Backswing confusion

Trying to get better by changing my backswing (which in turn changes the downswing) has been nothing short of a nightmare.

My normal backswing I have used for 25 years is letting the club open up in the backswing, get the club behind me slightly, use that lag on the downswing. Its been ok for me, im currently a 5 hcp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5tHG_z7c4QMy quest to get better and shoot under par consistently has led me to instructors who all were adamant that the club must stay pointed at the ball longer. They would even rather have the face slightly hooded at P1 than open.

I have tried this for over one year now, and cannot get it to work. The club is much too in front of me, too hard to generate lag, hard to find the bottom of my arc which leads to fat/thin. the only good thing about it for me is that it has eliminated my occasional duck hook. I cant comprehend how guys like Brooks DJ Hovland can swing like this, seems very hard.

However I have noticed that not all PGA pros do that. Some let the club open a bit (see rickie fowler pic) . Some clearly have the toe up at P1.

I have posted about this problem a couple times in the last year and just wanted to know if I can get better keeping my normal swing or if I should stick with this change, even tho it may honestly take years to get better. thanks everyone!

everyone opens the face in the backswing. Your swing opens it a lot. I see the need for you to keep the club head outside the hands more than the face pointing at the ball - that early roll of your forearm that get the club wide open, and club head behind your hands - leads to the across the line at the top, steep pull down, and swipe across the ball - given how open your face is you don't really close it and it is still open by shaft parallel and combined with the steep shaft you need up with the really late rapid closing to hit the ball (and thus the hooks). Your backswing certainly limits yourself - you have two choices 1) make the change to a steep to shallow backswing while keeping the club head outside your hands (which sets up a transition where you can shallow and by doing the motorcycle move close the face early) or 2) find an instructor that can actually get you to transition from your current top the swing and shallow the club and close the face - (which can be more work than making the backswing change since transition is difficult to practice in slo mo as opposed to the backswing).

that takeaway must pose issues for partial shots too - you have no where near the time to recover to hit shots between 30-100 yards - unless you are doing something different for those shots.

would help to see a swing where you are attempting this current change - assuming the one posted is not it.

There's a range on tour of club being toe up to club being more square to target (slightly closed).

You have the toe open and the club way inside by P2. No one on tour does that.

It looks like you start the swing with the hands / arms. As opposed to using more of the shoulders / chest to do the takeaway. With a lot of early forearm rotation.

As one that has recently gone through what you are trying to do. Rebuilt my swing after getting down to a 2-5 for many years. Find your patience. Understand it's a process. Understand cause and affect.

1) Cause and Affect - changing your takeaway - will affect the rest of your swing. It's a sequence. Changing something early in the chain, changes the rest of the chain. Whether your trying to or not.

2) Early Forearm Rotation - this is what brings that club inside and open. Use your shoulders / chest for the takeaway. The wrist hinge you have is fine, but with early forearm rotation it's sucking the club inside. Getting rid of that forearm rotation to start the swing - will keep the club in front of you, then use the same wrist hinge to get the club up. If you are at address and cock your wrists up - so the club goes straight up - that's the hinge you are using now. Problem is - you rotate your forearms so much - that when you do that hinge - it goes behind you. Get a more solid takeaway with limited forearm rotation to P2, then start to hinge the wrists. It will keep the club in front of you. Compare yourself to Ricky up there.

3) New Takeaway Changes Top Position - You'll feel different at the top - because you are. Hopefully get a little more flex in the trail wrist and flatter lead wrist. It's going to eventually require you to shallow the club in transition to avoid coming OTT.

Bottom Line - Toe up is fine - but club has to be in front of you. Need to stop rolling the forearms to start the swing.

Side Note - It took me a little over 2 years to feel like my swing was solid again after starting the rebuild. It's a frustrating, long journey. But can be very rewarding in the end.

Another Side Note - you got a lot of good stuff going on. You got a good move in transition. Start fixing things early in the sequence first, then move on to the next sequence.

Thank you both for the great insight. I will work on the first move away from the ball and overall a steep to swallow arc. Its interesting, they are comparing the backswing and downswing arcs on pga tour coverage now.

