The purpose of the Downloop...

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  • eightironeightiron Banned Posts: 3,136
    chris_golf wrote:

    JD3 wrote:


    Chris

    By any chance is your backswing influenced by Harvey Penick's advice on chipping in his little red book? He used to tell students to pretend they were chipping the ball underneath an imaginary bench.

    JD3 wrote:


    Unfortunately this is yet another sad ending for a misguided effort to swing like Hogan. Disconnected arms, off plane, excess pronation, handsy plane shift ... opposite of Hogan and a poor basis for a good swing in general. ugh

    JD3 wrote:


    Did Hogan really have this big plane shift thats being taken for granted? Watching this entire series I honestly don't see it, unlike Chris who rolls it and raises the handle.

    JD3 wrote:


    You answered it to the contrary right there if good players arent aware that makes it subtle and unconscious. No ones saying a swing doesnt have plane shifts, only that in BH's case its subtle and not deliberate. It's the copiers who both exaggerate and manufacture that produce picasso versions of the Mona Lisa




    Normally this is not my character, but JD need´s someone who is bringing him down to earth.



    Here is an example what happens if you don´t have a flattening move - my swing is in no way perfect, but I can say

    I knew what I do. Contrary there are persons with 2882 posts and they define themselves as Hogan experts.





    Chris, a lot of teachers would say parallax on those swings of JD.
  • DizDiz Members Posts: 475 ✭✭
    chris how far is that 6 iron carrying in the air?
  • JD3JD3 Members Posts: 4,528 ✭✭
    edited Apr 29, 2011 #124
    @Chris

    I never said I swing like hogan, never put up my swing vs his, never said I use "the same technique" as you did. Never ever ever. Most of my swing questions are posted in the SnT thread. But even not being any kind of expert I can see youre way off. As for posting frequency you posted a bunch here and in other threads about hogan and images of your swing that show no signs of change or improvement. Instead you stubbornly hang onto your fantasy and arrogantly reject the sincere advice of keen observers like 8i and dap. You are seriously wearing people out.
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  • TeeAceTeeAce Members Posts: 1,895
    chris_golf wrote:

    6enh09an wrote:
    Ultimate test if someone has got Hogan's moves---is if that someone can still mimic Hogan's movements if the swing gets super quick tempo like Hogan.. You would have no time to "mimic"Hogan there.. Chris' swing is slow.. SoChris, assuming you've got Hogan, can you do it very quick please so we can see if the Hogan moves/components would still be there?
    I don´t have Mr. Hogan´s move - I use his handpath plane... thats all. Believe me I can´t do my movement in slowmotion - my pivot is doing the loop... In full speed you can barely see any loop... <object height="390" width="640"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/TLu4nAto5MI?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/TLu4nAto5MI?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="390" width="640"></object> <object height="390" width="640"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/uJvr44qAW9o?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/uJvr44qAW9o?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="390" width="640"></object> You can bet, that with my longer clubs I have to use a longer backswing - but with my short and middle Irons? I thought they are for accuracy! Chris






    Chris I think You start to be quite near. You already got the idea and moves. Next step is to put more power into it. And much more. That will change many things and I think You will be quite close after that. Stop thinking moves now. Try to keep them alive and hit it hard!
  • DizDiz Members Posts: 475 ✭✭
    TeeAce wrote:

    chris_golf wrote:

    6enh09an wrote:
    Ultimate test if someone has got Hogan's moves---is if that someone can still mimic Hogan's movements if the swing gets super quick tempo like Hogan.. You would have no time to "mimic"Hogan there.. Chris' swing is slow.. SoChris, assuming you've got Hogan, can you do it very quick please so we can see if the Hogan moves/components would still be there?
    I don´t have Mr. Hogan´s move - I use his handpath plane... thats all. Believe me I can´t do my movement in slowmotion - my pivot is doing the loop... In full speed you can barely see any loop... <object height="390" width="640"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/TLu4nAto5MI?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/TLu4nAto5MI?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="390" width="640"></object> <object height="390" width="640"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/uJvr44qAW9o?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/uJvr44qAW9o?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="390" width="640"></object> You can bet, that with my longer clubs I have to use a longer backswing - but with my short and middle Irons? I thought they are for accuracy! Chris






    Chris I think You start to be quite near. You already got the idea and moves. Next step is to put more power into it. And much more. That will change many things and I think You will be quite close after that. Stop thinking moves now. Try to keep them alive and hit it hard!






