Hogan and ball position

[color="#1C2837"]Chip said.... "but have resorted to a Nicklaus practice of setting the ball off my lead instep on every shot, altering only the width of my stance through the club progression"[/color]

[color="#1C2837"]Chip...... you mean like this?[attachment=526790:setup.png].[/color]

Do you guys think Hogan had it right for today's game regarding ball position? I like his driver position and wedge position, but for short and medium irons I just can't play the ball that far forward. I have to swing down with too much of a lunge left to get down on the ball considering I'm coming in from the right side.

[quote name='chip' date='22 January 2010 - 06:20 PM' timestamp='1264184434' post='2197118']
Hello gentlemen,

can anybody point out excerpts from the 5 lessons where Hogan discusses ball position? Quite a few of the illustrations in the book appear to depict different ball positions (see e.g. cover page vs. pg. 41 depiction of 5 iron at address). This of course would be consistent with altering ball positions for standard shots based on the club being played, but I'm just having trouble locating any passages where Hogan advises on the topic explicitly.

I've built (and continue to build) a Hogan based swing for myself but have resorted to a Nicklaus practice of setting the ball off my lead instep on every shot, altering only the width of my stance through the club progression. It works great and is good for someone like me who wants "simplicity" when it comes to ball position, but I'd like to know if Hogan himself had something to say...
[/quote]


Apart from the diagramme that Jerry posted, read the pages no. 124-125 of '5 Lessons'. Read it carefully - lots of wisdom cumulated exactly in these few verses.
Hogan's stance with the fixed ball position allows to locate the downswing vertical axis in the same place, while the right foot moved back the longer the club is, makes us finding the bottom of the arc earlier. Independently on the club.
The rule is still biomechanically perfect today with perhaps an exception of ridiculously big driver heads of today - one may put the teed ball a bit further. But I personally would want to see the driver head manufacturers to diminish the size to, say, 350-360 ccm max. since there is no single reason why they need to be so big with the most modern technology of achieving max. allowed COR in case even for #5 woods.

Cheers

hah...lesson 5! I had the feeling I had seen it in there, but for the life of me couldn't find it - and in the back of my mind I had written off the last lesson as being a summary section, but there it is! Well I guess that explains why "Nicklaus'" convention works...it was Hogan's convention as well!

From a lay-out perspective, it's kind of surprising that he didn't put ball position discussion into the set-up lesson.

Finalist, as to your question about short irons, ball position in front didn't fit my eye until I appropriately narrowed my stance on the short irons. Once I did narrow the stance significantly, it immediately "clicked" that it would work just fine!

I will say that I haven't fully adopted Hogan's advice re foot placement with respect to progressively placing the trail foot inside the lead foot. I get that Hogan thinks it helps with hip clearing on shorter irons, but it seems...unnatural...

does anybody here use that particular component of Hogan's set-up?

Of course, I do. A modified version - called the Diagonal Stance in my case. The fixed ball position relative to the lead hip joint.

And, BTW, Nicklaus learnt a lot of things from The Master. He spent countless hours watching Hogan hit balls.

Cheers

[color=#1C2837]And, BTW, Nicklaus learnt a lot of things from The Master. He spent countless hours watching Hogan hit balls. This is
[/color]
[color="#1C2837"]documented where? dts[/color]

[quote name='downtoscratch' date='22 January 2010 - 08:16 PM' timestamp='1264191383' post='2197389']
[color=#1C2837]And, BTW, Nicklaus learnt a lot of things from The Master. He spent countless hours watching Hogan hit balls. This is
[/color]
[color="#1C2837"]documented where? dts[/color]
[/quote]

Are you asking me to prove what I said, Jerry ? You ? About such an obvious thing ?

Jokes aside - here's Mr.Bolt's part:

"Tommy Bolt, a contemporary of Hogan’s was asked once to decide between Nicklaus and Hogan. After a short lull he stated, "Well now, I’ve seen Big Jack watch Ben Hogan practice [b]on many occasions [/b]but I’ve [b]never [/b]seen Hogan watch Nicklaus. Does that answer your question?" Nicklaus himself had the ultimate respect for Hogan and said, "As a young college golfer, it was the record of Bobby Jones that I most tried to emulate, but I wanted to do it Hogan’s way; fading the ball from left to right. The argument of ‘greatest ever’ will never be settled but Ben Hogan remains the most ruthlessly accurate ‘shotmaker’ the world has ever known. With precision as his trademark, he more closely courted ‘perfection’ than any golfer, before or since! Rest in peace ‘Mr Hogan’."

