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Low Trajectory - is it a problem?

 MarkTheSark ·  
MarkTheSarkMarkTheSark Members  59WRX Points: 26Handicap: WorkPosts: 59 Bunkers
Joined:  in Equipment #1

Hey..... Wierd situation here....

I moved to Wilson C200 irons with a stiff flex from Ping ISI with a regular flex...... Even with 20 ish newer year technology, it's the same distance, and way lower ball flight.....That, or the C200's Centre of Gravity is at the top of the club head - but more than likely it's the shaft.. I am realizing that I probably don't swing fast enough for a stiff... My theory is that I don't generate enough whip/torque for the shaft to move. Maybe I'm right? Maybe Im wrong. Who knows.


In any event, I'm trying to sell my irons, and having no luck, thinking I'll likely be stuck with them for the forseeable future. If that's the case, is there a downside to a low trajectory flight? The balls though, do stop remarkably well suprisingly with these clubs. Obviously, the wind hurts/helps you - and getting over trees can be an issue....


Any other downside? Just trying to justify keeping the clubs, or drastically lowering the price of the irons to move to a R flex. There's no other money in the budget for new wrenches.

Posted:

Driver - Callaway Razr Fit Xtreme

5 Wood - Taylor Made AeroBurner

3 Hybrid - Wilson HB5

4-PW - Hogan BH5

GW, SW - Titleist Vokey

Putter - Yes! Eleanor

Ball - Wilson fifty

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Comments

  • HehatemeHehateme Members  569WRX Points: 90Handicap: 2.1Posts: 569 Golden Tee
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    Okay honestly, I don't know what you are asking. If you can't afford new irons, no shame in that, then why are you asking if low flight is okay? Based on your post, stiff is too much shaft for you and you are stuck with a low ball flight. I do know that Edwin Watts currently has 150% trade in--

    Posted:
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  • SkiSchoolProSkiSchoolPro Members  858WRX Points: 130Handicap: 4Posts: 858 Golden Tee
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    For irons, I think the main issues with low ball flight is less stopping power and long irons that don't carry far enough. If these are not issues for you, there are actually advatages to low ball flight in some conditions.

    Posted:
  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  25291WRX Points: 1,764Posts: 25,291 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Jun 29, 2020 5:04pm #4

    Your theory about how shaft flex works is not correct. When swung properly, the shaft actually adds very little to the dynamic loft at impact, especially in irons. There is no inherent need for any amount of whip and any flex can be used for any swing speed. That is if a robot was doing the swinging.

    With people the problems can come from the feel and how that might effect the way you swing and how you deliver the club into impact. But everyone is different. Some people can swing any stiffness and get the same result but some can be fairly sensitive. So one possibility is that the stiffer feel is causing you to swing differently in a way that is delivering less dynamic loft into impact.

    Now sometimes it's possible to adjust your swing to get used to the the different feel but it's not always easy. IF you are trying to force more torque or whip because you think the shaft needs it, then the first step would be to stop it. And that's actually a fairly common reaction to playing a shaft that's too stiff (so you wouldn't be alone). When a player is used to feeling a certain amount of loading in the shaft, and suddenly it's gone, they tend to try to force the shaft to feel the way they are used to and the swing usually suffers because of it. So just try to convince yourself that it's ok that it will feel a lot stiffer and that's not really a problem.

    Posted:
    Post edited by Stuart_G on
  • MtlJeffMtlJeff MontrealMembers  29836WRX Points: 2,831Handicap: 0.0Posts: 29,836 Titanium Tees
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    low ball flight is not great with long irons if you have to fly hazards and hold greens. But that's been it for me mostly....i have a low ball flight.

