Releasing the Hands/Clubhead

There will be many schools of thought on this subject. The answer is usually an individualistic one. IMO most higher handicap golfers reverse roll the club face to an open position throughout the golf swing.(usually the downswing but not limited to.)So for the higher handicap IMO throughout there swing even when there pivot upgrades they will need to be turning the club face to what feels closed.

There's a lot of very bright people here who speak to just this question, but from someone like me who's tried exactly what you're asking I'll have a go.
Trying to time a roll of your hands to square a face is just like timing a flip. A fraction off and you're in the weeds. But if you use the big muscles to rotate your body then your hands will natural square around to a close to required in-to-out square.
I love this vid of JByrd. If you can download the video and slow it down you can see that the real wrist rolling occurs *after* he hits it, before that it's his lower body that steers the club into the ball. 'Easy Power' they call it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gQmoNe4a_s&feature=player_embedded

Easy power, I like that alot!

I don't see many high handicappers who try releasing the club with their bodies being very successful. Especially when they have never felt what it is like to control the club face. I see many more tour level players with more body type releases to counter some of their already over done use of the (hands, arms and club face.) Not saying it cant be done (as I am sure many may prefer the body release) However IMO MOST people need some turning of the club face.

i think that the difference is that most better players have trained their hands and no longer think about it. so while you see in a video like that one with jonathan byrd he does appear to release the club aggressively but it is more something that happens, he subconciously knows how to do it. that is why better players will more frequently talk about what their body is doing, their hands allready know what to do so they dont think about it. i know that personally i release the club aggressively and you can see that if you look at my swing but i dont think about it, after years of practice its pretty well ingrained, but i did have to train it early on, i remember when i was 16/17 i spent a lot of time making L to L swings, taking the club on the backswing to where my left arm is paralell to the ground and the arm and the shaft make a 90 degree angle and swing through to where your right arm is paralell with the ground and the right arm and the shaft make a 90 degree angle. (i think this is what slicefixers 9 to 3 drill is all about, although i dont know for sure, you should check it out though). the point is that i trained my hands to know what to do. i think that most amateurs who you see flipping at the ball rather than allowing the face to turn over (if thats what you want to do) have not trained their hands and arms what to do, so this may be something you need to learn. but if you are trying to make full speed swings and do it conciously you will be erratic, its too hard to control at full speed.

we can get into a debate here about how body rotation affects the appearance of the release or how you want to release the club, its a hotly contested subject.

[quote name='freshprince99' timestamp='1295056140' post='2897615']
i think that the difference is that most better players have trained their hands and no longer think about it. so while you see in a video like that one with jonathan byrd he does appear to release the club aggressively but it is more something that happens, he subconciously knows how to do it. that is why better players will more frequently talk about what their body is doing, their hands allready know what to do so they dont think about it. i know that personally i release the club aggressively and you can see that if you look at my swing but i dont think about it, after years of practice its pretty well ingrained, but i did have to train it early on, i remember when i was 16/17 i spent a lot of time making L to L swings, taking the club on the backswing to where my left arm is paralell to the ground and the arm and the shaft make a 90 degree angle and swing through to where your right arm is paralell with the ground and the right arm and the shaft make a 90 degree angle. (i think this is what slicefixers 9 to 3 drill is all about, although i dont know for sure, you should check it out though). the point is that i trained my hands to know what to do. i think that most amateurs who you see flipping at the ball rather than allowing the face to turn over (if thats what you want to do) have not trained their hands and arms what to do, so this may be something you need to learn. but if you are trying to make full speed swings and do it conciously you will be erratic, its too hard to control at full speed.

we can get into a debate here about how body rotation affects the appearance of the release or how you want to release the club, its a hotly contested subject.
[/quote]

So I guess it's a conscious effort on the practice tee until muscle memory kicks in and then you can take it to the course?

[quote name='ihatebogies' timestamp='1295041102' post='2897129']
I was at the practice tee and was purposely trying to draw the ball by really concentrating on getting my hands to release through the ball. Every once in a while the ball really had a great baby draw ball flight and the contact felt very pure. Most times though I was hitting low left quackers. Is there a conscious effort on your part to get the hands through and the club to turn over for you guys that hit pure shots or is it just the result of a good swing that produces a good ball flight without any real thought of turning the club over?
[/quote]

The amount a club is supposed to release is actually a very natural thing and the body will produce it in the course of a good golf swing if you don't do anything to stop iot from happening. Problem is if you have practiced holding lag, or you have a cast move, your body has no idea what a natural release is and you need to train it.

If you are hitting quackers, your swing path is probably too far from the inside, because if you release early from a path down the line, you will generally just hit a pull.

