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Pace of Play and Etiquette


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My son was playing in a tournament recently and one kid consistently would grab his clubs and walk away after he holed his putt. I get the premise and goal especially in AJGA (this wasn't an AJGA, but most of the kids play in many AJGA tournaments) of getting to the tee box and playing ready golf. The problem was this kid was loud and his clubs would clank as he walked by. One time he actually grabbed his clubs from one side of the green and carried them across the green (clanking all the way) right by my son as he was putting. I'm all for increasing pace of play, but this seems to go against basic etiquette and sportsmanship. Compounding this was they would get to the tee box and have to wait on the group ahead all day, so it didn't save any time. My son plays quick golf and always has. He has never been issued a warning or received a red card, but I think it gives the wrong message to kids that they should leave the green while others are putting, especially when it's loud and distracting to the other players. I'm not sure if I'm i the minority or not, but I'm not a fan of kids leaving the green and heading to the next hole until all players have finished.

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I think two points of what I consider "standard etiquette" are worth mentioning (although you cannot change what the kid did during the round in the past and you likely cannot change what the kid will do in the future, assuming you're not the kid's parent and/or don't have a close relationship). First, standard etiquette says to leave your bag between the green you are playing and the next tee box. This eliminates the point about carrying a bag across a green while someone is putting and it generally speeds up play. Second, standard etiquette says to always watch your playing partners finish the hole. This is both respectful and resolves discrepancies about what your partners did or did not score on any given hole--people miss three or four footers all the time. That being said, I play fast and I play ready golf. My bag is always between the green I am playing and the next tee box, or (depending on course layout) I will take the club I am going to hit my tee shot with to the green and leave my bag out of the way somewhere between the next tee box and the next fairway. However, as soon as I am done putting, I promptly walk to the fringe of the green (or even further, but never on the green itself) and watch from there.

Regardless, all you can do is teach your kid to play the right way. You likely won't (and probably shouldn't, even if given the opportunity) have the chance to impart anything on the other kid. If it was truly a distraction, your kid should have said something to the other. Kids often take criticism/advice best from other kids and not from adults, especially adults they aren't related to. Teach your kid to play the game the right/courteous way and teach your kid to speak up (and how to do so respectfully) if someone does something that is distracting or obnoxious. Let the rest fall where it may.

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My son and I were playing the other day and after about 14 holes his pace of play on the green increased. He was not reading his line, not practice swinging for the weight of his put etc. He would hole it and then proceed to grab his bag and go to the next tee. This did disturb me a little (he is 13) so after 2 holes of this I did talk to him about the game etiquette over the last 50 years and that over the past few years the rules for pace of play have indeed changed but the hidden rules of manners and respecting your playing partners has not changed. It is disrespectful to distract by moving or make noises when a player is concentrating to make their shot.

Kids are kids, but in a tournament there should be a foundation of rules and etiquette that kids can learn from and take away good habits to use in everyday golf.

Some kids get it quick, some don't. Little friendly reminders can help. With my son, he needs a lot of reminders, he was right back to his race to the next hole while I was preparing to putt. I think he wanted to get home to play games before it got too late.

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Noise isn't an issue for most of my buddies, so no panties in a wad. And if my son and his buddies are any indication, they are desensitized to surrounding noise or bag chatter so I still wouldn't concern myself. Said politely, let's not teach our son's our bad habits. Let them do what they do and we do what we do.

Edit - FYI: I have played in many regional tournaments and my son played in kids full-field tournaments as an adolescent. He had a few 2nd place finishes too. Neither of us ever encounter the issues talked about in this thread.

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It's pretty darn important to speak clearly and directly about stuff like this, but just make sure you can explain why we do it. Unless the kid/parent relationship is in bad shape, the kid will listen as long as the answer to "why" we do something isn't just "because we always have" or "because it's the rule." Can't get mad at kids for not knowing the rules/etiquette if you don't take the time to explain (not lecture, explain) them on the rules and why it's important to follow them.

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I am all for pace of play but some these tours are crazy and will penalize the whole group. The worst offender for pushing kids I have seen is Florida State. My daughter has successfully stoped a penalty assessment by moving to next tee right after she was finished. She learned she had to do that after she got penalty assessed to the whole group and was told if other players are slowing you need to leave them on the green and proceed to the next hole and observers will take note. Even though it bad etiquette the kids have to do that sometimes. She doesn't do that sort of thing on other tours that she doesn't have to.

