Hogan's Secret...what is it? what is it not? (Hogan Threads Merged)

I've merged all the Hogan threads here. Thanks to Demoman for taking the initiative.

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On pages 99 and 100 of Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf, Hogan talks about "the old two-handed basketball pass."

 

I've looked at the picture and read the description many times. I play basketball. But I have no idea what kind of basketball pass he is talking about (i.e. one that is like throwing a small medicine ball sideways).

 

Can someone please explain that basketball pass to me?

My memory of this part of the book was that it was like a rugby pass. Watch a Bledisloe Cup match between the New Zealand All Blacks and the Australian Wallabies.

It makes for a good image but I doubt Hogan played much basketball. That's not a "pass" that was ever used.

My best guess without having read his book and his descriptions/pictures would be a two handed post entry pass from one of the wings.

Picture yourself along the three point line around the free throw extended level on the right side of the court. You are facing the basket and having to make a pass to a post player on the right block. You would take a step with your left foot towards the right corner out of bounds line and pass the ball with two hands starting from your right shoulder/hip towards the player at the block. The more recent post entry pass is just to step and making the pass with your right hand only(this is quicker to do and gives you better angles than the two handed pass).

That is the only two handed pass I could think of that would apply to a golf swing. I am guessing Hogan used it to show the angle of the arms moving across the body and down towards the ground.

My best guess without having read his book and his descriptions/pictures would be a two handed post entry pass from one of the wings.

 

Picture yourself along the three point line around the free throw extended level on the right side of the court. You are facing the basket and having to make a pass to a post player on the right block. You would take a step with your left foot towards the right corner out of bounds line and pass the ball with two hands starting from your right shoulder/hip towards the player at the block. The more recent post entry pass is just to step and making the pass with your right hand only(this is quicker to do and gives you better angles than the two handed pass).

 

That is the only two handed pass I could think of that would apply to a golf swing. I am guessing Hogan used it to show the angle of the arms moving across the body and down towards the ground.

Maybe. A lot has changed. Heck, in Hogan's day jumping off the ground with the ball in your hands was traveling... hence no dunking or jumpshots.

My best guess without having read his book and his descriptions/pictures would be a two handed post entry pass from one of the wings.

 

Picture yourself along the three point line around the free throw extended level on the right side of the court. You are facing the basket and having to make a pass to a post player on the right block. You would take a step with your left foot towards the right corner out of bounds line and pass the ball with two hands starting from your right shoulder/hip towards the player at the block. The more recent post entry pass is just to step and making the pass with your right hand only(this is quicker to do and gives you better angles than the two handed pass).

 

That is the only two handed pass I could think of that would apply to a golf swing. I am guessing Hogan used it to show the angle of the arms moving across the body and down towards the ground.

 

Maybe. A lot has changed. Heck, in Hogan's day jumping off the ground with the ball in your hands was traveling... hence no dunking or jumpshots.

lol...... no.

My best guess without having read his book and his descriptions/pictures would be a two handed post entry pass from one of the wings.

 

Picture yourself along the three point line around the free throw extended level on the right side of the court. You are facing the basket and having to make a pass to a post player on the right block. You would take a step with your left foot towards the right corner out of bounds line and pass the ball with two hands starting from your right shoulder/hip towards the player at the block. The more recent post entry pass is just to step and making the pass with your right hand only(this is quicker to do and gives you better angles than the two handed pass).

 

That is the only two handed pass I could think of that would apply to a golf swing. I am guessing Hogan used it to show the angle of the arms moving across the body and down towards the ground.

 

Maybe. A lot has changed. Heck, in Hogan's day jumping off the ground with the ball in your hands was traveling... hence no dunking or jumpshots.

No big deal, but George Mikan was arguably the greatest player during his era...here is a clip from the 1949 NBA finals. They are jumping.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrRO1jCPrzg

Maybe Mr.Hogan wanted to emphasize with this analogy that one has to use the right hand when striking a golf ball ? I was never good at basketball but I guess it is impossible to execute such a pass without a right arm action.