[quote name='ihatebogies' timestamp='1295059902' post='2897738']
[quote name='freshprince99' timestamp='1295056140' post='2897615']
i think that the difference is that most better players have trained their hands and no longer think about it. so while you see in a video like that one with jonathan byrd he does appear to release the club aggressively but it is more something that happens, he subconciously knows how to do it. that is why better players will more frequently talk about what their body is doing, their hands allready know what to do so they dont think about it. i know that personally i release the club aggressively and you can see that if you look at my swing but i dont think about it, after years of practice its pretty well ingrained, but i did have to train it early on, i remember when i was 16/17 i spent a lot of time making L to L swings, taking the club on the backswing to where my left arm is paralell to the ground and the arm and the shaft make a 90 degree angle and swing through to where your right arm is paralell with the ground and the right arm and the shaft make a 90 degree angle. (i think this is what slicefixers 9 to 3 drill is all about, although i dont know for sure, you should check it out though). the point is that i trained my hands to know what to do. i think that most amateurs who you see flipping at the ball rather than allowing the face to turn over (if thats what you want to do) have not trained their hands and arms what to do, so this may be something you need to learn. but if you are trying to make full speed swings and do it conciously you will be erratic, its too hard to control at full speed.

we can get into a debate here about how body rotation affects the appearance of the release or how you want to release the club, its a hotly contested subject.
[/quote]

So I guess it's a conscious effort on the practice tee until muscle memory kicks in and then you can take it to the course?
[/quote]

I agree with that 100%

Agree with the Prince again -- there's a difference between a roll and release, and it is affected by body rotation and balance. His 9 to 3 drill is a good one. Aggressive release isn't the same as aggressive wrist roll. Some guys on tour NEVER release (Duval? Strong grip tho.) Wrist roll is wrist roll. A full release is when the left forearm and shaft reach 90 degrees. If you aggressively extend and roll you may be delaying or restricting the release. If you aggressively release it's difficult to extend and roll. Ernie's an extend and roll guy, Toms and Singh are more releasers. Tiger does whatever he needs to in order to hit the shot he wants (or used to, at least).

In my opinion, if you have 0 tension, you're swing will naturally release your hands/arms through the shot and into the finish.

[quote name='ihatebogies' timestamp='1295059902' post='2897738']
[quote name='freshprince99' timestamp='1295056140' post='2897615']
i think that the difference is that most better players have trained their hands and no longer think about it. so while you see in a video like that one with jonathan byrd he does appear to release the club aggressively but it is more something that happens, he subconciously knows how to do it. that is why better players will more frequently talk about what their body is doing, their hands allready know what to do so they dont think about it. i know that personally i release the club aggressively and you can see that if you look at my swing but i dont think about it, after years of practice its pretty well ingrained, but i did have to train it early on, i remember when i was 16/17 i spent a lot of time making L to L swings, taking the club on the backswing to where my left arm is paralell to the ground and the arm and the shaft make a 90 degree angle and swing through to where your right arm is paralell with the ground and the right arm and the shaft make a 90 degree angle. (i think this is what slicefixers 9 to 3 drill is all about, although i dont know for sure, you should check it out though). the point is that i trained my hands to know what to do. i think that most amateurs who you see flipping at the ball rather than allowing the face to turn over (if thats what you want to do) have not trained their hands and arms what to do, so this may be something you need to learn. but if you are trying to make full speed swings and do it conciously you will be erratic, its too hard to control at full speed.

we can get into a debate here about how body rotation affects the appearance of the release or how you want to release the club, its a hotly contested subject.
[/quote]

So I guess it's a conscious effort on the practice tee until muscle memory kicks in and then you can take it to the course?
[/quote]

you got it, like so many other things in this game its a learned thing, the great thing about it is that once you learn it you have it.

[quote name='freshprince99' timestamp='1295064958' post='2897881']
[quote name='ihatebogies' timestamp='1295059902' post='2897738']
[quote name='freshprince99' timestamp='1295056140' post='2897615']
i think that the difference is that most better players have trained their hands and no longer think about it. so while you see in a video like that one with jonathan byrd he does appear to release the club aggressively but it is more something that happens, he subconciously knows how to do it. that is why better players will more frequently talk about what their body is doing, their hands allready know what to do so they dont think about it. i know that personally i release the club aggressively and you can see that if you look at my swing but i dont think about it, after years of practice its pretty well ingrained, but i did have to train it early on, i remember when i was 16/17 i spent a lot of time making L to L swings, taking the club on the backswing to where my left arm is paralell to the ground and the arm and the shaft make a 90 degree angle and swing through to where your right arm is paralell with the ground and the right arm and the shaft make a 90 degree angle. (i think this is what slicefixers 9 to 3 drill is all about, although i dont know for sure, you should check it out though). the point is that i trained my hands to know what to do. i think that most amateurs who you see flipping at the ball rather than allowing the face to turn over (if thats what you want to do) have not trained their hands and arms what to do, so this may be something you need to learn. but if you are trying to make full speed swings and do it conciously you will be erratic, its too hard to control at full speed.

