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Releasing the Hands/Clubhead

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  • golfsavvygolfsavvy Golfsavvy Members  1418WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,418
    Joined:  #62
    Sounds good to me. Clear definitions -- witness the Decisions on the Rules for that... Good read tho! This website is a great forum for both agreeing and dissenting opinions. I have to agree with your definition of c**king vs. bending. Your suggestion to 'freeze' the right wrist is an interesting concept and shows that different people will respond to different cues. That's a good one...<br />
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    JDUB81 wrote:
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    golfsavvy wrote:
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    K. Bend, c**k. Doesn't matter to me which you use. Perhaps I wasn't clear. Not necessarily saying that the un-bending or un-c**king of the wrists is a dynamic action vs. a reaction or a product of body and arm movements and lag. They bend or c**k or load and they undo whatever you want to call it on the forward move as a result of all of these forces and not necessarily as a result of muscles in the forearms and wrists that cause it to happen. At some point the clubhead catches up to and passes the hands. Just thought the wrists have to bend to c**k, but interpretation may take bending into different directions from c**king. I can still bend my left wrist while keeping the back of it flat, though I do see where your interpretation makes them do different things (actually I'd say under your definition, if one c**ks, then the other bends...)<br />
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    Semantics and word use, as well as trying to take a dynamic movement and reduce it to static words. I still don't find the term 'release' to be nebulous. But others will. <br />
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    JDUB81 wrote:
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    golfsavvy wrote:
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    I'm not finding the 'release' term to be nebulous... Aren't we simply talking about how the wrists bend and load power, and unbend to impart power (use whatever terms you want there) as the body and arms rotate? I mean, if you create power by creating lag and then you release that lag I take that to mean that the wrists are bent and then they unbend. As the wrists and arms rotate it is possible to apply further rotational power, but what most of you guys are saying is that this won't work and that lack of tension is what releases the lag. Sure, that's one way to release the lag. After watching golf swings for almost 50 years (started playing in 1961), reading articles for 40, and studying it for 30, I've found support for almost any theory. <br />
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    The basic schools of thought are to create lag, for which I haven't seen any dissention, then either applying (trying to enhance?) the built up lag-power or allowing it to 'release' or transfer to the clubhead. Some people advocate an aggressive rotation of the arms and wrists, like young Justin Leonard (where DID he get that finish?), some people are inclined to enhance this release by extending toward the target after impact (that's not me...), and some people are more inclined to let it release into the ball while not being too concerned with what happens afterward. And I'm sure there are more theories.<br />
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    It's interesting that by creating lag and aggressively abbreviating your finish to hit a punch shot that you can still impart a great deal of force into the ball that drives it aggressively lower through the elements. I've seen support for this as a means of actually increasing stress on the shaft thereby increasing shaft flex thereby increasing 'shaft unflex' (sorry, had to throw in a new term) and, thereby, increasing force on the ball. <br />
    <br />
    But if the consensus is to 'produce' release or unbending of the wrist bend or lag through lack of tension, then there are certainly other positions and factors that will affect direction, such as balance, body rotation, grip position, etc. Just sayin, the more old school I get, the more support I've seen for different views. (Coming from a guy who learned a lot from Manuel de la Torre and the reduced tension school of thought -- though I think I've tested almost everything...)<br />
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    The wrists bend to create a lever and then unbend to increase clubhead force while the body and arms are rotating. Dunno -- doesn't seem complicated.<br />
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    Side note: One key ingredient I've found is that when creating more lag, grip positions may need to be adjusted...<br />
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    No offense, but I STRONGLY disagree with the words in bold. I think/hope you are talking about how the left wirist C**CKS and used the word bend instead of C**CK. IMO, any thought of 'unbending' the wrists is a one way ticket to scores in the100's. My thought would is exactly the opposite: the right wrist bends in the takeaway and the thought is to NEVER lose that bend., you will lose SOME AFTER IMPACT but then it should be bent again at finish and follow through. The popular thought is to keep the left wrist flat which is the same as the right wrist being bent. However, 'freezing' the right wrist bend is a much better thought for some.<br />
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    I hear ya. But I think the biggest problem in golf is that people don't have the right info. or the right understanding of info. High handicaps are not from lack of ability but a lack of understanding. A lot of this is due to semantics and a lack of clear definitions. Anyways.... the right wrist bends, the left wrist c**cks. If you go to address and bend the right wrist straight back, the left wrist is now flat. As the hands go up plane, the left wrist c**cks and the right wrsit remains bent. The straighteining of the right arms can un c*ck the left wrist but the right wrist is still bent upon itself and the left wrist is still flat.<br />
    Posted:
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  • ihatebogiesihatebogies Members  188WRX Points: 0Posts: 188
    Joined:  #63
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    Indeed, thank you kindly!<br />
    <br />
    Jim
    Posted:
  • HappyGolfHappyGolf Members  1304WRX Points: 1Posts: 1,304 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Jan 18, 2011 #64
    golfsavvy wrote:
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    At some point the clubhead catches up to and passes the hands.
