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Interesting study on putter grooves

 CougarRed ·  
CougarRedCougarRed Southeast TexasMembers  211WRX Points: 113Handicap: 6.4Posts: 211 Fairways
Joined:  in Putters #1

From the folks at Cleveland, presented in 2018 at a conference in Australia:

Variable Face Milling to Normalize Putter Ball Speed and Maximize Forgiveness

First they show that deeper grooves spaced tightly (smaller pitch) produce less ball speed than shallower grooves spaced wider.

Then they compare two mallets, one with no grooves and one with variable grooves deep/tightly spaced around the sweet spot, and shallow/wider on the toe and heel. The putter without grooves shows a parbolic pattern (blue dots) where toe and heel hits progressively go shorter as the strike occurs further from the sweetspot. The putter with variable milling shows a much more linear pattern of consistent rollout no matter the strike position.


An independent study of putter grooves from Taylormade, Odyssey, Ping, Evnroll, Bettinardi and Cleveland seem to confirm these findings:

"Cleveland’s Optimized Face Milling delivered the most consistent ball speeds of all the putters (just 0.1mph difference between all putts hit, most were 0.3mph)."


Posted:

Vote for your favorite Houston public course!

Accessible SE Texas Courses I Would Play Again
In order of distance from downtown
Memorial Park (renovated)*
Gus Wortham (renovated)*
Cypresswood Tradition*
Blackhorse South*
Eagle Pointe*
The Wilderness*
Walden Lake Conroe
Crown Colony

* - Regular Rotation

Still Need to Try
In order of distance from downtown
Golf Club of Houston
Blackhorse North
High Meadow Ranch
Woodforest

1

Comments

  • Matt70Matt70 Members  423WRX Points: 111Handicap: +0.6Posts: 423 Greens
    Joined:  edited Jun 26, 2020 1:39pm #2

    Cleveland the most economical too, from what I have seen in the shops. Well done Cleveland ๐Ÿ‘๏ธ

    Posted:
    Don White, Custom BB&FC,ย 2 step muscle backs.
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    Cameron 009
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    1/1 Kari Lajosi Damascus/TEL.
    James Ingles & Scott Readman handmade
    Golds Factory Private Stock no.1.
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  • nova6868nova6868 Members  5011WRX Points: 344Handicap: 2.1Posts: 5,011 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Jun 26, 2020 2:17pm #3

    That's interesting and I'm sure the difference in grooves dose normalize distance when you do a test like this.

    However in practice there are some issues that come up. One thing it does is cause putts across the face to feel and sound very different. And putts from the sweetspot feel muted, and they don't roll as far as you would think if you're used to a normal putter face. This is shown in your graph, the effect mostly comes from dialing back the putts hit from the middle. I think this is why pros haven't exactly gravitated to these putters. Even companies like PING who have the TR grooves available across multiple lines have a huge number of their staff requesting plain smooth faces.

    Posted:
  • Matt70Matt70 Members  423WRX Points: 111Handicap: +0.6Posts: 423 Greens
    Joined:  #4

    Out of all my putters, this is the best milling pattern for distance control, bar none.

    Posted:
    Don White, Custom BB&FC,ย 2 step muscle backs.
    Golds Factory raw Oil Can MB's
    Mizuno Mp-33, TP-18
    Cameron SCAD' 05, 2/18.
    Cameron 009
    Cameron Napa Grapes.
    1/1 Kari Lajosi Damascus/TEL.
    James Ingles & Scott Readman handmade
    Golds Factory Private Stock no.1.
    Odyssey Dual Force 440.
  • Z1ggy16Z1ggy16 Members  9749WRX Points: 1,650Posts: 9,749 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #5

    Same concept with evnroll and the old ping TR models. Only issue I have is if you're playing on slow greens... Uphill putts really need to be hammered. I think it takes a while to adjust to variable groove putters compared to ones that have no grooves or a face that does other things, like micro hinge.