Cheers

Maybe Mr.Hogan wanted to emphasize with this analogy that one has to use the right hand when striking a golf ball ? I was never good at basketball but I guess it is impossible to execute such a pass without a right arm action.

 

Cheers

Maybe so. He must have felt it was important to do SOMETHING at that stage. Maybe something to meet the collision of impact with some force, with something behind it. This motion could probably help in that area. What's interesting is the direction of the illustration. It's all very FORWARD. There are a lot of possibilities, but my interpretation of the illustration and the following illustration with the club leave me with a sense that it is exactly what he said. Watch the motion of the pass and watch the motion of the club. Watch for how the hands appear to move. It's consistent in both illustrations. Puzzling and interesting. And also note where in the book he brought this up. It was about the time the club was reaching delivery.

"As in the old two-handed basketball pass, the left arm and hand lead the right arm and hand. Be sure you hit through with the left as hard as with the right"

I once took a basketball and tried to make passes this way, not a very effective way to throw a basketball, hence no one throws it that way any longer, but it is a good drill to get the feeling of hitting a golf ball. If you had a medicine ball and made this motion it would probably be a great drill/exercise. I am sure this idea came from some old school b-ball coach who felt you should keep two hands on the ball or something. Myabe James Naismith himself felt this was a good fundamental, LOL.

If you dont have a copy of 5 lesons, picture addressing the ball with a basketball in your hands instead of a golf club. Turn back with both hands on the ball and turn through with both hands on the ball and release the ball with both hands towards the target.

"Quote from page 96, The correct hitting motion is one unbroken thrust from the beginnig of the downswing to the end of the follow-through. I point out also that I think of only two things: starting the hips back and then hitting just as hard as I can with the upper part of the my body, my arms and my hands, in that order. " He then goes on to explain the motion a infielder makes in baseball throwing side armed. This is the 3 right hands! what Hogan is trying to emphasize is that you need to get the feeling of hitting the ball with both hands not letting the right or the left overpower the other.

My best guess without having read his book and his descriptions/pictures would be a two handed post entry pass from one of the wings.

 

Picture yourself along the three point line around the free throw extended level on the right side of the court. You are facing the basket and having to make a pass to a post player on the right block. You would take a step with your left foot towards the right corner out of bounds line and pass the ball with two hands starting from your right shoulder/hip towards the player at the block. The more recent post entry pass is just to step and making the pass with your right hand only(this is quicker to do and gives you better angles than the two handed pass).

 

That is the only two handed pass I could think of that would apply to a golf swing. I am guessing Hogan used it to show the angle of the arms moving across the body and down towards the ground.

 

Maybe. A lot has changed. Heck, in Hogan's day jumping off the ground with the ball in your hands was traveling... hence no dunking or jumpshots.

 

 

lol...... no.

No offense dude but I know about 100 times more about basketball than you. I learned from my grandfather who was assist coach for UConn and played in the 1945-46 NCAA Championship (known as the NIT back then) against Adolph Rupp's Kentucky Wilcats. They lost by 1 point and he was the 2nd leading scorer. He inbounded the ball to Ernie Cavelry when he hit the longest shot in history, a one handed winger from almost 90feet.

They used a set shot. Jumping was a "continuation" of 2 steps with the ball. Dunking was goaltending. BTW, he played against George Mikan and told me he was virtually unstoppable. Back then he was a giant. Consider my grandfather was 2nd tallest guy on the team, playing forward at 6'1". A position today you'd need to be 6'9"-6'11" to play.

Here's the boxscore from the 1946 NCAA Championship game, my grandfather was Alton Nichols http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/statistic...hodeIsland.html

Also, he was drafted in the NBA but took a job at UConn as a math professor instead.

My best guess without having read his book and his descriptions/pictures would be a two handed post entry pass from one of the wings.