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    Does it though?<br />
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    In what way? You might think it does if you view it in a certain way (the normal direction we view swings from)... <br />
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    <br />
    but what if you view it like THIS?.......<br />
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    Rory McIlroy.....<br />
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    rory1.gif<br />
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    Has that club past his left arm yet? Has the left wrist collapsed or the right arm rolled over the top?<br />
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    That club is still basically in the address position, if he put the club straight down on the ground he could swing again! <img src='http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' /><br />
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    How about now?<br />
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    ror2.gif<br />
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    Has the right wrist rolled at all? <br />
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    If it had wouldn't the club should be leaning a lot more to the right in this picture?<br />
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    Bar a few degrees for the weight/pull of the club it still practically hasn't past his left forearm... still (more or less) in the address position.<br />
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    Food for thought <img src='http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' /> <br />
    <br />
    (nb: the red line represents a forearm plane line that the club hasn't crossed!)
    Posted:
  • golfsavvygolfsavvy Golfsavvy Members  1418WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,418
    Joined:  #65
    I didn't suggest rolling of the wrists or right wrist, just said at some point the clubhead passes the hands... These are examples of what I would call 'extenders', probably hitting longer irons. I see Ernie Els being an extender and a wrist/forearm rotater. I don't see Singh as extended as these when he's practicing the headcover drill, which in my opinion promotes release over extension and over rolling or rotation the wrists/forearms. <br />
    <br />
    In your 2nd picture it does appear as if the clubhead has passed the hands, but the angle of the picture is off a bit (face-on at shoulder level would show the arms-to-shaft angle better), whereas in the first it appears to be even with the hands combined with some rotation (clubface is rotated somewhat left of target, but not to the de la Torre toe-up position yet).<br />
    <br />
    Some guys don't release much at all, and the clubhead may not pass the hands -- Duval, Faldo. I remember a shot of Toms about 5 years ago on the cover of Golf Digest (or Golf Mag, don't remember) where at shoulder high the arms-to-clubhead angle was much more pronounced. <br />
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    When you see pros hit a wedge in which they stop their arms prior to reaching their shoulders with the arms-to-shaft angle at 90 degrees or beyond this indicates more of a release than an extension or roll. In addition, without discussing the shot and intent of the pro it's difficult to suggest that every shot is intended to be performed with a model golf swing (think Tiger, who often modifies his swing, actually). Therefore we don't know from a picture what the intended movement was and what the intended ball flight was. <br />
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    In some cases I would suggest that some pros may release their shorter irons and extend more while releasing less on their longer clubs. In any event, released angles are pronounced earlier in shorter clubs than in longer ones. The 9 to 3 drill promotes a release, but I wouldn't necessarily perform that drill using a long iron or driver (though some would). If you performed it with a wedge and a 3 iron, I would suggest that those movements would look different, the wedge producing more significant arm-to-shaft angles and much earlier than the 3-iron.<br />
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    HappyGolf wrote:
    <br />
    golfsavvy wrote:
    <br />
    At some point the clubhead catches up to and passes the hands.
