Does more offset equal a higher chance to hook

I have a slight draw on my ball on my normal shot. I usually shoot some where in between 84 and 94 mostly on the lower side of those numbers, mainly because of my putting( BAD, real bad). I am trying to purchase a new set of irons and I fit in the game improvement category. I have been hitting a bunch of irons and it seems to me that the more offset on the club I hit the more likely the chance I have to duck hook or draw. The less offset, the more likely it hit is straight or might even get a little fade if I try.

Is there any relationship between more offset and the likely hood to hook?

Offset tends to lead to a higher likelihood of closing the face at address which can lead to a hook. People tend to line the toe and the hosel up instead of the face being square. I play a very offset club and don't have any issues, although I will admit that "square" looks open to me at address, but I'm used to it. The real purpose of offset is to move the COG back and lower to hit the ball higher.

Every offset club I've hit seem to be easier to get in the air, which in turn eventually makes me draw them because I have to get more weight forward to bring the ball down.

I hook the ball and thought I would pass on some information from Tom Wishon that my pro directed me to. For a person that draws the ball, a club with a lot of offset can cause draws to turn into hooks.

[indent]“Offset is a design condition in clubheads in which the neck or hosel of the head is positioned in front of the face of the clubhead, so that the clubface appears to be set back a little from the neck of the club. (Put another way, offset is the distance that the forward side of the neck/hosel of the clubhead is set in front of the bottom of the face of the clubhead.)

When a wood or ironhead is designed to have more offset, two game improvement factors automatically occur, each of which can help the golfer. First, the more offset, the farther the head's center of gravity is back from the shaft. And the farther the CG is back from the shaft, the higher the trajectory will be for any given loft on the face. In this case, more offset can help increase the height of the shot for golfers who have a difficult time getting the ball well up in the air to fly.

Second, the more offset in the clubhead, the more time the golfer has on the downswing to rotate the face of the clubhead back around in order to arrive at impact closer to being square to the target line. In other words, offset can help a golfer come closer to squaring the face at impact because the clubface arrives at impact a split-second later than with a club that has no offset. Thus the second benefit of offset is to help reduce the amount the golfer may slice or fade the ball.

About the Author. Tom Wishon is one of the most highly respected members of the golf equipment industry. He specializes in clubhead design, shaft analysis, and clubfitting research and development, and is the owner of his own golf equipment company, Tom Wishon Golf Technology. Tom is a member of the Golf Digest Technical Panel, and is the Technical Advisor to PGA.com, the website of the PGA of America.”[/indent]

Hope this helps

I would quibble only with the wording - I think it makes it easier to turn the ball over for those that struggle to do so, but a swing that produces a hook as a miss would do so with either a zero offset or huge offset iron. In other words, offset won't turn a straight shot into a hook, you know? At least that's been my experience. More offset also = harder to hit a cut or fade, in my experience.

Yes, more offset will greater your chance with a hook.

I don't believe offset causes hooks. It's counter intuitive, but think about it. The face on a NON offset club actually closes faster once you go through the ball. An OFFSET club the face is lagging behind one that doesn't have offset and would actually close a split second later than a non-offset club. In my experience, it is easier to draw a non-offset club (i.e. unintentional working of the ball)

Thanks for all the help.
Especially crazygolfnut.

That is what I was thinking but, didn't really have any facts or proper knowledge to validate my thought.

Question?
How do I find a club that has forgiveness and not a lot of offset?

I get the ball up high without a problem. Sometimes way to high. So that is not a problem. Should I look at "players clubs" like r9 tp or more like I15 with medium offset?

[quote name='andrewtate' timestamp='1297294648' post='2964135']
Yes, more offset will greater your chance with a hook.
[/quote]

I disagree, there have been quotes on here from people who design clubs for a living and they dont necessiarly agree with you, there is no physical reason , all else being equal, adding offset to a club will make it hook, where did you get your info?