    Have to agree with teeace man, more energy will get u releasing high like hogan... i bet ur swing looks different with a higher finish..
  • 1lovegolf241lovegolf24 Members Posts: 116
    Chris-golf, Hi Chris, in my most humble opinion, there is no purpose for the downloop. It is merely a natural occurance. This downloop is a result of the body wanting to swing in the most efficient manner.
  • chris_golfchris_golf Members Posts: 423


    Chris-golf, Hi Chris, in my most humble opinion, there is no purpose for the downloop. It is merely a natural occurance. This downloop is a result of the body wanting to swing in the most efficient manner.




    Maybe... but there is more to it...



    Look to my avatar and then think about, why I came down in pitch elbow and how?



    My definition of a downloop I explanied before ( butt end pointing over baseline after transition) - I would be interested how the teacher´s who teaching "swinging left" think about handpath and shallowing the path.

    IMHO you would need something like concave/convex handpath to do it effectively...

    Then you have to tinker if you would want a punch or pitch elbow... etc. etc...



    Chris
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  • markponimarkponi Members Posts: 580
    My latest swing thought is this which applies very closely to the topic at hand. Swing over the top with the flatest downswing plane possible. Compression and workability is easy.
  • chris_golfchris_golf Members Posts: 423
    markponi wrote:
    My latest swing thought is this which applies very closely to the topic at hand. Swing over the top with the flatest downswing plane possible. Compression and workability is easy.
    Sure it is not a pattern for everyone - but Mr. Hogan did it perfectly... why not follow him... This player even don´t need a downloop, just a little OTT handpath... interesting that he uses as well the right elbow folding in the downswing and the flat right shoulder turn (where did he saw this?), I love it: <object height="390" width="480"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/U2SkC8MDVPA?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/U2SkC8MDVPA?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="390" width="480"></object> Chris
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  • dream_strykerdream_stryker Members Posts: 565
    chris_golf wrote:

    JD3 wrote:


    Chris

    By any chance is your backswing influenced by Harvey Penick's advice on chipping in his little red book? He used to tell students to pretend they were chipping the ball underneath an imaginary bench.

    JD3 wrote:


    Unfortunately this is yet another sad ending for a misguided effort to swing like Hogan. Disconnected arms, off plane, excess pronation, handsy plane shift ... opposite of Hogan and a poor basis for a good swing in general. ugh

    JD3 wrote:


    Did Hogan really have this big plane shift thats being taken for granted? Watching this entire series I honestly don't see it, unlike Chris who rolls it and raises the handle.



    JD3 wrote:


    You answered it to the contrary right there if good players arent aware that makes it subtle and unconscious. No ones saying a swing doesnt have plane shifts, only that in BH's case its subtle and not deliberate. It's the copiers who both exaggerate and manufacture that produce picasso versions of the Mona Lisa




    Normally this is not my character, but JD need´s someone who is bringing him down to earth.



    Here is an example what happens if you don´t have a flattening move - my swing is in no way perfect, but I can say

    I knew what I do. Contrary there are persons with 2882 posts and they define themselves as Hogan experts.





    Interesting side by side. The meat and potatoes of them however is that in one swing the arms are synched...in the other...they are a tad late and behind the pivot. Despite the flaw du jours usually pointed out on this board....you can get a ball around pretty darn effectively if the upper body centers are synched with the arms. The million dollar question however is how the heck did Hogan lay it off and still keep the arms in sync? Us late starters go down this path of lay off and lag development that can never be released because its executed by detaching the arms in the BS which makes them swing behind the pivot in the DS....swing left all you want...late is late. I've yet to see a amateur Hogan style swing on this board (except from SF students) that lays off and lags in sync (not that I've seen them all either).
  • dream_strykerdream_stryker Members Posts: 565
    chris_golf wrote:

    markponi wrote:
    My latest swing thought is this which applies very closely to the topic at hand. Swing over the top with the flatest downswing plane possible. Compression and workability is easy.
    Sure it is not a pattern for everyone - but Mr. Hogan did it perfectly... why not follow him... This player even don´t need a downloop, just a little OTT handpath... interesting that he uses as well the right elbow folding in the downswing and the flat right shoulder turn (where did he saw this?), I love it: <object height="390" width="480"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/U2SkC8MDVPA?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/U2SkC8MDVPA?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="390" width="480"></object> Chris