we can get into a debate here about how body rotation affects the appearance of the release or how you want to release the club, its a hotly contested subject.
[/quote]

So I guess it's a conscious effort on the practice tee until muscle memory kicks in and then you can take it to the course?
[/quote]

you got it, like so many other things in this game its a learned thing, the great thing about it is that once you learn it you have it.
[/quote]

This is a great thread for players at all levels.

[quote name='ihatebogies' timestamp='1295041102' post='2897129']
I was at the practice tee and was purposely trying to draw the ball by really concentrating on getting my hands to release through the ball. Every once in a while the ball really had a great baby draw ball flight and the contact felt very pure. Most times though I was hitting low left quackers. [b]Is there a conscious effort on your part to get the hands through and the club to turn over [/b]for you guys that hit pure shots or is it just the result of a good swing that produces a good ball flight without any real thought of turning the club over?
[/quote]

If you're [b]hitter yes[/b] but if you're a [b]swinger no[/b].

I like what fresh prince and monte have said.

I think for good players the release happens without thought it is a result of a good motion. Sometimes overdone by the better player. I think for the Higher handicap over the years of learning certain things i.e. casting , poor pivot, open clubface etc. etc. that even as they start to learn proper swing mechanics they may still need to learn how to "twist" "roll" "turn" the clubface to a square position. Due to the fact that in their golfing career they have likely learned a reverse turning of the clubface.(of some sort)

If you look at most good players almost all have a "power line release" position from waist high downswing to waist high through swing.

'realease' will depend very much on pivot, horizontal swingplane en desired balflight


The fact that all these high-cappers are trying to 'roll their arms' and still slice the hell out of it has very much to do with the fact that your average Joe-pro hasn't got the foggiest ..

Now I would like to think that the pro's that show up on this board do not qualify in that category and are of the learning and sharing kind.

back OT: @ihatebogies

if you say 'purposely trying to draw it' do you mean

- make it curve left?
- make it start right and curve it left by changing body-alignments?
- make it start right and curve left by changing path and face to a pushdraw alignment?

[quote name='MacBooky' timestamp='1295088434' post='2898129']
'realease' will depend very much on pivot, horizontal swingplane en desired balflight


The fact that all these high-cappers are trying to 'roll their arms' and still slice the hell out of it has very much to do with the fact that your average Joe-pro hasn't got the foggiest ..

Now I would like to think that the pro's that show up on this board do not qualify in that category and are of the learning and sharing kind.

back OT: @ihatebogies

if you say 'purposely trying to draw it' do you mean

- make it curve left?
- make it start right and curve it left by changing body-alignments?
- make it start right and curve left by changing path and face to a pushdraw alignment?
[/quote]

To be honest I'm not sure how to answer your questions. I've been working on several things mentioned by others here in this thread while on the practice tee. The baby draws I've mentioned "may" be the result of a better overall swing that occurs once in a while. I'm really looking for a more solid contact with the ball and if a slight draw or straght shot is the result I'm a happy camper because my misses before I started tinkering with this were weak right where I cut across the ball with a slightly open clubface.

The 9 to 3 or 3 to 9 drill should really help. Someone mentioned taking all the tension out of the swing and I know I have a bad habit of tensing up and trying to hit the ball rather than letting the ball get in the way of a good and very relaxed swing.

To the poster above, I can hit a draw or a fade on purpose by changing my setup and clubface address but again what I'm after is being more consistent in hitting "pure" shots. The times I've consciously tried to release my hands I have hit some shots that looked and felt like what I'm after but trying to manipulate the club in this manner is "hit or miss". It's very difficult to purposedly time it. Hope this makes sense.

Jim

Any time you are learning a new skill, there will be a period where conscious thought will be helpful, if not necessary. Teachers like Henry Cotton, David Blair, and a lot of the TGM guys like Ben Doyle emphasize developing educated hands. When learning the release, it may be helpful initially to use conscious thought to create the motion. However, once the movement starts to be ingrained, the focus should shift very quickly to one of being aware of how closely the movement matches what the intention is. You get to the point where you repeat the movement using your full attention and letting the changes needed happen through the training of the subconscious.

