The purpose of the Downloop...

Chris without getting into the reverse loops , down loops etc ...... I get the notion you think hogan slapped it down to hands plane , which you do...... Now you may find some swings with shortish irons , or punch type shots ... But in general , full swings there is no way he slaps it down like a Girl to hands plane........ This all comes down to the usual argument from lots of sides ...re punchers or even pitchy right arm slapping

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1303343709' post='3172062']
[b]Just another video here ... what is the purpose of the downloop... Since I downlooped as well from the beginning and never understood this, I am coming a little closer to understand my own swing now thru Mr. Hogan.[/b] <object height="390" width="480"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/dapQRbbiAvk?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/dapQRbbiAvk?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="390" width="480"></object> [b]If you release on your elbow plane and you are in your backswing on a higher swingplane - then there are different possibilities to come back to your original plane. I believe if you are able to bring your sweetspot as early as possible to your release plane - so more consistent you could play... Even I use a different downloop as Mr. Hogan - the purpose is the same - to bring the sweetspot as early as possible to the release downswing plane. Do I recomend this for everyone - of course not. Hey, my personal most swingwrecker was a laserpointer on the butt end - now I understand why... Straight plane lines? Theoretically sure, but maybe straight sweetspot planes are better... Chris[/b] [b]BTW: Your swing has not to look like Mr. Hogan´s to use his swing mechanics![/b]
[/quote]
The downloop or the lay off move is quite rare and it's almost always a move that a player is born with.I suppose it could be learnt if you knew how to learn it and are prepared to put in thousands of repetitions.

This move basically counteracts the natural tendency for most players to come OTT.Players like yourself and to a lesser extent Hogan probably overdoes it in my opinion.In your case the clubshaft "wobbles" from being very laid off and then steepens rapidly into impact.I believe it's too much of a plane shift particularly on the downswing but if it's a natural move and it's consistent,why change it?

As for your move versus Hogan's,he performed the move with his pivot,whereas you just drop your arms and hands.Like eightiron said,you are slapping it down.Hogan is pivoting it down.You can see quite clearly Hogan's right shoulder is lower and his shoulders are opening up more halfway into the downswing.Your shoulders are more closed in comparison at the same point.You are achieving this flattening move of the club in a different way.In other words,Hogan uses his pivot a lot more.

You also need to be careful not to try and look exactly like Hogan who was 5'8".You are probably closer to 6'3" so it's impossible to copy his swing 100%.

Chris, I really like your analysis... but at 4:00 where you claim hogan shifts his right arm out more, it really appears to be Hogan's left hip moving UP and BACK that creates the left arm separation.

Pause at 4:03 in the video and the difference in separation/expansion becomes clear due to Hogan's early hip turn.

You can tell it's not yet right arm shift at that point, because his elbow is still very close to his right hip.

CHeers,
Drew

Whew.. Glad to know I'm not alone...

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1303349207' post='3172349']
Chris without getting into the reverse loops , down loops etc ...... I get the notion you think hogan slapped it down to hands plane , which you do...... Now you may find some swings with shortish irons , or punch type shots ... But in general , full swings there is no way he slaps it down like a Girl to hands plane........ This all comes down to the usual argument from lots of sides ...re punchers or even pitchy right arm slapping
[/quote]


No need for the negativity.

Chris, nice analysis!

You should do it for Snead as well if you can!

Unfortunately this is yet another sad ending for a misguided effort to swing like Hogan. Disconnected arms, off plane, excess pronation, handsy plane shift ... opposite of Hogan and a poor basis for a good swing in general. ugh

op stands up in the middle of the swing to manipulate the club as he does. you can tell that op doesn't get his (three letter word, that starts with an A) out of of the nearly as well as Mr. Hogan does. and his right arm disconnects from his body and then op has to flip his hands to get the desired effect.

i have swung like op, and its my really bad habit to get into. club is laid off and if you don't have a controlled flip, then it gets stuck behind you. you get the shanks or a lot of push slices with every type shot.

mine came from swinging inside in the winter time. and being over 6 tall, not wanting to hit the ceiling in my house.