    I think the difference between techniques is that C Sifford's body isn't locking around impact forcing him to level out out the shoulder turn in the post impact phase to get any type of rotation through impact. Sure he comes out of it at the end but the balls is well gone by then. Your follow though is almost a dead giveway that your trail shoulder or core is locking....preventing the shoulders from turning on an incline plane post impact...by the time you get to the ball the only way your body will allow you to rotate is level to the ground. Despite the "flatness' Mr Hogan's swing...his shoulder rotation and tilts are still on an inclined plane.
  • TeeAceTeeAce Members Posts: 1,895




    Interesting side by side. The meat and potatoes of them however is that in one swing the arms are synched...in the other...they are a tad late and behind the pivot. Despite the flaw du jours usually pointed out on this board....you can get a ball around pretty darn effectively if the upper body centers are synched with the arms. The million dollar question however is how the heck did Hogan lay it off and still keep the arms in sync? Us late starters go down this path of lay off and lag development that can never be released because its executed by detaching the arms in the BS which makes them swing behind the pivot in the DS....swing left all you want...late is late. I've yet to see a amateur Hogan style swing on this board (except from SF students) that lays off and lags in sync (not that I've seen them all either).




    How You think to manage together two things: Open shoulders and hands, arms and club head to be not behind the pivot. I thing those things are so strongly connected to each other that I can't see any other way to do it. Hands and club head in front of the body = square shoulders at impact. No other way.
  • JD3JD3 Members Posts: 4,528 ✭✭
    edited May 4, 2011 #134


    Interesting side by side. The meat and potatoes of them however is that in one swing the arms are synched...in the other...they are a tad late and behind the pivot. Despite the flaw du jours usually pointed out on this board........I've yet to see a amateur Hogan style swing on this board (except from SF students) that lays off and lags in sync (not that I've seen them all either).


    Setting the record straight again I never said I swing like, never said I wanted, never compared my swing to his, never said I use the same technique etc etc like the OP. Yet i hit it pure. The lesson here and why as you never see the hogan wannabes post a good swing, is that they'd be better off stopping the delusion they get hogan and just work on something they do get
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  • chris_golfchris_golf Members Posts: 423
    @JD : Why you post on this forum... only to critique other swingstyles than your own...

    You have zero tollerance in all your posts about other swingstyles then your "reality".

    To bad you can give only critiques in your posts and never give something positive or constructive to the forum. I feel sorry for you and can´t understand your agenda to post.



    I am here to learn and to give and share my thoughts... most times here are really good posters , who understand different swing patterns and can discuss these differences and there are as well a lot of true Hogan fans. Sure my journey is

    to understand Mr. Hogan´s swing better. Other posters journey is to critique what they don´t want to see or what they want to see.



    I thought I would discuss handpath (downloop) and the resulting elbow position and release pattern of Mr. Hogan...



    Chris
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  • JD3JD3 Members Posts: 4,528 ✭✭
    edited May 4, 2011 #136
    Well chris youre wrong about me again. I think hogan had the best swing and yet I don't try to swing like him. That means I'm very open to different ways to get it done. What I don't get about you is continuing to post failed attempts at analyzing and copying hogan (in whole or part) and not showing an ounce of improvement or willingness to incorporate advice from others who have a better handle. The swings of mine that you have great contempt for are from almost 2 years ago and were put up specifically to seek feedback on how I was progressing and what I needed to work on going forward. And were given high marks from instructors for the progress from earlier swings. I sure hope today further signs of Improvement are there and if not then I'm guilty of not listening and would work on that too. Why can't you do the same?
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  • grahlergrahler Banned Posts: 759
    Hogans pivot is so much more dynamic than OP it makes comparison difficult Hogans hips and shoulders are rotating so much harder than OP and handpath is more result of pivot-not simple hand manipulation.