 

Picture yourself along the three point line around the free throw extended level on the right side of the court. You are facing the basket and having to make a pass to a post player on the right block. You would take a step with your left foot towards the right corner out of bounds line and pass the ball with two hands starting from your right shoulder/hip towards the player at the block. The more recent post entry pass is just to step and making the pass with your right hand only(this is quicker to do and gives you better angles than the two handed pass).

 

That is the only two handed pass I could think of that would apply to a golf swing. I am guessing Hogan used it to show the angle of the arms moving across the body and down towards the ground.

 

Maybe. A lot has changed. Heck, in Hogan's day jumping off the ground with the ball in your hands was traveling... hence no dunking or jumpshots.

 

 

lol...... no.

 

No offense dude but I know about 100 times more about basketball than you. I learned from my grandfather who was assist coach for UConn and played in the 1945-46 NCAA Championship (known as the NIT back then) against Adolph Rupp's Kentucky Wilcats. They lost by 1 point and he was the 2nd leading scorer. He inbounded the ball to Ernie Cavelry when he hit the longest shot in history, a one handed winger from almost 90feet.

 

They used a set shot. Jumping was a "continuation" of 2 steps with the ball. Dunking was goaltending. BTW, he played against George Mikan and told me he was virtually unstoppable. Back then he was a giant. Consider my grandfather was 2nd tallest guy on the team, playing forward at 6'1". A position today you'd need to be 6'9"-6'11" to play.

 

Here's the boxscore from the 1946 NCAA Championship game, my grandfather was Alton Nichols http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/statistic...hodeIsland.html

 

Also, he was drafted in the NBA but took a job at UConn as a math professor instead.

Like I said earlier, its no big deal. You weren't replying to me but I think it can be said for either of us that replied. Saying you know 100 times more about basketball then someone else with your only fact to support it is that your grandfather played in the 40s is a little weak though. I have played basketball since I was a child and I know a thing or two about it as well. Certainly a great feat by your grandfather though. You are correct about George Mikan, he towered over everyone back then. A jump shot was not considered traveling though. Dunking was only ruled out in the NCAA from 1967-1976 because of Lew Alcindor's (Kareem Abdul Jabbar) dominance.

Go out and do a little research on the jump shot as well and you will find that Ken Sailors was shooting them in 1943 in the NCAA.

While it wasn't common in your grandfather's day, it doesn't mean it wasn't allowed. I'm sure he does have some great stories to share with you though. The game has certainly changed since then.

Anyways, back to Hogan. The two handed pass from the side like he was describing really involves the muscles of the golf swing. Its a lot like some of the medicine ball drills you can do for golf. That pass really engages the left side of the body (left lats) for a right handed player which is a great source of structural support and power in the golf swing. It is a good analogy for his day. Nowadays with the modern fundamentals of basketball, I think players would have a hard time making that pass without it getting picked off quick, its not the quickest move.

Edit: I just noticed that dlgrisse said the same thing about about the medicine ball. You are correct! I should probably start doing that one myself. I saw it in a special on TGC that was showing some college golf teams workouts and they were bouncing it off a trampoline wall back to themselves.

My best guess without having read his book and his descriptions/pictures would be a two handed post entry pass from one of the wings.

 

Picture yourself along the three point line around the free throw extended level on the right side of the court. You are facing the basket and having to make a pass to a post player on the right block. You would take a step with your left foot towards the right corner out of bounds line and pass the ball with two hands starting from your right shoulder/hip towards the player at the block. The more recent post entry pass is just to step and making the pass with your right hand only(this is quicker to do and gives you better angles than the two handed pass).

 

That is the only two handed pass I could think of that would apply to a golf swing. I am guessing Hogan used it to show the angle of the arms moving across the body and down towards the ground.

 

Maybe. A lot has changed. Heck, in Hogan's day jumping off the ground with the ball in your hands was traveling... hence no dunking or jumpshots.

 

 

lol...... no.