    <br />
    <br />
    Does it though?<br />
    <br />
    In what way? You might think it does if you view it in a certain way (the normal direction we view swings from)... <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    but what if you view it like THIS?.......<br />
    <br />
    Rory McIlroy.....<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    rory1.gif<br />
    <br />
    Has that club past his left arm yet? Has the left wrist collapsed or the right arm rolled over the top?<br />
    <br />
    That club is still basically in the address position, if he put the club straight down on the ground he could swing again! <img src='http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' /><br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    How about now?<br />
    <br />
    ror2.gif<br />
    <br />
    Has the right wrist rolled at all? <br />
    <br />
    If it had wouldn't the club should be leaning a lot more to the right in this picture?<br />
    <br />
    Bar a few degrees for the weight/pull of the club it still practically hasn't past his left forearm... still (more or less) in the address position.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Food for thought <img src='http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' /> <br />
    <br />
    (nb: the red line represents a forearm plane line that the club hasn't crossed!)<br />
    Posted:
  • TB07TB07 Members  6110WRX Points: 148Posts: 6,110 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #66
    I think as an instructor you have to take in account who needs what in their swing. <br />
    I.e. If you told many high handicaps to let their arms and hands go with their pivot (assuming they were working on a good pivot) a lot of times they might still reverse roll the club face.<br />
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    So for SOME feeling an active motion of the forearms,hands, and club may actually get them into a neutral position. Where the arms, hands, and club match the body pivot.<br />
    <br />
    While others who are all ready active with the arms, hands, and club may need to FEEL passive with the club.They may need to feel as if the body pivot is controlling the club to get the two to match up into a neutral position.
    Posted:
  • ihatebogiesihatebogies Members  188WRX Points: 0Posts: 188
    Joined:  #67
    Heading out to the course in ten minutes and hoping to bring some new found ball striking success with me. Thanks to all here! <br />
    <br />
    Before I go more "food for thought". I did a Google search "Rory McIroy swing" and one of the many great links was from a UK golf magazine showing and describing Rory's swing sequence. At the very end they talk about Rory's light grip pressure helping him "release" his hands through impact. As I watched videos of his swing on a few of the links, to me there is what I'd say a release of the hands and a rolling of the wrists and forearms. I guess this is what I was trying to convey or ask about should i say in the OP of this thread.
    Posted:
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  • yasu123yasu123 Members  306WRX Points: 0Posts: 306
    Joined:  #68
    mP_au wrote:
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    But can working on a release help hold lag longer?<br />
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    I think it can help you hold the proper amount of lag for your particular swing. <br />
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    The benefit is too not lose the amount of your lag to an early cast, flipping, or anything that would cause you to lose your impact alignment angles.
    Posted:
  • yasu123yasu123 Members  306WRX Points: 0Posts: 306
    Joined:  #69
    <br />
    Thanks for all the great replies, I've been away for a bit and just got back and I have read everything here several times. What is releasing the club, well it depends on what the definition of is is <img src='http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':tongue:' /> . Just kidding. <br />
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    IMO there is a problem with how many people perceive what constitutes a "release".<br />
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    My take on this is the following (just my opinion).<br />
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    The problem for most golfers who lack a forward shaft lean into impact is how to get the club square at impact from the so called delivery position.<br />
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    "Delivery Position"<br />
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    When the hands are over the ball in the downswing and the shaft is still parallel to the ground the average golfer can't figure out how to square the clubface up with out flipping the clubface over (excessive rotation beyond what is considered acceptable). This delivery position is often described and shown to golfers but when a golfer swings at normal swing speeds the results is often a push, push slice, shank etc.<br />
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    Why? Because as said in an earlier post a lot of golfers reverse roll (fan) the clubface somewhere in the backswing or downswing. The excessive open face cannot be squared without a flip, or early cast, or OTT, etc.<br />
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    The solution?<br />
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    The exact thing that Hogan, Jack Nicklaus, Monte Scheinblum, and many others have said in many ways.<br />
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    You can start your release from the top.<br />
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    Start the counterclockwise rotation from the top of the downswing so that when you get to the delivery position you have supinated or at least flattened your left wrist, and the toe of the club is pointing (tilted forward) towards the ground with enough angle that although your hands are over the ball and the shaft is still parallel to the ground, all you have to do is let your body rotation move the hands forward with the shaft leaning forward and the clubface will automatically square up to where you want it relative to the path. Slightly open to the path for fade, square for straight, slightly closed for draw.<br />
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    How much rotation do you need? And how much does the toe have to be tilted forward at the delivery position?<br />
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    Depends on your desired ball flight and your predetermined swing path, and how weak or strong your grip is and how square the clubface is relative to your grip.<br />
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    Once you have trained your hands to rotate the clubshaft properly in the downswing, you can eliminate the rolling of the club in the takeaway, stop manipulating the club to square it (casting, flipping, excessive OTT, etc) and most importantly, hold the 90 degree angle (or at least most of it) really late into impact to create maximum clubhead speed for your particular swing mechanics. <br />
    <br />
    I have been really struggling with this concept but lately I have been hitting the ball with pretty good results.<br />
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    BTW, if you don't agree with this please watch the vid of Tiger (slo motion). Focus on the clubface and you will see the rotation of the shaft counterclockwise from the top and the supination of the left wirst as the shaft approaches parallel to the ground in the downswing.<br />
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    IMO no matter what anyone says, there is rotation of the shaft in any good swing, and this rotation presets the hands/shaft relationship to impact in a position that allows for proper squaring up of the clubface without excessive late rotation, or other compensations (casting, flipping, excessive OTT, etc) to square the face up at impact from the delivery position.