The case that was described above I would have hoped one of the playing partners mentioned and then if they didn't comply I would gotten an official. I am pretty sure the kid would have gotten the message. If the tour director and officials don't care about a kid bothering a kid putting it time to find a new tour to play on.

The worst tours are where they oversell kids and pack them on the course. It's the biggest reason you see local junior pga tours have long rounds. I hate paying more for a tournament but it does cut down on overcrowding and time issues on the course.

The few AJGA my kids have played time has never been really an issue and the kids are issued cards if they get behind. It's actually one the better systems I have seen.

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Thanks for the response. I certainly would never talk to another kid about etiquette, especially during a tournament. I told my son after the round that if it bothers him talk to the kid when you're waiting at the next tee box. I don't really blame the kid too much. I think they are being programmed that pace of play is the most important thing. While important, good sportsmanship and etiquette are more so.

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You son needs to be forceful if something bothers him and not to be shy in tournaments about anything and this includes standing up to officials when you need to. The more tournaments you play the easier this sort of thing gets. The thing I have told my daughter is you never hit a shot until you are comfortable. If you have to wait for an official it's not an issue. As for pace of play the strokes you get will cost less then rushing. I even seen kids get a DQ because they didn't ask for a official because they wanted to be on time.

 

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My son's group was "put on the clock" several weeks back. He went to the rules official and said what do you want me to do? I'm either making birdie or par on these holes while the other two are making triple or OB. I mean the group still finished in 3 1/2 hours.

I mean could you apply for a JWD on the 16th hole because of a 2 stroke penalty?

Back to the OP.

Its been a sore spot for me as well for years. Some kid will usually get the tee box and tee off. He will grab his bag while the second kid is teeing off. Then adjusting his bag around still making noise while the third kid is teeing off. Just dont make a sound while he is teeing off.

One kid it finally got to me last year. The kids dad was right there and said nothing. He was a VSGA (Virginia State) official. Which burnt me even more. Then the kid started throwing clubs.

Finally by the 8th hole. I asked the Dad can you please say something to him. Its super annoying, rude, and disrespectful. He looked at me like I cuzzed out his mother. I said fine. You and I will talk to the tournament director at the turn.

 

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Everyone Understands they need to be quiet after the first 1-2 rounds of golf they played in their life.

They do it on purpose to throw your game.It is this stuff that drives me crazy. With girls some of the worst offenders are the highest ranked kids.

we had one kid who would intentionally walk in front the group a few years ago. The bad thing the only way this stoped is when they almost get hit. The only way to combat some these bad apples behavior to treat them back the same way they treat you. You would be surprised at how it stops their bad behavior.

It is hard for kids to learn but some competitors are enemy’s not your friend.

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"They do it on purpose to throw your game."

They are kids. Sure, some of them are out there to win at all costs--likely a reflection of those that raised them. Most are simply ignorant to what proper etiquette is or, more likely, wholly unaware of their surroundings because they are caught up in an uncomfortable and unfamiliar environment. Kids do strange things all the time because of their inability to focus on more than one thing at a time. They simply don't have the awareness or capacity to handle sensory overload. More likely than not, the kid is thinking about how sh***y they played the last hole or what club they are going to hit on the next tee or speeding up pace of play because (as a golf community as a whole) we have made it such a big deal or one of about a million things OTHER than trying to distract whoever is playing or put their playing partner(s) in a worse position by moving around and jingling their clubs. Kids, inherently, are empathetic and communal. They aren't conniving like their adult counterparts. I am sure there are exceptions where mommy or daddy has taught the kid to do what it takes to put other kids off their game, but such would be an exception to, rather than, the general rule. Moreover, I would like to think that in the game of golf--which is inherently me v. the course and not me v. you and which has such a reputation of sportsmanship and honor--that the exceptions are few and far between.

"The only way to combat some these kids behavior to treat them back the same way they treat you."

This is a miserably vindictive way to look at golf and an even worse way to look at life. The error is only compounded if you are imparting your theory on your kid. Might be worth taking some time to self-reflect on your jaded view of the game of golf and of life in general, friend.