    With 6 iron and up i don't find any issues. I don't see how you could hit a 6 iron or 7 iron too low considering how much those irons spin. Even a lower ball flight should hold greens

    Posted:
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    Ping G410 LST 14.5 w/ Ping Tour 75
    Ping G400 Crossover 20 w/KBS Tour Proto Hybrid
    Ping G410 4-SW w/S300
    Ping Glide 3.0 Eye2 60 w/S300
    Odyssey O-Works Red Tank #7
  • Cpk23Cpk23 Members  75WRX Points: 61Posts: 75 Fairways
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    I think it has more to do with your angle of attack and difference in how the new clubs are contacting the turf

    Posted:

    Titleist 915 D3 9.5* (Aldila Rogue Silver 110 MSI 70 X Flex)
    Tour Edge Exotics XCG V 15* (Matrix Black Tie 7M3 X Flex)
    Nike Forged Blades 3-PW (Dynamic Gold X100)
    Mac Daddy 4 Chrome 52 S/ 56 C/ 60 X (Dynamic Gold S400)
    Scotty Cameron Circa 62 Model 3
    Titleist Pro V1x

  • MyherobobhopeMyherobobhope hey there, blimpy boy. Flying through the sky so fancy free. Members  3187WRX Points: 816Handicap: 6Posts: 3,187 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #7

    I played moonballs for years... killed me in the wind, and wasn't ideal... but didn't have the budget to get new irons (I still don't, but I didn't then either)... You can work on path to hit them higher or just play the game you brought. If they are stopping on greens, it sounds like you have enough spin on them... Wind becomes less of a factor, but you'll have to bend it around trees instead of over them. Hopefully, that isn't an issue all that often.

    No shame in playing the clubs you have and making them work... hopefully, it will make you a better golf when you CAN get the clubs you want, as you will learn how to play the shots you can hit instead of trying to his shots you can't hit (like over trees)

    Posted:

    As of 6/5/20
    9.5 Cobra LTD Pro with Aldila Silver 110 X
    13 Degree Adams Speedline with Aldila Alpha X
    18 Degree Adams A12 with Proforce X
    6-PW Adams CMB with Project X 6.0
    5 iron Sub70 639 CB with S400
    4 iron / utility Sub 70 699 with Proforce 85 gram X
    50, 54, 60 Vokeys
    Tank Counter Balance #7
    Driver and Putter are set for now. Wedges are safe for time being.

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  • scooterhd2scooterhd2 Members  1007WRX Points: 353Handicap: 7Posts: 1,007 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Jun 29, 2020 6:49pm #8

    whats shafts are in the clubs? If they are the stock KBS Tour 90, I'd work on fixing the indian and not fixing the arrow. The C200s are meant to launch high.


    edit: typo saying C200s arent meant to launch high. I meant they are meant to launch high. very low COG. Paired with the Tour 90s, most players would find this combo to be very high launch. Balloon combination for higher swing speeds.

    Posted:
    Post edited by scooterhd2 on

    Ping G410+ 9*, Tensei Pro Orange

    Adams XTD Ti 17*, Fubuki

    Apex 20*, AD DI 85

    Srixon U85 23*, AD DI 95

    Srixon 585 5-6, Nippon 120

    Srixon 785 7-PW, Nippon 120

    Ping Glide 3.0 52*, Nippon 120

    TM Hi Toe 56*&60*, Nippon 120

    Evnroll ER3

  • MarkTheSarkMarkTheSark Members  59WRX Points: 26Handicap: WorkPosts: 59 Bunkers
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    Thanks everyone for the correction, and feedback. Greatly appreciated. Gives me a few ideas to look at.

    Posted:

    Driver - Callaway Razr Fit Xtreme

    5 Wood - Taylor Made AeroBurner

    3 Hybrid - Wilson HB5

    4-PW - Hogan BH5

    GW, SW - Titleist Vokey

    Putter - Yes! Eleanor

    Ball - Wilson fifty

  • MarkTheSarkMarkTheSark Members  59WRX Points: 26Handicap: WorkPosts: 59 Bunkers
    Joined:  #10
    Posted:

    Driver - Callaway Razr Fit Xtreme

    5 Wood - Taylor Made AeroBurner

    3 Hybrid - Wilson HB5

    4-PW - Hogan BH5

    GW, SW - Titleist Vokey

    Putter - Yes! Eleanor

    Ball - Wilson fifty

  • MarkTheSarkMarkTheSark Members  59WRX Points: 26Handicap: WorkPosts: 59 Bunkers
    Joined:  #11
    Posted:

    Driver - Callaway Razr Fit Xtreme

    5 Wood - Taylor Made AeroBurner

    3 Hybrid - Wilson HB5

    4-PW - Hogan BH5

    GW, SW - Titleist Vokey

    Putter - Yes! Eleanor

    Ball - Wilson fifty

  • ThreeBoxersThreeBoxers Members  234WRX Points: 77Posts: 234 Fairways
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    This. I play Tour 90's, for me higher is better. I gained probably 20' of peak height from working on maintaining spine angle through impact.

