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New and Improved Shaft Chart

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  • ReidThompsonReidThompson Members  26WRX Points: 58Posts: 26 Bunkers
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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11624WRX Points: 2,293Posts: 11,624 Titanium Tees
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    I found butt CPM for HZRDUS 5.5 (Black) its FCM 5.5 or 259 CPM at 45.00" (but thats a coincident with flex labels, they might be close, but hardly ever spot on like this)

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  • mitchdocmitchdoc Members  459WRX Points: 85Posts: 459 Greens
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    I'm looking at forged tec irons with the $taper lite. Any info on how it profiles. My other options in same weight range would be KBS tour 105, dg105 or modus 105.

    Want good dispersion but still decent soon and height.


    For reference my 7 iron swingspeed is low to mid 80s iirc.

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11624WRX Points: 2,293Posts: 11,624 Titanium Tees
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    EI profile dont tell anything about dispersion, thats a question of how your and your swing respond to the actual shaft profile, nothing else, so you will have to try off the options you have on that list, no paper specs can give you the answer.

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  • mitchdocmitchdoc Members  459WRX Points: 85Posts: 459 Greens
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    Unfortunately the pandemic is preventing me from demoing. I am trying to decide between the $taper lite,modus 105, dg105.

    Not sure how they all compare and if one pays stiffer than another. I am now a singer than her so prefer smoother shaft.

    Nspro980gh in my srixons is such a shaft but it's a bit too soft and dispersion not as tight as I like.

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  • CasualLieCasualLie Do Woodchucks Chuck Wood? Members  1719WRX Points: 304Posts: 1,719 Platinum Tees
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    Which iron shafts are counter balanced? Anything? I play a Tensei PO 70TX and want to replicate that same feel in irons. I've been searching around for a clearer answer to no avail. It seems iron shafts really can't be counter balanced? Is that true? You need weights at the butt end and heavier heads with lighter shaft???

    Maybe someone can point me in a general direction to an iron series of shafts that are more counter balanced?

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11624WRX Points: 2,293Posts: 11,624 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Jun 20, 2020 7:35pm #908

    It does not work like that, a higher BP lowers SW value to be able to play LONGER clubs, (driver), or to lower feel of head weight, and all MCA say is that Tensei Orange has a high BP, they dont even tell where.

    There is lots of Iron shafts that has a higher BP than the middle, but non of them is like CW balanced wood shafts where we can see a drop of up to 5 SWP, and it makes no sense for irons either, unless we wanted them WAY longer than standard and did not have other options to get SW value down.

    CW balanced shafts is not really "butt heavy", but TIP LIGHT, and KBS models is typical in that category, and for the same reason they are weak tip side, and known to bend at the hosel top...but if thats what you want, look at KBS TOUR - TOUR V, and S Taper in the wanted weight and flex range. Those are the KBS models with the highest BP. (51.8% up from the tip - the 39.00" shaft has the BP at 20.250" as example)

    NIPPON PRO MODUS 125 and 130 also have a BP higher than the middle, as compare the 125 - 39.00" has the BP at 20.000" the 130 at 20.125"

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  • zmosnotzmosnot Members  75WRX Points: 61Posts: 75 Fairways
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    very good work....excellent info

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  • CasualLieCasualLie Do Woodchucks Chuck Wood? Members  1719WRX Points: 304Posts: 1,719 Platinum Tees
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    Thank you Howard, much appreciated.

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  • SebastianQuinngSebastianQuinng Members  20WRX Points: -18Posts: 20 Bunkers
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    I didn't know about it i general...

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11624WRX Points: 2,293Posts: 11,624 Titanium Tees
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    You dont seem to know about forum etiquette either, SPAMMING this forum with tons of posts without any content at all, STOP IT NOW.

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  • winged_victorywinged_victory Members  8WRX Points: 7Posts: 8 Starters
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    First day on here, sorry if this isn't the right place to post but I could really use some help.