    Face on view in avatar shows shoulder rotation stall then impact-this is clearly not using Hogan's mechanics. Hogan's shaft was not released before impact.



    There is a reason for this.



    Butch Harmon said back in the day everyone tried to be Hogan so if it were easy there would be a lot of folks swinging just like him now but there's not because it's not easy. Homer Kelley mentioned that three barrel players had nothing to fear from the four barrel people unless four barrel was fully mastered.



    Hogan was four barrel so realize that searching for Hogan's move is like searching for a grail.



    I commend anyone's efforts to swing like Hogan and good luck maybe someday you can get close.



  • JOEGOLFWRXJOEGOLFWRX Members Posts: 1,126
    edited May 5, 2011 #138
    speaking of which, what is the result of your downloop on your game?



    re: dispersion, trajectory control, distance control, spin control, shot shape options, choice of tempos, stock shot and misses.



    imo the bulk catalyst for the reason hogan is looked at by so many for so long.



    i appreciate learning can be 1 step forwards 2 steps back, and golf is known for stepped gains/losses, ..just curious about your real gains/losses at present.
  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned Posts: 20,715
    Chris, I was thinking about it. Being that you are nearly a foot taller than Hogan, do you think the dynamics can be the same?

    Can you use your height more to your advantage maybe?



    Should turn that downloop into a wicked whip and kill the ball, no?
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  • chris_golfchris_golf Members Posts: 423
    JOEGOLFWRX wrote:


    speaking of which, what is the result of your downloop on your game?



    re: dispersion, trajectory control, distance control, spin control, shot shape options, choice of tempos, stock shot and misses.



    imo the bulk catalyst for the reason hogan is looked at by so many for so long.



    i appreciate learning can be 1 step forwards 2 steps back, and golf is known for stepped gains/losses, ..just curious about your real gains/losses at present.




    Joe,



    I had this downloop from the beginning and learned it from "five lessons"



    For the Hogan conspiracy gang _ this is where Mr. Hogan shows the downloop:

    [color="#FF0000"][color="#000000"]You really want to know this? Look here:

    [url=&quot;http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/423165-cp-fade/page__hl__cp+fade&quot;]http://www.golfwrx.c...ge__hl__cp+fade[/url]





    Chris



    BTW: In my Avatar with the Driver is it 4-3-1? Thank you...



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  • JOEGOLFWRXJOEGOLFWRX Members Posts: 1,126
    edited May 6, 2011 #141
    chris_golf wrote:


    I don´t try to downloop - it is part of my swing since the beginning.


    oh, i missed that, lol. do you ever use other angles, ..as a video guy you could make split screen (fo + dtl) through a 1/4 set, spectrum minimum to maximum downloop, see better what your doing to your pivot/planes as you ramp it up.



    (...im guessing the 431Q is to someone else)
  • chris_golfchris_golf Members Posts: 423
    magnum184 wrote:


    Hmmm.



    You're right. Studying Hogan is a complete waste of time.



    He wasn't even close to achieving perfect sequencing.

    He didn't understand a thing about the Laws of golf.

    In fact, there are no laws in golf. Geometry and physics aren't even applicable in golf are they?

    He wasn't even close to a biomechanical model.



    Truth is he was the model for perfect sequencing.

    There are laws that apply for everyone. A golf swing has always and will always be able to be explained by math and science.

    Geometry and physics apply to everyone. Impact conditions are everything and geometry and physics and biomechanics are at the heart of it. He is the biomechanical model.



    Hogan was the epitome of this. His fundamentals can apply to everyone. In fact, they are ideal no matter how one swings to some degree.



    You think Hogan was full of compensations for a hook? You think he hit a fade all day long? He could hook the snot out of it anytime he wanted.



    Tell me what you know about sequencing, impact laws, and anatomy/biomechanics before you claim studying Ben Hogan is a waste of time. You understand that and you'll see why he could do what he did.