    Posted:
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  • scooterhd2scooterhd2 Members  1007WRX Points: 353Handicap: 7Posts: 1,007 Platinum Tees
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    Shaft chart from KBS. Tour 90's are one of their highest launching shafts. C200s arent much stronger lofted than the Ping ISI's either, so that wouldnt count too much for the lower trajectory. I suspect you are having some impact issues. I'd work with you have and learn to raise the ball flight if you want to to. I think you have the right tools in your hands to do so.



    Posted:

    Ping G410+ 9*, Tensei Pro Orange

    Adams XTD Ti 17*, Fubuki

    Apex 20*, AD DI 85

    Srixon U85 23*, AD DI 95

    Srixon 585 5-6, Nippon 120

    Srixon 785 7-PW, Nippon 120

    Ping Glide 3.0 52*, Nippon 120

    TM Hi Toe 56*&60*, Nippon 120

    Evnroll ER3

  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers  16851WRX Points: 1,014Handicap: 4-5Posts: 16,851 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Jun 29, 2020 7:23pm #14

    @MarkTheSark - The prevailing chatter trends evolve around high trajectory to hold greens. I play Titleist 620MB&CB 3-PW with Steelfiber Stiff 110g & 125g shafts, ProV1 ball and generally hit low-mid trajectory shots using spin to stop the ball on greens. There is NO downside to low-trajectory shots unless a person isn't using a ball that spins and or can't apply enough smack to the ball to create spin; which is what stops the ball on the green. Ball spin is all about shaft tip, ball characteristics and how SS and the club head impacts the ball. I play to 4-5 index.

    PS, from what I know, by design Wilson C200 heads tend to be high trajectory. If you're hitting them stiff shafts lower than your previous irons, only concern yourself if club distance is shorter than your other irons.

    Posted:
    Titleist TS2 9.5, Ventus 5 "S"
    Titleist TS2 16.5*, Ventus 7 "S"
    Titleist 718 T-MB 17* 2i, Steelfiber i110 "S"
    Titleist 620 CB/MB 3i-PW, Steelfiber i110/i125 "S"
    SM6 F-52/8, Steelfiber i125 "S"
    SM6 M-58/8, DG-S200
    SC California Monterey
    ProV1 & AVX



  • scooterhd2scooterhd2 Members  1007WRX Points: 353Handicap: 7Posts: 1,007 Platinum Tees
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    good point in here about spin, but also a higher spin might raise the flight as well.

    Posted:

    Ping G410+ 9*, Tensei Pro Orange

    Adams XTD Ti 17*, Fubuki

    Apex 20*, AD DI 85

    Srixon U85 23*, AD DI 95

    Srixon 585 5-6, Nippon 120

    Srixon 785 7-PW, Nippon 120

    Ping Glide 3.0 52*, Nippon 120

    TM Hi Toe 56*&60*, Nippon 120

    Evnroll ER3

  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers  16851WRX Points: 1,014Handicap: 4-5Posts: 16,851 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Jun 29, 2020 7:54pm #16

    That's true. Higher ball spin can raise the trajectory but high spin doesn't normally happen by itself. If it did my trajectory would be much higher with ProV1, yet its not. I attribute that to my swing and not hitting the ball as hard as I can. With irons I figure my SS is about 90%. The harder I hit the ball, through, the higher the ball spin and trajectory. We're talking about distance and trajectory control which is done though swing mechanics, club configuration and ball characteristics. Least that's how I see it.