    Posted:
  • cbriancbrian Members  2280WRX Points: 55Posts: 2,280 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Jan 19, 2011 #70
    It just seems like old ball flight logic to keep saying that golfers need to work on squaring up the face. What does it help to be square to a path that is so far left... and is being compounded by the players inability to move their swing bottom forward? At least with an open clubface they have a chance to work back into target.
    Posted:
  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers  19094WRX Points: 1,762Posts: 19,094 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Jan 19, 2011 #71
    cbrian wrote:
    <br />
    It just seems like old ball flight logic to keep saying that golfers need to work on squaring up the face. What does it help to be square to a path that is so far left... and is being compounded by the players inability to move their swing bottom forward? At least with an open clubface they have a chance to work back into target.<br />
    <br />
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    To me, releasing the club is more about swing path than squaring the face. When it becomes natural and automatic, releasing properly squares the club to the path really well.<br />
    <br />
    If you do a proper release from the top, it is really hard to come way over the top or get stuck under the plane.<br />
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    I call it releasing the club out in front of you.<br />
    <br />
    As far as Yasu is concerned, putting my name after Hogan and Nicklaus is like putting Bob Uecker's name after Roy Campenella and Johnny Bench.<img src='http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />
    Posted:
  • yasu123yasu123 Members  306WRX Points: 0Posts: 306
    Joined:  #72
    cbrian wrote:
    <br />
    It just seems like old ball flight logic to keep saying that golfers need to work on squaring up the face. What does it help to be square to a path that is so far left... and is being compounded by the players inability to move their swing bottom forward? At least with an open clubface they have a chance to work back into target.<br />
    <br />
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    Seems like you missed my point. Square by my definition is square to where you want it to be at impact, slightly open to the path for a fade, square to path for straight shot, slightly closed to path for draw. <br />
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    After 10+ years of flipping and casting I could never figure out how to lean the shaft forward and compress the ball.<br />
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    IMO leaning the shaft forward is directly related to clubface control. You can square the clubface and get the forward shaft lean by managing the relationship between the hands and the shaft.<br />
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    Try flipping or casting or whatever else you want to control the clubface, it just doesn't work.<br />
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    A hit to left field with an open face? Sounds like a pull slice to me.<br />
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    Fix the face, then fix the path, isn't that how the saying goes?