 

No offense dude but I know about 100 times more about basketball than you. I learned from my grandfather who was assist coach for UConn and played in the 1945-46 NCAA Championship (known as the NIT back then) against Adolph Rupp's Kentucky Wilcats. They lost by 1 point and he was the 2nd leading scorer. He inbounded the ball to Ernie Cavelry when he hit the longest shot in history, a one handed winger from almost 90feet.

 

They used a set shot. Jumping was a "continuation" of 2 steps with the ball. Dunking was goaltending. BTW, he played against George Mikan and told me he was virtually unstoppable. Back then he was a giant. Consider my grandfather was 2nd tallest guy on the team, playing forward at 6'1". A position today you'd need to be 6'9"-6'11" to play.

 

Here's the boxscore from the 1946 NCAA Championship game, my grandfather was Alton Nichols http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/statistic...hodeIsland.html

 

Also, he was drafted in the NBA but took a job at UConn as a math professor instead.

 

 

Like I said earlier, its no big deal. You weren't replying to me but I think it can be said for either of us that replied. Saying you know 100 times more about basketball then someone else with your only fact to support it is that your grandfather played in the 40s is a little weak though. I have played basketball since I was a child and I know a thing or two about it as well. Certainly a great feat by your grandfather though. You are correct about George Mikan, he towered over everyone back then. A jump shot was not considered traveling though. Dunking was only ruled out in the NCAA from 1967-1976 because of Lew Alcindor's (Kareem Abdul Jabbar) dominance.

 

Go out and do a little research on the jump shot as well and you will find that Ken Sailors was shooting them in 1943 in the NCAA.

 

While it wasn't common in your grandfather's day, it doesn't mean it wasn't allowed. I'm sure he does have some great stories to share with you though. The game has certainly changed since then.

 

 

 

Anyways, back to Hogan. The two handed pass from the side like he was describing really involves the muscles of the golf swing. Its a lot like some of the medicine ball drills you can do for golf. That pass really engages the left side of the body (left lats) for a right handed player which is a great source of structural support and power in the golf swing. It is a good analogy for his day. Nowadays with the modern fundamentals of basketball, I think players would have a hard time making that pass without it getting picked off quick, its not the quickest move.

 

 

Edit: I just noticed that dlgrisse said the same thing about about the medicine ball. You are correct! I should probably start doing that one myself. I saw it in a special on TGC that was showing some college golf teams workouts and they were bouncing it off a trampoline wall back to themselves.

I apologize, the response just kind of pissed me off, not yours but the one I quoted. I'm obviously not remembering things he said entirely correctly. I didn't see him all that much as he was retired living in FL when I was a kid. He did show me fundamentals of the set shot, which are entirely the same as the jump shot. He showed me a lot about defense and defensive rebounding. Which paid off when I made the HS team in 9th grade. Coming off the bench as the 6th man my job was to slow down the best opposing player. I avgeraged 4pts., 1 steal, 1 block, 2 reb. and 3 fouls, lol, in about 6minutes a game. I had better success against kids my own age rather than 3-4yrs. older though. I used to travel with an "all county" type team as a kid playing through RI, CT and MA. In HS things got difficult. I made the team in 10th grade then I was in a car accident where my friend was killed. Grades slipped big time and I was suspended from athletic activities.

Back to the topic though. I think sidearm baseball throw or a skipping a stone might be a more comparable example. The image serves it purpose though. IMO it's more about using the weight shift and body than arms, something that I didn't understand the feeling of the 1st to 10th time I looked at the image in the book.

Thanks for your thoughts everyone.

I assume that Hogan was careful with his words and every analogy/image. In which case, what trips me up is that he is saying that the golf swing should feel like this two-handed basketball/medicine ball throw AND a baseball throw to first base from an infielder.

To me these two throws are very distinct??

I thought the two handed pass analogy was to show how to swing hard with both hands, and the rock skipping (baseball 2B to 1B quick throw) was just to show the motion of the right hand.

Hogan is reffering to a real pass that's simple.

