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Lie angles......and the people who are clueless.


ryan_k

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Maybe it's just me but lately on the practice green at my local 9 hole course these has been an overabundance of people using putters that are waaaaaaaaaaay out of whack for them. The lie angle looks like 10* upright for there swing. Not cheap putters either.....these guys had really nice Cameron's, Ping's, etc. Are some people that retarded?...It seems like common sense to have a putter that lays flat (or close to it) according to your setup.

 

Anyone else notice this?.....

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yes! i would say that off all my students, the putter is the club that usually fits them the worst and the one that the fewest people get fit for. It is kind of funny that people will spend hundreds to get fit for a driver but dont bother to even have their putter's lie angle checked

PGA Assistant Golf Professional
Timuquana Country Club
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One of the best putters I know putts with the heel of his Futura a good half inch off the ground. The guy is deadly.

I work at two golf courses and the ratio of ball beaters to anyone spending more than 5 minutes working on their putting is about 8 to 1. That, IMO. is one of the main reasons so many people are such crappy putters.

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[quote name='ryantherobot' date='03 May 2010 - 06:43 PM' timestamp='1272930217' post='2418607']
Maybe it's just me but lately on the practice green at my local 9 hole course these has been an overabundance of people using putters that are waaaaaaaaaaay out of whack for them. The lie angle looks like 10* upright for there swing. Not cheap putters either.....these guys had really nice Cameron's, Ping's, etc. Are some people that retarded?...It seems like common sense to have a putter that lays flat (or close to it) according to your setup.

Anyone else notice this?.....
[/quote]

Well, the nice thing to do would be to offer your advice and tips to these people. Maybe they would appreciate your advice. I realize some might tell you to pound sand, but maybe others really don't have a clue and would like what you tell them.

[font=verdana,geneva,sans-serif][size=3][color=#FF0000]10.5* PING G30 Tour 65S[/color][/size][/font]
[font=verdana,geneva,sans-serif][size=3][color=#FF0000]15* TM RBZ Matrix Ozik 7S[/color][/size][/font]
[font=verdana,geneva,sans-serif][size=3][color=#FF0000]18.5* TM RBZ Tour Matrix Ozik 7S[/color][/size][/font]
[font=verdana,geneva,sans-serif][size=3][color=#FF0000]21.5* Bio Cell Hybrid[/color][/size][/font]
[font=verdana,geneva,sans-serif][size=3][color=#FF0000]5-AW Srixon z545 C-Taper Lite S[/color][/size][/font]
[font=verdana,geneva,sans-serif][size=3][color=#FF0000]PING Glide 54*SS, 58*TS[/color][/size][/font]
[font=verdana,geneva,sans-serif][size=3][color=#FF0000]Taylormade DLL+ 36"[/color][/size][/font]

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What does it really matter to you how someone elses putter appears to fit them?? With the exception of people on sites like this one, the vast majority of golfers could care less about such things. Not saying a proper fit isn't important, just that most people don't really care. And the comment about being retarded is pretty crude.

Cobra Fly-Z driver
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Would you say the same thing to Steve Stricker? The large majority of those people have probably been putting like that for many years. Considering the putter is the most personal club in your bag, I'd rather be 100% comfortable with a putter that doesn't quite fit rather than 100% fit for a putter that doesn't feel comfortable.

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[quote name='leoh923' date='04 May 2010 - 03:30 AM' timestamp='1272972628' post='2419773']
What does it really matter to you how someone elses putter appears to fit them?? With the exception of people on sites like this one, the vast majority of golfers could care less about such things. Not saying a proper fit isn't important, just that most people don't really care. And the comment about being retarded is pretty crude.
[/quote]


[quote name='Thaddy' date='04 May 2010 - 04:58 AM' timestamp='1272977896' post='2419878']
Would you say the same thing to Steve Stricker? The large majority of those people have probably been putting like that for many years. Considering the putter is the most personal club in your bag, I'd rather be 100% comfortable with a putter that doesn't quite fit rather than 100% fit for a putter that doesn't feel comfortable.
[/quote]

You two don't get it.....I'm talking about the average joe, not a PGA professional. When the ball goes everywhere BUT the hole for 2+ hours of putting, uhhhhhh there is a problem. It was just an observation, no need to get sand in your crotch.

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I'm going to stir the pot.