    Posted:
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  • yasu123yasu123 Members  306WRX Points: 0Posts: 306
    Joined:  #73
    <br />
    cbrian wrote:
    <br />
    It just seems like old ball flight logic to keep saying that golfers need to work on squaring up the face. What does it help to be square to a path that is so far left... and is being compounded by the players inability to move their swing bottom forward? At least with an open clubface they have a chance to work back into target.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    To me, releasing the club is more about swing path than squaring the face. When it becomes natural and automatic, releasing properly squares the club to the path really well.<br />
    <br />
    If you do a proper release from the top, it is really hard to come way over the top or get stuck under the plane.<br />
    <br />
    I call it releasing the club out in front of you.<br />
    <br />
    As far as Yasu is concerned, putting my name after Hogan and Nicklaus is like putting Bob Uecker's name after Roy Campenella and Johnny Bench.<img src='http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' /><br />
    <br />
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    LOL, good one. But even Uecker did okay with the tv ads....<br />
    <br />
    But I think you have a lot more in common with them then you let on. All good teachers give the students something that can help them. <br />
    <br />
    In regard to swing path, no doubt that it can lead to better management of the release. But if that were really the case for most, why do so many people have problems with squaring the face, even when they get the path right? And even harder is the forward shaft lean into impact. IMO clubface control is the first place for most golfers to start, only because of so many years of doing the wrong things and ingraining some bad habits into the swing. Getting to the proper impact alignments just isn't easy for a great deal of golfers. IMO some people naturally swing the club better than most others. But as with most sports, most people never get really good and use the proper technique as prescribed by the more knowledgeable.<br />
    <br />
    By the way. the weather here has been really cold and overcast so I haven't gotten to vid my swing. Hopefully I will soon and get my vid to you for swing analysis!
    Posted:
  • golfsavvygolfsavvy Golfsavvy Members  1418WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,418
    Joined:  #74
    On the other hand, if the ball doesn't go where the path goes, will they change their path or keep doing it? If changing the path is important and the clubface doesn't match the path, you still need to fix the clubface somehow. In this scenario there are 2 things to fix, the path and the clubface. Do you fix one and then the other, or both at the same time -- probably depends on the player.<br />
    <br />
    cbrian wrote:
    <br />
    It just seems like old ball flight logic to keep saying that golfers need to work on squaring up the face. What does it help to be square to a path that is so far left... and is being compounded by the players inability to move their swing bottom forward? At least with an open clubface they have a chance to work back into target.<br />
    Posted:
  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers  19094WRX Points: 1,762Posts: 19,094 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #75
    yasu123 wrote:
    <br />
    <br />
    cbrian wrote:
    <br />
    It just seems like old ball flight logic to keep saying that golfers need to work on squaring up the face. What does it help to be square to a path that is so far left... and is being compounded by the players inability to move their swing bottom forward? At least with an open clubface they have a chance to work back into target.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    To me, releasing the club is more about swing path than squaring the face. When it becomes natural and automatic, releasing properly squares the club to the path really well.<br />
    <br />
    If you do a proper release from the top, it is really hard to come way over the top or get stuck under the plane.<br />
    <br />
    I call it releasing the club out in front of you.<br />
    <br />
    As far as Yasu is concerned, putting my name after Hogan and Nicklaus is like putting Bob Uecker's name after Roy Campenella and Johnny Bench.<img src='http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' /><br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    LOL, good one. But even Uecker did okay with the tv ads....<br />
    <br />
    But I think you have a lot more in common with them then you let on. All good teachers give the students something that can help them. <br />
    <br />
    In regard to swing path, no doubt that it can lead to better management of the release. But if that were really the case for most, why do so many people have problems with squaring the face, even when they get the path right? And even harder is the forward shaft lean into impact. IMO clubface control is the first place for most golfers to start, only because of so many years of doing the wrong things and ingraining some bad habits into the swing. Getting to the proper impact alignments just isn't easy for a great deal of golfers. IMO some people naturally swing the club better than most others. But as with most sports, most people never get really good and use the proper technique as prescribed by the more knowledgeable.<br />
    <br />
    By the way. the weather here has been really cold and overcast so I haven't gotten to vid my swing. Hopefully I will soon and get my vid to you for swing analysis!<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I don't disagree with anything you said and I appreciate the compliment.<br />
    <br />
    IMO, trying to release properly can immediately fix a terrible swing path and "squaring" of the face gradually works itself out as it becomes a more natural move.
    Posted:
  • cbriancbrian Members  2280WRX Points: 55Posts: 2,280 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Jan 19, 2011 #76
    golfsavvy wrote:
    <br />
    On the other hand, if the ball doesn't go where the path goes, will they change their path or keep doing it? If changing the path is important and the clubface doesn't match the path, you still need to fix the clubface somehow. In this scenario there are 2 things to fix, the path and the clubface. Do you fix one and then the other, or both at the same time -- probably depends on the player.<br />
    <br />
    cbrian wrote:
    <br />
    It just seems like old ball flight logic to keep saying that golfers need to work on squaring up the face. What does it help to be square to a path that is so far left... and is being compounded by the players inability to move their swing bottom forward? At least with an open clubface they have a chance to work back into target.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Yes, but do you know that the face is going to be undesirable once you move the swing bottom forward or make another path fix? I think its extremely safe to say that path is going to be undesirable if you only fix face. <br />
    <br />
    If the average golfer is already coming into impact with a square or closed (to target) clubface, why force them to close it even further? You know you are going to have to fix path, so why not start there?