Get yourself 2 buddies and the three of you line up side to side with about 15 feet seperating you. Now, without any of you moving your feet(all pointed forward), have the first guy pass it to you using both hands. He'll be limited to a simple hip twist and arm motion like Hogan describes. You in turn will have a hip twist to recieve the ball followed by a twist in the opposite direction to pass it on (remember to use both hands). In Hogan's day you passed the ball without ever dribbling a majority of the time.

This was a simple drill and way of passing back in the olden days. It's probably best shown in the old Saturday Night Live skit "the first black Harlem Globetrotter" that starred Sinbad. It shows a bunch of us white guys doing the Harlem Globetrotter passing circle only the passes aren't that fancy.

It's just a pass from the "triple threat" position across your body from back in the days where people used fundamentals. You wind up with the ball across your body, you're left arm stays relatively straight and your right arm folds. You use both hands to perform the pass.

A pass from the triple-threat position makes no sense for a golf swing analogy, no? I think Hogan is talking about throwing a heavy object sideways.

On a related note, I've also read where the golf swing is analogized to throwing a bucket of water. Again, how does this jibe with skipping a stone?

think about the snap at the end of a chest pass. the thumbs move from behind the ball to pointing at the floor, that snap is similar to (borrowing terminology from sevam1) the tripping of the shaft and release of the clubhead.

Hi again Tiltswing

I guess I've been thinking about Hogan's swing for over thirty years.

The thing that always bothers me when someone claims to know Hogan's secret is that it looks and sounds like the blueprints for the space shuttle. Hogan descibed for us the events leading up to and then getting his idea. It sounds like it came to him in an instant. Something like the apple falling out of the tree and hitting you on the head. That's what is so appealing about Sevam's idea. I don't doubt that all the explanations of where Hogan was at what point in his swing are true. I just don't know if anyone can think about all that and still swing the club. The best part of Sevam's idea is how easy it is think of while swinging.

Moefan

Yeah, you can think about it while doing the swing. There are simple images and concepts that allow a golfer to get complicated things working in their swing, such as getting the correct tilts post impact. Think of Five Lessons, do you think Hogan had every word of that book in his head when he swung? No, he certainly didn't. It is a lot of information and a lot of it is difficult to perform for a beginner, so you need to PRACTICE. I doubt this is Hogan's secret because I see no reason why this right foot thing would prevent hooking, which Hogan's secret did. I see no actual, concrete biomechanical result of "the move." Perhaps it would be a good feel, but can you tell me what aspect of your swing mechanics has been improved as a result of "the move"? If you could, that'd be great! However, I really don't see what would be improved, so I don't see how it could be Hogan's secret. Why would it make sense that the left release and hard work would be Hogan's secret? The left release actually WILL prevent hooks, it was only present in his post-secret swing, and it is something that is DIFFICULT to ingrain. All of this matches up with what Hogan said regarding the secret.

An interesting comparison of shoulder and hip slants

and some more comparisons

Attached image(s)

This post was made by eightiron

Hi Tiltswing

I've been thinking about you comparing Sevam's swing to Hogan. I am wondering what you might see if you compared Sevam to Gardner Dickinson or Ken Venturi. They probably knew Hogan best but would their swings meet your test?

Moefan

In a lot of ways they certainly would! I guarantee their hip/shoulder slants are better, as well as their post impact tilts. Pause Venturi around 0:05 in this clip, much better lower COG shift than Sevam, and hip/shoulder slants are better at the top of the backswing:

I can understand that the grip may affect some aspects of the follow-through, but how would it affect your tilts? I see a left knee flexed too long that results in insufficient shift of your lower COG (pelvis) which slows your whole pivot and obviously the arms/hands/club as well. This causes a faster recock than Hogan and an akward neck tilt. Hogan's head and neck is releasing back along with hs upper spine, his pelvis is going forward, which creates the 2nd tilt. If your grip does affects this, could you explain how because I have no idea how it could.

