Pros w/ BIG CAVITY BACKS?!

At the 2010 St. Jude Classic, I noticed that quite a few players were gaming big, oversized irons. Chris Riley was playing offset-loaded g15 irons with a wide sole. K.J. Choi used g15s. Plus, plenty of Ping staffers are using the "somewhat meatier" i15s. Kenny Perry used to use r7s. Do they really like the look? Do they need forgiveness and are they workable? Where's the stereotypical pro with blades?

I think the stereotypical pro blade is no longer the stereotype, my friend. More and more of the guys getting paid to play are going to some kind of game improvement club. They're simply taking advantage of the available technology. While their swings are MUCH better than the average guy or gal, they do still make mistakes. Today's game also places a greater emphasis on power than finesse. Professionals aren't required to work shots as much as they used to.

[quote name='LorenRobertsFan' timestamp='1290895667' post='2811719']
Where's the stereotypical pro with blades?
[/quote]
Currently at #2 and #3 in the world rankings?
Interesting that the current world #1 is a long-time oversized iron user. It wasn't so long ago that he was still gaming Ping Zing 2's - shovels by all accounts. Not forgetting Monty's long dominance of the European Tour with Callaway Big Bertha irons. Not that either player really needed the forgiveness they provide. Perhaps we need to get them on this forum and set them straight..."it's like this Lee - you really need to be playing forged blades at your current ranking. Have you heard of Miura?"

[quote name='jaskanski' timestamp='1290896828' post='2811755']
[quote name='LorenRobertsFan' timestamp='1290895667' post='2811719']
Where's the stereotypical pro with blades?
[/quote]
Currently at #2 and #3 in the world rankings?
Interesting that the current world #1 is a long-time oversized iron user. It wasn't so long ago that he was still gaming Ping Zing 2's - shovels by all accounts. Not forgetting Monty's long dominance of the European Tour with Callaway Big Bertha irons. Not that either player really needed the forgiveness they provide. Perhaps we need to get them on this forum and set them straight..."it's like this Lee - you really need to be playing forged blades at your current ranking. Have you heard of Miura?"
[/quote]

haha we really should sit Mr. Westwood down and have a heart to heart.

On the topic of this never-ending blade v. cavity debate, I don't think cavities or blades play as big of a part in shots if the player is in the upper tier of talent. The benefits of cavities (mostly more distance and a tendency to not deviate off-center) are taken better advantage of by higher handicappers.

Troy Merritt plays the the titleist AP1's

Modern ball spins less. Many players benefit from the higher launch of these clubs. Doesn't hurt that they are more forgiving too.

Not sure if he still games them, but Calc played Ping i5s for a very long time. Westwood plays i10s.

Several Titleist staffers play the AP2's. Manassero, Kevin Na, Zach Johnson and many more.

Golf is very much a game of confidence. There are plenty of guys on here that are probably hard pressed to break 90 that play blades and dump one $300 shaft for another because one "feels better and spins less." There are also plenty of 10 handicaps that are closer to a 2 that take your money with GI irons. Funny example, Westwood plays i10's with JZ stiff shafts because they work. Do you think if he randomly went to a Ping demo day that he would fit into JZ stiff? Hes the #1 ranked player in the world with ill fit clubs, but their ill fit clubs that he is confident in. Its always funny to me when that 10 handicap scoffs at a guy using AP2's or i15's because they don't feel as good as his Miura blades.

[quote name='BigLeftyAllAmerican' timestamp='1290897217' post='2811764']
Troy Merritt plays the the titleist AP1's
[/quote]

As does Ben Curtis.

[quote name='williamo' timestamp='1290899293' post='2811823']
Several Titleist staffers play the AP2's. Manassero, Kevin Na, Zach Johnson and many more.
[/quote]


And those are not "shovels" or game improvement irons by any stretch of the imagination. I have been through 2 sets now and if you miss the nuts with AP2s you know about it..

AP2 = Players Cavity only calling it a cavity because it has one. The clubs sole and face width are generally that of a blade.

[quote name='SOONERMAGIC' timestamp='1290973034' post='2812980']
[quote name='williamo' timestamp='1290899293' post='2811823']
Several Titleist staffers play the AP2's. Manassero, Kevin Na, Zach Johnson and many more.
[/quote]


And those are not "shovels" or game improvement irons by any stretch of the imagination. I have been through 2 sets now and if you miss the nuts with AP2s you know about it..

AP2 = Players Cavity only calling it a cavity because it has one. The clubs sole and face width are generally that of a blade.
[/quote]
^^^^^ I absolutely agree! My friend plays AP2s, and unless you're on the ground looking at the cavity you would SWEAR that they're blades. 4-5 irons especially! Toe hits fizzle out

Whatever gets the job done.