Cheers

I think this stance diagram also can be related to the ball flight laws that have been all the rage lately. If you follow this stance diagram you will get much closer to the shot patterns that Hogan had discussed and most people observed.

[quote name='gmbtempe' date='22 January 2010 - 10:26 PM' timestamp='1264199163' post='2197647']
I think this stance diagram also can be related to the ball flight laws that have been all the rage lately. If you follow this stance diagram you will get much closer to the shot patterns that Hogan had discussed and most people observed.
[/quote]

You bet ! When D-Plane experts tried to work out a "map" for all clubs in the bag to zero out Trackman, suddenly it appeared that the result is very similar to the diagramme. The man was a true genius. If I am to choose one single man who know the true ball flight rights before Jorgensen - it would have been Mr.Hogan.
Simply - fixed ball position + diagonal stance = Trackman approved success

Cheers

can you direct me to a resource to better understand the diagonal stance theory and practice?

[color=#1C2837]

Just asking D....... [b]Many occasions = countless hours = poetic license etc.[/b] Everyone knows George Knudson was on record as having 'hawked' the Hawk for [b]countless hours/many occasions[/b]........... Nicklaus, I doubt he spent much time focusing on anything but Nicklaus. DTS
Jokes aside - here's Mr.Bolt's part:
"Tommy Bolt, a contemporary of Hogan’s was asked once to decide between Nicklaus and Hogan. After a short lull he stated, "Well now, I’ve seen Big Jack watch Ben Hogan practice [b]on many occasions [/b]but I’ve [b]never [/b]seen Hogan watch Nicklaus.[/color]
[color="#1C2837"]As written by Paul Daley AusGolf [color=#333333][size=2][b]A TRIBUTE TO BEN HOGAN[/b][/size][/color][/color]
[size="3"][color="#333333"][size=2][b]
[/b][/size][/color][/size]
[size="3"][color="#333333"][size=2][b]Tommy Bolt

On Ben Hogan [size=3]From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/size]

"He's the only player I have ever known to get an ovation from the fans on the practice tee.

I've seen him playing practice rounds before a tournament and half the gallery was made up of other professionals. Somebody asked me once, Who's better? [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Nicklaus"][color=#002bb8]Jack Nicklaus[/color][/url] or [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Hogan"][color=#5a3696]Ben Hogan[/color][/url]? Well, my answer was, I saw Nicklaus watch Hogan practice. But I never saw Hogan watch Nicklaus."[color=#5a3696][2][/color]

[/b][/size][/color][/size]

Yes - the main source of the concept is Hogan's idea from '5 Lessons'. Mr.Hogan does not mention about the relation of the position of feet/hips/shoulders, but luckily we have a lot of footages to digest it from.
If you want to jave a look at my version - here it is:
http://www.biokineticgolfswing.forom.pl/viewforum.php?f=11

But - it is not necessary to be in agreement with me exactly to perform the true DS. Mine is, as usually, exagerated, but it damn works.

Cheers

[quote name='downtoscratch' date='22 January 2010 - 11:24 PM' timestamp='1264202694' post='2197766']
[color=#1C2837]

Just asking D....... [b]Many occasions = countless hours = poetic license etc.[/b] Everyone knows George Knudson was on record as having 'hawked' the Hawk for [b]countless hours/many occasions[/b]........... Nicklaus, I doubt he spent much time focusing on anything but Nicklaus. DTS
Jokes aside - here's Mr.Bolt's part:
"Tommy Bolt, a contemporary of Hogan’s was asked once to decide between Nicklaus and Hogan. After a short lull he stated, "Well now, I’ve seen Big Jack watch Ben Hogan practice [b]on many occasions [/b]but I’ve [b]never [/b]seen Hogan watch Nicklaus.[/color]
[color="#1C2837"]As written by Paul Daley AusGolf [color=#333333][size=2][b]A TRIBUTE TO BEN HOGAN[/b][/size][/color][/color]
[size="3"][color="#333333"][size=2][b]
[/b][/size][/color][/size]
[size="3"][color="#333333"][size=2][b]Tommy Bolt

On Ben Hogan [size=3]From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/size]

"He's the only player I have ever known to get an ovation from the fans on the practice tee.