    Posted:
    Titleist TS2 9.5, Ventus 5 "S"
    Titleist TS2 16.5*, Ventus 7 "S"
    Titleist 718 T-MB 17* 2i, Steelfiber i110 "S"
    Titleist 620 CB/MB 3i-PW, Steelfiber i110/i125 "S"
    SM6 F-52/8, Steelfiber i125 "S"
    SM6 M-58/8, DG-S200
    SC California Monterey
    ProV1 & AVX



  • clinkinfoclinkinfo Members  869WRX Points: 205Posts: 869 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Jun 29, 2020 8:04pm #17

    I’d be surprised if the shaft alone is causing that dramatic a launch change. Are the club lofts the same? I suspect the new irons and shafts are actually weighted differently. And when playing your original irons, you would likely be neutral or even add dynamic loft, and the new iron weighting is causing a more dramatic deloft at impact. This is pretty common, especially when some players move to an overall heavier setup. Sometimes we actually want this to happen and put them in a heavier setup on purpose, to try and get it to happen. But that’s just a guess


    as others have said, the only “downside” to a low trajectory is carrying hazards or greens with enough stopping power to hold. If you can hold the greens, doesn’t matter much (although you might be giving up some theoretical distance with each iron as well because of a non-optimized flight)

    Posted:
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  • Man_O_WarMan_O_War Members  3691WRX Points: 696Posts: 3,691 Titanium Tees
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    i personally prefer vertical take off shots from my SW to my Driver... High and rising higher....

    Posted:
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    Cobra LTD PRO Ozik TP6HD

    Cobra F9 Avalanche 3/4 Atmos 7
    Cobra F9 Avalanche 5/6 Atmos 7
    TM Mid_Rescue TP 22*
    Ping iBlade 3-pw DG XP S300/Original Nike Blades 3-PW s300
    RTX 3.0 50, 54, 58 Modus 120
    TM Spider DJ Sightline Black Tour Spider 
    2020 TOUR B XS
  • MarkTheSarkMarkTheSark Members  59WRX Points: 26Handicap: WorkPosts: 59 Bunkers
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    It's funny.... My Wilsons are stronger lofted than my 20 year old Ping ISIs....


    Yardges are pretty much identical, with much less trajectory from the C200s.... Really wierd. Just changed them in the off season.

    Posted:

    Driver - Callaway Razr Fit Xtreme

    5 Wood - Taylor Made AeroBurner

    3 Hybrid - Wilson HB5

    4-PW - Hogan BH5

    GW, SW - Titleist Vokey

    Putter - Yes! Eleanor

    Ball - Wilson fifty

  • MarkTheSarkMarkTheSark Members  59WRX Points: 26Handicap: WorkPosts: 59 Bunkers
    Joined:  #20
    Posted:

    Driver - Callaway Razr Fit Xtreme

    5 Wood - Taylor Made AeroBurner

    3 Hybrid - Wilson HB5

    4-PW - Hogan BH5

    GW, SW - Titleist Vokey

    Putter - Yes! Eleanor

    Ball - Wilson fifty

  • Snowman9000Snowman9000 Members  1384WRX Points: 287Handicap: 10Posts: 1,384 Platinum Tees
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    I guess Stuart sees many golfers, but I only see my own game. And for me, at a low 75 MPH irons swing, shafts definitely affect height. I'm sure part of it is my body's reaction to the different shaft loading, but there is definitely a contribution by the shaft itself. Again, just one man's observation.

    Posted:
    M4 Driver
    5 Wood
    22º, 25º Hybrids
    4, 6-GW basic GI irons, weak lofts and +1/2" for more speed and launch
    54º, 58º Wedges
    Odyssey Jailbird Mini
  • trileriantrilerian Members  611WRX Points: 147Handicap: 13.1Posts: 611 Golden Tee
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    When I got fitted for my irons a few years back, different shafts definitely made a difference in ball apex. With stiff flex shafts I was apexing 70-75’. With regular shafts my apex was about 100’. With KBS Tour V regular, apex was at 90’. Those are what we settled on. Swing speed with a 7i is 83-85 mph and spin right around 6200.

    All this said, I like a higher ball flight. When you hear the spin of the golf ball followed by a towering flight, you know it was a good shot well before it landed.

