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Can you come over the top even a LITTLE and stll have a solid swing?

 Pauly567 ·  
Pauly567Pauly567 Members  274WRX Points: 204Posts: 274 Greens
Joined:  edited Jan 7, 2011 in Instruction & Academy #1
I got a chance to videotape my swing at my last range session. When I got home and watched the video I noticed that I do have a SLIGHT move over the top. When I say slight, if you watch the video frame by frame you will see that when I start my downswing, my hands move 1 frame forward (towards the ball) and then go down towards the ball. Regardsless of how small the movement is, it's still considered an over the top swing and a 'reverse loop". I've been watching a lot of the Haney Project and he's explained the concept of the "Loop" over and over again. While my loop works from back to front, and is probably undetectable without video (it really is that small), it's still an over the top motion. When I watch video of tour players, it seems like there is no loop in their swing at all, the club comes down on the exact path it went up, or even inside of it. <br />
<br />
That said, I'm hitting the ball better then I ever have (which doesn't say much I'm still a 16 handicap), but I don't want to start heading down a road that's incorrect. So do I change my swing an learn how to have the club fall inside the line I took it back on? Or, is a SLIGHT over the top movement acceptable?
Posted:
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  • QWKDTSNQWKDTSN Dreaming of Bandon Members  2999WRX Points: 3Posts: 2,999 Titanium Tees
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    Depends on your planes, but this guy played pretty good golf with a reverse loop - Bobby Jones went across the line with the club, then lifted the hands, put the club on plane, and swung through.<br />
    <br />
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  • russcrussc Members  388WRX Points: 0Posts: 388
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    QWKDTSN wrote:
    <br />
    Depends on your planes, but this guy played pretty good golf with a reverse loop - Bobby Jones went across the line with the club, then lifted the hands, put the club on plane, and swung through.<br />
    <br />
    [url=&quot; />
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    And Sam Snead"s downswing plane was slightly outside of his backswing plan
    Posted:
  • trapsmv15trapsmv15 Plattsburgh, NYMembers  1760WRX Points: 124Handicap: 8Posts: 1,760 Platinum Tees
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    I think Leitzke, Stadler, Calcavecchia, and Parry would say yes.
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  • douggolf4douggolf4 Jr. Boomers  498WRX Points: 0Posts: 498
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    You are really just caring the club a little bit towards the ball. If you look at a lot of tour player swings in really slow motion you will see that a good bit of them do the same. I have the v1 golf app and at the speed those videos are, you can see the slight carry.
    Posted:
  • wmblake2000wmblake2000 Los AngelesMembers  6027WRX Points: 768Posts: 6,027 Titanium Tees
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    Pauly567 wrote:
    <br />
    So do I change my swing an learn how to have the club fall inside the line I took it back on? Or, is a SLIGHT over the top movement acceptable?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I started from a place where I was way OTT, but reasonably quickly I got the swing to be similar to what you describe. I have to tell you it has taken me a while to solve the last piece of that puzzle, and I do not believe it brings enormous improvement to my ball striking. At some point, I just wanted to do it damnit because of the challenge and aesthetic of it.
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  • HitEmTrueHitEmTrue North TexasMembers  6838WRX Points: 610Posts: 6,838 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Jan 7, 2011 #7
    For what it's worth, your hands can move forward a little and your swing still not be over the top. Maybe you were far inside (under plane) to start with, right?
    Posted:
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  • petter7petter7 Members  1620WRX Points: 55Posts: 1,620 Bunkers
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    trapsmv15 wrote:
    <br />
    I think Leitzke, Stadler, Calcavecchia, and Parry would say yes.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    McLean's take on Lietzke's swing. Enjoy. biggrin.gif<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    [media] />
    <br />
    <br />
    Posted:
  • Pauly567Pauly567 Members  274WRX Points: 204Posts: 274 Greens
    Joined:  edited Jan 7, 2011 #9
    HitEmTrue wrote:
    <br />
    For what it's worth, your hands can move forward a little and your swing still not be over the top. Maybe you were far inside (under plane) to start with, right?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    That's an intersting point. Yes, I did notice that I'm taking the club too far to the inside, it's something I need to work on. Hopefully this will help. I don't know why I associate taking the club to the inside with a flatter swing plane. When I first started I was really steep and gradually I got the club to flatten out. For whatever reason though I associate inside with flat. It's something I need to spend some time on in the offseason. Any tips?
