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Nearest Point of relief seems very hard for people to understand. Bizarre interaction


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I had a few rule-'run ins' on the course this week. One was truly bizarre. I was taking a drop from a cart path and the location of the ball led me to believe that the nearest point of relief no closer to the hole(NPOR) would need to be measured out as it was not obvious. In this case the ball was on the right half of the path, but as I am right handed the NPOR looked to be on the left side of the path, which happened to be a much better location to drop. I measured carefully and confirmed the left side was my legal drop when my stance was taken into account - I dropped and as I was doing this a golfer I did not know, playing another hole, started yelling at me I was dropping in the wrong place. This was not in an event, and he was not yelling out of anger - just to be heard as I was not too close.

Thinking this should be interesting, I invited him over and asked why he thought I dropped wrong and he points out my ball was closer to the right side of the path. Not sure why I was so chill about it, but I placed a tee where the ball was and showed how to measure the drop including stance - and pointing out you need complete relief. He did not buy it and kept arguing with me that my ball was closer to the right side. By this time my buddies were laughing as they knew, I knew what I was doing. Before I started the process of my drop I announced what I was doing so they watched the entire thing and there was no doubt the left side was about foot closer. I said I would buy him a beer if I was wrong when we finished our round. So it has a happy ending as the interloper finished a few holes before us and he was waiting with a rule book and an apology when we got in. He bought our foursome a round. So at least that is one more golfer that knows the rule. Still pretty odd to to get involved in other peoples golf round that way.

The next day I had less dramatic run in during a match when my opponent believed that NPOR, had to give you an 'open shot'. He was not to impressed that he had to drop behind a bush and thought the drop should be about 10 yards away.

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I am pretty impressed that he waited for you, apologized, and then bought the entire foursome a round of drinks. That's a stand up guy for sure.

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Sometimes the rules hurt and sometimes they help

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Nearest point of relief has very little to do with what side of the path you are on, and will vary depending on whether you are right or left handed for a particular circumstance.

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I’m under the view that nearest point has to first start with the side of the cart path you are on.

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Not necessarily true. You find the nearest point of complete relief - the point nearest to where the ball lies on the cart path that provides complete relief for the lie of the ball, area of intended stance and intended swing, that is not nearer the hole. This could be on either side of the cart path, and as others have said, may well be different for right-handed and left-handed players.

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There really is not a 'first', I mean I guess you could measure that side first if you like, but the rules have no preferred side, what ever is closest relief is closest relief.

 

While I am at it, there is also no obligation to measure. If you can determine the nearest point without measurement you are free to do so (potentially at your own risk)

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I've never really thought of that. Interesting!

 

But it gets a bit tricky to me - because where do you measure the point of relief? From the ball or from the stance? Nearest point of relief needs to be complete relief. For a right handed golfer, that may mean only a foot to right, so your stance nor the ball is on the cartpath, or a foot to the left so your ball is no longer on the cartpath.

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But it gets a bit tricky to me - because where do you measure the point of relief? From the ball or from the stance? Nearest point of relief needs to be complete relief. For a right handed golfer, that may mean only a foot to right, so your stance nor the ball is on the cartpath, or a foot to the left so your ball is no longer on the cartpath.

"Nearest" refers to the position of the ball only and is measured from the point where the ball lies on the cart path to the point where the ball would lay after taking complete relief from the cart path. You might find a point (where the ball would lay) on each side of the cart path that provides complete relief (for the lie of the ball, area of intended stance and intended swing), but, in nearly all cases, one of those two relief points would be nearer to the spot where the ball originally lay on the cart path. Any "measuring" is always done from ball position to ball position.

 

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wpfab43a6e_06.pngAbove a few more examples:

#1 - B is NPOR (right hand golfer) Demonstrates a straight forward drop

#2 B is NPOR (right hand golfer) (this is my situation that I described in the OP)

#3 B is NPOR (right hand golfer)

#4 demonstrates how a righty and a lefty would get different drops from the same location

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I appreciate the replies.

 

The nearest point of complete relief includes both the ball AND the stance. However, they only use the ball to determine where the nearest point of complete relief is. I understand that. It just seems weird to me to include stance in the relief process, but not the measurement process.

 

If you are right handed, and the ball is closer to the right side of the cart path. Technically, the closest point of complete relief is on the right side IF you were going by one's stance, but it would clearly be the left side if you are only considering the position of the ball. I understand for the sake of simplicity, they only measure from the ball. It just seems odd to specify complete relief as both stance and ball, but only use ball to determine that measurement.

 

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The ball is not lying at a point of complete relief if the player's stance is still on the cart path; the point of complete relief would be the position of the when the player's stance is no longer on the cart path and using the club and stroke that he would use if the cart path were not there.

The diagrams posted by 2bGood are very clear.

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I understand that. As you quoted in my reply "the nearest point of complete relief includes both the ball AND the stance".

 

My point is that the stance is used to determine complete relief, but not to measure where the nearest point of relief is, at least directly. It is only where the ball would be in a players stance. If someone stands very far away from the ball, or very close to the ball - then that distance would change. It seems like it would make more sense to give players the option to determine nearest relief via stance OR ball, so long as the relief is complete (both stance and ball)

 

But either way, I need to brush up on the rules. It's been a long time since I've played tournament golf or kept an official handicap.

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Yes, I know.

I am saying that (to my lizard brain) it makes more sense to give players the option of stance or ball - so long as the relief is complete and no closer to the hole.

 

In a case of a right handed player and the ball is on the very left side of the cart path - it is clear cut that the nearest point of relief is the left side.

 

However, as shown in the diagram 1... going to the right side, the stance is at a closer point of relief, but the ball is not - so that player must go to the left side. I think, in that (likely rare scenario) the player should be given the option to choose nearest point via stance or ball, as one side might be more favorable in that specific situation.

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The nearest point of complete relief is the spot from where the relief area commences and that is the nearest spot where the ball may lie in order to give the player a complete relief. So the measuring takes place between that spot and the spot where the ball originally lay (on the path), not the stance. I do not know how to explain it better, you just have to accept this method.

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Remember, all that counts for "nearest" is the ball's location. The player will not have a choice of which is nearest (except when there are equidistant nearest points of complete relief).

The Rules guarantee free relief from the cart path, they do not guarantee that you will have a swing, stance or shot after you've take relief. It's the nearest point of complete relief, not the nicest point of complete relief.

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For sure. Sometimes it seems unfair, but that's golf. Left handed vs right handed in that situation might yield relief that has a totally open shot to the green, or you are stuck behind a tree. I just had the thought that in the case of the ball being more in the middle of the cartpath, the player should be able to choose nearest relief via stance instead of ball (assuming complete relief). But ultimately I understand that if if the relief would cause them to have a worse position, the player my opt to just hit off the cartpath.

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The player already has a choice - take free relief or not.

See the Interpretation below:16.1/1 – Relief from Abnormal Course Condition May Result in Better or Worse ConditionsIf a player receives a better lie, area of intended swing or line of play in taking relief under Rule 16.1, this is the player’s good fortune. There is nothing in Rule 16.1 that requires him or her to maintain identical conditions after relief is taken.

For example, in taking relief from a sprinkler head (immovable obstruction) in the rough, the player’s nearest point of complete relief or relief area may be located in the fairway. If this results in the player being able to drop a ball in the fairway, this is allowed.

In some situations, the conditions may be less advantageous to the player after relief is taken as compared with the conditions before relief is taken, such as when the nearest point of complete relief or relief area is in an area of rocks.

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