    Posted:
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  • pkshooterpkshooter Members  1594WRX Points: 73Handicap: 6Posts: 1,594 Platinum Tees
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    Do you go right back to higher ball fight when you go back to a swing with your old clubs? Just trying to rule out that maybe something has changed in your swing. I’ve gone through periods without making any club changes where I hit it high and then get in a funk where I hit low.

    Posted:
    Ping G410 9* Alta CB
    Ping G410 15* Alta CB
    Ping G410 19* Hybrid Alta CB
    Ping G25 23* Hybrid TFC Stiff
    Ping G 5-UW N.S. Pro Modus3 105
    Ping Glide 3.0 Eye 54*, 58*ES
    Ping Anser Milled
    WITB Link
  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  25291WRX Points: 1,764Posts: 25,291 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Jun 30, 2020 10:40am #24

    I didn't say there wasn't a contribution from the shaft, I just said it was small compared to how much the change in feel has the potential to effect the swing. If someone has a fast enough swing speed AND a late enough release, they might be able to get a few degrees out of the shaft in a mid-iron. But an am with an early release wont see much of anything. In general even for the late release, it might be enough to be noticeable on an LM, but really not much more than a tweak of the flight than a major change to the ball flight like the OP is describing.

    Just my opinion, but I think the bigger problem is its' hard for people to believe how much the feel of the equipment can effect their swing - especially since it feels to them like they are swinging exactly the same. But like many other things in golf, feel isn't always real.

    Posted:
    Post edited by Stuart_G on
  • MarkTheSarkMarkTheSark Members  59WRX Points: 26Handicap: WorkPosts: 59 Bunkers
    Joined:  #25

    Absolutely do. I played a round a few days ago with another set of Callaways (XR Pro) with a regular steel shaft, and they just ballooned, AND they were longer than my Wilson's by a club.

    Posted:

    Driver - Callaway Razr Fit Xtreme

    5 Wood - Taylor Made AeroBurner

    3 Hybrid - Wilson HB5

    4-PW - Hogan BH5

    GW, SW - Titleist Vokey

    Putter - Yes! Eleanor

    Ball - Wilson fifty

  • DLev45DLev45 Members  411WRX Points: 228Handicap: 7.2Posts: 411 Greens
    Joined:  edited Jun 30, 2020 3:40pm #26

    Forgive my ignorance, but I am about to get my first full bag fitting and this seems like a pretty good thread to ask what is "too high" and what is "too low?" I assume there are ideal numbers based on swing speed, apex, spin, launch angle, and descent angle?

    Wouldn't everyone be chasing ideal parameters in the first place? So if someone is hitting it "too high", they get fit for a lower launch profile shaft, whereas someone who is hitting it "too low" would try out some higher launch profile shafts, but they would be aiming for the same ballpark in terms of launch and flight characteristics, would they not?

    I really just have no basis for judging, and I have never hit my own clubs on a Trackman so I don't really know any of those metrics for what I am currently gaming.

    Posted:
    • Driver Swing Speed: 100-105mph
    • Ping G400 Max 10.5, Ping Alta CB 55 Stiff (44.5")
    • TaylorMade 2016 M2 3W HL, TM Reax 55 Regular (42.5")
    • Ping G 3h/4h, Ping Alta 70 Regular
    • Callaway Apex CF16 (5-GW), TT XP 95 R300
    • Ping Glide 2.0 Stealth (54/SS, 58/ES), Ping AWT 2.0 Wedge
    • TaylorMade Spider X Navy, 35"

  • talktoafadetalktoafade Members  13WRX Points: 21Posts: 13 Bunkers
    Joined:  #27

    Depends!

    Suggestions on mid to long irons or full set that will help me get more height on the longer irons?

    My natural swing that got me to 9 hcp is a low draw. If I played a links course every day, it would be money all the time.

    In the Pacific NW, that flight is good from now through Sept, when the ground is drier. The rest of the year it's costing me a ton of distance.

    I can hit it higher with my current irons (Mizuno MP68 with DG R300) if I weaken my grip or move the ball foward and fade it, but that's not my swing and it falls apart...and gives up distance.

    Short irons are not an issue. Low is good. The swing/flight also works with hybrids and fairway woods and driver -- a strong, boring trajectory.