    Posted:
  • cbriancbrian Members  2280WRX Points: 55Posts: 2,280 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #77
    <br />
    cbrian wrote:
    <br />
    It just seems like old ball flight logic to keep saying that golfers need to work on squaring up the face. What does it help to be square to a path that is so far left... and is being compounded by the players inability to move their swing bottom forward? At least with an open clubface they have a chance to work back into target.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    To me, releasing the club is more about swing path than squaring the face. When it becomes natural and automatic, releasing properly squares the club to the path really well.<br />
    <br />
    If you do a proper release from the top, it is really hard to come way over the top or get stuck under the plane.<br />
    <br />
    I call it releasing the club out in front of you.<br />
    <br />
    As far as Yasu is concerned, putting my name after Hogan and Nicklaus is like putting Bob Uecker's name after Roy Campenella and Johnny Bench.<img src='http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' /><br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I think you have a different definition of the term than most. Not that I'm disagreeing with the point, but I just imagine most people are talking about something else entirely.
    Posted:
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  • yasu123yasu123 Members  306WRX Points: 0Posts: 306
    Joined:  #78
    [/quote]<br />
    <br />
    Yes, but do you know that the face is going to be undesirable once you move the swing bottom forward or another path fix? I think its extremely safe to say that path is going to be undesirable if you only fix face. <br />
    <br />
    If the average golfer is already coming into impact with a square or closed (to target) clubface, why force them to close it even further? You know you are going to have to fix path, so why not start there? <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    [/quote]<br />
    <br />
    I agree with you but I think that fixing the face involves not only where the face is at impact, but the alignment angles caused by the forward shaft lean. Other factors such as ball placement forward or back in the stance and body alignments also have importance, but how many things can you address at once. To me fixing the face is all about the hands, arm, and shaft relationship throughout the swing. Creating a consistant relationship that brings the face back to the ball. Will this fix improper body alignments, or motions, or incorrect sequencing? No, but a repeatable release can make a lot of these other things easier to accomplish, and maybe most important to the average golfer, create a fair amount of power and distance.<br />
    <br />
    And yes, most ave golfers have a closed face to the target line at impact, but not a relatively square face to the swing path. Result? Pull slice. And since they can't control the face well enough to bring the face in without additional manipulation, so a correct swing path will do nothing to tell them that they are on a correct path, especially if the ball continues to slice, or pull hook, or whatever.
    Posted:
  • cbriancbrian Members  2280WRX Points: 55Posts: 2,280 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #79
    Face doesn't change 1:1 with path changes. Meaning, just because the clubface is open to a severely out-in path doesn't mean that the face is going to be open to a more neutral in-out path. However, even if that were true, I think even the most novice golfer can tell the difference between a push slice and a pull slice.
    Posted:
  • yasu123yasu123 Members  306WRX Points: 0Posts: 306
    Joined:  edited Jan 19, 2011 #80
    No doubt.<br />
    But look at the most common pattern for high handicappers.<br />
    <br />
    First a push slice.<br />
    <br />
    Then a pull hook.<br />
    <br />
    Then a block right.<br />
    <br />
    Then a weak pop up left.<br />
    <br />
    And so on and so on.<br />
    <br />
    Why? Because they have no idea what they are doing to create each shot so they focus on everything under the sun to fix the problems, including path.<br />
    <br />
    There may not be a 1:1 ratio when moving the swing path around, but they sure as heck don't know how to get that 1:1 ratio or they would be able to self correct their swing faults.<br />
    <br />
    Go to the range and talk to the golfers after each shot, I would venture to guess that the answers as to why they push sliced or pulled sliced would be all over the board.<br />
    <br />
    Path is meaningless to most high handicappers. And in the cases where they are trying to get more distance guess what the most common result is?<br />
    <br />
    Yep, ingraining even more bad habits.....
