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I am all for a challenging tee shot that makes you think about more then how far you can bomb a drive down the middle but i recently played a hole that I think is just poor design.

 

It's at brookside golf course in saline, michigan number 13 i believe. It's a 400 yard long par 4 with a pond right down the middle of the fairway. It's a 270 carry from the tips over the water and is about 80 yards long over all. So its a huge carry and a layup leaves over 200 yards into a par four. There is fairway up either side of the pond but only about 10 yards wide and then its woods on both sides as well. This course is in no way a pro style course and is a cheap local that I can't imagine many people liking this hole at all one bit myself inclued. Yesterday i hit my best drive of the day but came up short of the end of the water by a few yards. My playing partner sliced it way out of bounds. Without an incredibly long or accurate drive that most of the patrons I'd bet are incapable of, or a very short layup this hole just seems unfair.

 

Agree or disagree? Anyone have any holes like this on the courses they play?

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It sounds like a dumb design, move up a tee box or play it short of the pond and play for 5.

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Though it sounds like the hole might be overly difficult, it's hard to say fair or unfair without some more information. How long is the course if you play every hole from the tips? What would be distance needed to carry the water if you played from the tee boxes whose course length is in the neighborhood of 6200-6400 yd?

Thinking about it some more, this hole has some virtues. Since you have to layup short of the water, your first shot is fairly routine. However, you get to make a decision on your second shot. Do you go for it or layup again? Hitting a second layup shot challenges you to get up down from the fairway from whatever distance you let yourself with your second shot. Going for it gives the hole a two-shot par five flavor. Either you reach the green and putt for birdie, or you get up and down for the par.

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I didnt take any pics i posted the course map from their website. It makes the pond seem smaller but it is very imposing on the course. The course is only about 6100 from the tips so that 270 carry over the water is from the tips and the middle tees are only ten yards up so playing up doesn't change too much.

 

brookside_course.jpg

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Challenging and unfair are in the eye of the beholder. It's always easy to play armchair architect. It looks like there is some room to the right of the pond to land a drive. Even though it may be narrow. Seems like a risk / reward hole. I assume this is the #1 handicap hole for the course? I wouldn't mind playing it, looks challenging to me.

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I've got a hole like that at one of my club courses..... Number 11.

Right at 400 yards with a deep narrow green. There's a big drainage ditch that runs right through the middle at an angle. If you stay left, you can hit the tee shot about 225 to the edge, but it's only about 205 if you push it to the right before you see the ball disappear. The carry to be safe is 265.

I hit a 9-3 5 wood that usually puts me at the 205-210 number. From there, it's usually a 4 iron to try and hit the green.

Funny thing is that aside from one ball in the ditch, I almost always par it. It takes two good long shots and is actually pretty fun. The green isn't that tough since it's all uphill, so it's easy to keep the ball below the hole.

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[quote name='mbarnocki' date='01 July 2010 - 12:38 PM' timestamp='1278002297' post='2549003']
I didnt take any pics i posted the course map from their website. It makes the pond seem smaller but it is very imposing on the course. The course is only about 6100 from the tips so that 270 carry over the water is from the tips and the middle tees are only ten yards up so playing up doesn't change too much.

[/quote]

I was originally thinking that the hole might have been designed to challenge the long bombers playing from 7000 yd tees and that playing up to the middle tees would put you 40 to 60 yards closer and make it possible to carry the water. In which case, I would have said that the hole was challenging, but fair. However, that isn't the case. Part of me agrees that, absent a viable landing area to the side of hazard (In the OP, it was mentioned that there was only about 10 yards of room on either side of the hazard), the hole is a bit unfair by requiring such a long carry.

On the other hand, is it really unfair to require a golfer to hit a 200 yard shot to hit the green? The course map, for what it's worth, shows a large green on that hole. Almost like the green was intended to receive a long distance shot.

I wonder if at one time the fairway or the hazard was shaped a bit differently and there was more room to go around.

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if you can get to 200 in on that hole than I don't see any problems. 200-200 seems very reasonable. if it makes you hit from 250 or more out then thats not cool. I feel you shouldn't have anything outside of 240 since that is what most above-average hitters can hit a fw wood and pars 3's or approaches longer are stupid.

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IMO, the hole looks fair from the back tee boxes. Big hitters can take the risk/reward choice and try to clear the water, if successful leaving a wedge into the green. Shorter hitters that play the back tees (like myself) need to lay up and then hit a long iron/hybrid into the green. With no water or bunkers and a fairly large green this isn't too much to ask.

