Sam's guess at Hogan's secret...

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  • nicebutdimnicebutdim Members  596WRX Points: 0Posts: 596
    Joined:  #2702
    <br />
    nicebutdim wrote:
    <br />
    MizunoJoe wrote:
    <br />
    <br />
    With a weight balance of say 45 left 55 right at address, that move will put you more on the left side early on the BS.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Gave it a whirl and first impressions is that this is fantastic advice, so muchos gracias!<br />
    <br />
    With little bits and pieces here and there I feel I'm getting bloody close to nailing and automating this transition, and therefore the optimum elbow and arm path on the downswing (beginning to feel more and more effortless, fluid, consistent and right).......... with a few tweaks to the all important set-up I really am beginning to feel that the right-hip-backing-into-the-target from the top is the SECRET move if there ever was one as it clears my lower body out of the way beautifully for the free ride................. aside from looking bang on to what Hogan does imo.<br />
    <br />
    ............. I'm so close I can taste it. <img src='http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' /><br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Agree with MJ. That's why I asked you to do it before. You WILL fall target wards for sure even if you don't straighten the R leg/knee. Just keeping the R leg angle is enough.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Don't try and steal MJ's thunder! lol<br />
    <br />
    As I said before, I had the basics of the set-up and the right knee function pretty good.............. what he suggested just tweaked my hip alignment and added some micro precision to what I was doing....... just another small layer of automation.
    Posted:
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  • svsvincenzosvsvincenzo Members  1822WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,822
    Joined:  edited Jun 1, 2012 #2703
    nicebutdim wrote:
    <br />
    Don't try and steal MJ's thunder! lol<br />
    <br />
    As I said before, I had the basics of the set-up and the right knee function pretty good.............. what he suggested just tweaked my hip alignment and added some micro precision to what I was doing....... just another small layer of automation.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Don't worry I'm not even trying...lol<br />
    <br />
    MJ, re the R knee straightening, don't you think that will result to an artificial shoulder turn...the R knee unbending/straightening is the one allowing the shoulders to turn more instead of the shoulders trying to turn against the resistance of the hips?<br />
    <br />
    Hogan clearly said in 5L that you should restrain/restrict the hips during the takeaway/BS until the shoulders pulls the hips. I think the R leg straightening from the SnT fame is a compensation for a very limited shoulder turn caused by keeping the weight 55-45 at setup and then increasing the weight incrementally on the left foot as the BS and DS progresses.<br />
    <br />
    So why not just restrain the hips until the shoulder pulls it, keep the R leg angle and the knee flex/bend, and just let the L knee and L heel to be pulled naturally by the shoulders. This way you will fall to the L foot anyway...so the objective of SnT to get the upper and lower center to the left is achieved....but this way you got to get the benefits of the COG/pressures shifting...it helps you get down to elbow plane earlier...problem is, most people will lose the L wrist ****/lag....lol
    Posted:
  • nicebutdimnicebutdim Members  596WRX Points: 0Posts: 596
    Joined:  #2704
    <br />
    nicebutdim wrote:
    <br />
    Don't try and steal MJ's thunder! lol<br />
    <br />
    As I said before, I had the basics of the set-up and the right knee function pretty good.............. what he suggested just tweaked my hip alignment and added some micro precision to what I was doing....... just another small layer of automation.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Don't worry I'm not even trying...lol<br />
    <br />
    MJ, re the R knee straightening, don't you think that will result to an artificial shoulder turn...the R knee unbending/straightening is the one allowing the shoulders to turn more instead of the shoulders trying to turn against the resistance of the hips?<br />
    <br />
    Hogan clearly said in 5L that you should restrain/restrict the hips during the takeaway/BS until the shoulders pulls the hips. I think the R leg straightening from the SnT fame is a compensation for a very limited shoulder turn caused by keeping the weight 55-45 at setup and then increasing the weight incrementally on the left foot as the BS and DS progresses.<br />
    <br />
    So why not just restrain the hips until the shoulder pulls it, keep the R leg angle and the knee flex/bend, and just let the L knee and L heel to be pulled naturally by the shoulders. This way you will fall to the L foot anyway...so the objective of SnT to get the upper and lower center to the left is achieved....but this way you got to get the benefits of the COG/pressures shifting...it helps you get down to elbow plane earlier...problem is, most people will lose the L wrist ****/lag....lol<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    sorry to interject but I think MJ had my weight 45-55 (left-right), as opposed to the 55-44 as proposed by S&T............<br />
    <br />
    though I could be misunderstanding both of you?
