Howard Jones asked me to help him post his new and improved shaft chart. Enjoy. Click the chart to enlarge.
Any idea on the FCM of the C-Taper Lite X no stepping? Hit one in the golf shop the other day and loved the added swing weight, just want to see what it is comparable to.
I dont have a exact FCM value, but its in line with KBS TOUR R+ 115 grams taper (or a cpm or 2 stronger) so it should be in the area of FCM 5.6 to 5.7.
I never measured one myself, so i cant be more precise, but CPM measured butt side only, dont tell anything about the rest of the shaft, so never think that 2 shafts with the same FCM number will feel the same.
Interesting. I was using a project x 6.0 and my fitter told me we needed to go closer to a 6.5. i ended up liking the c-taper x lite more. The c-taper x felt harder to feel the head. I have a pretty fast swing speed. Do you think i'm getting too flexible of a shaft for my swing speed. My fitting had me at 100-102mph with 6i. Just seems odd to go softer than my 6.0.
Howard Jones asked me to help him post his new and improved shaft chart. Enjoy. Click the chart to enlarge.
Any idea on the FCM of the C-Taper Lite X no stepping? Hit one in the golf shop the other day and loved the added swing weight, just want to see what it is comparable to.
I dont have a exact FCM value, but its in line with KBS TOUR R+ 115 grams taper (or a cpm or 2 stronger) so it should be in the area of FCM 5.6 to 5.7.
I never measured one myself, so i cant be more precise, but CPM measured butt side only, dont tell anything about the rest of the shaft, so never think that 2 shafts with the same FCM number will feel the same.
Interesting. I was using a project x 6.0 and my fitter told me we needed to go closer to a 6.5. i ended up liking the c-taper x lite more. The c-taper x felt harder to feel the head. I have a pretty fast swing speed. Do you think i'm getting too flexible of a shaft for my swing speed. My fitting had me at 100-102mph with 6i. Just seems odd to go softer than my 6.0.
If shaft weight is right, dispersion good, and feel is good, the shaft is good for you.
You are in the higher end of club speed, so it would be natural to think you need a rebar of some sort, but that depend on your swing more than clubspeed, because its not about how fast you swing, but how you swing fast.
A smooth swing player can play almost anything without dispersion problems, while the brutal one, needs a stiffer shaft to handle the forces he puts on the shaft.
I have a Tour Issue FUJIKURA MOTORE SPEEDER VC 7.2 TOUR SPEC that has a taylormade R11s label on it. It was made for that specific Taylormade driver, I’m wondering if it’s a ligit motore speeder? Is it worth installing on my favorite driver head ping g30 ls tec? Or should I get the motore speeder that does not have a taylormade label bc theres is a substantial difference? Your thoughts and input would be much appreciated.
I have a Tour Issue FUJIKURA MOTORE SPEEDER VC 7.2 TOUR SPEC that has a taylormade R11s label on it. It was made for that specific Taylormade driver, I'm wondering if it's a ligit motore speeder? Is it worth installing on my favorite driver head ping g30 ls tec? Or should I get the motore speeder that does not have a taylormade label bc theres is a substantial difference? Your thoughts and input would be much appreciated.
why dont you post that question in the forum, it dont belong to this tread at all
I have a Tour Issue FUJIKURA MOTORE SPEEDER VC 7.2 TOUR SPEC that has a taylormade R11s label on it. It was made for that specific Taylormade driver, I'm wondering if it's a ligit motore speeder? Is it worth installing on my favorite driver head ping g30 ls tec? Or should I get the motore speeder that does not have a taylormade label bc theres is a substantial difference? Your thoughts and input would be much appreciated.
why dont you post that question in the forum, it dont belong to this tread at all
He did start another thread with the same question.
I can see that this tread is still found of interest from many users, but im afraid that most of you who ask for a update is unaware of how little value a chart like this actually have, so before i put any energy into making another with models who came to the marked the years after this chart was made, and some from that time like Nippon who was not on that chart at all, i would like to both tell you all about a few things, and ask you all a few questions before i decide if i will make another or not.
