What I see in Mr. Hogans swing...

Beautiful! I really enjoyed this video. All I can say is:

Hand path out and over + perfect sweet spot plane= 1 awesome athletic movement

What a remarkable athlete Hogan was.

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1300782282' post='3076915']
[b]I did a quick look from the outside what Mr. Hogan is doing from DSL:[/b] <object width="480" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hlSfITaJWSI?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hlSfITaJWSI?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="390"></object> [b]Some will call it BS, but hopefully we will have some constructive discussion.... Chris[/b]
[/quote]

Hi chris-golf, very interesting information. Looking forward to all future discussions about your video.

Chris...can you do that for a longer club...and also for sam snead

So you say he comes 'over the top' to his body, but still inside the target line. How is that possible if he is standing open? Wouldn't that make him actually over the line? Or is it because he was so inside on the backswing that coming 'over the top' on the downswing is still inside?

Great video!

Dear Chris,

Very nice observation.. Very nice..

Now, lets start. First things first.. how do you think i initiated my backswing? What is the result of your search in another ropic where you are the OP? You might as well discuss also the "inside" of my swing here in addition to what you see in the "outside".

Keep it on.. Keep it on.. Now you are getting somewhere in coming closer to my swing...

Very truthfully yours,


6en


P.S., Edit just for typo errors. This iPad touch keybourd given to me by St. Peter is giving me hell!

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1300846352' post='3079432']
Chris...can you do that for a longer club...and also for sam snead

So you say he comes 'over the top' to his body, but still inside the target line. [b] How is that possible[/b] if he is standing open? Wouldn't that make him actually over the line? Or is it because he was so inside on the backswing that coming 'over the top' on the downswing is still inside?

Great video!
[/quote]

I thought it is clear in the video - it is due to his downloop... the clubhead returns to the same path in the downswing, like
in the backswing, but his handpath is shifting thru his pivot way over the backswing handpath! Without the downloop
he would shift to a higher swingplane or worse to the outside.
Any swingplane higher as turned shoulder plane or on the shoulder plane can´t use this powermove or they are
toast. Sure they will use then vertical drop to accelerate, but this is another story.
There are a view players who return from the turned shoulder plane to the shaftplane, but then you will see in transition
big downloops or heavy scalpula dips with the right shoulder... or pulling and they would need a closed stance to the target.

[quote name='6enh09an' timestamp='1300846651' post='3079451']
Dear Chris,

Very nice observation.. Very nice..

Now, lets start. First things first.. how do you think i initiated my backswing? What is the result of your search in another ropic where you are the OP? You might as well discuss also the "inside" of my swing here in addition to what you see in the "outside".

Keep it on.. Keep it on.. Now you are getting somewhere in coming closer to my swing...

Very truthfully yours,


6en


P.S., Edit just for typo errors. This iPad touch keybourd given to me by St. Peter is giving me hell!
[/quote]

[b]Encantado senior 6en...[/b]

I will come back to you after some more videos...

My point in this topic is more that many teachers and players think that Mr. Hogan had a high maintenence and freakish golfswing even one with a lot of secrets, but the truth is he did very fundamentally sound moves which not differ a great deal from the players of his generation. The only difference I see is his 2nd spine inclination to the ground from setup to the backswing, his downloop with a single shifter handpath and sure his unmatched athletic pivot. I want to show some videos of 3 different players of different school of thoughts who all have some Hoganeque movements in there swings and I take a look how there pivots are working and what handpath and clubheadpath they are using. BTW all 3 are great golfswings... <object width="480" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/QWq18udEVQw?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/QWq18udEVQw?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="390"></object> <object width="480" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/v6i8dSCKaMs?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/v6i8dSCKaMs?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="390"></object> <object width="480" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/jS8WGCTm14M?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/jS8WGCTm14M?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="390"></object>

I love your analysis my friend! Thanks for the clarification on my question.

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1300919354' post='3082034']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1300846352' post='3079432']
Chris...can you do that for a longer club...and also for sam snead

So you say he comes 'over the top' to his body, but still inside the target line. [b] How is that possible[/b] if he is standing open? Wouldn't that make him actually over the line? Or is it because he was so inside on the backswing that coming 'over the top' on the downswing is still inside?