YOU can play some pretty good golf with a swing like this. I have shot under par several times,swinging just as the youtube vid is showing. your ball flight is lower and it seems you hit the ball further too. but God help you if your timing is off just a little bit.

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1303384748' post='3173158']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1303349207' post='3172349']
Chris without getting into the reverse loops , down loops etc ...... I get the notion you think hogan slapped it down to hands plane , which you do...... Now you may find some swings with shortish irons , or punch type shots ... But in general , full swings there is no way he slaps it down like a Girl to hands plane........ This all comes down to the usual argument from lots of sides ...re punchers or even pitchy right arm slapping
[/quote]


No need for the negativity.

Chris, nice analysis!

You should do it for Snead as well if you can!
[/quote]


+1 tembolo............... Unfortunately negativity is the order of the day for some here. Acrimony apparently rules the day in the Hogan's Heros Swing Forum.

JD3, Nice addition to the positivity bank................ I'm learning so much about [s]swing [/s] forum dynamics at long last.

Just gives you the warm fuzzies all over doesn't it Chris!!!

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1303384748' post='3173158']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1303349207' post='3172349']
Chris without getting into the reverse loops , down loops etc ...... I get the notion you think hogan slapped it down to hands plane , which you do...... Now you may find some swings with shortish irons , or punch type shots ... But in general , full swings there is no way he slaps it down like a Girl to hands plane........ This all comes down to the usual argument from lots of sides ...re punchers or even pitchy right arm slapping
[/quote]


No need for the negativity.

Chris, nice analysis!

You should do it for Snead as well if you can!
[/quote]

Which bit didn't you understand, Imop it's nothing like what hogan does...... Free world tembola ... I say it's a bunch of not hogan

Just quick one.

I think what we see there is the move he continued all the time during downswing. What makes us to see steepening or flattering or laid off, is mainly about body positions.

He continued that drop and arms triangle rotation all the way and get never stuck because of strong body rotation. Or actually he get stuck but it doesn't matter, because he fired through impact by rotation. The right elbow just went out after the impact.

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1303389372' post='3173245']
[quote name='downtoscratch' timestamp='1303387351' post='3173192']
+1 tembolo............... Unfortunately negativity is the order of the day for some here. Acrimony apparently rules the day in the Hogan's Heros Swing Forum.

JD3, Nice addition to the positivity bank................ I'm learning so much about [s]swing [/s] forum dynamics at long last.

Just gives you the warm fuzzies all over doesn't it Chris!!!
[/quote]
Come on DTS, that's not fair. How is heaping false praise on someone helping them?

Seriously, what do you think a Slicefixer would say to him: "you got it nailed bud" or "son, we have a look of work to do"?
[/quote]

I only know that you didn't spare the list of faults but offered not one bit of balanced commentary as a means of at least supporting your assessments.
Chris was very clear in what he was intent on sharing and made no claims to be another Hogan. He's trying to learn from Hogan and from sharing his
thoughts and trials here. We need more pure critics like we need more national debt. Is that fair JD? dts

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1303388836' post='3173221']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1303384748' post='3173158']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1303349207' post='3172349']
Chris without getting into the reverse loops , down loops etc ...... I get the notion you think hogan slapped it down to hands plane , which you do...... Now you may find some swings with shortish irons , or punch type shots ... But in general , full swings there is no way he slaps it down like a Girl to hands plane........ This all comes down to the usual argument from lots of sides ...re punchers or even pitchy right arm slapping
[/quote]


No need for the negativity.

Chris, nice analysis!

You should do it for Snead as well if you can!
[/quote]

Which bit didn't you understand, Imop it's nothing like what hogan does...... Free world tembola ... I say it's a bunch of not hogan
[/quote]

I got it...I like most of the stuff you say 8i. But chill out...no need to be a salami...especially when a guy is giving just his opinion and insights. Telling him he slaps down at it like a girl isn't cool. Just say nicely you think he's closer to dancing like a ballerina or whatever...but you don't need to be such a sour pickle about it. Know what I mean, jelly bean?

this is the hogans hero forum right ? not the hogan swing forum, you know when us fans drift off about the mystique, the struggle, the car crash, being broke, eating oranges, yada yada,

...lets not forget the caustic tongue, hogan would burn this house down with one quip, lol.