About the FCM flex system
The FCM system or frequency matching system for shaft flex is a invention from Brunswick Royal Precision, and it is NOT compatible for judgement of any other shafts......Its made to compare Rifle vs Rifle from shaft to shaft, or flex to flex, and the shaft design itself is made for that. The only other shaft on the marked i know who is based on the same judgement system is KBS Tour Parallels, who uses the same tip trim instructions, flex slope and flex chart for judgement.
That means all the other shafts on the marked is NOT really compatible with this system at all, so when we try to judge all shaft on the marked this way, we do them all wrong, and would be almost like we put a beginner on the back tee...he want have a fair chance to show off what he can do, the judgement becomes unfair.
The problem is, that since RIFLE has the same profile for all flexes, so each zone in the shaft is progressively softer or stronger, we dont need to check them for anything else than butt CPM to figure out "who they are"....
Thats NOT the case with "all the other" shafts on the marked, not even a shaft like Dynamic GOLD has the same actual profile zone to zone from R to S or X like Rifle has.
That means, when we only measure butt CPM like the Rifle FCM system is based on, thats the only part of the shaft we get to know, we know nothing about the rest, so unlike RIFLE (or KBS Tour) the return number is NOT a indication of "how strong feel will be" because we have not measured more than a tiny little part of the shaft and still know nothing about the rest.
If the compare we base it all on is uncut shafts, we make this even worse and even less useful, because we never play a shaft to full length, we always cut some of the butt section off. Example A typical players club built to "standard" play length using Dynamic Gold Tapers will need a butt cut down to play length of about 2.25"
Now imagine this scenario...we measured the shafts uncut using the RILFE FCM standard and 2.5" inch clamp like the original FCM standard is, and KBS is still using, and built the clubs to standard play length using DG Tapers.
How much is left of the butt we measured to find the shafts we wanted to use? 2/8" inches is the answer
Do you really think the upper 2/8" of the shaft is so important, that we should have a chart like this as pinned topic? Neither do i.
Next problem with a chart like this, now using shafts cut to play length and built with standard head weight where we use a 5.0 clamp and actually measure 5 inch of the shaft that we would play would be like i wrote above, we dont know anything about the rest of it, so if this is a shaft that will feel stiff or soft, we still dont know, but thats not all, its more to it still, because now e also have to talk flex SLOPE......
As shafts goes shorter from one club to the other, measured BUTT CPM (Cycles pr minute) will go up, but how much is a question of how the designer of the shaft wanted that to be.
RIFLE FCM is designed with a flex slope of 8.6 CPM pr.inch as Standard Flight, and 11.88 as Flighted, so even Rifles need 2 different charts to be judged right, ONLY their #6 iron has the same butt CPM, and that means no matter other shaft model we try to compare to Rifles chart, "they want fit", but that DOES NOT mean that the shaft is "off flex", because a shaft like DG X100 Tapers has a design that when we measure butt CPM ends up with a slope above 10 CPM pr inch, so its the chart on the wall from Rifle who is wrong, not the shaft, its designed to be that way.
The last issue is, that i no longer run my shop, so i no longer has access to shafts like i did, and need the help of others or collect them from the net or other users.
The question is, when you know all what i told you now ( ive done that several times in this tread), and say the chart was made to help advanced club makers, NOT to help players to find the right shaft or shaft flex, do you really feel the need for a update?
I'm not sure why there's not more info regarding FCM. I found KBS to be one of the front runners as far as providing any data regarding any type of measurement; attached is a single page from their .370 shaft trimming guide. If you know what flex you are looking for the table works well for their shafts...