Great video!
[/quote]

I thought it is clear in the video - it is due to his downloop... the clubhead returns to the same path in the downswing, like
in the backswing, but his handpath is shifting thru his pivot way over the backswing handpath! Without the downloop
he would shift to a higher swingplane or worse to the outside.
Any swingplane higher as turned shoulder plane or on the shoulder plane can´t use this powermove or they are
toast. Sure they will use then vertical drop to accelerate, but this is another story.
There are a view players who return from the turned shoulder plane to the shaftplane, but then you will see in transition
big downloops or heavy scalpula dips with the right shoulder... or pulling and they would need a closed stance to the target.
[/quote]

Very interesting topic Chris...I enjoyed your work on the video very much...nice job.

Nice job on the analysis, Chris. Just an FYI about "Spider" (Matt Loving). Geoff does consider him to be the best representation of everything he believes in, however, the video that you used was of him in college when he was around 22 years old. Geoff didn't consider that swing as refined as the one he had in his late 20's. Unfortunately, Geoff hasn't posted any pure DTL video of Spider's best swings of that era, when he won the Texas State Open in 2007. He has more recently posted other views on youtube which he considers to be the very best of Matt (the one's where he's wearing khaki pants and green shirt).

RIP Spider.

[b]Thank you all for the kind words... I am learning thru doing the videos a lot! I am all ears if Geoff Jones, Martin Ayers or Dan Carraher are speaking or writing there wisdom! I am the biggest fan of these teachers... One more short view of the 1953 footage of Mr. Hogan DSL (TSP or EEP?): [/b] [b]I knew that 2D video has illusions, but still pictures are even worse... it looks like he is swinging on the TSP in still picture - but if I take a closer look on video it is an illusion...[/b]<object width="480" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/LbyebXxKbQE?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/LbyebXxKbQE?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="390"></object>

What causes or why does the low to higher handpath with clubhead in same path happens? What does he do? Hands? Lower body? Upper body? What? Why?

[quote name='6enh09an' timestamp='1301011334' post='3085577']
What causes or why does the low to higher handpath with clubhead in same path happens? What does he do? Hands? Lower body? Upper body? What? Why?
[/quote]

6en Hogan told us this:
[attachment=751751:BenHoganLifeArticle.jpg]

I have to reread the article - but in short the early bodythrust combined with the cupping of the left wrist shifts the handpath
over the original handpath and at the same time the clubhead moves to the old clubheadpath...
Teachers would say laid off - but this is a bad word for this wonderful move.
Most teachers misinterpreted this move as to open the clubhead more, but the purpose was as above...

Chris

I like all 3 swings too ,Dans shaft falls more out like hogans to me but the hands come in higher ,In ur video hogan shaft was a little more vertical or inside the ball line going back but never appeared flat then steep . ...mine moves more like christo where i make a late move to shallow out a steep shaft ... when u refer to the downloop Im assuming the clubhead falls first?

Diz

[quote name='Diz' timestamp='1301092467' post='3088515']
I like all 3 swings too ,Dans shaft falls more out like hogans to me but the hands come in higher ,In ur video hogan shaft was a little more vertical or inside the ball line going back but never appeared flat then steep . ...mine moves more like christo where i make a late move to shallow out a steep shaft ... [b] when u refer to the downloop Im assuming the clubhead falls first? [/b]

Diz


[/quote]

Yes... look at the clubhead tracing - you can see the downloop at transition.
It loop´s back to the backswing plane even the handpath is shifting over...
The longer the club - so more downloop will happen.

I will send you a pm.

Myself I worked a lot agains my natural downloop and I think I just have to use it even more - but then
with the right pieces to it: Here I practice cupping of the left wrist!?.. Hogan afficionados are just crazy pals.
[attachment=754120:ChrisAndMrHoganDSL.jpg]


I also think that Martin Ayers "most powerful move" has a lot to do with what the body and
right arm are doing at transition... and it is very hoganesque... maybe someone has
experience with it?