I've seen him playing practice rounds before a tournament and half the gallery was made up of other professionals. Somebody asked me once, Who's better? [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Nicklaus"][color=#002bb8]Jack Nicklaus[/color][/url] or [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Hogan"][color=#5a3696]Ben Hogan[/color][/url]? Well, my answer was, I saw Nicklaus watch Hogan practice. But I never saw Hogan watch Nicklaus."[color=#5a3696][2][/color]

[/b][/size][/color][/size]
[/quote]


I see, so it was really you asking me about it, Jerry

OK, I admit I mightd not have used the expression "countless hours", but e.g. "often" or "from time to time". It does not change anything from the merits - it is Nicklaus who learned from Hogan, and learned a lot, judging from the esteem he expressed and still expresses. It is him, the best overall golfer ever, who says that Hogan's pedestal pops up much higher comparing to all of the rest.

Cheers

P.S. Have I offended you in anything, Jerry ? I feel you are different...or maybe it's my Friday's beer...

Darius, Just curious what kind of beer you drink while posting on here?

[quote name='supercharger' date='22 January 2010 - 11:49 PM' timestamp='1264204165' post='2197808']
Darius, Just curious what kind of beer you drink while posting on here?
[/quote]

Well, usually, Polish 'Warka Strong', a very good beer. Tonite - Czech (our southern neighbours') Ambrosius Strong, not bad too. I cannot stand a coloured gold water soda that some of them call beer...LOL.
Why do you ask ? Am I writing so much trash recently ?

Cheers

No, I like your insight and contributions to this site very much. Just curious as what goes down the old windpipe while sifting through the posts in poland.

Thanks, mate. Although I feel THE KING OF THE WORLD after 6 or 7 strong ones - I prefer my "sober posts" always. Alcohol gives you an illusion, so smoke does. I quit smoking 2 weeks ago because I read a book that stated that nicotine flows out of the organism after 5 minutes and the rest is a brainwash of your brain. If anyone wants help - PM me, please.
I haven't reached this nirvana as regards alcohol yet...LOL.\

Cheers

It is accepted that Nicklaus spent a goodly amount of time watching Hogan because he had no hesitation whatsoever in stating that Hogan was the best ball striker he had ever seen. I doubt JN would have laid himself open to ridicule by making that pronouncement in the Tiger era if he had only rarely seen Hogan hit balls.

"When Jack Nicklaus was asked recently whether Tiger Woods is the greatest ball-striker he's ever seen, he replied quickly, "No, no -- Ben Hogan, easily." Nicklaus has seen much of Woods over the last few years and last played with Hogan in the late 1960s -- almost 20 years after Hogan had left his prime. Still, Hogan's power, precision and control was such that it left an enduring impression on the greatest golfer of all time."

What is ridiculous is to believe that Woods can be regarded as one of the best ballstrikers in the history of golf, let alone top 10 or top 5 - this would be really RIDICULOUS. LOL.

Cheers

thank you. Very interesting. I will certainly take a close look at this interesting wrinkle...

From my experience hogans drawing in five lessons is too extreme. I would be more inclined to halve all the distances from width to depth of the rear foot both open and closed. I personally cannot achieve anything with the diagram in five lessons. I only vary width maybe 5 inches max and depth 3 inches. This stance messes with timing and swingspeed which can wreck even the best of swings.

What do you mean - too extreme ? too diagonal ? or too less diagonal ?

I'll give you a hint - a pretty extreme thing - will come tomorrow to discuss it...