Ping G25 w/Ping Tour 65 R
Cal XR16 4W w/Speeder Evo 565 R
Ping G30 22* Hybrid Stock R
Ping i15 5-W KBS R+ Titleist 50* F Grind KBS 115 W
Ping Glide SS 54* w/KBS Hi Rev R Ping Glide SS 58* CFS Wedge
Odyssey Ti Hot #2
I'm not sure why there's not more info regarding FCM. I found KBS to be one of the front runners as far as providing any data regarding any type of measurement; attached is a single page from their .370 shaft trimming guide. If you know what flex you are looking for the table works well for their shafts...
did you read the post just above here? it answer the question you ask
I missed the reference to KBS Tours; they also have a trimming guide for the parallel C-Taper & C-Taper Lites' on their site: http://kbsgolfshafts.com/
I think a lot of us on the forum regarded the shaft chart as gospel, I have not invested in a meter but the chart got us in the ball park of what we were trying to achieve. As my guy said, " leave the club building to me" /rtfm.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rtfm:' /> There's a LOT more to it as you've conveyed several times. Thank you for sharing some your expertise!!
Very respectfully, BD
Ping G25 w/Ping Tour 65 R
Cal XR16 4W w/Speeder Evo 565 R
Ping G30 22* Hybrid Stock R
Ping i15 5-W KBS R+ Titleist 50* F Grind KBS 115 W
Ping Glide SS 54* w/KBS Hi Rev R Ping Glide SS 58* CFS Wedge
Odyssey Ti Hot #2
Lazy, don't want to go through 27 pages, so........is there a graphite iron shaft chart?
Cobra F9 9* + Tour AD IZ 7x. Callaway Rogue SZ 15 Tour Issue + Tour AD IZ 7x. Callaway Rogue 19 Tour Issue + Tour AD IZ 8s. Adams Pro 23 Tour Issue + Tour AD UT95x Adams DHY Pro 27 + Irod 105x. Adams XTD Forged Tour Issue 6i - GW + Recoil Prototype 125F5. Adams XTD Forged SW/LW + KBS Hi-Rev x. SeeMore SB1, Accra FX300, Garsen.
Playing X100s now but they feel a little firm, S300 are a little soft. Have an S400 in my 50* and love everything about the way that club performs and feels.... I guess I could HS S300 in my irons but could it be a fair assumption that the S400 may be a better move? 6i speed is around 85 mph, mostly smooth transition and tempo.
Also like the 5.5 flighted shafts, but they do feel a little light...
Mizuno ST190G Atmos black TS 9* Mizuno ST180 Tensei blue 15* Titleist 816 H1 19* Fujikura Motore 8.8 TS Bridgestone J15 CB X100 Titleist SM5 50/56 Odyssey PT2 Srixon Z Star XV
I’m trying to gain some launch and spin in long irons in KBS Tour S. Spin rate in 6i only 4500. Carry 175. Thinking of soft stepping 4,5 and 6 but leaving the others the same. Any matching issues with flex?
Thanks,
Ken
@kstevenson said:
I’m trying to gain some launch and spin in long irons in KBS Tour S. Spin rate in 6i only 4500. Carry 175. Thinking of soft stepping 4,5 and 6 but leaving the others the same. Any matching issues with flex?
Thanks,
Ken
One step (soft or hard) is unlikely to give any noticeable change in ball flight, it's only really a very subtle tweak to the feel only. Even x2 isn't likely to do much for the ball flight. But that means for most wont cause any issues matching feel between the clubs that are stepped and the ones that are not.
If you really want to gain some launch and spin, just have the lofts bent weaker. But keep in mind that those number may not be indicative of real life performance if they were obtained with an LM hitting off of a mat. Some mats can scrub as much as 2k off the spin rates.
@kstevenson said:
I’m trying to gain some launch and spin in long irons in KBS Tour S. Spin rate in 6i only 4500. Carry 175. Thinking of soft stepping 4,5 and 6 but leaving the others the same. Any matching issues with flex?
Thanks,
Ken
This was not a good tread to post a question like that....but.
Shafts is designed to a certain flex slope, and they are different from shaft to shaft, so when we open that can of worms called flex, its a question of how we judge it, and how it works for THIS player...
Example. Rifle has a slope of 4.25 between clubs and DG X100 is above 5 cpms.