    Posted:
  • Calamity ToddCalamity Todd Members  334WRX Points: 77Posts: 334 Greens
    Joined:  edited Jan 19, 2011 #81
    watch iteach's hands at the top. Dan has a slight roll closing the club to start the downswing IMO....earlier than Tiger appears to in his downswing.<br />
    <br />
    [media]
    Posted:
    Callaway Epic Sub Zero 10.5* w/ Tensei  - Callaway GBB 5W lofted down to 4W  - Callaway Rogue 7W - Srixon Z U85 4i - PING i210 5-GW - Titleist SM6 54 - Ping Tour W 60 - Odyssey White Hot Tour 2-Ball Tour Filled 35" - Bridgestone BX
  • Calamity ToddCalamity Todd Members  334WRX Points: 77Posts: 334 Greens
    Joined:  edited Jan 19, 2011 #82
    Here is another of his videos showing a bit of clockwise squaring at the top. He then rotates through beautifully to the ball. Great swing! Watch the slo mo swing @ 1:08.<br />
    <br />
    [media]
    Posted:
    Callaway Epic Sub Zero 10.5* w/ Tensei  - Callaway GBB 5W lofted down to 4W  - Callaway Rogue 7W - Srixon Z U85 4i - PING i210 5-GW - Titleist SM6 54 - Ping Tour W 60 - Odyssey White Hot Tour 2-Ball Tour Filled 35" - Bridgestone BX
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  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers  19094WRX Points: 1,762Posts: 19,094 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #83
    cbrian wrote:
    <br />
    <br />
    cbrian wrote:
    <br />
    It just seems like old ball flight logic to keep saying that golfers need to work on squaring up the face. What does it help to be square to a path that is so far left... and is being compounded by the players inability to move their swing bottom forward? At least with an open clubface they have a chance to work back into target.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    To me, releasing the club is more about swing path than squaring the face. When it becomes natural and automatic, releasing properly squares the club to the path really well.<br />
    <br />
    If you do a proper release from the top, it is really hard to come way over the top or get stuck under the plane.<br />
    <br />
    I call it releasing the club out in front of you.<br />
    <br />
    As far as Yasu is concerned, putting my name after Hogan and Nicklaus is like putting Bob Uecker's name after Roy Campenella and Johnny Bench.<img src='http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' /><br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I think you have a different definition of the term than most. Not that I'm disagreeing with the point, but I just imagine most people are talking about something else entirely.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Let me rephrase. I think releasing the club properly helps swing path more quickly and face angle takes more time.
    Posted:
  • golfsavvygolfsavvy Golfsavvy Members  1418WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,418
    Joined:  #84
    Well said...<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    cbrian wrote:
    <br />
    <br />
    cbrian wrote:
    <br />
    It just seems like old ball flight logic to keep saying that golfers need to work on squaring up the face. What does it help to be square to a path that is so far left... and is being compounded by the players inability to move their swing bottom forward? At least with an open clubface they have a chance to work back into target.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    To me, releasing the club is more about swing path than squaring the face. When it becomes natural and automatic, releasing properly squares the club to the path really well.<br />
    <br />
    If you do a proper release from the top, it is really hard to come way over the top or get stuck under the plane.<br />
    <br />
    I call it releasing the club out in front of you.<br />
    <br />
    As far as Yasu is concerned, putting my name after Hogan and Nicklaus is like putting Bob Uecker's name after Roy Campenella and Johnny Bench.<img src='http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' /><br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I think you have a different definition of the term than most. Not that I'm disagreeing with the point, but I just imagine most people are talking about something else entirely.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Let me rephrase. I think releasing the club properly helps swing path more quickly and face angle takes more time.<br />
    Posted:
  • TB07TB07 Members  6110WRX Points: 148Posts: 6,110 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Jan 19, 2011 #85
    cbrian wrote:
    <br />
    Face doesn't change 1:1 with path changes. Meaning, just because the clubface is open to a severely out-in path doesn't mean that the face is going to be open to a more neutral in-out path. <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Likely If the AVERAGE golfer had an open face out to in swing and you only make their path neutral they will get a big old push slice. Now here comes the repeat cycle of them swinging outside in (again) to try and keep it in play on the course.ESPECIALLY if they have a tendency to reverse roll the clubface.