If playing off the front tees I think the hole is badly designed. From the scorecard on the courses website, the front tees play 25 yards shorter, so a 245 carry over the water. Not a shot most people playing the front tees are capable of, so they are left with a layup followed by a 200+ yard shot into the green, which is another a shot most front tee players are not capable of. For them it is unfair.

If it was up to me, I'd move the tee boxed around. Blue where Red is (376y), Red where White is (390y), White where Blue is (401y). Keep it as a par 4 off Blue, make it a par 5 for Red and White. Put a couple bunkers in front/side of the green and/or make the green a bit smaller to bring the difficulty back up on the approach.

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[quote name='TheBoomer ' date='01 July 2010 - 11:17 AM' timestamp='1277997447' post='2548857']
You get what you pay for :)


MB
[/quote]

Agreed, if you don't like it, find a new course or a better job to play a nicer one.

The layout/routing looks faulty too. Par 3 18th, that doesn't finish at the clubhouse? A trek from 15 green to 16 tee that is like walking a full hole?

It sounds reminiscent of Ponkoquogue Municipal Golf Links and Deli, from [u]Missing Links[/u].

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[quote name='petter7' date='01 July 2010 - 02:43 PM' timestamp='1278020593' post='2549596']
That lake could be there for a reason totally unrelated to the hole design.
[/quote]

LOL. Like what? A previously unknown artesian spring that was uncovered by a particularly deep divot someone cleaved out? Or perhaps an influential board member who decided a lake would look pretty there in the middle of the fairway.

I don't like the term unfair, but certainly, this hole is not particularly well designed. In fact, I would have no qualms describing it as a horrible golf hole.

Examine it in the context of the course as a whole:
Tips: 6066 yards / 68.7 / 111
Regular: 5854 / 68.7 / 106

Despite what you read on the internet, not too many golfers can carry a tee shot 270 yards. Even from the white tees, to carry the lake will require a shot of 250-260. I would say about 0% of golfers playing the white tees of a sub 6000 yard golf course have that shot.

So plainly it is a layup hole.

Looking at the aerial on Google Earth. Given a reasonable layup 15 yards short of the lake, you are left with 190 to the front, 204 to the center. A wooded canal runs up the right side and the green appears to be set very close to this hazard. There appears to be woods as well along the left side of the approx 45 yard wide fairway. The green appears to be about 5000 sq ft. Not a big target for such a long shot. Bad results with a slight miss left or right.

If I were concerned about medal score, I would play the hole as a three shotter. Hope for an up and down par, be happy with a bogey.

The rest of the course appears to be largely uninteresting. Lots of parallel, tree-lined straightaway holes. Canals zig zagging throughout with not too much concern taken from a strategic standpoint, many of the hazards seem to be of the penal school of design. "Design" might be an overstatement, my guess is this is a homemade golf course.

Of course, I always chastise people for judging a course they've never played. Perhaps there is some movement to the property that generates interest. Can't see contours from a satellite.

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A good hole design should penalise bad shots, be fairly neutral toward average shots and reward good shots.

Holes like the one you describe are examples of lazy design where hazards penalise everyone apart from the longest hitters and completely negate any concept of strategy. They feature a lot on modern courses with 2nd rate architects who have delusions of grandeur.

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  • 2 months later...

that does seem unfair even for a pro. with a 270 forced carry, even some tour players can't clear that.

there is a hole at coyote creek tournament golf course in morgan hill, ca. its a jack nickalus designed course. the senior pga tour played a tournament there for a couple years. a lot of the senior tour players said it was one of the toughest tracks they play because of the wind and design.

on hole number 3. it is a par 5 uphill into a wind (usually 10-30mph). playing from the blues (which is not the tips black tees are tips), if you hit a 250 yard drive, you have like 225 into the wind as a lay up shot to clear a creek. since that is a long shot into the wind, you can lay up short of the creek with a 140 yard shot. however, if you lay up short of the creek you have a downhill lie to a very uphill green into the wind which measures like 225. no matter how you slice it, you will have to hit a 225 yard shot uphill into the wind to make the green in regulation.

i think it is a poorly designed hole. you have to hit the ball at least 280 on the drive to be able to clear the creek on lay up shot. im not too sure what jack was thinking, but it was probably one of the young architects that designed it. he doesn't do much of the design work himself unless it is a high profile project.

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This hole does not seem unfair to me !!
Unless you need to use the driver on every
hole that you play !!! You have 14 clubs, figure
out a solid strategy, and play it !! You can beat it !!!!