If we used lets say the #6 iron, we have lots of examples where measured flex on the #6 becomes the same, but because of shaft design either goes stronger or softer both ways vs the other.vDG will look soft in the long end compared to Rifle and stronger in the short end, because the design of the shaft makes them to become like that, and since KBS and RIfle is made the same way, we have a little room for manipulation of flex slope, like we see on the NEW FLIGHTED version with a slipe of almost 6 CPM from club to club. (softer long irons than standard, end stronger short irons than standard (progressive), thats how the NEW Rifle Flighted is made)
When you mix a set, some strait in, some softstepped we mess up the original slope a bit, but if its good or bad is a question about how that works for YOU, but if feel and dispersion is good now DONT mess with them, use static lofts to get ball flight right. All a shaft can do, is bend more or less, and by that add more loft or reduce loft at impact, so if we go softer, by the book that means a tad more forward shaft bending and a tad more loft at impact, but we get to the same by a loft tweak.
Some players seems to believe that shafts can overrule loft tweak, but thats wrong, so if the shaft ADDS loft, we get the same "new distance" as we get by changing static loft the same...loft is loft, the ball has no clue where it comes from, so if its s shaft bending a little more, or lofts is set a little weaker, its the same we get as ball flight, if loft at impact is the same
So, dont fix it if it aint broken, if its only a ball flight question, and shaft weight, feel and dispersion is good, KEEP the shafts as they are, and tweak static lofts to get the ball flight you want, its faster and cheaper and ALWAYS works, we dont really know what changes a SS1 gives, but its small. Its first at SS2 we get to really se a difference
Comments
Interesting. I was using a project x 6.0 and my fitter told me we needed to go closer to a 6.5. i ended up liking the c-taper x lite more. The c-taper x felt harder to feel the head. I have a pretty fast swing speed. Do you think i'm getting too flexible of a shaft for my swing speed. My fitting had me at 100-102mph with 6i. Just seems odd to go softer than my 6.0.
If shaft weight is right, dispersion good, and feel is good, the shaft is good for you.
You are in the higher end of club speed, so it would be natural to think you need a rebar of some sort, but that depend on your swing more than clubspeed, because its not about how fast you swing, but how you swing fast.
A smooth swing player can play almost anything without dispersion problems, while the brutal one, needs a stiffer shaft to handle the forces he puts on the shaft.
Weight, dispersion, feel....
If all 3 is good, the shaft is a good fit
Mizuno ST-190TS 15* Tensei White 70X
Nike Vapor Pro Combo 2-A wedge AMT X100 (plus 1/2" 3 up)
Nike Engage Dual Sole 58 DG S400 (plus 1/2" 3 up)
Nike Origin B1-01
Nike RZN Tour Platinum
why dont you post that question in the forum, it dont belong to this tread at all
He did start another thread with the same question.
http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1687122-motore-speeder-shafts/
Fairway: Titleist 917 F2 13.5* (HZRDUS Black 75g 6.5)
Hybrid: Titleist 818 H2 19* (AD-DI 105X)
Irons: Titleist 716 AP2 4-PW (Nippon Modus3 120)
Wedges: Titleist Wedgeworks SM7 Raw 52F-58K & Taylor Made Hi-Toe 64 (Nippon Modus3 120)
Putter: Odyssey O-Works Black 2W
Any info on c taper lite ?
About the FCM flex system
The FCM system or frequency matching system for shaft flex is a invention from Brunswick Royal Precision, and it is NOT compatible for judgement of any other shafts......Its made to compare Rifle vs Rifle from shaft to shaft, or flex to flex, and the shaft design itself is made for that. The only other shaft on the marked i know who is based on the same judgement system is KBS Tour Parallels, who uses the same tip trim instructions, flex slope and flex chart for judgement.
That means all the other shafts on the marked is NOT really compatible with this system at all, so when we try to judge all shaft on the marked this way, we do them all wrong, and would be almost like we put a beginner on the back tee...he want have a fair chance to show off what he can do, the judgement becomes unfair.
The problem is, that since RIFLE has the same profile for all flexes, so each zone in the shaft is progressively softer or stronger, we dont need to check them for anything else than butt CPM to figure out "who they are"....