    In the picture above if therl hole was at 0,2.4 and a person went right from the straight face to the milled, he's missing almost every putt.. at least the ones he middles go in on flat face.

    Instead of looking at a dispersion circle, I'd be more interested to see shot gained 18 data from various distances.

    Posted:
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    4w - SIM Ti Diamana B 80
    5w - Speedzone FX 2.0 380 or Speedzone 4i Modus 105
    818H1 Tensei White 90
    Irons - P760 5-PW | Modus 120
    Glide 3.0 50/54/58 S400 Tour Issue
    Huntington Beach #1 or Toulon San Diego
    Ball - BXS


  • MaineMarinerMaineMariner Members  846WRX Points: 538Posts: 846 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #6

    Whenever these grooved face discussions come up, I'm left wondering how much people are actually missing the sweet spot. In other words, just how much are the variable grooves actually coming into play?

    For example, here's a look at my impact pattern from a putter fitting I had at Club Champion over the winter. I'm your pretty typical mid-handicapper amateur, and putting is neither a strong nor weak spot in my game. I figure this would be reasonably relatable for anyone at my skill level:


    If I'm reading that correctly, SAM considers the "Impact Spot" (or sweet spot, I guess), to be about 3mm wide from either direction of the dead center of the putter. It looks like my worst putt was 4.42mm to the heel of the center of the putter (or the impact spot?)

    Based on Cleveland's graph, would any of my putts have even been impacted by their groove technology? It doesn't really look like it. At least not from a strokes gained perspective.

    Posted:
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    Ping Heppler ZB3
  • Matt70Matt70 Members  423WRX Points: 111Handicap: +0.6Posts: 423 Greens
    Joined:  #7

    “In the picture above if therl hole was at 0,2.4 and a person went right from the straight face to the milled, he's missing almost every putt.. at least the ones he middles go in on flat face.”

    I’ve no idea what this means? Can someone help me understand this?

    Posted:
    Don White, Custom BB&FC,ย 2 step muscle backs.
    Golds Factory raw Oil Can MB's
    Mizuno Mp-33, TP-18
    Cameron SCAD' 05, 2/18.
    Cameron 009
    Cameron Napa Grapes.
    1/1 Kari Lajosi Damascus/TEL.
    James Ingles & Scott Readman handmade
    Golds Factory Private Stock no.1.
    Odyssey Dual Force 440.
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  • MaineMarinerMaineMariner Members  846WRX Points: 538Posts: 846 Golden Tee
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    I think he's looking at the graph as basically a top-down view of the hole. So if you placed the hole at "2.4" on the y-axis and "0" on the x-axis, that big clump of balls at "2.5"/"0" on the left chart would have been "made" putts. I don't think that's quite what is being measured or pictured in the graph, though.

    Posted:
    Callaway Big Bertha Fusion driver
    Callaway Big Bertha Fusion 3 wood
    Srixon Z H45 3 & 4 hybrids
    Srixon Z 565 irons, 5 - AW
    Callaway MD3 S Grind 54 deg.
    Callaway MD4 W Grind 60 deg.
    Ping Heppler ZB3
  • nova6868nova6868 Members  5011WRX Points: 344Handicap: 2.1Posts: 5,011 Titanium Tees
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    I think he's just saying that if you're used to a smooth face putter and you bring the grooves into play you may initially leave lots of putts short that otherwise would have gone in. I seem to recall Poulter having this exact problem when he tried the Evnroll. Then he walked off the 18th green and handed it to a fan. ๐Ÿ˜„๐Ÿ˜†

    I also agree with MaineMariner, looking especially at putts that are 20mm from the sweetspot just isn't very relevant. It's cool for the data but the majority of golfers are not missing their putter sweet spot by an inch.

    Posted:
  • cadoipicadoipi Members  99WRX Points: 73Posts: 99 Fairways
    Joined:  #10

    Let's assume in the experiment that the velocity of the putter face at impact was held constant. The key point then is the red putter has much better distance control compared to the blue putter.