    I was fitted for a full bag and the shaft they recommended for my irons were "True Temper Rifle Parallel, 6.0"

    I have a buddy who can get me some great discounts on clubs (almost 50% of what the fitter quoted me) and i'd like to take advantage of that, but I cannot find these shafts they recommended to me.

    After doing some digging, it seems like it might only be available to club fitters from some True Temper performance center.. how convenient.

    I know there's a Project X Rifle, but from my fitting the label is completely different and it seems like the profiles are not too similar to the Rifle 6.0 they're recommending, which admittedly I did hit very well.

    The labels I hit that day look like this: 


    Are there any shafts that come close to what I'm looking for, that are readily available?

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  • JJgolfwrxJJgolfwrx Members  50WRX Points: 30Posts: 50 Bunkers
    Joined:  edited Jul 15, 2020 10:32pm #914

    That looks like the old Rifle Flighted Shaft, not to be confused with the Project X Rifle Shaft that is owned by True Temper Sports. That shaft was designed by Joe and Kim Braley. Kim is now the head designer of a company you may know "KBS." As you stated before those shafts are not the same. Here's a link via golfshaftreviews.com: https://www.golfshaftreviews.info/rifle-parallel-iron-shaft-review/. It explains all you need to know very well.

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  • winged_victorywinged_victory Members  8WRX Points: 7Posts: 8 Starters
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    @JJgolfwrx thanks, i'm not sure if its the exact shaft in the picture.. that's just one I pulled from an ebay listing as an example but appreciate the link!

    are there any KBS shafts that would come close to this? my research kind of brought me to KBS Tour/C-Taper, Taper Lite?

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  • golfmj228golfmj228 GolfMJ Members  425WRX Points: 89Handicap: 6Posts: 425 Greens
    Joined:  edited Jul 15, 2020 11:58pm #916

    C-Taper/C-Taper Lites should have a much lower ball flight (more similar to Dynamic Gold/Project X if your familiar with those, I think there even lower though). I play C-Tapers and love then buy that flight is not for everyone, Good Luck in your search!

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  • JJgolfwrxJJgolfwrx Members  50WRX Points: 30Posts: 50 Bunkers
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    @winged_victory No worries. I am not very knowledgeable on this shaft in particular because it is not available in the databases I use. It been discontinued by most if not all the OEMS to my knowledge. Howard would be more knowledgeable on this topic.

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11624WRX Points: 2,293Posts: 11,624 Titanium Tees
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    ive replied here

    https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/19568954/#Comment_19568954

    RIFLE FCM series is progressive in ball flight, so the stronger it is, the lower is launch. 6.0 is about "Mid" launch, and closest KBS model is KBS Tour S flex, but it still a bit different than RIFLE FCM

    C-Tapers is NOT a good option to Rifle FCM, C-Taper is more like Rifle Project X

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  • winged_victorywinged_victory Members  8WRX Points: 7Posts: 8 Starters
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    awesome, thanks! in what ways is the KBS Tour different? Still doing some research and it looks like Project X LZ might be the right alternative?

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11624WRX Points: 2,293Posts: 11,624 Titanium Tees
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    Feel and ball flight (Rifle FCM vs KBS Tour), the EI profile is not that similar,(looks very different actually) but both is relative stiff at mid and butt, while LZ is a butt soft model, so with Modus 120 (modus 120 is like a extreme model of LZ) ,so they might all be options, feel preferences and how it works is what matters. Many of those who now plays KBS Tour comes from RIFLE FCM, not because they are "the same", but feel and ball flight has made the transition easy for this players.

    What other shafts did you get to try during that fitting?

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  • winged_victorywinged_victory Members  8WRX Points: 7Posts: 8 Starters
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    I thought the LZ was stiff butt/tip with softer mid? that's the general profile that i'm looking for anyway.. for example I was fitted into aventus blue for my driver shaft.

    i'm overall looking for a mid trajectory shaft (i have a swing that produces a pretty high ball flight) that's still fairly light, and butt/tips very stable.

    i frankly don't remember all of the shafts that i tried, i barely knew about all of these different shaft options before heading into my fitting unfortunately :(

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11624WRX Points: 2,293Posts: 11,624 Titanium Tees
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    But if RIFLE FCM 6.0 was the best, why do you look for something else?