Thats NOT the case with "all the other" shafts on the marked, not even a shaft like Dynamic GOLD has the same actual profile zone to zone from R to S or X like Rifle has.
That means, when we only measure butt CPM like the Rifle FCM system is based on, thats the only part of the shaft we get to know, we know nothing about the rest, so unlike RIFLE (or KBS Tour) the return number is NOT a indication of "how strong feel will be" because we have not measured more than a tiny little part of the shaft and still know nothing about the rest.
If the compare we base it all on is uncut shafts, we make this even worse and even less useful, because we never play a shaft to full length, we always cut some of the butt section off. Example A typical players club built to "standard" play length using Dynamic Gold Tapers will need a butt cut down to play length of about 2.25"
Now imagine this scenario...we measured the shafts uncut using the RILFE FCM standard and 2.5" inch clamp like the original FCM standard is, and KBS is still using, and built the clubs to standard play length using DG Tapers.
How much is left of the butt we measured to find the shafts we wanted to use? 2/8" inches is the answer
Do you really think the upper 2/8" of the shaft is so important, that we should have a chart like this as pinned topic? Neither do i.
Next problem with a chart like this, now using shafts cut to play length and built with standard head weight where we use a 5.0 clamp and actually measure 5 inch of the shaft that we would play would be like i wrote above, we dont know anything about the rest of it, so if this is a shaft that will feel stiff or soft, we still dont know, but thats not all, its more to it still, because now e also have to talk flex SLOPE......
As shafts goes shorter from one club to the other, measured BUTT CPM (Cycles pr minute) will go up, but how much is a question of how the designer of the shaft wanted that to be.
RIFLE FCM is designed with a flex slope of 8.6 CPM pr.inch as Standard Flight, and 11.88 as Flighted, so even Rifles need 2 different charts to be judged right, ONLY their #6 iron has the same butt CPM, and that means no matter other shaft model we try to compare to Rifles chart, "they want fit", but that DOES NOT mean that the shaft is "off flex", because a shaft like DG X100 Tapers has a design that when we measure butt CPM ends up with a slope above 10 CPM pr inch, so its the chart on the wall from Rifle who is wrong, not the shaft, its designed to be that way.
The last issue is, that i no longer run my shop, so i no longer has access to shafts like i did, and need the help of others or collect them from the net or other users.
The question is, when you know all what i told you now ( ive done that several times in this tread), and say the chart was made to help advanced club makers, NOT to help players to find the right shaft or shaft flex, do you really feel the need for a update?
Titleist 910F 15 | Matrix Ozik WhiteTie 7X3 X
Titleist 910H 21 | Matrix Ozik WhiteTie HX3 X
Srixon U65 [20] | Z965 [4-P] Steelfiber i110cw S HS
RTX-3 RAW 52,56,60
Byron Morgan 615
I'd like to know too. I'm guessing DG105 is lower launch and spin, and probably a more boardy feel.
Cal XR16 4W w/Speeder Evo 565 R
Ping G30 22* Hybrid Stock R
Ping i15 5-W KBS R+
Titleist 50* F Grind KBS 115 W
Ping Glide SS 54* w/KBS Hi Rev R
Ping Glide SS 58* CFS Wedge
Odyssey Ti Hot #2
did you read the post just above here? it answer the question you ask
http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/496072-new-and-improved-shaft-chart/page__st__780#entry18340002
I missed the reference to KBS Tours; they also have a trimming guide for the parallel C-Taper & C-Taper Lites' on their site: http://kbsgolfshafts.com/
I think a lot of us on the forum regarded the shaft chart as gospel, I have not invested in a meter but the chart got us in the ball park of what we were trying to achieve. As my guy said, " leave the club building to me"
Very respectfully, BD
Cal XR16 4W w/Speeder Evo 565 R
Ping G30 22* Hybrid Stock R
Ping i15 5-W KBS R+
Titleist 50* F Grind KBS 115 W
Ping Glide SS 54* w/KBS Hi Rev R
Ping Glide SS 58* CFS Wedge
Odyssey Ti Hot #2
Titleist 917F2 16.5 w/ Aldila Rogue Black 70S
Titleist 816H1 20* and 24* w/ Accra FX200H M4
Titleist AP2 718 4-PW w/ DG AMT Tour White S300
Vokey SM7 50F.8, 54S.10, 58D.12 S200
Bettinardi Kuchar Model 1 Armlock 42"
Pro V1x
Callaway Rogue SZ 15 Tour Issue + Tour AD IZ 7x.