    If the hole was at 2.4m, then if the red putter had ~5% more velocity then all putts would have been made. In order for the shortest blue putts to be made, then velocity would need to be increased ~10% and at that point perhaps some of the center hit putts would bounce out of the hole since the ball went too fast.

    One could argue from this that the blue putter is actually superiour to the red putter, since one could purposely hit the ball off the toe on fast/downhill putts to gain more precision (provided directionallity was not effected).

    Posted:
  • bripgall3265bripgall3265 DenverMembers  276WRX Points: 125Handicap: 10Posts: 276 Greens
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    The big difference for me with Yes!, and Evenroll is that I had distance control issues.. Almost a "hot" or "springy" feel to it for me. Awesome feeling putters. Major adjustment for me.

    Posted:

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  • CougarRedCougarRed Southeast TexasMembers  211WRX Points: 113Handicap: 6.4Posts: 211 Fairways
    Joined:  edited Jun 30, 2020 12:06pm #12

    Another interesting study from the guys at Cleveland:

    exploration of center of gravity moment of inertia and launch direction for putters

    They took a 360g adjustable head putter and compared:

    1. An MOI configurarion of 4000 where all the weight (i.e. center of gravity) was forward;
    2. An MOI configuration of 4800 where a lot of the weight was pushed back (pushing the center of gravity back away from the face).


    They studied mishits of 15mm from center face. Almost 0.6"

    They found that first configuration, with the lower MOI and the CG forward, produced straighter mishits. Average launch angle from square reduction was almost half.


    This is the technical basis for their new Frontline models. In addition to bringing the CG forward with their heel/toe tungsten face inserts to improve accuracy across the face, the hitting area features the SOFT face groove technology referenced above to equalize distances across the face.


    Posted:

    Vote for your favorite Houston public course!

    Accessible SE Texas Courses I Would Play Again
    In order of distance from downtown
    Memorial Park (renovated)*
    Gus Wortham (renovated)*
    Cypresswood Tradition*
    Blackhorse South*
    Eagle Pointe*
    The Wilderness*
    Walden Lake Conroe
    Crown Colony

    * - Regular Rotation

    Still Need to Try
    In order of distance from downtown
    Golf Club of Houston
    Blackhorse North
    High Meadow Ranch
    Woodforest

  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
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  • nova6868nova6868 Members  5011WRX Points: 344Handicap: 2.1Posts: 5,011 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #13

    I agree, for me this design is just as forgiving as mallets. I wish PING would get back to this idea.



    Posted:
  • Leftlove94Leftlove94 Members  29WRX Points: 17Posts: 29 Bunkers
    Joined:  #14

    I’ve always thought the idea was intriguing, but it I’m hitting the ball off the sweetspot, I’m probably off-plane too. If the ball goes in the hole it’s out of luck that my misread and mishit negated each other.

    Posted:
  • KentendoKentendo Members  49WRX Points: 42Posts: 49 Bunkers
    Joined:  #15

    This is exactly what I think about variable grooves. I am a very average putter who will still miss a 4 footer like everyone else. I use impact tape on the face for feedback, and it shows that I have a very tight impact pattern even with my lack of skill. My wife is a non-golfer who has a putter to plink around on our putting green for fun. She has a pretty tight impact pattern when measured with impact tape.

    I can get behind the forward roll tech of an insert, but variable face milling is a gimmick.

    Posted:

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  • ebrasmus21ebrasmus21 Serial Shanker CAMembers  6173WRX Points: 1,905Handicap: 2.7Posts: 6,173 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #16

    Going from my Circa ‘62 Scotty into an Evnroll was a huge adjustment. I putted like crap for a while because the face felt dead compared to the Scotty.

    After I got used to the feel my putting improved a lot and I consider the Evnroll to be the best golf club I’ve ever purchased.