QUOTE (Tiltswing @ Jan 1 2009, 02:07 PM) QUOTE (eightiron @ Jan 1 2009, 01:59 PM) An interesting comparison of shoulder and hip slants

QUOTE (eightiron @ Jan 1 2009, 02:00 PM) and some more comparisons

Wow, nice comparisons. Couple interesting things to note here. First picture is obvious, very flat shoulder and hip slants. Second pic not so obvious to everybody but interesting differences. Sevam's left knee is keeping flexion too long slowing hip speed and limiting COG transfer. Since the pivot has slowed, the arms/hands are slowing down which disrupts rhythm (TGM) and causes the left wrist to break down, which can be seen in Sevam's quicker recock. 2nd tilt is very clear with Hogan due to greater transfer of lower COG.

Yep...note the belt buckle ..long way further forward for Hogan on the 5 iron comparison

Yeah, not only is the belt buckle further back it is also lower. Sevam's is sinking, if you were to put his address belt line up there his follow through belt line would possibly be lower than that, ideally it would be higher. Big part of good footwork, the hips sliding forward rolls the back foot, and the pelvis pushing up elevates it. Also, hips going forward and up will add tremendously to clubhead speed.

The secret is that everything that Hogan ever uttered about the golfswing is true from the 1955 Life Magazine article to every word in 5 Lessons to his conversations with Seitz and Peper and Vasquez and Demaret and Williams and Bolt and Moe (yes he and Moe talked, Kelly Murray can confirm that) and Byrd and on and on was true. He never ever contradicted himself. In spite of all of the revision of his words you will find that they all hold true if you understand the context of his pivot. I have brought the pivot to the table for discussion. The pivot is what unlocks the balance of the equation. That is the secret. The Secret Is In The Dirt. The pivot is what Moe told me was made his action ridiculously consistent and was what united his action and Hogan's. A pivot that retained significant pressure in the right foot until the hands passed the trail foot was the key. I am explaining to you what I have learned and what I was told. I put it into practice and practicing stopped being fun so I stopped. Watch Hogan do his demonstration swing at the end of the Shell match with Snead and you will be able to visually see the pressure leave through the ball of the right foot in unison with his hands passing that foot. That is the precise moment and point in the sequence of motion where the leverage is lost in the right foot. That is when the angles change and that is the Whoosh and that is the Hogan sound. All of the other angles that you speak of are smoke and mirrors. Hogan hit off of the ball of the right foot and yes the mass chases the hips. Understand this and you will find that there are no contradictions in the rest of what Hogan said.

Sevam1

In response to this statement:

Makes no sense at all, you can clearly see Hogan had the same pivot sequence (as far as when pressure leaves the ball of the foot) pre and post secret:

Pre-secret: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNgMNK3CtWU

Post-secret: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZvxZvLKGEw

This is the ball of the foot:

Of course every good ball-striker is going to keep pressure there until he is coming into the follow-through. It is not Hogan's secret, it's something he always did. The post-impact tilts are smoke and mirrors? OK, then why is it that every great ball striker gets in those positions? They tell a lot about the swing, and in Sevam's case they show he is slowing his pivot, the proof is easy to see:

All with good neck and spine tilts, and now Sevam:

I see a huge difference. Smoke and mirrors, huh?

Also, how would leaving weight on the right leg prevent hooking, the whole purpose of Hogan's secret? Leaving weight back, means hang back which means a DTL release, Hogan always struggled with that early on as the above video shows.

You are right on the money Tilt...