    My conclusion is I need a set of irons with which I can hit 7-5 or 4 higher while keeping PW-8 low.

    Played a few holes at the end of a round yesterday with my setpdad's Ping Zing 2s. Even those are noticeably and markedly better than the Mizzy blades with the mid to long irons for someone like me with lowish/avg. swing speed (~95mph with driver).

    Posted:
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  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  25291WRX Points: 1,764Posts: 25,291 Titanium Tees
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    There really is no ideal for irons. With a driver you can use the distance to determine an optimal value, but with irons you can't. So with irons it really comes down to what's the best balance between the distance gaps for your particular set make-up. And what you might want for a trade-off between distance and distance control (roll out on the green). Higher launch, more spin and steeper decent angle means less roll out and better distance control - but it also means less carry distance. Everyone really has to find their own best balance for their game and the typical course conditions they might play.

    Posted:
  • dcfasdcfas Capital Region, NY Members  1055WRX Points: 195Posts: 1,055 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #29

    If you wanted to try an adjustment in your swing for height, try tilting your torso away from the target as you set up and swing. Right shoulder lower than left (if right handed swing). It’s an adjustment but surprising how effective it is in creating a higher trajectory.

    Posted:

    Mixed bag includes TM, Mizuno, Ping, Cleveland, and Guerin Rife.

  • scooterhd2scooterhd2 Members  1007WRX Points: 353Handicap: 7Posts: 1,007 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #30

    There are ideal numbers to maximize carry. Think of a catapult that shoot at 100mph. You can aim it up and down like angry birds, but mathematically there is one launch angle that shoots the canon further than any other angle. And that launch angle produces a certain height or apex that yields to the furthest distance. But this height can be affected by many different factors. Change the speed and the apex changes. Change the spin and the apex changes. Change the drag of the projectile and the apex changes. Change the weather conditions and the apex changes. ETC.

    Here's the basic target apex based on swing speed with a 6 iron.

    TrackMan Optimizer Values

    6 iron (optimized for carry and landing angle)

    • @ 95 mph club speed = height of 36 yards
    • @ 85 mph club speed = height of 32 yards
    • @ 75 mph club speed = height of 26 yards
    • @ 65 mph club speed = height of 19 yards


    That being said, these are just parameters to work around. Different equipment and different swings will produce different launch and spin. Not to mention people have different playing styles or preferences or play certain courses or in certain weather conditions that set up better for a different ball flight. But if you are well off the ideal numbers, than you may have want to revisit your equipment but probably look at your swing as well.

    Posted:

    Ping G410+ 9*, Tensei Pro Orange

    Adams XTD Ti 17*, Fubuki

    Apex 20*, AD DI 85

    Srixon U85 23*, AD DI 95

    Srixon 585 5-6, Nippon 120

    Srixon 785 7-PW, Nippon 120

    Ping Glide 3.0 52*, Nippon 120

    TM Hi Toe 56*&60*, Nippon 120

    Evnroll ER3

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  • BraxtonFullertonBraxtonFullerton Members  102WRX Points: 51Handicap: 21Posts: 102 Fairways
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    Reading through this thread; I think you're experiencing the transition from what you're used to, to what you have now. I went from a traditional lofted set from the mid 2000s into Cobra F8s last year; my trajectory flattened out and I was having trouble spinning the ball enough to hold greens, but I was still seeing extra distance since my swing speed could handle it. I think the head/shaft weight difference is causing most of what you're seeing and feeling, with about 3 degrees stronger loft on the C200s compared to the ISIs, I think you're leaving some distance on the table with those shafts.

    The fact that you've picked up a club when you go back to your old set tells me you're de-lofting the old clubs more due to the shift in your swing due to the headweight, and if you're de-lofting with the C200s you're probably losing distance because of it.

    Posted:

    Taylormade SIM Max 9° Driver

    Cobra King F8 5W

    Cobra King F8 One Length 4 Hybrid

    Wilson Staff FG Tour V6 irons 5-PW

    Callaway MD5 50° GW

    Cleveland RTX 2.0 54° & 58°

    Seemore FGP Putter

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