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not unfair at all

 

this is the 13th hole at Kaneohe marine base, Klipper Golf Course

Par 4

436 yards from the blue if im not mistaken

 

IMG_0467.jpg

 

 

OB right, Water hazard/bushes left

 

its about 250 to the point where the fairway starts to widen,

the whole fairway slopes right to left at about 15-20 degrees

It is down hill from the tee box, but its slightly up hill into the green.

so even if you drive it 270 on this whole, you still have 180 up hill

the wind swirls here, so normally take an extra club or two, to keep it under the wind some what

On the green,

bunker short left and right.

Green diameter about 40 feet

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Maybe you could split the difference and hit your drive over in the 14th fairway? You could also play for the left rough and gouge it onto the green from there? That sounds like a pretty short course, and the only defense it may have is to have a couple tough holes here and there.

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[quote name='mbarnocki' timestamp='1277996364' post='2548823']
I am all for a challenging tee shot that makes you think about more then how far you can bomb a drive down the middle but i recently played a hole that I think is just poor design.

It's at brookside golf course in saline, michigan number 13 i believe. It's a 400 yard long par 4 with a pond right down the middle of the fairway. It's a 270 carry from the tips over the water and is about 80 yards long over all. So its a huge carry and a layup leaves over 200 yards into a par four. There is fairway up either side of the pond but only about 10 yards wide and then its woods on both sides as well. This course is in no way a pro style course and is a cheap local that I can't imagine many people liking this hole at all one bit myself inclued. Yesterday i hit my best drive of the day but came up short of the end of the water by a few yards. My playing partner sliced it way out of bounds. Without an incredibly long or accurate drive that most of the patrons I'd bet are incapable of, or a very short layup this hole just seems unfair.

Agree or disagree? Anyone have any holes like this on the courses they play?
[/quote]


Yeah, kind of a bad design. I took a look on google and the fairway right of the pond is narrow, with an area about 125 yards wide for no more than 15 yards long. Other than that the hole is just wrong.

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not unfair at all

 

this is the 13th hole at Kaneohe marine base, Klipper Golf Course

Par 4

436 yards from the blue if im not mistaken

 

IMG_0467.jpg

 

 

OB right, Water hazard/bushes left

 

its about 250 to the point where the fairway starts to widen,

the whole fairway slopes right to left at about 15-20 degrees

It is down hill from the tee box, but its slightly up hill into the green.

so even if you drive it 270 on this whole, you still have 180 up hill

the wind swirls here, so normally take an extra club or two, to keep it under the wind some what

On the green,

bunker short left and right.

Green diameter about 40 feet

 

I love this hole, I normally challenge the right side and try to play a baby draw which turns into a nice draw dead smack in the middle due to the wind. 2nd favorite hole on the island behind #2 on mamala, hickams 18 whole course. its a par 3 right on the bay, uphill but has the wind at your back normally and still plays a club longer for me.

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  • 2 weeks later...

[quote name='TMfan54' timestamp='1278088704' post='2551140']
i see nothing unfair about this hole. either go for 270 carry or hit a 200 yd club in. 200 yds is very reasonable if you choose to lay up.
[/quote]

How many weekend hackers can CARRY it 270? So then they're forced with a 200 yard shot upon layup, which they also can't hit.

Forced layups on par 4s which have a 2nd shot longer than the first is ridiculous. Terrible design.

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[quote name='funkyfedora' timestamp='1278179583' post='2552953']
Just take your par or bogey and get out of there... Suck it up and play golf... Its that way for everyone who plays it. Not just you. If they didn't like the challenge, I am sure you can find another course to play...
[/quote]

Who are you, the course architect?

Holes like this can ruin a decent track.

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I think it brings a challenge to an otherwise straight forward track. Doesn't look like there are any trees left so try to go for it over the pond but play it left a bit, so if you don't make it your in the rough worst case scenario. Big green to go after so nothing too crazy. I think it would be a love/hate on some days. But I think it is one of those holes that you will remember when you leave that course. 

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[quote name='ZBigStick' timestamp='1278087491' post='2551100']
[quote name='TheBoomer ' date='01 July 2010 - 11:17 AM' timestamp='1277997447' post='2548857']
You get what you pay for :)


MB
[/quote]

Agreed, if you don't like it, find a new course or a better job to play a nicer one.

The layout/routing looks faulty too. Par 3 18th, that doesn't finish at the clubhouse? A trek from 15 green to 16 tee that is like walking a full hole?

It sounds reminiscent of Ponkoquogue Municipal Golf Links and Deli, from [u]Missing Links[/u].
[/quote]

It looks like two mid to long irons or 2 fairway woods. Kind of dicey around the green though for FWs. I could probably play it with a couple 4 irons or even 6-irons depending on the day, but a 5 would be a good score. I could have replied to any post with that comment, but just wanted to say you have the best avatar in the history of the world.

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