Lie angles on your putter doesn't mean jack. Doesn't affect putting in the least.

You have a NASA scientist/engineer saying lie angles on your putter is not a detriment to your putting. You have PGA professionals and people who teach putting saying it does, but the fact of the matter is, scientifically speaking, it doesn't affect it at all. Face angle...YES. Lie angle...NO. Sure it's nice to have a "level" lie putter, a putter that "fits" you lie-wise, but it doesn't affect your stroke, your putt,your direction in the least bit.

Why don't people understand this? It's all in Dave Pelz's books. It's in The Search for the Persfect Swing (written in the 1960s). That book is a hard read, but it was/still is considered the Bible as far as golf equipment/research. It's all there.

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[quote name='sharkiesj' date='04 May 2010 - 08:15 AM' timestamp='1272989714' post='2420316']
Lie angles on your putter doesn't mean jack. Doesn't affect putting in the least.


[/quote]

I stopped reading after this.


So when a lie angle is 10* upright.....and the swing calls for a 5* flat......It's the same perfect putt as if the person was actually fitted properly for a putter???????

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[quote name='ryantherobot' date='04 May 2010 - 09:30 AM' timestamp='1272990642' post='2420350']
[quote name='sharkiesj' date='04 May 2010 - 08:15 AM' timestamp='1272989714' post='2420316']
Lie angles on your putter doesn't mean jack. Doesn't affect putting in the least.


[/quote]

I stopped reading after this.


So when a lie angle is 10* upright.....and the swing calls for a 5* flat......It's the same perfect putt as if the person was actually fitted properly for a putter???????
[/quote]

I stopped reading after I got to "NASA" and knew it had to be a Pelz-post.

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Find a puttlab. Calibrate the putter perfectly flat. Use a video camera form over head to track the ball off the putter.

Compare face angle, path and lie angle numbers to the viewed direction the ball leaves the putter.

I know many PGA professional that will be glad to bend your putter for you when you see the results.

You will definitely find out why the toe up players putt that way.


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Well, since you are "Ryan the Robot," then you must be talented enough to determine lie angle by eyesight alone, from a distance no less. Yes, the majority of golfers aren't fitted. Yes, the majority of golfers don't care. You and I or anyone else on this site aren't in the majority. You have two choices, offer the advice or sit there and continue shaking your head. On the other hand, who's to say that 10° lie angle wasn't "fit" to them?

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Let me explain.

Lie angle on a club with 2-4* of loft doesn't affect your roll at all. And the other thing is, I hate Dave Pelz with a passion. I've read his books but don't subscribe to his ways. I do, however, respect his scientific method, as I am amazed at his application of science to the game of golf.

Lie angles on your irons are extremely important. They do affect the flight of the ball because of the loft on your irons is substantial. However, with your putter, it's meaningless. As I said in my post, it's nice to have a fitted putter but it doesn't affect your roll at all.

Try this. Take a putter that's way too upright/too flat and putt with it. I know you won't, but if you did, your putting stats won't change a bit. If you had a putter with 10-15-20* of loft, then it would affect your roll.

I realize I'm preaching to the choir. I'll stop. Just voicing an opinion.

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I certainly understand what the OP is saying but I'm not sure his approach/attitude is going to get a very constructive conversation. And I agree, a properly fit putter is a good idea....but, depending on the stroke, a properly fit putter doesn't necessarily mean 'perfectly flat' at address.

Also, if the guy using it is consistent, it doesn't matter how 'off' his putter is - meaning, he should know exactly where the ball goes based on his stroke....if he's missing the cup by feet all over the place, I would guess that the putter (and it's specs) are only a small part of the problem.

I've also seen guys with horrible strokes, horrible set-up, etc......make a lot of putts. I play with a guy that 'slices' his putts....he's slowly worked out of that but when he did do it, he knew where the ball was going and usually made more putts than I did.

