational in the sense that it gives you information which helps you self diagnose.

    What I got out of it was I was too flat at the top and my trail elbow was too 'tucked in'.

    Once I stood the club up more and allowed the trail elbow to move further from my side (not the full JN flying elbow) it gave me more room to shallow the club.

    Having the elbow further away gave me a positive move to make.

    It made me think of Harvey Pennicks Magic Move - 'To start your backswing, let your weight shift to your left foot while bringing your right elbow back down to your body'.

    However the 'down' is more diagonally down and out.

    The face seems to want to square itself as well.

    Posted:
    All comments are made from the point of
    view of my learning and not a claim
    to expertise.

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