[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1297320971' post='2965291']
[quote name='andrewtate' timestamp='1297294648' post='2964135']
Yes, more offset will greater your chance with a hook.
[/quote]

I disagree, there have been quotes on here from people who design clubs for a living and they dont necessiarly agree with you, there is no physical reason , all else being equal, adding offset to a club will make it hook, where did you get your info?
[/quote]

I am curious, how offset applies to the new ballflight laws. Wouldn't offset just promote a higher ball flight and one that is more likely to start left of target (right hand players) Jim Furyk, Rich Beem a lot of Champions Tour players like offset in their wedges and they don't hit hooks.

offset does not cause hooks.

Here here-lots of other stuff does, but offset's influence, if any, is minimal. I hit the same draw shot with an four of my irons sets, from no offset old-school blades (Titleist Tour Models) to modern GI w/ some offset (MX-200). Can hit a fade with both too.
[quote name='minhjn' timestamp='1297325461' post='2965349']
offset does not cause hooks.
[/quote]

Getting a little tense.

Ok, since there is no clear cut answer to this and people are disagreeing on the hook factor of offset, everyone does seem to agree with the fact that offset will cause a higher ball flight. Correct?

With that being the case, I hit a high ball with Dynamic Gold S300 shafts which is a lower launch shaft in an offset club. Would going to a player's cavity give me a better ball flight(not as high, r9tp, s56) than a game improvement (i15, r9) iron?

[quote name='highergr0und' timestamp='1297289430' post='2963887']
Offset tends to lead to a higher likelihood of closing the face at address which can lead to a hook. [b]People tend to line the toe and the hosel up instead of the face being square.[/b] I play a very offset club and don't have any issues, although I will admit that "square" looks open to me at address, but I'm used to it. The real purpose of offset is to move the COG back and lower to hit the ball higher.
[/quote]

I agree that if offset causes hooks, highergr0und's answer above is the reason. I think the whole "more time to close the face" argument is pure baloney, since you still line up the face right behind the ball at address. (Now if you had, say, 1/4" of offset on the club and you lined up the edge of the club 1/4" behind the ball at address, that might be a different story.)

[quote name='msd71' timestamp='1297349412' post='2965633']
[quote name='highergr0und' timestamp='1297289430' post='2963887']
Offset tends to lead to a higher likelihood of closing the face at address which can lead to a hook. [b]People tend to line the toe and the hosel up instead of the face being square.[/b] I play a very offset club and don't have any issues, although I will admit that "square" looks open to me at address, but I'm used to it. The real purpose of offset is to move the COG back and lower to hit the ball higher.
[/quote]

I agree that if offset causes hooks, highergr0und's answer above is the reason. I think the whole "more time to close the face" argument is pure baloney, since you still line up the face right behind the ball at address. (Now if you had, say, 1/4" of offset on the club and you lined up the edge of the club 1/4" behind the ball at address, that might be a different story.)
[/quote]

Got to put the double agree on this answer. The purpose is to get the ball off the ground for the high capper. The other hook effect is minimal at best.

Freeze a golfer with a non-offset club at the precise moment of impact. Slip the club from his hands and replace it with an offset club. Where is the club leading edge in relation to the ball?

It's easier to line up the club face for some with a club that has minimal offset. As the offset increases, the probability of setting up with the face slightly closed increases. This can cause pulls, pull hooks.

Offset in itself does not cause hooks. Swings do.

[quote name='smoky25' timestamp='1297375379' post='2966699']
Freeze a golfer with a non-offset club at the precise moment of impact. Slip the club from his hands and replace it with an offset club. Where is the club leading edge in relation to the ball?
[/quote]

This isn't relevant. You're assuming that someone setting up to the ball with an offset club is keep their [u]hands[/u] in the same position relative to the ball (plus you can still do this and just change loft, but I'll get to that).