The secret is that everything that Hogan ever uttered about the golfswing is true from the 1955 Life Magazine article to every word in 5 Lessons to his conversations with Seitz and Peper and Vasquez and Demaret and Williams and Bolt and Moe (yes he and Moe talked, Kelly Murray can confirm that) and Byrd and on and on was true. He never ever contradicted himself. In spite of all of the revision of his words you will find that they all hold true if you understand the context of his pivot. I have brought the pivot to the table for discussion. The pivot is what unlocks the balance of the equation. That is the secret. The Secret Is In The Dirt. The pivot is what Moe told me was made his action ridiculously consistent and was what united his action and Hogan's. A pivot that retained significant pressure in the right foot until the hands passed the trail foot was the key. I am explaining to you what I have learned and what I was told. I put it into practice and practicing stopped being fun so I stopped. Watch Hogan do his demonstration swing at the end of the Shell match with Snead and you will be able to visually see the pressure leave through the ball of the right foot in unison with his hands passing that foot. That is the precise moment and point in the sequence of motion where the leverage is lost in the right foot. That is when the angles change and that is the Whoosh and that is the Hogan sound. All of the other angles that you speak of are smoke and mirrors. Hogan hit off of the ball of the right foot and yes the mass chases the hips. Understand this and you will find that there are no contradictions in the rest of what Hogan said.

 

Sevam1

 

 

In response to this statement:

 

Makes no sense at all, you can clearly see Hogan had the same pivot sequence (as far as when pressure leaves the ball of the foot) pre and post secret:

 

Pre-secret: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNgMNK3CtWU

 

Post-secret: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZvxZvLKGEw

 

This is the ball of the foot:

 

 

Of course every good ball-striker is going to keep pressure there until he is coming into the follow-through. It is not Hogan's secret, it's something he always did. The post-impact tilts are smoke and mirrors? OK, then why is it that every great ball striker gets in those positions? They tell a lot about the swing, and in Sevam's case they show he is slowing his pivot, the proof is easy to see:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All with good neck and spine tilts, and now Sevam:

 

 

 

I see a huge difference. Smoke and mirrors, huh?

 

Also, how would leaving weight on the right leg prevent hooking, the whole purpose of Hogan's secret? Leaving weight back, means hang back which means a DTL release, Hogan always struggled with that early on as the above video shows.

Tiltswing,

Look at the video link you posted. Look at the very first swing on that first video. It illustrates the point. The pressure leaves the ball of the right foot early. That is it right there. That didn't happen after 1946 and he got even better at preserving it the longer he went along. Everything else that he did with his hands and release and the whole works is only meaningful within the context of that change.

Sevam1

What is the problem with his move? I do not think I remember him ever saying he swings the club identical to Hogan. I think his study of Moe Norman, and Ben Hogan lead him to deliver a great representation of his interpretation on the characteristics of great rotary players.

The problem is he claims to know Hogan's secret and I have no reason to believe this, check over some of my posts in the last thread.

The secret is that everything that Hogan ever uttered about the golfswing is true from the 1955 Life Magazine article to every word in 5 Lessons to his conversations with Seitz and Peper and Vasquez and Demaret and Williams and Bolt and Moe (yes he and Moe talked, Kelly Murray can confirm that) and Byrd and on and on was true. He never ever contradicted himself. In spite of all of the revision of his words you will find that they all hold true if you understand the context of his pivot. I have brought the pivot to the table for discussion. The pivot is what unlocks the balance of the equation. That is the secret. The Secret Is In The Dirt. The pivot is what Moe told me was made his action ridiculously consistent and was what united his action and Hogan's. A pivot that retained significant pressure in the right foot until the hands passed the trail foot was the key. I am explaining to you what I have learned and what I was told. I put it into practice and practicing stopped being fun so I stopped. Watch Hogan do his demonstration swing at the end of the Shell match with Snead and you will be able to visually see the pressure leave through the ball of the right foot in unison with his hands passing that foot. That is the precise moment and point in the sequence of motion where the leverage is lost in the right foot. That is when the angles change and that is the Whoosh and that is the Hogan sound. All of the other angles that you speak of are smoke and mirrors. Hogan hit off of the ball of the right foot and yes the mass chases the hips. Understand this and you will find that there are no contradictions in the rest of what Hogan said.