    Nobody ever said the man was perfect. That is rediculous. But laws are laws. There is a perfect swing. It's perfect impact conditions for the desired shot. Attaining that perfection is rarely attainable. However, getting as close as possible as consistently as possible is the goal. Golf is a game of misses. A swing that produces misses that really aren't bad misses more often than not due to application of geometrical and physics laws.................well................now you're getting to Ben Hogan.



    Waste of time? Not hardly.






    +1



    I quoted this from a former poster here, because I think as well it is worth to studying Mr. Hogan closely. I try to attempt to have a clearer picture of it - why not? I will never look the same - but there a key motions I would like to have and understand - do I have these already- of course not, but first I have to understand them clearly and thru this process I have to go deeper into pivot and clubmotion and try to explain it to understand it better for myself...



    Waste of time? No, I enjoy it.

    To master your own golf swing - there is no time frame! Who cares if I arrive in 1 year or 8 years where I want to be...



    Chris



    @joegolfwrx : good idea - yeah I use video to verify if my feelings are changing anything - mostly not...
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  • magnum184magnum184 Members Posts: 982
    edited May 8, 2011 #143
    Well Chris, there is nothing wrong with getting down to what makes something tick. Understanding the mechanics can be very useful. But, when it comes to the application I think you'll be going rack back to feels which may or may not be the truth. For what limited knowledge of Hogan I have, I think his books contain the best imagery for the player if they go at it and learn it piece for piece. I think he did or tried/felt he did everything he said. Even if he felt it and he doesn't do it or it doesn't look like he did it, then I still see no reason to avoid that same feel. Toss in the

    extra blurbs from him and it's the basic package. Might get you to the ballpark. Don't know. I just think one has to constantly work on those fundamentals. Tough deal. Damned constant process of refinement.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Siteseer2Siteseer2 ClubWRX Posts: 1,155
    edited May 10, 2011 #144
    Chris: Love your passion, man...but gotta tell you...take that energy and go SEE someone who can channel it for you, constructively...You load into your right elbow, which gets you so underplane at p4 its ridiculous, you spin the shaft at p4.5 which gets you more underplane, and the pivot sequence is way off--you are 40 yds right at p5, which means you have to roll all **** out of the left wrist to even remotely get the ball to start anywhere near the baseline at impact...not trying to brutalize you....just saying HEY...with some help you can better channel that energy...all this talk of Hogan is like the other side of the universe...just saying...
  • 6enh09an6enh09an Members Posts: 111
    Siteseer2 wrote:


    Chris: Love your passion, man...but gotta tell you...take that energy and go SEE someone who can channel it for you, constructively...You load into your right elbow, which gets you so underplane at p4 its ridiculous, you spin the shaft at p4.5 which gets you more underplane, and the pivot sequence is way off--you are 40 yds right at p5, which means you have to roll all **** out of the left wrist to even remotely get the ball to start anywhere near the baseline at impact...not trying to brutalize you....just saying HEY...with some help you can better channel that energy...all this talk of Hogan is like the other side of the universe...just saying...




    Any suggestion on who teacher can help get us to Hogan?
  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned Posts: 20,715
    let's keep this thread going!



    Chris, how's that push fade?
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  • JD3JD3 Members Posts: 4,528 ✭✭
    Whatever happened to Chris? Hope he's ok post-Seve. That other stuff was just messing around.
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  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned Posts: 20,715
    ya, wonder where chris went.
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    All shafts are S2S Stepless Steel Wishon
  • PingG10guyPingG10guy Members Posts: 4,057
  • Pinsplitter59Pinsplitter59 Members Posts: 976 ✭✭
    edited Jul 28, 2011 #150
    you gotta be real careful just looking at videos.

    Quiros looks like he has a big "downloop",

    in reality his hands go up and down on almost excactly the same line.

    its the changing shape of the body on the downswing that leads to a misperception.

    Hogan as well nearly always "came over the top", his hands are more out on the downswing than on the backswing.

    (not by much though!!).

    but as you can see from the pic neither of these two have anything like a big "downloop".

    interesting to see Hogan's backswing hands path, looks just like he describes how you throw a basketball underhand, slightly concave (in and up).

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