    Posted:
  • cbriancbrian Members  2280WRX Points: 55Posts: 2,280 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Jan 19, 2011 #86
    <br />
    Let me rephrase. I think releasing the club properly helps swing path more quickly and face angle takes more time.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Well then what is your definition of release? It sounds nothing like what the majority of teaching professionals have used over the years.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    yasu123 wrote:
    <br />
    Why? Because they have no idea what they are doing to create each shot so they focus on everything under the sun to fix the problems, including path.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    As an instructor I kind of think thats part of my job. Educating the player is just as important as fixing the current problem.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Likely If the AVERAGE golfer had an open face out to in swing and you only make their path neutral they will get a big old push slice. Now here comes the repeat cycle of them swinging outside in (again) to try and keep it in play on the course.ESPECIALLY if they have a tendency to reverse roll the clubface.<br />
    <br />
    Thats not what I have seen, but I'll leave it there as I don't really want to start this conversation all over again.
    Posted:
  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers  19094WRX Points: 1,762Posts: 19,094 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #87
    cbrian wrote:
    <br />
    <br />
    Let me rephrase. I think releasing the club properly helps swing path more quickly and face angle takes more time.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Well then what is your definition of release? It sounds nothing like what the majority of teaching professionals have used over the years.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    yasu123 wrote:
    <br />
    Why? Because they have no idea what they are doing to create each shot so they focus on everything under the sun to fix the problems, including path.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    It's exactly the same as everyone else. When the rotation of the right forearm crosses over the left past impact.<br />
    <br />
    What I am saying is people don't know what it feels like, they don't start the process of releasing soon enough, their hands do something funky and a proper release never happens.<br />
    <br />
    If you start a proper release process (which is natural if you haven't done anything to prevent it) from the top of the downswing, it prevents the hands from coming over the top or rerouting too far underneath.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    As an instructor I kind of think thats part of my job. Educating the player is just as important as fixing the current problem.<br />
    <br />
    [size="2"]
    <br />
    Likely If the AVERAGE golfer had an open face out to in swing and you only make their path neutral they will get a big old push slice. Now here comes the repeat cycle of them swinging outside in (again) to try and keep it in play on the course.ESPECIALLY if they have a tendency to reverse roll the clubface.<br />
    <br />
    Thats not what I have seen, but I'll leave it there as I don't really want to start this conversation all over again.[/size]<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    It's exactly the same as everyone else. When the rotation of the right forearm crosses over the left past impact.<br />
    <br />
    What I am saying is people don't know what it feels like, they don't start the process of releasing soon enough, their hands do something funky and a proper release never happens.<br />
    <br />
    If you start a proper release process (which is natural if you haven't done anything to prevent it) from the top of the downswing, it prevents the hands from coming over the top or rerouting too far underneath.
    Posted:
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  • TB07TB07 Members  6110WRX Points: 148Posts: 6,110 Titanium Tees
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    To a certain extent I am agreeing with monte.
    Posted:
  • cbriancbrian Members  2280WRX Points: 55Posts: 2,280 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #89
    So if the definition of release is the right arm crossing over the left due to rotation, you are saying that you want people get the right arm crossing over sooner?
    Posted:
  • TB07TB07 Members  6110WRX Points: 148Posts: 6,110 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #90
    A lot of debate and confusion arises from certain definitions of "release". I think A good way to think of it is "club face control" and the release to me is turning the "club face". That might mean different things for different people (at least how I see it.) A release for a hooker versus a reverse roll slicer may be different. However IMO the Average guy needs some turning of the club face. That could mean backswing, early downswing, late downswing, just depends on that person. Generally it is EARLY.
    Posted:
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  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers  19094WRX Points: 1,762Posts: 19,094 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #91
    cbrian wrote:
    <br />
    So if the definition of release is the right arm crossing over the left due to rotation, you are saying that you want people get the right arm crossing over sooner?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    If the proper motion that leads to a release starts from the top of the swing and the body is rotating in sync, the forces will counteract and the release will happen exactly where it is supposed to for that individual.
    Posted:
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