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[quote name='ryantherobot' date='04 May 2010 - 12:01 PM' timestamp='1272988870' post='2420287']
[quote name='leoh923' date='04 May 2010 - 03:30 AM' timestamp='1272972628' post='2419773']
What does it really matter to you how someone elses putter appears to fit them?? With the exception of people on sites like this one, the vast majority of golfers could care less about such things. Not saying a proper fit isn't important, just that most people don't really care. And the comment about being retarded is pretty crude.
[/quote]


[quote name='Thaddy' date='04 May 2010 - 04:58 AM' timestamp='1272977896' post='2419878']
Would you say the same thing to Steve Stricker? The large majority of those people have probably been putting like that for many years. Considering the putter is the most personal club in your bag, I'd rather be 100% comfortable with a putter that doesn't quite fit rather than 100% fit for a putter that doesn't feel comfortable.
[/quote]

You two don't get it.....I'm talking about the average joe, not a PGA professional. When the ball goes everywhere BUT the hole for 2+ hours of putting, uhhhhhh there is a problem. It was just an observation, no need to get sand in your crotch.
[/quote]

Yeah, the problem is that they suck. You think changing the lie angle will magically make the ball go into the hole? You seem to be the one with sand in your crotch, why else would you start a thread about amateurs and improperly fitting putters? If you don't want the opinion of others, don't post a thread with your "observations".

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Keep in mind that that large majority of golfers don't think like the GolfWRX population. Most of them bought their gear either a long time ago or because it was on sale. Having a proper fitting done is the last thing on their mind. Mention improper lie angle to them and they'll probably have no clue what you're talking about.

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wow, this is sure a passionate topic....i'm one of those guys looking for a better 'fit' for my putter. i hold my hands pretty low and prefer a flatter lie, at least to my eye it is a more natural setup for the club. i just got an odyssey black tour that was bent flat from the factory and so far really like it....and i'm trying to find out if cameron studio selects can be bent (within reason) without harming them....to me a flatter lie just sets up better, so i guess for me it matters!

:)

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Thaddy, you are right....I have to remember the people that are not like us. I'm pretty OCD when it comes to gear and fitting properly. Just seems to be common sense to me, but maybe not to 75% of everyone else.


I say OCD, but when I got fitted with Ping, I'm as standard as a black dot can get....all around, irons, wedges, putter........figures. :man_in_love:

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I certainly wouldn't say lie angles don't mean "jack," esp. when the difference between making a 20 footer and amissing it can be as little as a 1/4" or less on the path. However, it certainly is not the substantial impact as on a wedge. However, putters MUST be far more precise than a wedge or 5i. I think it's worth it to get the lie angle correct. Even with 2-4* of loft, at 20", the difference can be the fraction of an inch that makes a difference.

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I had no clue my lie was that far off (need 2 or 3* flat) until I was at the Byron Morgan Mixer this past March. Dave (nvgolfdude) told me that I need to adjust my lie a good bit flatter. I did that on the putter I ordered but still have my other putters at standard lie. It doesn't make a huge difference. I still put the ball in the hole in two strokes for the most part. Is it that important? I'm not sure. Does it make a marked improvement in my game? Not that I can see.

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In this case lie means absolutely nothing. To you and me yes a bit more but to the people at my local club............ i would be surprised if 10% could shoot a legit 90. For these people they dont care nor know any better.

At the same time it is my opinion that for me and you and other wrxer's it should feel right because putting is based almost entirely on feel. My putter has to [b]feel[/b] exactly the way i like it........looks, grip, weight, face balanced, etc........ and the lie is no different regardless if it is fit "right" or"wrong".

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[quote name='mac94' date='04 May 2010 - 06:32 PM' timestamp='1273023177' post='2421588']
What do you mean by "marked" improvement? Is it going to take you from a 9hcp to a 5? No. But incremental improvements, which is what this is, is how equipment makes a difference.
[/quote]

A marked improvement, with regards to putting, would be if I suddenly started to one putt every green... Does having a proper lie change how well I putt? No. I still putt well with a putter that isn't properly fit to me (my mini copper gamer).

How can you measure an incremental improvement? You miss putts by a fraction of an inch less? It's a silly argument, really. People adjust their strokes to fit their equipment all the time (aim a bit higher or lower than the hole, hit strokes more off of the heel or toe, etc.). Does it look pretty? Does it work?

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I have a simple question ....

If lie angle doesn't effect putting, if the putter is extremely upright, wouldn't that effect the actual area of the ball (think higher or lower than equator of ball) therefor the surface area and angle of the ball hit is different then the perfect lie angle coming into hitting the center/equator of the ball?

I am not sure I am asking this correctly, but I was just curious is all. I'd rather have a well fitted putter and that's just my personal preference.

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