They did phil and DJ last weekend and they were both clearly steep back, shallow down.

This is a pic from my lesson with Dan C last year. the "before" looks horrid, but the after is much better. just gotta put it in the work. and thx for the compliments on what im doing "right" in the swing.

Some of the biggest hitters in the game open(ed) the clubface early, like Mike Austin, John Daly and Tony Finau.

Also, all pros fan the club open early on short swings it only on the longer swings when they want to get more weight on their right side as far as I can tell.

It's no easy change to make and something I continue working on. Can you post more stills? I'm curious to see how the P2-P3 change affected P4-P5, in particular.

You're second paragraph is completely incorrect.

What part is incorrect? As far as I've seen pros swinging quarter and half swings out of the bunkers or close to the green open the club face quickly. If you have some examples that this is not the case let me know so I can check it out on youtube.

No sorry those are the only pics i have right now.

Playing with an open clubface is indeed a disease and instructors are now saying it is the most common problem they are seeing from amateurs.

i have only been able to manage it by good timing and power

You should be swinging the club on an inclined plane. Imagine you have your head in the center of a hula hoop and the hula hoop is on the inclined plane which is the plane from the ball to the base of your neck, C7. Now turn and make the hula hoop conform to that plane.

Simplistically speaking, the shoulders and hips are wheels and the spine is the axle.

His shoulders are going one way and the club is going another way and the club face is on a plane 4 feet above the ball. He's immensely talented but has a lot of moving parts in his swing to compensate for his flaws. In other words, he's perfected his imperfections.

Shaft and shoulders are in sync and the shaft is on the same plane as the left arm which is excellent. However the club face should be on the same plane or looking at the ball instead of the sky.

I think they open the face at address for those shots then just make a shorter version of their normal swing

for those shots i like to take the club outside and swing out to in like Couples. you get the ball up in the air really quickly that way and it lands really soft with spin. not all pros do that though

For the bunker shot yes, but not short swings from the fairway. The forearm has to rotate to line up the bones and arms in the left arm, some do it early, others do it later.

Not sure what you mean by short swings. But typically from 60 yards and in your going to see a lot of variation depending on the type of shot they are trying to hit. If you want the ball to run out, you'll have the face more square or not open. But you'll see inside / outside takeaways, hands forwards, hands neutral, even hands a little back, etc. And more times than not, an open face to some degree at address, which in turn is more open at the P2 position.

I think it's not the best idea to try to compare chip / pitches to full swings.

most definitely the after is way better - much better body rotation etc. when Dan had me do the stick drill it took me 4 months before I could really bring it to the course - and that is after lots of slow speed swings with and without - and learning what I needed to do in my pivot and arms motion - even small setup adjustments - changing the pattern is just the first step followed by refinement.

it is a journey where 1% better every day gets you there versus expecting things to change in a week, or month. Just this past month I made a small adjustment on the tilt in my shins at setup - just making sure I have a bit of ankle flex.

I didn't say I was interested in chipping, only short swings. Do you have an example of a player not trying to hit a flopshot that shows the clubface closed (not due to a strong grip) at the top back of his swing that I can look at?

I don't know what you are asking. And I never said you need to have a closed club face. It depends on the shot.

If you are trying to make a point that the takeaway position in a full swing is different than a chip, pitch, or half swing - then yes that is true. But so is the address position, weight distribution, possibly club face at address, etc etc. Again it depends on the shot, what you are going to do with all those variables.

What I am saying is that all other things being equal(clubface direction, stance direction, shot shape and direction) the left arm rotates earlier in the swing for a 1/4 to 1/2 swing compared to a full swing because the shoulder turn is less yet the clubface still need to be on plane. I am not talking about pitches either.

Played 18 today, tried the steep to shallow swing (just taking it more straight back) and I hit it pretty well. Especially driver. Putted awful but thats another story. Not yanking it inside felt much better. Im still opening the face pretty early, but like you said- small changes first!

Your before looks like you're picking up an axe and swinging it