    Posted:
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    TM M3 - Rogue Silver 110MSI 70S
    21* Fourteen Type 7 Driving Iron - HZRDUS Black 6.5 105g
    4 - PW Mizuno MP 18 MMC - SteelFiber FC115
    50, 54, 60 RC Dual Bite - SteelFiber i125
    Evnroll ER5
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  • Z1ggy16Z1ggy16 Members  9749WRX Points: 1,650Posts: 9,749 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #17

    Even though I put little value in MyGulfSpy studies, for some reason Evnroll didn't crush it in testing this year like they've done in the past. I have an ER5 myself but like you... I just couldn't get speed control down, but also I just... don't like how it sounds. It has a kind of "ting" to it which really doesn't leave me wanting to come back for more. I reaaaallly want an ER1.2 but I know they'll probably never do it in LH.

    If I could ever find a used SIK Flo, I would definitely try one of those out. On almost every putter fitting I've had... from 10ft and in I usually strike the middle, but I struggle more with vertical contact on the face, with a tendency to hit it high on the face.

    Posted:
    D - SIM Max 9* Tour Z Xtreme 465
    4w - SIM Ti Diamana B 80
    5w - Speedzone FX 2.0 380 or Speedzone 4i Modus 105
    818H1 Tensei White 90
    Irons - P760 5-PW | Modus 120
    Glide 3.0 50/54/58 S400 Tour Issue
    Huntington Beach #1 or Toulon San Diego
    Ball - BXS


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  • GeorgeHWBGeorgeHWB Members  2167WRX Points: 1,619Posts: 2,167 Platinum Tees
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    I think most of these putting studies are more about marketing than actually getting the ball into the hole in fewer strokes.

    Posted:
  • ebrasmus21ebrasmus21 Serial Shanker CAMembers  6173WRX Points: 1,905Handicap: 2.7Posts: 6,173 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #19

    Just goes to show “to each his own”

    I like the sound :)

    one guy at my club has a sik and it looks pretty cool. It’s like a Bryson armlock prototype. Man those are expensive

    Posted:
    G400 LST - TPT proto
    TM M3 - Rogue Silver 110MSI 70S
    21* Fourteen Type 7 Driving Iron - HZRDUS Black 6.5 105g
    4 - PW Mizuno MP 18 MMC - SteelFiber FC115
    50, 54, 60 RC Dual Bite - SteelFiber i125
    Evnroll ER5
    Snell MTB Black
  • oneaugustaoneaugusta Members  3213WRX Points: 277Handicap: 8.7Posts: 3,213 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #20

    Way to much science for me. I aim it correctly, put a good stroke on it and sometimes it goes in the hole.

    Posted:
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  • CougarRedCougarRed Southeast TexasMembers  211WRX Points: 113Handicap: 6.4Posts: 211 Fairways
    Joined:  edited Jul 1, 2020 7:49am #21

    In the past, Ping has released models with tungsten weighting in the heel and toe. The Isopur 2 models and the JAS WTi models. Except for the type of face insert, the Isopur 2 looks similar in concept to the Cleveland Frontline...


    Posted:

    Vote for your favorite Houston public course!

    Accessible SE Texas Courses I Would Play Again
    In order of distance from downtown
    Memorial Park (renovated)*
    Gus Wortham (renovated)*
    Cypresswood Tradition*
    Blackhorse South*
    Eagle Pointe*
    The Wilderness*
    Walden Lake Conroe
    Crown Colony

    * - Regular Rotation

    Still Need to Try
    In order of distance from downtown
    Golf Club of Houston
    Blackhorse North
    High Meadow Ranch
    Woodforest

  • kb7kb7 Members  18WRX Points: 19Handicap: 16Posts: 18 Bunkers
    Joined:  #22

    As a younger golfer I used a Zing with the TR face. Off center strikes were common since I was a young, dumb kid and I remember off center hits rolling out pretty well. Since moving to milled putters I go back to the old Ping from time to time and it just feels way too soft. Even with a dead center strike, you have to hammer the ball.

    Posted:
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  • shadowpottsshadowpotts Members  7WRX Points: 40Posts: 7 Bunkers
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    So many variables, but interesting from a computer based standardization.

    Posted:

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