OK, you have two clubs, one with no offset and one with a 1/4" of offset. So let's say that you set up with the zero offset club and place the head 1/4" behind the ball normally. Now, don't move and let somebody place the offset club in your hands. Assuming everything has stayed the same, the offset club should be sitting behind the ball 1/2". So, in this case, technically you'd increase pull/draw bias, but how many people actually set up like this? Most will either increase their forward press and setup with the club head in the same spot they normally do, or (this is the most likely option) keep their hands AND the club head in the same spot. When this happens, bounce and loft both increase, no more than a degree or two depending on how much offset is built into the club. Hope that wasn't too confusing...

Anyway, the previous posters are absolutely right, most of the perceived draw bias of offset comes from incorrect alignment with an offset club.

[quote name='jmittens24' timestamp='1297377254' post='2966792']
[quote name='smoky25' timestamp='1297375379' post='2966699']
Freeze a golfer with a non-offset club at the precise moment of impact. Slip the club from his hands and replace it with an offset club. Where is the club leading edge in relation to the ball?
[/quote]

This isn't relevant. You're assuming that someone setting up to the ball with an offset club is keep their [u]hands[/u] in the same position relative to the ball (plus you can still do this and just change loft, but I'll get to that).

OK, you have two clubs, one with no offset and one with a 1/4" of offset. So let's say that you set up with the zero offset club and place the head 1/4" behind the ball normally. Now, don't move and let somebody place the offset club in your hands. Assuming everything has stayed the same, the offset club should be sitting behind the ball 1/2". So, in this case, technically you'd increase pull/draw bias, but how many people actually set up like this? Most will either increase their forward press and setup with the club head in the same spot they normally do, or (this is the most likely option) keep their hands AND the club head in the same spot. When this happens, bounce and loft both increase, no more than a degree or two depending on how much offset is built into the club. Hope that wasn't too confusing...

Anyway, the previous posters are absolutely right, most of the perceived draw bias of offset comes from incorrect alignment with an offset club.
[/quote]


Correct.

To compare apples to apples you have to have both set up square at address. That would mean a different "correct" set-up for a club with offset.

For years I have been telling people if you are hooking your offset irons that means the correct address position is not natural to you.

[quote name='south side slugger' timestamp='1297306273' post='2964776']

How do I find a club that has forgiveness and not a lot of offset?

I get the ball up high without a problem. Sometimes way to high. So that is not a problem. Should I look at "players clubs" like r9 tp or more like I15 with medium offset?
[/quote]

I would say moving into a player's club is a fantastic idea for you. I will explain better below.

[quote name='south side slugger' timestamp='1297348374' post='2965597']


With that being the case, I hit a high ball with Dynamic Gold S300 shafts which is a lower launch shaft in an offset club. Would going to a player's cavity give me a better ball flight(not as high, r9tp, s56) than a game improvement (i15, r9) iron?
[/quote]


Your ballflight will be substantially better with a club that isn't super game improvement. Part of what you get with game improvement clubs is the weight is moved lower and further back, giving you the high ballflight. I can say from experience that it is a frustrating move to go from super game improvement clubs to players clubs for the first few trips out, but it is worth it. I recently went from Ping G5's to Titleist 690MB's. Talk about a big difference. They really aren't harder to hit though, and they give you way better control over the ball. You will get punished more on misses, but they will become less frequent as a players' club will teach you the correct way to strike a golf ball. Going to an R9TP or Ping S56 will still give you some forgiveness on misses as well. Go for it, and you won't look back.

I hate to disagree with Wishon, but offset doesn't give you any more time to square the clubface. When you put the clubhead behind the ball, you're taking it back a set amount from there and returning it back to that point. Offset won't magically give you more distance between the top of the backswing to impact no matter how you slice it. You're going from point a to point b and back to point a. Offset can't change the distance from a to b during the swing. Sorry, but physics overrules that.

if offset gives you more time to square the face it also gives you more time to hold it off and hit a fade.

jmittens24, on 10 February 2011 - 05:34 PM, said:

 

smoky25, on 10 February 2011 - 05:02 PM, said:

 

Freeze a golfer with a non-offset club at the precise moment of impact. Slip the club from his hands and replace it with an offset club. Where is the club leading edge in relation to the ball?