[quote name='Dizz' timestamp='1290900058' post='2811846']
Golf is very much a game of confidence. There are plenty of guys on here that are probably hard pressed to break 90 that play blades and dump one $300 shaft for another because one "feels better and spins less." There are also plenty of 10 handicaps that are closer to a 2 that take your money with GI irons. Funny example, Westwood plays i10's with JZ stiff shafts because they work. Do you think if he randomly went to a Ping demo day that he would fit into JZ stiff? Hes the #1 ranked player in the world with ill fit clubs, but their ill fit clubs that he is confident in. Its always funny to me when that 10 handicap scoffs at a guy using AP2's or i15's because they don't feel as good as his Miura blades.
[/quote]

Westwood plays a softer shaft in his irons because he does not have an overly fast swing speed. But he traps the ball and delofts his clubs better than any player I have witnessed. He pures everything so it is not always how fast you swing but how close you hit it on the center of the club head IMO. I will take a 105mph swing speed hit in the dead center over a 120mph swing speed which misses the center an 1/8'' everytime. The 105 will hit it straighter and longer.

[quote name='VTHOKIES' timestamp='1291051567' post='2814264']
[quote name='Dizz' timestamp='1290900058' post='2811846']
Golf is very much a game of confidence. There are plenty of guys on here that are probably hard pressed to break 90 that play blades and dump one $300 shaft for another because one "feels better and spins less." There are also plenty of 10 handicaps that are closer to a 2 that take your money with GI irons. Funny example, Westwood plays i10's with JZ stiff shafts because they work. Do you think if he randomly went to a Ping demo day that he would fit into JZ stiff? Hes the #1 ranked player in the world with ill fit clubs, but their ill fit clubs that he is confident in. Its always funny to me when that 10 handicap scoffs at a guy using AP2's or i15's because they don't feel as good as his Miura blades.
[/quote]

Westwood plays a softer shaft in his irons because he does not have an overly fast swing speed. But he traps the ball and delofts his clubs better than any player I have witnessed. He pures everything so it is not always how fast you swing but how close you hit it on the center of the club head IMO. I will take a 105mph swing speed hit in the dead center over a 120mph swing speed which misses the center an 1/8'' everytime. The 105 will hit it straighter and longer.
[/quote]

Westwood swings it harder than 105.

[quote name='VTHOKIES' timestamp='1291051567' post='2814264']
Westwood plays a softer shaft in his irons because he does not have an overly fast swing speed.  
[/quote]

About 118mph according to his Trackman.

someone once told me tour pros will use game improvement irons because if some of them were to work the ball they way they do with blades, the hooks and cuts they miss would be uncontrollable. could be complete bogus, but i believe it.

Alot of the pros today learned the game playing cast cavity back irons. It's what they grew up with and they have a comfort level with them.

I'm getting ready to give Burner 2.0s a try. The last three sets I've played have been Mizuno TZoid Trues, Taylormade TP MBs, and 09 Tour Preferreds. I'm about a +2 handicap and I don't like to work the ball much. I'm looking forward to trying them at regular specs (38.75" 5 iron and 47* PW). Since I'm looking for more area to miss the center rather than extra distance I think the shorter lengths will add to consistency and the extra loft will take a little offset out of them. On paper it seems like a good idea for a stronger golfer who doesn't care about working the ball.

[quote name='Dizz' timestamp='1291052111' post='2814278']
[quote name='VTHOKIES' timestamp='1291051567' post='2814264']
[quote name='Dizz' timestamp='1290900058' post='2811846']
Golf is very much a game of confidence. There are plenty of guys on here that are probably hard pressed to break 90 that play blades and dump one $300 shaft for another because one "feels better and spins less." There are also plenty of 10 handicaps that are closer to a 2 that take your money with GI irons. Funny example, Westwood plays i10's with JZ stiff shafts because they work. Do you think if he randomly went to a Ping demo day that he would fit into JZ stiff? Hes the #1 ranked player in the world with ill fit clubs, but their ill fit clubs that he is confident in. Its always funny to me when that 10 handicap scoffs at a guy using AP2's or i15's because they don't feel as good as his Miura blades.
[/quote]

Westwood plays a softer shaft in his irons because he does not have an overly fast swing speed. But he traps the ball and delofts his clubs better than any player I have witnessed. He pures everything so it is not always how fast you swing but how close you hit it on the center of the club head IMO. I will take a 105mph swing speed hit in the dead center over a 120mph swing speed which misses the center an 1/8'' everytime. The 105 will hit it straighter and longer.
[/quote]

Westwood swings it harder than 105.
[/quote]

If you read my post I did not say Westwood's swing speed was 105. I just mentioned that it is not overly fast. He just hits the ball dead square on the center and his distance is directly related to this more so than swing speed.