Chris

cupping the wrist i love it!

Is this to help you hit a push fade Chris?

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1301336183' post='3096477']
cupping the wrist i love it!

Is this to help you hit a push fade Chris?
[/quote]

Yes! But my pull fades or trap draws have still more power!

But the purpose is more to shift the handpath over... (I think)
I love to praktice crazy stuff....
[attachment=754240:ChrisP4.jpg]
[attachment=754241:FiveLessonsGrip.jpg]
Chris

Chris what do you think of the Bertrand guys you tube video on Hogan laying off the club with the video you posted above it appears that when the clubhead is all the way back at the top the whole shaft "falls" back onto his elbow plane as the right wrist cocks.
Almost looks like Bertrand guy is dead on in terms of cupped to releasing the cup while hands drop slightly.

I was trying to simulate that move for fun on the range the other day I find it damn near impossible to coordinate well!!!

What do you think when you watch the shaft fall onto the shallower plane from the top?

Laying the shaft off isn't for everyone.Hogan didn't incorporate that move into his swing by design.He did mention in 5L that the turning of the hips will drop the club onto a shallower plane but my opinion is and some posters are going to disagree,that this is not going to happen for most people.

For every tour pro that lays the club off,fifty are not.I can count the number of tour pros on one hand that lays the club off in the manner of Hogan or Sergio.

If you don't do this move naturally,the pursuit of it is going to ruin you because it is a tough move to do artificially.

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1301454070' post='3101204']
Chris what do you think of the Bertrand guys you tube video on Hogan laying off the club with the video you posted above it appears that when the clubhead is all the way back at the top the whole shaft "falls" back onto his elbow plane as the right wrist cocks.
Almost looks like Bertrand guy is dead on in terms of cupped to releasing the cup while hands drop slightly.

I was trying to simulate that move for fun on the range the other day I find it damn near impossible to coordinate well!!!

What do you think when you watch the shaft fall onto the shallower plane from the top?
[/quote]

I am not a fan of Bertrand, because most parts for him are actions... but for me most parts in Mr. Hogans swing are
reactions! Maybe he is right and can explain it nice, but it is just not my cup of tee.
It would be interesting to see a long time student of him and watch this swing!

I do not believe in the "Harley move" or releasing the cup while hands drop etc....

I think the shaft falls onto the shallower plane, thru his early bodythrust which starts even before he reached
his end of the backswing - so it would be more a reaction than a action....

Chris

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1301467378' post='3101584']
[b]Laying the shaft off isn't for everyone.Hogan didn't incorporate that move into his swing by design.[/b]He did mention in 5L that the turning of the hips will drop the club onto a shallower plane but my opinion is and some posters are going to disagree,that this is not going to happen for most people.

For every tour pro that lays the club off,fifty are not.I can count the number of tour pros on one hand that lays the club off in the manner of Hogan or Sergio.

If you don't do this move naturally,the pursuit of it is going to ruin you because it is a tough move to do artificially.
[/quote]

Yes that is my opinion as well...

But strangewise a lot of realy good ballstrikers do this move! And if you look at the swings from the 50`s they
had all some kind of loop in there swings....

So it is right nobody would teach this move or know how to teach it....

Chris

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1301067224' post='3087204']
[quote name='6enh09an' timestamp='1301011334' post='3085577']
What causes or why does the low to higher handpath with clubhead in same path happens? What does he do? Hands? Lower body? Upper body? What? Why?
[/quote]

6en Hogan told us this:
[attachment=751751:BenHoganLifeArticle.jpg]

I have to reread the article - but in short the early bodythrust combined with the cupping of the left wrist shifts the handpath
over the original handpath and at the same time the clubhead moves to the old clubheadpath...
Teachers would say laid off - but this is a bad word for this wonderful move.
Most teachers misinterpreted this move as to open the clubhead more, but the purpose was as above...

Chris
[/quote]

Thanks. Bodythrust? What do you mean exactly? I mean, howd youo do that?

Sergio's laid off move is 100% different than Hogans. Bertrand is wrong. The Harley move is also wrong. Laying off the club by moving your hands, wrists and arms is not what Hogan did. Agree with Chris_golf 100% in that it's a reaction. It's a reaction because the flex in the shaft is huge during transition which gives it the laid off look.