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  • winged_victorywinged_victory Members  8WRX Points: 7Posts: 8 Starters
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    It's extremely expensive to buy through my fitter (truespec) and I have a friend who can get me a discount if I buy clubs through him. I'd go with rifle (what is FCM by the way? just the name?) but then it seems like I have to go through my fitter. I'd be saving $7-800 so it's causing me to look for other shafts.

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11624WRX Points: 2,293Posts: 11,624 Titanium Tees
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    FCM is short for Frequency Coefficient Matched, so they are flex matched to a numerical system for flex rating who was invented by Brunswick / Royal Precision.

    Flex is measured with special equipment for butt flex, and will match this numbers for Cycles pr minute (the chart below)...This tread is ALL ABOUT that, the chart on page 1, is NON RIFLE FCM models, rated by the same FCM system. so shafts you find as FCM 6.0 has the same strength as butt flex as RIFLE FCM 6.0, but the rest of the shaft might be quite different, so its not very useful for compare of different models. We can use this system to find a fast stating point for testing of any other club in the bag, if we have the FCM rating, like this chart shows, but like all other charts, its not worth more than a static fitting is, testing of the actual model is always needed, and thats also what you have to do no matter how many suggestions you might get.

    So if you look at this chart, and the line marked 6, you get to see the butt CPM for shafts thats rated as FCM 6.0 in this flex system (CPM is short for Cycles Per Minute), and 6.0 is in general considered to be S+, but its no standard for for how strong S+ is as cycles pr minute like the FCM system has a chart like this one.


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  • Deano802Deano802 Members  140WRX Points: 58Posts: 140 Fairways
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    Hi sorry if this has been answered already, I did try and search but with no luck.

    i would be interested to know fcm of DG120 S300? been testing them recently and may put them in the bag, flex feels quite uniform through the shaft and also quite stable in tip but still gets ball up, Also tested kbs tour S in same head, better(softer) feel but found less stiffness in tip and Lighter feeling leading to a bit more inconsistency than dg 120.

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11624WRX Points: 2,293Posts: 11,624 Titanium Tees
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    I dont have butt CPM numbers for DG 120, but what are you going to use it for? you have already tried the shafts, and how it feels and works is what matters.

    its most likely lower than KBS Tour S taper tips since it is lower than the standard DG 130 grams models, but i dont have numbers for how much, and if you did read this tread, you would know thatv we cant judge a shafts over all stiffness or how it feels by butt CPM alone, its useless for that, and your own experience with KBS Tour S vs DG 120 S tells the same story. Even with softer butt section, DG S120 would feel stiffer due to its stiffer tip section since D120 is designed to play just like the standard model, only 10 grams lighter. To make that happen, we need a slightly stiffer tip section or a much softer butt section on 120 vs the 130 version, so feed back from DG 120 players say tip side feels stronger. (it does not have to be true as numbers, thinner shaft walls and the same flex strength makes a stronger feel, so its most likely only butt section thats softer on 120 to alter tip to butt deflection to keep the same ball flight or as close as can be to 130.)

    120 X vs 130 X version as EI profiles shows a weaker butt section on DG 120, i expect S series to have a similar difference, so measured as butt CPM or FCM only, DG 120 would look weaker than 130, and thats also makes it look weaker than KBS Tour, but over all, thats NOT true, since butt CPM alone is only that, a measurement of the butt section, NOT the rest of the shaft, so its very misleading for compare of different models.