[attachment=526982:DiagonalStanceDiagramme.JPG]

Cheers all

[quote name='Dariusz J.' date='22 January 2010 - 05:37 PM' timestamp='1264199864' post='2197664']
[quote name='gmbtempe' date='22 January 2010 - 10:26 PM' timestamp='1264199163' post='2197647']
I think this stance diagram also can be related to the ball flight laws that have been all the rage lately. If you follow this stance diagram you will get much closer to the shot patterns that Hogan had discussed and most people observed.
[/quote]

You bet ! When D-Plane experts tried to work out a "map" for all clubs in the bag to zero out Trackman, suddenly it appeared that the result is very similar to the diagramme. The man was a true genius. If I am to choose one single man who know the true ball flight rights before Jorgensen - it would have been Mr.Hogan.
Simply - fixed ball position + diagonal stance = Trackman approved success

Cheers
[/quote]

i dont think hogan invented the stance diagram recommendations, its pretty old.

By too extreme I mean too diaganol and too much width difference. I have never seen hogan vary his stance as much in video as it shows in five lessons. Most all of hogans swings his feet were square to closed maybe 1/3 to 1/2 the length of his shoe.

the first 4 lessons are hogans fundamentals of a good swing, the 5th lesson is a recap.

the recap says the diagram will vary from player to player, its one example of a setup that would work for a student of the fundamentals. hogan tested as many stances as grips finding his swing, and also taught a few duffers, there is a duffer bias in the books instructions.

people take the book to literally, like its exactly and only what hogan did on every shot, others look for some hidden codes in it. its just the basics, what you shouldn't stray from when your beating balls, according to hogans viewpoint.

[color=#1C2837]D said........... I see, so it was really you asking me about it, Jerry
P.S. Have I offended you in anything, Jerry ? I feel you are different...or maybe it's my Friday's beer... [/color]
[color="#1C2837"]
[/color]
[color="#1C2837"]It's the beer, trust me. I simply was asking if the comment was traceable to a true source as I found that to be interesting if it[/color]
[color="#1C2837"]was to be true. I rather doubt it still but no matter. They played together at Cherry Hills in 1960 and Hogan was just as impressed with a young 20 year old amateur named Nicklaus. [color=#000000]He said of Nicklaus, Don't feel sorry for me. I was paired with a kid today who could have won this thing by 10 shots if he knew what he was doing.' Jack did three-putt three of the last five greens as an amateur. Mutual admiration sort of............. but no I was just interested in the notion that Jack spent countless hours gleaning from the great Ben Hogan. I don't think it would fit his profile. He was about the business of becoming the great Jack Nicklaus. Certainly they met at other times and it goes without saying that once would have been enough for any of us to have seen Hogan and assessed his greater talents as a ball striker.[/color][/color]
Cheers, Jerry

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' date='23 January 2010 - 01:50 AM' timestamp='1264211415' post='2198058']
i dont think hogan invented the stance diagram recommendations, its pretty old.
[/quote]

Yep, it is. But Hogan was the first to publish it and brought valid arguments why it should be like that, I guess.
I agree that many pros before Hogan must have been using the D-Plane subconsciousnessly though.

Cheers

[quote name='downtoscratch' date='23 January 2010 - 12:43 PM' timestamp='1264250582' post='2198697']It's the beer, trust me. I simply was asking if the comment was traceable to a true source as I found that to be interesting if it[/color][/font]
[color="#1C2837"]was to be true. I rather doubt it still but no matter. They played together at Cherry Hills in 1960 and Hogan was just as impressed with a young 20 year old amateur named Nicklaus. [color=#000000]He said of Nicklaus, Don't feel sorry for me. I was paired with a kid today who could have won this thing by 10 shots if he knew what he was doing.' Jack did three-putt three of the last five greens as an amateur. Mutual admiration sort of............. but no I was just interested in the notion that Jack spent countless hours gleaning from the great Ben Hogan. I don't think it would fit his profile. He was about the business of becoming the great Jack Nicklaus. Certainly they met at other times and it goes without saying that once would have been enough for any of us to have seen Hogan and assessed his greater talents as a ball striker.[/color][/color]
Cheers, Jerry
[/quote]

OK, my friend, all clear.

However, I will be obstinate - I can easily imagine Nicklaus being one of those numerous pros watching Hogan practice before tournaments. Another proof is that early Nicklaus wanted to model his swing (and in fact he modelled it) on Hogan. Lastly, Jack is aware even today, as the greatest player in the history of the game, that Hogan was much better than all of them (him included) in ballstriking. I can read between verses that he wish he could own his swing like Hogan did.

Cheers