 

 

This isn't relevant. You're assuming that someone setting up to the ball with an offset club is keep their hands in the same position relative to the ball (plus you can still do this and just change loft, but I'll get to that).

 

OK, you have two clubs, one with no offset and one with a 1/4" of offset. So let's say that you set up with the zero offset club and place the head 1/4" behind the ball normally. Now, don't move and let somebody place the offset club in your hands. Assuming everything has stayed the same, the offset club should be sitting behind the ball 1/2". So, in this case, technically you'd increase pull/draw bias, but how many people actually set up like this? Most will either increase their forward press and setup with the club head in the same spot they normally do, or (this is the most likely option) keep their hands AND the club head in the same spot. When this happens, bounce and loft both increase, no more than a degree or two depending on how much offset is built into the club. Hope that wasn't too confusing...

 

Anyway, the previous posters are absolutely right, most of the perceived draw bias of offset comes from incorrect alignment with an offset club.

 

 

 

Correct.

 

To compare apples to apples you have to have both set up square at address. That would mean a different "correct" set-up for a club with offset.

 

For years I have been telling people if you are hooking your offset irons that means the correct address position is not natural to you.

0

• 

You don't hit the ball with your set-up. You hit the ball with your swing. I don't believe a 1/4" forward press to compensate for a 1/4" offset will change a player's swing and/or hand position at impact, especially for a high handicapper. They will put their usual swing on the ball no matter where their hands are at address, and as long as their ball position is the same, they will hit the ball later in their swing with an offset club.

[quote name='willard1523' timestamp='1297391359' post='2967426']
if offset gives you more time to square the face it also gives you more time to hold it off and hit a fade.
[/quote]

I won't disagree with your logic, but my experience proves to me that I have a harder time hitting a cut with more offset.

I have found that for a long time, YES. However, I discovered my set up was slightly closed, very easy to do with high offsets, and opened it up a bit so it's sits truly square now, I have no issues. It's very easy to just slightly close the toe with high offsets, make sure the very bottom grove to perpendicular to your ball.

[quote name='RookieBlue7' timestamp='1297385847' post='2967173']
[b]I hate to disagree with Wishon, but offset doesn't give you any more time to square the clubface[/b]. When you put the clubhead behind the ball, you're taking it back a set amount from there and returning it back to that point. Offset won't magically give you more distance between the top of the backswing to impact no matter how you slice it. You're going from point a to point b and back to point a. Offset can't change the distance from a to b during the swing. Sorry, but physics overrules that.
[/quote]


You wouldn't be disagreeing with just Wishon, but Ralph Maltby, Jeff Summitt and Jeff Sheets, as well. Personally, I'm taking their words for it over everyone here. 100+ years of combined experience, and they all have the same thoughts on a subject lends a LOT of credibility in my eyes.

If you took a non-offset head and stacked it against the same model head with offset added to it, there will be a difference. However, this is assumed that every other variable is exactly the same. Same golfer, same swing path, same shaft, everything.

The offset models were created for the Weekend Warrior class of golfer... those guys and gals that just want to have fun. They aren't playing 5 times a week. taking lessons every day. These clubs will absolutely mitigate a slice (as much as their swing path allows... results will vary). As much as they fight a slice, they're also a hook-producer in the "wrong" (for lack of a better word) hands. It's a function of physics... if you're already hitting a baby draw due to your setup, swing and current club's specs, switching to something with more offset will increase you're likelihood for hitting hooks, assuming all other variables remain constant.