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  • Deano802Deano802 Members  140WRX Points: 58Posts: 140 Fairways
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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11624WRX Points: 2,293Posts: 11,624 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Jul 22, 2020 1:05pm #928

    I did the best i could, and the shaft chart i made 9 years ago is NOT possible to use like many think it is, as a compare of actual flex between different shaft models, its useless for that. We can only use it to find a quick starting point for testing like a static fitting if we play one of those models in that chart and is happy with them, and now wants to find a hybrid or wood shaft. If PROFILE is similar (HIGH, MID or LOW), we can use the GREEN chart you see above here, and find what butt CPM a corresponding wood or hybrid shaft MIGHT have to make it feel about the same as our irons.

    The problem is like you see on the EI profile of X100/130 vs X100/120 that the designer have altered butt CPM to compensate for lower shaft weight, who by itself raise launch a little, so as compensation for that, he keeps mid and tip side like the original, but use a softer butt section to alter "tip to butt deflection ratio", and the more "flat" that ratio is, the lower launch would the profile deliver, so the designer has simply "forced" bend point even higher up on the 120 model vs the 130 to be able to keep the original flight pattern when the shaft comes into the hands of a player.

    As a sum, compare of different models by butt CPM only will fool us bad, since many thinks it represent "the whole shaft" and how stiff it would feel, but thats not true, and you was able to feel that yourself when you compared it to KBS Tour S who had a "softer feel", even with a stiffer butt section, but thats because KBS to have a higher tip to but deflection ratio, so the tip side is "relative softer" on KBS Tour than it is on DG 120.

    We really need the FULL profile like the photo illustration above shows us to be able to see what shaft we have at hand, while FCM or butt CPM is limited to whats right under the grip of the shaft.

    Go by Weight, Feel and Dispersion, and never mind what FCM or flex label that is, BOTH is misleading for compare of different shaft models.

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  • JJgolfwrxJJgolfwrx Members  50WRX Points: 30Posts: 50 Bunkers
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    Howard is correct, the dg120 (397cpm) is lower in cpm than the KBS Tour (416 cpm). Looking at the specs they are they same total weight when cut however (114g), the kbs tour will swingweight about 1.5-2 swing weights lighter. Did you need shafts that are most similar to the KBS Tour as well @Deano802?

    -JJ

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  • Deano802Deano802 Members  140WRX Points: 58Posts: 140 Fairways
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    @Howard_Jones @JJgolfwrx thanks both, I've been playing Shimada Tour Mid 115 R HS from about 5 years now as I was fitted in them and not hit anything else in that time, but worked on my swing and not really happy with them at moment and looking at a new set of irons, so been testing as much as possible, I have figured out my weigh range is 115-120, the shimadas are quite high balance and quite unique to everything else Ive tested light swingweight but quite stiff throughout, the DG120 S300 gives me more feel of the head and weight feels evenly distributed, I feel more bend but tip very stable, ballflight is higher than my current but that could be the different head, KBS tour is higher launching & softer feeling than dg which quite like but head weight is lighter and tip not as stiff so dispersion not as good (my bad shot is over draw), something in between perfect or I will go for the dg, do you know what the modus 120 is like or anything else close? all the other kbs options too confusing!

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11624WRX Points: 2,293Posts: 11,624 Titanium Tees
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    Here is EI profiles of the shafts we talk about here - Modus 120 is kind of a "extreme" version of Project X LZ with even more feel of loading due to the weaker mid/upper tip.


    Here is DG120 again, now with PX LZ and the regular Project X - LZ is simply "curves more" to make that "bending feel", so both LZ 6.0 120 grams and PX 5.5 115 grams is options you might try

    I DONT find the EI profile for SHIMADA TOUR, but if im not mistaking, its the shaft now called OBAN CT after Shimada and Oban started to work together, but dont take my word for that, it could be a totally new model, but since weight is the same as the classic Shimada Tour who is very popular in Asia, i think they made a short cut and just renamed it to brand it as a OBAN product. This OBAN CT is kind of like the classic Project X as profile with a slight difference and more feel of butt bending since the weak butt section is longer than PX is.


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