    Posted:
  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers  19093WRX Points: 1,758Posts: 19,093 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Jan 7, 2011 #10
    Pauly567 wrote:
    <br />
    I got a chance to videotape my swing at my last range session. When I got home and watched the video I noticed that I do have a SLIGHT move over the top. When I say slight, if you watch the video frame by frame you will see that when I start my downswing, my hands move 1 frame forward (towards the ball) and then go down towards the ball. Regardsless of how small the movement is, it's still considered an over the top swing and a 'reverse loop". I've been watching a lot of the Haney Project and he's explained the concept of the "Loop" over and over again. While my loop works from back to front, and is probably undetectable without video (it really is that small), it's still an over the top motion. When I watch video of tour players, it seems like there is no loop in their swing at all, the club comes down on the exact path it went up, or even inside of it. <br />
    <br />
    That said, I'm hitting the ball better then I ever have (which doesn't say much I'm still a 16 handicap), but I don't want to start heading down a road that's incorrect. So do I change my swing an learn how to have the club fall inside the line I took it back on? Or, is a SLIGHT over the top movement acceptable?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    This post is why I hate the information that's out there so much.<br />
    <br />
    You have a guy like Peter Kostis raking Bryce Molder's swing over the coals for being over the top. Molder's swing is so slightly over the top, you need to see it in slo mo to see it.<br />
    <br />
    The guy is on frickin Tour, but when you have guys like Kostis, Haney and everyone else all over the World pontificating on the evils of over the top, people like the OP with solid swings and good golf games, ruin their swings and their games because they think they have to.<br />
    <br />
    Stop the madness.<br />
    <br />
    While according to the definition you may be technically over the top...Pauley, you are not over the top in the practical sense. Don't micromanage your swing so much and you will sleep better.<br />
    <br />
    EDITED: It is my opinion that slightly over the top is far superior to play good golf than being stuck under the plane, but OTT is vilified and swinging inside/out is promoted to the extreme.
    Posted:
  • trapsmv15trapsmv15 Plattsburgh, NYMembers  1760WRX Points: 124Handicap: 8Posts: 1,760 Platinum Tees
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    petter7 wrote:
    <br />
    trapsmv15 wrote:
    <br />
    I think Leitzke, Stadler, Calcavecchia, and Parry would say yes.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    McLean's take on Lietzke's swing. Enjoy. biggrin.gif<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    [media] />
    <br />
    AWESOME. Thank you!
    Posted:

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  • freshprince99freshprince99 Unregistered  1362WRX Points: 1Posts: 1,362 Platinum Tees
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    many many good players (above mentioned) came over their backswing plane and played some great golf. the thing to remember about these players is that while they were over their backswing plane they were not "over the top" in the classical sense of a poorer player who attacks the ball from way from the outside on the downswing with a very steep angle of attack and the glancing blow with the face wide open. these great players still attacked the ball from the inside, their backswings were just further inside.<br />
    <br />
    +1 for what monte said, i absolutely agree that its better to be a little over the top than a little under the plane.
    Posted:
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  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers  19093WRX Points: 1,758Posts: 19,093 Titanium Tees
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    <br />
    many many good players (above mentioned) came over their backswing plane and played some great golf. the thing to remember about these players is that while they were over their backswing plane they were not "over the top" in the classical sense of a poorer player who attacks the ball from way from the outside on the downswing with a very steep angle of attack and the glancing blow with the face wide open. these great players still attacked the ball from the inside, their backswings were just further inside.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    This is an awesome point that few people realize. If you listened to Peter Kostis analyze Molder's swing during an event last year, I don't think he understands this.