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Have you actually seen tournaments with kids????????

First off the worst offenders have played lots of tournaments and in some cases won a lot junior tournaments. So there not uncomfortable like you say. Generally speaking kids that nervous are usually end up relaxed when there not subject to bad etiquette. They also don’t keep doing things that offend people.

Second it far worse for Girls then Boys. Some of the crap I see girls pull is not something a boy would tolerate. Girls especially teenage can be just plain mean and petty.

The best behavior especially for girls is to toughen up when confronted and give it back to the offender. In many cases the offender is shocked and they fall apart because they simply don’t expect it.

I would love to say you can talk to these kids and even complain but I assure you the offender doesn’t care and the official will use it as a reason to “put you on the clock” to punish your kid.

It comes down to respect. If a competitor will not respect you then you should not respect them either.

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“Have you actually seen tournaments with kids?”

Yes. I have helped to organize one (national youth tournament) and have volunteered to serve in some capacity or another for a few others as well. I also played in a few in the not so distant past.”Generally speaking kids that nervous are [sic] usually end up relaxed when there [sic] not subject to bad etiquette.”

Kids are nervous for a host of reasons. An unfamiliar course, in unfamiliar conditions, with unfamiliar playing partners is a sensory overload for an 8-15 year old. Their mind is going a mile a minute just trying to figure out how to walk without falling (that is a hyperbole, but you get the gist). Then put unwieldy expectations of success on that same kid. Now tell that kid if they don’t play sub-four hour rounds they will be penalized strokes. The combination is enough to make even the most stoic kid nervous enough to forget a basic tenant or two of etiquette.

Further, bad etiquette isn’t what makes kids nervous. Bad etiquette may be annoying, but its not nerve wracking. But the inverse is true. Nervousness can cause bad etiquette. Especially for kids.”The best behavior especially for girls is to toughen up when confronted and give it back to the offender. In many cases the offender is shocked and they fall apart because they simply don’t expect it.”

Wow. Two issues here.

First, and again, your reversion to vindictive pettiness is astounding. You opine about how petty the children are all while typing the words “give it back to the offender.“ I know the saying will fall on deaf ears, but an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

Second, instructing your child to return bad etiquette because it will cause their competitor to “fall apart.” You’re a fully grown adult teaching your child to do something because it will make another child’s game fall apart. That isn’t golf. That isn’t what this sport is about. If you can’t see that, then I’m sorry but I don’t believe you have any place in the game.

How is teaching your child to return bad etiquette going to help eradicate bad etiquette from the game? Isn’t that the goal behind this whole thread? How can we teach children to play with better etiquette? Instead, you’re instructing your child to do just the opposite. “The official will use it as a reason to ‘put you on the clock’ to punish your kid.”

Again, your jaded view of the world is astounding. Do you think any official out there wants to punish a kid? Do you think they give up 7-8 hours of their time just so they can go stick it to a 12 year old? The vast majority of youth officials aren’t getting paid for working. They are volunteering their time to see the next generation of golfers grow and succeed. Will they enforce the rules? Yes, hopefully. Will they put your kid “on the clock” to punish them? No. “It comes down to respect. If a competitor will not respect you then you should not respect them either.”

So you want to breed respect by encouraging your child to disrespect their competitors? You do understand that those two concepts are mutually exclusive, correct?

 

Further, I will refrain from commenting on your overt misogyny. That, I can see, would be worthless.

Again, maybe its time for you to take a step back and self reflect for a minute.

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Yea. My son is never going to be that person. I wouldn't want him to be either. I never want him trying to rattle a kid or give it back.

 

He has become vocal to other kids now though. He was putting and a kid was almost right behind him. I was on the pathcath near the next tee box and I heard "Are you going to stand there all day?"

 

He told me later that was the 3rd time the kid had done it.