There is another thing to consider, which hasn't been discussed: lie angles. Many SGI clubs (be it irons or drivers) have a more upright lie angle than their GI and Player's counterparts. What happens if you play a club that's too upright? You hit a pull. What's the Weekend Warrior's worse shot? A slice. That's why the lie angles are made more upright: it's another means, along with offset hosels and closed face angles, for fighting the rights (for RH golfers). If someone's already a fairly straight hitter, an iron with a more upright angle can cause a shot to go left. Couple that with extra offset and it can get interesting.

[quote name='Justin66' timestamp='1297494541' post='2970362']
[quote name='RookieBlue7' timestamp='1297385847' post='2967173']
[b]I hate to disagree with Wishon, but offset doesn't give you any more time to square the clubface[/b]. When you put the clubhead behind the ball, you're taking it back a set amount from there and returning it back to that point. Offset won't magically give you more distance between the top of the backswing to impact no matter how you slice it. You're going from point a to point b and back to point a. Offset can't change the distance from a to b during the swing. Sorry, but physics overrules that.
[/quote]


You wouldn't be disagreeing with just Wishon, but Ralph Maltby, Jeff Summitt and Jeff Sheets, as well. Personally, I'm taking their words for it over everyone here. 100+ years of combined experience, and they all have the same thoughts on a subject lends a LOT of credibility in my eyes.

If you took a non-offset head and stacked it against the same model head with offset added to it, there will be a difference. However, this is assumed that every other variable is exactly the same. Same golfer, same swing path, same shaft, everything.

The offset models were created for the Weekend Warrior class of golfer... those guys and gals that just want to have fun. They aren't playing 5 times a week. taking lessons every day. These clubs will absolutely mitigate a slice (as much as their swing path allows... results will vary). As much as they fight a slice, they're also a hook-producer in the "wrong" (for lack of a better word) hands. It's a function of physics... if you're already hitting a baby draw due to your setup, swing and current club's specs, switching to something with more offset will increase you're likelihood for hitting hooks, assuming all other variables remain constant.

There is another thing to consider, which hasn't been discussed: lie angles. Many SGI clubs (be it irons or drivers) have a more upright lie angle than their GI and Player's counterparts. What happens if you play a club that's too upright? You hit a pull. What's the Weekend Warrior's worse shot? A slice. That's why the lie angles are made more upright: it's another means, along with offset hosels and closed face angles, for fighting the rights (for RH golfers). If someone's already a fairly straight hitter, an iron with a more upright angle can cause a shot to go left. Couple that with extra offset and it can get interesting.
[/quote]

Where does offset increase the distance from setup to the top of the backswing and back? It doesn't, you're taking it from a set point behind the ball and returning it the same distance.

Hey OP, in the latest edition of GD there is a Q&A with John Jacobs. In that article, he states the one mistake he made was not working on putting more. I don't think offset increases your chance of hooks.

You're assuming their swing changes to "offset" the offset (i.e. their hands are further ahead at impact). I'm not. I believe they put the same swing on the ball no matter what club you put in their hands (offset vs. non-offset). If everything else is the same, particularly ball position, impact will come later with an offset club.

[quote name='smoky25' timestamp='1297516214' post='2970504']
You're assuming their swing changes to "offset" the offset (i.e. their hands are further ahead at impact). I'm not. I believe they put the same swing on the ball no matter what club you put in their hands (offset vs. non-offset). If everything else is the same, particularly ball position, impact will come later with an offset club.
[/quote]

If you set up with the leading edge of the ball immediately behind the club with both irons, which is what people will do, there is no increase in distance of the swing allowing the club more time to close. Impact will come at the same time. If you line the shaft up with the ball, as opposed to the leading edge, then yes, you would allow more time for the face to close before impact, but honestly, who does that?

Take a look at the attached crude picture. Explain to me how the set up on top would cause a hook with the extra offset? How does that give you any additional time to close the face with the same swing? I can see how the set-up on bottom would, but no one aligns the club in such a way. If they do, it is not the club, it is poor set-up that is causing the hook.