Here is an excellent web site that discusses how to perform a 32-ball drill to learn new skills until they become habits.

[url="http://clearkeygolf.com/32Ball.htm"]http://clearkeygolf.com/32Ball.htm[/url]

I like to make practice swings back and through without stopping using the Swingyde. If I am swinging and releasing the club correctly, the Swingyde comes to rest on my left forearm as I swing back, and then after the club releases in the downswing. If I swing incorrectly, the Swingyde misses my forearm after the release.

Mac,

Question for you.
Assuming when a student develops a better pivot and swing plane. Does that student still need some training on the arms ,hands and clubface due to all the years of learning how to reverse roll the club face?

Because your average Joe-pro instructor over the years has also taught how to swing more horizontal while golfers still hit the ball WAY right.

[quote name='GetmeouttaJersey' timestamp='1295062835' post='2897810']
In my opinion, if you have 0 tension, you're swing will naturally release your hands/arms through the shot and into the finish.
[/quote]


+1

If you have a properly timed swing with no tension the release happens naturally. As you pull the club down into the slot, the lag that is created is released due to centrifugal force (as long as there is no tension present).

To me this whole thing sounds like poor information. The clubface does not have to be closing in order to impart draw spin. In your attempt to do so it sounds like you are getting a clubface that has no loft and is pointed too far left. The clubface needs to be open to your target to hit a push draw.

I learned a push draw as a path to the right of target and a clubface closed to the path...Maybe I'm just old school? I also learned it as one of the most difficult flights to achieve -- start the ball right and curve it left. But, there's somebody out there who feels this is easier to produce. Everybody's different.

[quote name='cbrian' timestamp='1295155317' post='2900007']
To me this whole thing sounds like poor information. The clubface does not have to be closing in order to impart draw spin. In your attempt to do so it sounds like you are getting a clubface that has no loft and is pointed too far left. The clubface needs to be open to your target to hit a push draw.
[/quote]

[quote name='golfsavvy' timestamp='1295156038' post='2900037']
I learned a push draw as a path to the right of target and a clubface closed to the path...Maybe I'm just old school? I also learned it as one of the most difficult flights to achieve -- start the ball right and curve it left. But, there's somebody out there who feels this is easier to produce. Everybody's different.

[quote name='cbrian' timestamp='1295155317' post='2900007']
To me this whole thing sounds like poor information. The clubface does not have to be closing in order to impart draw spin. In your attempt to do so it sounds like you are getting a clubface that has no loft and is pointed too far left. The clubface needs to be open to your target to hit a push draw.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Well yea, clubface is closed to path.... otherwise it wouldn't be a draw. However, its important for people to understand that to be able to work the ball into the target the clubface needs to be open to the target.

Ok. Working into [u]target[/u] being operative phrase... I just need to adjust my bifocals sometimes (thank God I don't need those yet!).

[quote name='cbrian' timestamp='1295156520' post='2900066']
[quote name='golfsavvy' timestamp='1295156038' post='2900037']
I learned a push draw as a path to the right of target and a clubface closed to the path...Maybe I'm just old school? I also learned it as one of the most difficult flights to achieve -- start the ball right and curve it left. But, there's somebody out there who feels this is easier to produce. Everybody's different.

[quote name='cbrian' timestamp='1295155317' post='2900007']
To me this whole thing sounds like poor information. The clubface does not have to be closing in order to impart draw spin. In your attempt to do so it sounds like you are getting a clubface that has no loft and is pointed too far left. The clubface needs to be open to your target to hit a push draw.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Well yea, clubface is closed to path.... otherwise it wouldn't be a draw. However, its important for people to understand that to be able to work the ball into the target the clubface needs to be open to the target.
[/quote]

You definitely don't have to release the club to hit a draw. Body rotation, weight forward, forward shaft lean...far more important than "releasing" your hands.

Check out Charley Hoffman's swing, he hits a draw without releasing his hands.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QKq-JSWUmc

OK, I'm not picking on the OP here but what in the world does releasing the hands or releasing the clubhead even mean? That is one of the problems with golf instruciton, there is not standardized language and definition of terms. Do you really release the clubhead or hands? This is where I see the beauty in TGM, everything is defined and organized so that everyone is on the same page. Release could mean something different to everyone who is posting in this thread. (end rant). Yes, I realize that I didn't contribute anything to this thread or to the OP's point. But others have nailed it by saying that you must educate your hands. But the question is... do you know how to educate your hands?