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I think that we as parents, caddies, or spectators tend to be way more sensitive to noise and moving distractions than the kids do. Honestly I think most of the time they dont even notice or hear it. I can recall several times where I , as caddie, apologized for making a noise or moving and the kid either says "I didnt even notice" or they look at me like they dont know what I am talking about. I occasionally ask my son if he was distracted by the other kid or noise and he always tells me he didn't notice. They get more focused than we give them credit for and at the end of the day the ability to just play without being thrown off by the slightest noise is a strength to their game. I think its something that is taught. In a recent pairing , one of the other dad caddies was borderline irate about some guy running a chainsaw while his kid was putting (the homeowner was literally in his FRONT yard probably 150 yards from the green, had no way of knowing we were on the green...even if he knew who cares). Not surprisingly, this kid was backing off shots all day and showing frustration at the slightest noise - passing cars, airplane, whatever.

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@straight crooked - I agree with much of your views. Except instinct, based on your responses to the bold remarks, suggest you're a bit idealistic and maybe haven't played or won in regional events. I have a grown son that as adolescent learned his values, morals and manners from me plus how to behave when playing in competitive events. He came in 2nd a few times and in one event a young girl beat him taking 1st. Though it was a stroke event it was match play on the final day and he responded like the gentlemen I taught him to be.
You said "I would like to think that in the game of golf--which is inherently me v. the course and not me v. you and which has such a reputation of sportsmanship and honor--that the exceptions are few and far between."
All true except in competitive tournaments, even though our golf decisions and scoring are against the course, at the end of the day or event our opponent in not the course but our playing partners and everyone in the field as they try to beat our posted scores. When playing in events often times how a competitor feels isn't how it is, but there those times when if feels like everyone is against you, including monitors and tournament staff. There's a fine line between honor and sportsmanship and wanting badly to WIN. We parents must teach our youth how to win, moreover use proper judgment to determine when winning is #1 and when it's not that important, there is a difference, plus how to lose.
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@Pepperturbo I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I especially like the point "We parents must teach our youth how to win, moreover use proper judgment..." That signals to me that you agree that proper judgment is more important than winning a youth golf tournament. Oftentimes, proper judgment is the key to winning a golf tournament. If you disagree, name one time when winning is more important (#1) than treating your competition and the game itself with respect (i.e., by observing proper etiquette, not doing things to intentionally "throw off" your competition, etc.).
My arguments are simple really. (1) Respect breeds respect. (2) Good etiquette breeds good etiquette. (3) Parents need to be better about teaching their children points 1 and 2. (4) The world and your competition are not out to get you, despite what you may feel. This is especially true at the youth level. Most of this thought comes from parental expectation or instruction, IMO.
FWIW, you're right, I am fairly optimistic--but, isn't that a requirement to playing good golf. IMO, optimism (the confidence/belief that you can pull off the shot you're picturing or shoot the score you're thinking) is the difference between okay players and good players. I know very few (if any) pessimists who hover around scratch. You're also right that I haven't won a regional or national golf tournament. I am getting back into golf; although I played quite a bit growing up, it was always ancillary to baseball. I have played in regional golf tournaments and done fairly well, but never pulled out a win. What I have done is played a lot of regional and national baseball (won a few too) and coached a lot of regional and national youth baseball (won a few of those too). So, although not directly applicable to the scenario here, it isn't that far off.
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@straight crooked - I am 70yrs old and been around the world nearly twice, in places you only see in TV news, educated in psychology and behavior modification and built a north American company with a lot of employees, that has remained profitable for the last forty years. Showing respect and using good etiquette is how you and I behave, but, in both cases, those characteristics no longer breed themselves. I've seen the result on campus visits and corporate America. Knowing that doesn't change how I behave or instruct, until circumstances suggest I behave differently.
I've seen it at my son's HS, parenting has given way to adults wanting to be their kids best friend. As result adolescents behave much different than when I was one, they are no longer naturally polite. Though I played team Baseball, it wasn't my game, football was more to my liking, still it's team based. Neither of those sports IMO are similar to the obstacles encountered during golf events.
Optimism like pessimism is NOT a core requirement for good golf, they are just impressions, like glass half-empty, half-full. They can, however, affect one's judgment On the other hand, clear headed thinking, self-control and judgment are mental requirements for playing really good golf. I played over ten years of private-club Interclub team match play golf. If you don't think opponents are out to win using any legit means possible don't tackle match play. Its our job to teach our youth how to play, but they need to know how to win f2f competition as well as how to excel at work.
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