I love this thread.

Chris, how is your cupped wrist push fade?

[quote name='markponi' timestamp='1301595844' post='3106272'] [b]Sergio's laid off move is 100% different than Hogans[/b]. Bertrand is wrong. The Harley move is also wrong. Laying off the club by moving your hands, wrists and arms is not what Hogan did. Agree with Chris_golf 100% in that it's a reaction. It's a reaction because the flex in the shaft is huge during transition which gives it the laid off look. [/quote] I am not quite sure about this - he comes from a higher plane ( and has to drop down ), but I believe if he would have another backswing plane it would look similar... <object height="390" width="640"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/PTxfRmxNofI?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/PTxfRmxNofI?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="390" width="640"></object> Older video - OMG how I had the hands sooo hight!!! Chris @tembolo : The push fade needs a rest, 1st priority my sport-stick-setup with the hipmovement...

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1301601059' post='3106575']
[quote name='markponi' timestamp='1301595844' post='3106272'] [b]Sergio's laid off move is 100% different than Hogans[/b]. Bertrand is wrong. The Harley move is also wrong. Laying off the club by moving your hands, wrists and arms is not what Hogan did. Agree with Chris_golf 100% in that it's a reaction. It's a reaction because the flex in the shaft is huge during transition which gives it the laid off look. [/quote] I am not quite sure about this - he comes from a higher plane ( and has to drop down ), but I believe if he would have another backswing plane it would look similar... <object height="390" width="640"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/PTxfRmxNofI?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/PTxfRmxNofI?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="390" width="640"></object> Older video - OMG how I had the hands sooo hight!!! Chris @tembolo : The push fade needs a rest, 1st priority my sport-stick-setup with the hipmovement...
[/quote]

The only thing Sergio and Mr Hogan have in common is both are swinging a golf club. The reason Sergio has the higher plane is he's making the club behave differently than Mr Hogan and needs to start higher. That kid that won in the Transitions also downc0cks the club but he's delivering the club between the elbow and turned shoulder plane...again, completely different swings that seem alike.

The reason people struggle with the layoff and downc0ck is because they can't shift to the lower plane without c0cking the trail wrist. If you can crack that nut....you're on your way to developing a playable "hoganesque" swing.

[size="3"]Call me Mr. Obvious, but If you want the shaft to flatten at the top of the swing or the beginning of the DS, it will never happen as long as the left thumb is underneath the shaft, supporting it in a highly leveraged condition.[/size]

[size="3"]Now if the left thumb is on the SIDE of the shaft and the clubhead is heavy enough ... that's a horse of a different color! Certainly this is made easier with a weaker right hand grip.

MH[/size]

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1301601059' post='3106575']
[quote name='markponi' timestamp='1301595844' post='3106272'] [b]Sergio's laid off move is 100% different than Hogans[/b]. Bertrand is wrong. The Harley move is also wrong. Laying off the club by moving your hands, wrists and arms is not what Hogan did. Agree with Chris_golf 100% in that it's a reaction. It's a reaction because the flex in the shaft is huge during transition which gives it the laid off look. [/quote] I am not quite sure about this - he comes from a higher plane ( and has to drop down ), but I believe if he would have another backswing plane it would look similar... <object height="390" width="640"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/PTxfRmxNofI?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/PTxfRmxNofI?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="390" width="640"></object> Older video - OMG how I had the hands sooo hight!!! Chris @tembolo : The push fade needs a rest, 1st priority my sport-stick-setup with the hipmovement...
[/quote]
I agree with markponi that Hogan and Sergio laid the club off in a different way.

Chris,your swing is more like Sergio's than Hogan.You both lay the club off before you reach the top of the backswing.Hogan did this move on the transition.He was not laid off at the top.The dynamics are totally different.Not saying there is anything wrong with how you or Sergio does it but it's not Hogan.

Chris, aside from all that you know and have observed from viewing Hogan's motion, what do you believe is actually what Hogan viewed in is swing motion?