    Posted:
  • freshprince99freshprince99 Unregistered  1362WRX Points: 1Posts: 1,362 Platinum Tees
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    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    This is an awesome point that few people realize. If you listened to Peter Kostis analyze Molder's swing during an event last year, I don't think he understands this.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    without getting too far into the situation Kostis used to work with Molder, and the relationship was strained when Molder left. I think you are referring to the colonial last year correct? i remember thinking the same thing, that Kostis was being pretty negative but i just chalked it up to the fact that Molder left him. things get a little sketchy with certain top teachers when their players leave them.
    Posted:
  • Gupps01Gupps01 Members  420WRX Points: 0Posts: 420
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    I'm pretty sure that Carl Petterssen has done alright coming slightly over the top
    Posted:
  • tigerphantigerphan Members  1247WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,247
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    sam snead did a nice job of it
    Posted:
  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers  19093WRX Points: 1,758Posts: 19,093 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #17
    <br />
    <br />
    This is an awesome point that few people realize. If you listened to Peter Kostis analyze Molder's swing during an event last year, I don't think he understands this.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    without getting too far into the situation Kostis used to work with Molder, and the relationship was strained when Molder left. I think you are referring to the colonial last year correct? i remember thinking the same thing, that Kostis was being pretty negative but i just chalked it up to the fact that Molder left him. things get a little sketchy with certain top teachers when their players leave them.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    This heightens my perception that Kostis is less than an authority...and a tool.
    Posted:
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  • nitramnitram WestOK, on the South Canadian Riviera Members  5885WRX Points: 503Handicap: -.6Posts: 5,885 Titanium Tees
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    stage1350 wrote:
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    Any swing is a good swing if it is repeatable and predictable. See Jim Furyk.<br />
    <br />
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    <br />
    Verbatim what I was gonna say. <img src='http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/good.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':good:' />
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  • tigerfan23tigerfan23 Members  8044WRX Points: 374Posts: 8,044 Titanium Tees
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    Gupps01 wrote:
    <br />
    I'm pretty sure that Carl Petterssen has done alright coming slightly over the top<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    he comes WAY over the top!<br />
    <br />
    This swing is like an elephant in a phone booth in slow motion!
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  • gmbtempegmbtempe Members  1218WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,218
    Joined:  edited Jan 9, 2011 #20
    The swing needs to be related to a plane line, and if that plane line is moving around it makes it real tricky to determine if its over the top/under plane. Snead had his baseline well left of his stance line, he was not over the top. The camera needs to be placed perpendicular to the plane line and not the stance line. This is tough to do unless you know where the face is aimed and where the player is directing their plane line. Stance line is misleading at best.
    Posted:
  • gators78gators78 ClubWRX  4038WRX Points: 234Handicap: 3Posts: 4,038 ClubWRX
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    I played my best golf when I had a little over the top move, that club was always in front of me and my misses were fairly minimal. As soon as I started to get the draw going and hitting it under my misses were excessive and both ways. The main reason for switching was my wedges were all over the place if I got the OTT going too much, so it was an attempt to be more consistent. Whoops.
    Posted:
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  • TMLTML Members  1792WRX Points: 57Posts: 1,792 Platinum Tees
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    kgeorge78 wrote:
    <br />
    Gupps01 wrote:
    <br />
    I'm pretty sure that Carl Petterssen has done alright coming slightly over the top<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    he comes WAY over the top!<br />
    <br />
    This swing is like an elephant in a phone booth in slow motion!<br />
    <br />
    i wouldn't say way over. The guy hits it pure with a slight over the top move. If anyone had his swing, his talent and his career, you'd have to be a maniac to criticize his swing.
    Posted:
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  • golfsavvygolfsavvy Golfsavvy Members  1418WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,418
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    "That said, I'm hitting the ball better then I ever have"<br />
    <br />
    If the ball is doing what you want it to do, what's the problem? Work off the ball flight. Don't change your swing because you think you should. Change it if you want the ball to do something else... In golf, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Do it your way.<br />
    <br />
    And everybody else has posted examples. Lietzke's my hero, even though I don't swing like him...
    Posted:
  • geesecougar2geesecougar2 Members  2079WRX Points: 150Handicap: 6Posts: 2,079 Platinum Tees
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    Phil has a slight over the top move as well, it's become less pronounced since working with Butch but it's still there.
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