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1303409985' post='3174180']
this is the hogans hero forum right ? not the hogan swing forum, you know when us fans drift off about the mystique, the struggle, the car crash, being broke, eating oranges, yada yada,

...lets not forget the caustic tongue, hogan would burn this house down with one quip, lol.
[/quote]


ya, but still no reason to be a salami and talk negative poop about a dude putting forward a good, honest effort.

@DTS. actually I didnt even get into the way off pivot. Ive been watching and writing thru my iPhone so maybe missed something, but i thought he said he used the same "technique" as Hogan. Well then let's have at it.

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1303420374' post='3174661']
ya, but still no reason to be a salami and talk negative poop about a dude putting forward a good, honest effort.
[/quote]

tell that to hogan, i presume you've read the smakdowns he said about major winners, lol.

chris is a big boy, water off a ducks back, if he wanted a love fest he'd be posting up at dirters. a few people only read 'girl', my guess chris only read 'hands plane'.

how are you setting up your camera chris ? afair w/ mexico short irons, camera looked deep/rear, shots were often draws.

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1303343709' post='3172062']
[b]Just another video here ... what is the purpose of the downloop... Since I downlooped as well from the beginning and never understood this, I am coming a little closer to understand my own swing now thru Mr. Hogan.[/b] <object height="390" width="480"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/dapQRbbiAvk?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/dapQRbbiAvk?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="390" width="480"></object> [b]If you release on your elbow plane and you are in your backswing on a higher swingplane - then there are different possibilities to come back to your original plane. I believe if you are able to bring your sweetspot as early as possible to your release plane - so more consistent you could play... Even I use a different downloop as Mr. Hogan - the purpose is the same - to bring the sweetspot as early as possible to the release downswing plane. Do I recomend this for everyone - of course not. Hey, my personal most swingwrecker was a laserpointer on the butt end - now I understand why... Straight plane lines? Theoretically sure, but maybe straight sweetspot planes are better... Chris[/b] [b]BTW: Your swing has not to look like Mr. Hogan´s to use his swing mechanics![/b]
[/quote]

Chris, do you belive the downloop, as you call it, was intentional or just a reactionary motion of the club head?

OMG, many responses - my point was that Mr. Hogan like most of the players in his decade, shifted very early
to the downswingplane with his sweetspot - others call it [b]EEP[/b] (early elbow plane)...

Sure I do not have Mr. Hogan´s motion or swing mechanics, but the swing mechanic is to come to an early elbow plane in the downswing... And sure if you have a flatter shaft after transition, it will steepen into release... that is what the players in the past often where doing. Today they shallow out at the buttom - totally different swing mechanics IMOP.
You will not find a lot of players who make a backswing with a shallow hands path plane today - if you look at Tiger Woods he sends the sweetspot from setup directly up to the TSP and then shifts to the elbow plane (his handpath is nearly vertical) - if people call this connected, why not - but this is not my cup of tee.

@eightiron: Sure I believe Mr. Hogan shifted from P6 to P7 from the elbow plane to the shaft plane...
Maybe you can post a pic where you think Mr. Hogan has his hands, elbow and turned shoulder plane -
I think we are meaning the same - but we draw differently the lines. If I draw my lines a little higher I would say
he is swinging from TSP to Elbow plane as well.
Hopefully one day, you could give me some advice like: Chris if you stay longer in extension in transition while turning, then your left arm and handpath would shift more out and at P6 your shoulders would be square and you could come down on the elbow plane and you would be 1 inch closer to Mr. Hogans swing...

@joejolfwrx : Looks like in this vid I positioned the camera directly behind the hands at setup to view the swingplane...
If I look what my pivot is doing I set the camera behind my hips and if I want to look the ballflight, I position the
camera on the baseline..