 

Sevam1

 

 

In response to this statement:

 

Makes no sense at all, you can clearly see Hogan had the same pivot sequence (as far as when pressure leaves the ball of the foot) pre and post secret:

 

Pre-secret: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNgMNK3CtWU

 

Post-secret: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZvxZvLKGEw

 

This is the ball of the foot:

 

 

Of course every good ball-striker is going to keep pressure there until he is coming into the follow-through. It is not Hogan's secret, it's something he always did. The post-impact tilts are smoke and mirrors? OK, then why is it that every great ball striker gets in those positions? They tell a lot about the swing, and in Sevam's case they show he is slowing his pivot, the proof is easy to see:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All with good neck and spine tilts, and now Sevam:

 

 

 

I see a huge difference. Smoke and mirrors, huh?

 

Also, how would leaving weight on the right leg prevent hooking, the whole purpose of Hogan's secret? Leaving weight back, means hang back which means a DTL release, Hogan always struggled with that early on as the above video shows.

 

 

Tiltswing,

 

Look at the video link you posted. Look at the very first swing on that first video. It illustrates the point. The pressure leaves the ball of the right foot early. That is it right there. That didn't happen after 1946. Everything else that he did with his hands and release and the whole works is only meaningful within the context of that change.

 

Sevam1

That is totally untrue, his right heel comes off the ground to a greater degree in his pre-secret swing, there is no difference in the sequence as it comes off the ground. I don't understand how you can think this odd, insignificant detail is the secret.

The right heel has nothing to do with it. The ball of the foot. Watch the pressure leave the ball of the right foot. When it leaves early he's in trouble. All the other moves only matter with this pressure preserved.

Sevam1

The right heel has nothing to do with it. The ball of the foot. Watch the pressure leave the ball of the right foot. When it leaves early he's in trouble. All the other moves only matter with this pressure preserved.

 

Sevam1

Ok, well to prove my point look a little further into the video at another of his pre-secret swings, this time from DTL. You'll see that the ball of Hogan's foot stays on the ground into impact and after. Yes pressure is released, as it would be in ALL swings, that's why the foot comes UP. The ball of the foot stays down onto the ground for pretty much any pro into the follow through. Obviously some pressure is lost but again this is an insignificant detail, because all pros do this. Please explain how this prevents hooking.

What is the problem with his move? I do not think I remember him ever saying he swings the club identical to Hogan. I think his study of Moe Norman, and Ben Hogan lead him to deliver a great representation of his interpretation on the characteristics of great rotary players.

 

 

The problem is he claims to know Hogan's secret and I have no reason to believe this, check over some of my posts in the last thread.

 

 

Well. to tell you the truth I think he does know one of Hogans's secrets, and people who agree with me are Jim Hardy, Hank Haney,Marty Fleckman, VJ, Boo Weekley, lots of GolfWrx readers, and I can go on. They way I look at it is you have your own thoughts on the matter and if it was correct you would be teaching it to some of the best players in the world. Who do you teach on tour? I have told everyone in other post the many PGA Tour, and Eurpean Tour players I have advised, and the guys mention above have Advised even more tour players than me. You are digging yourself into a corner that you and a couple others here may not be able to back up with proof. My suggestion is learn from others to improve your own knowledge, and sort through the BS. When you have definitive proof they are wrong, and want to be an azz call them on it. I just do not see why anyone would want to hurt another for there beliefs.

Ok, please PLEASE do not say I'm trying to hurt someone. If you don't like what's in this thread DO NOT read it, because it was made to debate this point. You yourself provide no evidence that you have spoken with these pros, and I don't believe you for a second. You are trying to make yourself credible by listing popular tour pros you claim to have spoken with about this, which I highly doubt. Like your friend BurleyGolf, you seem to like exaggerating everything. Even if they agreed with it WHAT WOULD IT MATTER???? Did any of them meet Ben Hogan? Do they know his secret? No, the proof is right there in the footage, this was NOT Hogan's secret. You can see his right foot stay down, and keep pressure on the ball of his right foot in lots of pre-secret footage.