[quote name='JDUB81' timestamp='1295166341' post='2900231']
OK, I'm not picking on the OP here but [b]what in the world does releasing the hands or releasing the clubhead even mean?[/b] That is one of the problems with golf instruciton, there is not standardized language and definition of terms. Do you really release the clubhead or hands? This is where I see the beauty in TGM, everything is defined and organized so that everyone is on the same page. Release could mean something different to everyone who is posting in this thread. (end rant). Yes, I realize that I didn't contribute anything to this thread or to the OP's point. [b]But others have nailed it by saying that you must educate your hands. But the question is... do you know how to educate your hands?[/b]
[/quote]
Totally agree. I assumed the OP meant that he was trying to roll his wrists or forearms over through impact in an effort to have the clubface open and close more rapidly rather then keeping it square to the path throughout the swing. I know in the past that's what I "thought" you were supposed to do to hit a draw but now I know better. The method the OP seems to be referring too is the old school way thinking for hitting a draw. It relies on way too much timing and the results are usually too hit and miss.

Once you understand the new ball flight laws, hitting any kind of "shaped" shot is easy. But you do have to know how to educate your hands to accomplish that. I struggled with that for many years but since learning what the hands really do and how the physics of the swing works, my game has improved by leaps and bounds.

[quote name='caryk' timestamp='1295191351' post='2900554']
[quote name='JDUB81' timestamp='1295166341' post='2900231']
OK, I'm not picking on the OP here but [b]what in the world does releasing the hands or releasing the clubhead even mean?[/b] That is one of the problems with golf instruciton, there is not standardized language and definition of terms. Do you really release the clubhead or hands? This is where I see the beauty in TGM, everything is defined and organized so that everyone is on the same page. Release could mean something different to everyone who is posting in this thread. (end rant). Yes, I realize that I didn't contribute anything to this thread or to the OP's point. [b]But others have nailed it by saying that you must educate your hands. But the question is... do you know how to educate your hands?[/b]
[/quote]
Totally agree. I assumed the OP meant that he was trying to roll his wrists or forearms over through impact in an effort to have the clubface open and close more rapidly rather then keeping it square to the path throughout the swing. I know in the past that's what I "thought" you were supposed to do to hit a draw but now I know better. The method the OP seems to be referring too is the old school way thinking for hitting a draw. It relies on way too much timing and the results are usually too hit and miss.

Once you understand the new ball flight laws, hitting any kind of "shaped" shot is easy. But you do have to know how to educate your hands to accomplish that. I struggled with that for many years but since learning what the hands really do and how the physics of the swing works, my game has improved by leaps and bounds.


[/quote]

Well I wouldn't go as far as to say that shaping ANY shot you want is "easy". While we now know the correct ball flight laws, it still is very difficult to execute the shot.

It is, however, easy to understand what causes what, in terms of the flight of the ball.

The "release" is definitely an old school thought but regardless, it still occurs for the most part in the everyday swing. The thought of having to release the club to hit a draw is a thing of the past however...

IMHO, this is one of those areas that is a very slippery slope, there are so many factors involved in your question and most of the responses you have received are correct, BUT they all depend on a lot of things. Listening to all this advice is very dangerous, seek professional help or you will be in for a long frustrating struggle, trust me I have been there done that.......book some lessons with a good instructor and you will improve 100X's faster.

[quote name='ihatebogies' timestamp='1295041102' post='2897129']
I was at the practice tee and was purposely trying to draw the ball by really concentrating on getting my hands to release through the ball. Every once in a while the ball really had a great baby draw ball flight and the contact felt very pure. Most times though I was hitting low left quackers. Is there a conscious effort on your part to get the hands through and the club to turn over for you guys that hit pure shots or is it just the result of a good swing that produces a good ball flight without any real thought of turning the club over?
[/quote]

In terms of the replies you'll get I'm afraid it'll be each to their own... so here's mine

I believe that rolling the wrists or trying to 'release' the club is without doubt THE most destructive thing you can do in a golf swing.

I'll try to explain that in the easiest (science free) way. The club swings at approx 100mph and you want to roll the clubface so that it arrives perfectly square at impact... yeh, right.

I try to hit a soft push-draw that starts out to the right and curves back in to the target. In order to do this I have to have the clubface pointing right of the target so the ball starts to the right, if my wrists roll or I 'release' the club in some way then the clubface will roll closed and be pointing left (and be delofted)... which is why you hit your 'low left quackers' as you call them.


The swingpath is what imparts the spin on the ball to make it curve back to the target, so i swing very in-to-out to impart the spin. Rolling/releasing the clubface will not make the ball curve, it'll only start it in a different direction than intended.


Of course, as I said, this is just my opinion and simplest explaination. Hope that helps.