Chris

[quote name='1lovegolf24' timestamp='1303477283' post='3176109'] Chris, do you belive the downloop, as you call it, was intentional or just a reactionary motion of the club head? [/quote] Of course it was a reaction in Mr. Hogans swing. I knew in my own case, if I never saw a video of my swing, I could swear there is no loop - it is a reaction - even in true speed you will not notice my loop - this is the 9 Iron shot in true speed from the first vid: <object height="390" width="640"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vFH8iI_67VA?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vFH8iI_67VA?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="390" width="640"></object>

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1303497057' post='3176948']
[quote name='1lovegolf24' timestamp='1303477283' post='3176109'] Chris, do you belive the downloop, as you call it, was intentional or just a reactionary motion of the club head? [/quote] Of course it was a reaction in Mr. Hogans swing. I knew in my own case, if I never saw a video of my swing, I could swear there is no loop - it is a reaction - even in true speed you will not notice my loop - this is the 9 Iron shot in true speed from the first vid: <object height="390" width="640"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vFH8iI_67VA?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vFH8iI_67VA?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="390" width="640"></object>
[/quote]


Its a nice swing and the guys are just picking on you, bc that is what they do. But you should take Eight's point. It looks like a manipulation (even though it may not feel like one). It looks like right at the top of the set there is a loop. The difference is Hogans reacted to his pivot. Once your pivot kicks in after loop transition, the shaft gets steep again. That is why the loop looks forced. Goes steep, loop to flat, then pulled steep again. The loop is not a reaction to the pivot, the -resteepening of the shaft is the reaction is.

] Of course it was a reaction in Mr. Hogans swing. I knew in my own case, if I never saw a video of my swing, I could swear there is no loop - it is a reaction - even in true speed you will not notice my loop - this is the 9 Iron shot in true speed from the first vid: <

Chris, enjoy. I haven't seen good players without that kind of move. I haven't found any other way to get open shoulders at impact than that. Th move doesn't guarantee open shoulders, but missing it guaranties closed or straight.

What a loop? :man_in_love: :man_in_love:

Yes... I don't like how he's stopping the rotation and kind of flipping at impact, but the basic is great and doing quite well anyway

I think this is even better. That's THE MOVE!

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1303496406' post='3176912']


@eightiron: Sure I believe Mr. Hogan shifted from P6 to P7 from the elbow plane to the shaft plane...
Maybe you can post a pic where you think Mr. Hogan has his hands, elbow and turned shoulder plane -
I think we are meaning the same - but we draw differently the lines. If I draw my lines a little higher I would say
he is swinging from TSP to Elbow plane as well.
Hopefully one day, you could give me some advice like: Chris if you stay longer in extension in transition while turning, then your left arm and handpath would shift more out and at P6 your shoulders would be square and you could come down on the elbow plane and you would be 1 inch closer to Mr. Hogans swing...

@joejolfwrx : Looks like in this vid I positioned the camera directly behind the hands at setup to view the swingplane...
If I look what my pivot is doing I set the camera behind my hips and if I want to look the ballflight, I position the
camera on the baseline..

Chris
[/quote]

Chris the advice you gave yourself is not going to get you one inch closer, in fact if you extend , stand up ... it would make you shift the plane more right
In fact you have been given advice by morad guys to increase lateral flexion to get your hands up to the turned shoulder plane, more pivot towards the ball
And no , I don't think hogan shifted plane from p6 to p7 , maybe on some short shots or punch shots , but not full swings

I think this is even better. That's THE MOVE!

Alvaro right? He strikes it as good as anyone..... But his motion is different , way different to hogan.... You need to look at how the body works

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1303543302' post='3178639']

Alvaro right? He strikes it as good as anyone..... But his motion is different , way different to hogan.... You need to look at how the body works
[/quote]

Alvaro for sure. And only 25cm taller than Hogan. It might set some adjustments for body. But the downloop is same.

So is this "downloop" a result of passive hands throughout the swing, or is the early travel of the sweetspot a desired ingredient to good ballstriking? Or all of the above?

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1303543930' post='3178646']
So is this "downloop" a result of passive hands throughout the swing, or is the early travel of the sweetspot a desired ingredient to good ballstriking? Or all of the above?
[/quote]

I can't see that could be result of passive hands. Players who are use to do it can feel like that, but it's learned someway.

For me it's active motion, where player rotates the arm triangle open by dropping right elbow well under the left. And it's the move that produces terrible push slice for average golfers, because they don't usually have good pivot enough to square the club face. So it's easier to come OTT and close the club face by arms rotation through impact than learn this whole action with all those body movements.