Callaway Rogue 19 Tour Issue + Tour AD IZ 8s.
Adams Pro 23 Tour Issue + Tour AD UT95x
Adams DHY Pro 27 + Irod 105x.
Adams XTD Forged Tour Issue 6i - GW + Recoil Prototype 125F5.
Adams XTD Forged SW/LW + KBS Hi-Rev x.
SeeMore SB1, Accra FX300, Garsen.
Playing X100s now but they feel a little firm, S300 are a little soft. Have an S400 in my 50* and love everything about the way that club performs and feels.... I guess I could HS S300 in my irons but could it be a fair assumption that the S400 may be a better move? 6i speed is around 85 mph, mostly smooth transition and tempo.
Also like the 5.5 flighted shafts, but they do feel a little light...
Mizuno ST180 Tensei blue 15*
Titleist 816 H1 19* Fujikura Motore 8.8 TS
Bridgestone J15 CB X100
Titleist SM5 50/56
Odyssey PT2
Srixon Z Star XV
Where does the S200 fall on this chart? 5.5 fcm? Thank you...
I’m trying to gain some launch and spin in long irons in KBS Tour S. Spin rate in 6i only 4500. Carry 175. Thinking of soft stepping 4,5 and 6 but leaving the others the same. Any matching issues with flex?
Thanks,
Ken
One step (soft or hard) is unlikely to give any noticeable change in ball flight, it's only really a very subtle tweak to the feel only. Even x2 isn't likely to do much for the ball flight. But that means for most wont cause any issues matching feel between the clubs that are stepped and the ones that are not.
If you really want to gain some launch and spin, just have the lofts bent weaker. But keep in mind that those number may not be indicative of real life performance if they were obtained with an LM hitting off of a mat. Some mats can scrub as much as 2k off the spin rates.
This was not a good tread to post a question like that....but.
Shafts is designed to a certain flex slope, and they are different from shaft to shaft, so when we open that can of worms called flex, its a question of how we judge it, and how it works for THIS player...
Example. Rifle has a slope of 4.25 between clubs and DG X100 is above 5 cpms.
If we used lets say the #6 iron, we have lots of examples where measured flex on the #6 becomes the same, but because of shaft design either goes stronger or softer both ways vs the other.vDG will look soft in the long end compared to Rifle and stronger in the short end, because the design of the shaft makes them to become like that, and since KBS and RIfle is made the same way, we have a little room for manipulation of flex slope, like we see on the NEW FLIGHTED version with a slipe of almost 6 CPM from club to club. (softer long irons than standard, end stronger short irons than standard (progressive), thats how the NEW Rifle Flighted is made)
When you mix a set, some strait in, some softstepped we mess up the original slope a bit, but if its good or bad is a question about how that works for YOU, but if feel and dispersion is good now DONT mess with them, use static lofts to get ball flight right. All a shaft can do, is bend more or less, and by that add more loft or reduce loft at impact, so if we go softer, by the book that means a tad more forward shaft bending and a tad more loft at impact, but we get to the same by a loft tweak.
Some players seems to believe that shafts can overrule loft tweak, but thats wrong, so if the shaft ADDS loft, we get the same "new distance" as we get by changing static loft the same...loft is loft, the ball has no clue where it comes from, so if its s shaft bending a little more, or lofts is set a little weaker, its the same we get as ball flight, if loft at impact is the same
So, dont fix it if it aint broken, if its only a ball flight question, and shaft weight, feel and dispersion is good, KEEP the shafts as they are, and tweak static lofts to get the ball flight you want, its faster and cheaper and ALWAYS works, we dont really know what changes a SS1 gives, but its small. Its first at SS2 we get to really se a difference