[quote name='VTHOKIES' timestamp='1291072996' post='2814815']
[quote name='Dizz' timestamp='1291052111' post='2814278']
[quote name='VTHOKIES' timestamp='1291051567' post='2814264']
[quote name='Dizz' timestamp='1290900058' post='2811846']
Golf is very much a game of confidence. There are plenty of guys on here that are probably hard pressed to break 90 that play blades and dump one $300 shaft for another because one "feels better and spins less." There are also plenty of 10 handicaps that are closer to a 2 that take your money with GI irons. Funny example, Westwood plays i10's with JZ stiff shafts because they work. Do you think if he randomly went to a Ping demo day that he would fit into JZ stiff? Hes the #1 ranked player in the world with ill fit clubs, but their ill fit clubs that he is confident in. Its always funny to me when that 10 handicap scoffs at a guy using AP2's or i15's because they don't feel as good as his Miura blades.
[/quote]

Westwood plays a softer shaft in his irons because he does not have an overly fast swing speed. But he traps the ball and delofts his clubs better than any player I have witnessed. He pures everything so it is not always how fast you swing but how close you hit it on the center of the club head IMO. I will take a 105mph swing speed hit in the dead center over a 120mph swing speed which misses the center an 1/8'' everytime. The 105 will hit it straighter and longer.
[/quote]

Westwood swings it harder than 105.
[/quote]

If you read my post I did not say Westwood's swing speed was 105. I just mentioned that it is not overly fast. He just hits the ball dead square on the center and his distance is directly related to this more so than swing speed.
[/quote]

As Mat already stated he swings it 118 mph. Regardless of what you believe, speed is the greatest attribute to distance. Of course I'm not talking about the guys that are bad golfers. A guy that swings 120 and slightly mishits the driver will hit it further than someone who flushes it at 105. Simple math, Clubhead speed 120 x 1.4 (which is a pretty poor mis-hit) = 168 ball speed. 105 x 1.5 (perfect ball speed) = 157.5...certainly when you're talking about enormous hooks, fades etc it may not work that way but the ball should travel further. Bottom line someone that swings it 118 mph with the driver would more than likely not be fit into JZ Stiff.

The industry standard is 5% of a golf company's gross sales goes towards paying professionals to use their clubs.

If companies were paying me the money that these guys get, I'd play what ever shovels they wanted me to play, toaster ovens off the tee, or spaceship looking putters on the greens.

I believe Lee has played ping his whole life. I'm sure a blade just wouldnt look right to him.

If some people on here want the image of playing blades, I don't fault them. Blades look better and what does it matter if they shoot 74 instead of 73? I was in thast boat just a couple of years ago.

But tour pros are playing for millions, and they should be more concerned about performance than looks. That 1 shot a round could be the difference in making a cut, not just in losing a $5 nassau.

I wonder if Phil, Ernie or Tiger would hit it straighter if they used cavity backs instead of blades? None has ever been straight relative to the competition. Maybe they are hurting themsleves? Impossible to know fromthe outside looking in.

Doesn't the "feedback" factor come into play?

- That one of the advantages to true blades is the feedback on where you hit it?

Also, what it the truth (or not) about occasional fliers with cavity backs, especially with the shorter irons?

I am no scratch golfer (am a 6 handicapper)....have always played blades due to the feel and feedback I get. Also, a slightly thin shot is still 5 yards short of the green and still on line, maybe a bit right. Don't think a cavity back improves that type of miss much more.

Hit some Mizuno MP 60's once which did make me realize I might go to cavity back one day.

[quote name='duckhook' timestamp='1291130794' post='2815923']
If some people on here want the image of playing blades, I don't fault them. Blades look better and what does it matter if they shoot 74 instead of 73? I was in thast boat just a couple of years ago.

But tour pros are playing for millions, and they should be more concerned about performance than looks. That 1 shot a round could be the difference in making a cut, not just in losing a $5 nassau.

I wonder if Phil, Ernie or Tiger would hit it straighter if they used cavity backs instead of blades? None has ever been straight relative to the competition. Maybe they are hurting themsleves? Impossible to know fromthe outside looking in.
[/quote]

I don't think it's Tiger's iron play that's been his problem. Personally, I think he should go back to whatever driver he was using circa 1999/2000, when he continually blew away the field--can't remember if it was a 975D or that bore-through Cobra. Dynamic Gold X100, 43.75". It may not have the tech available today, but it clearly worked better for him than anything he's played since then--it seemed like everything was 300 in the middle of the fairway.

I remember Johan Edfors playing with Callaway X-18's during 2006 when he was playing so good. Those irons have quite a bit of offset and they're pretty big too.

When some of these guys grew up playing Pings (Eye 2) going back to a larger cavity back is probably a bit easier of an adjustment than say going from Blades to a GI type iron. I think the Mix sets are whats going to be more and more prevelant than just going all larger Cavity backs.

Kevin
HULL17RW

[quote name='mdb0103' timestamp='1291062200' post='2814481']
someone once told me tour pros will use game improvement irons because if some of them were to work the ball they way they do with blades, the hooks and cuts they miss would be uncontrollable. could be complete bogus, but i believe it.
[/quote]

Totally true. I play blades because I like the feel, but play a lower spinning ball (NXT Tour) because I overwork the ball, and I am no pro. Blades are so much easier to work the ball with that you have to be careful, don't want to hit duck hooks in a tournament!

I want to know how some of these guys are still playing older sets of irons, that when I look on the conforming list, they say they don't conform to the new groove rule. i.e. Jeff Quinney playing the G5's.