    Posted:
  • svsvincenzosvsvincenzo Members  1822WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,822
    Joined:  edited Jun 1, 2012 #2705
    nicebutdim wrote:
    <br />
    <br />
    nicebutdim wrote:
    <br />
    Don't try and steal MJ's thunder! lol<br />
    <br />
    As I said before, I had the basics of the set-up and the right knee function pretty good.............. what he suggested just tweaked my hip alignment and added some micro precision to what I was doing....... just another small layer of automation.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Don't worry I'm not even trying...lol<br />
    <br />
    MJ, re the R knee straightening, don't you think that will result to an artificial shoulder turn...the R knee unbending/straightening is the one allowing the shoulders to turn more instead of the shoulders trying to turn against the resistance of the hips?<br />
    <br />
    Hogan clearly said in 5L that you should restrain/restrict the hips during the takeaway/BS until the shoulders pulls the hips. I think the R leg straightening from the SnT fame is a compensation for a very limited shoulder turn caused by keeping the weight 55-45 at setup and then increasing the weight incrementally on the left foot as the BS and DS progresses.<br />
    <br />
    So why not just restrain the hips until the shoulder pulls it, keep the R leg angle and the knee flex/bend, and just let the L knee and L heel to be pulled naturally by the shoulders. This way you will fall to the L foot anyway...so the objective of SnT to get the upper and lower center to the left is achieved....but this way you got to get the benefits of the COG/pressures shifting...it helps you get down to elbow plane earlier...problem is, most people will lose the L wrist ****/lag....lol<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    sorry to interject but I think MJ had my weight 45-55 (left-right), as opposed to the 55-44 as proposed by S&amp;T............<br />
    <br />
    though I could be misunderstanding both of you?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Yes, that is right. I am just trying to say that SnT incrementally increasing weight on L foot as the swing starts is not Hogan. That is why SnT guys have a limited shoulder turn, they are intentionally keeping and increasing pressure on the L foot. Hogan said let the foot be pulled by the shoulders, not the other way around.<br />
    <br />
    So because of the limited shoulder turn they straighten the R knee to release the R hip and to allow the shoulders to turn more.
    Posted:
  • nicebutdimnicebutdim Members  596WRX Points: 0Posts: 596
    Joined:  #2706
    <br />
    nicebutdim wrote:
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Don't worry I'm not even trying...lol<br />
    <br />
    MJ, re the R knee straightening, don't you think that will result to an artificial shoulder turn...the R knee unbending/straightening is the one allowing the shoulders to turn more instead of the shoulders trying to turn against the resistance of the hips?<br />
    <br />
    Hogan clearly said in 5L that you should restrain/restrict the hips during the takeaway/BS until the shoulders pulls the hips. I think the R leg straightening from the SnT fame is a compensation for a very limited shoulder turn caused by keeping the weight 55-45 at setup and then increasing the weight incrementally on the left foot as the BS and DS progresses.<br />
    <br />
    So why not just restrain the hips until the shoulder pulls it, keep the R leg angle and the knee flex/bend, and just let the L knee and L heel to be pulled naturally by the shoulders. This way you will fall to the L foot anyway...so the objective of SnT to get the upper and lower center to the left is achieved....but this way you got to get the benefits of the COG/pressures shifting...it helps you get down to elbow plane earlier...problem is, most people will lose the L wrist ****/lag....lol<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    sorry to interject but I think MJ had my weight 45-55 (left-right), as opposed to the 55-44 as proposed by S&amp;T............<br />
    <br />
    though I could be misunderstanding both of you?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Yes, that is right. I am just trying to say that SnT incrementally increasing weight on L foot as the swing starts is not Hogan. That is why SnT guys have a limited shoulder turn, they are intentionally keeping and increasing pressure on the L foot. Hogan said let the foot be pulled by the shoulders, not the other way around.<br />
    <br />
    So because of the limited shoulder turn they straighten the R knee to release the R hip and to allow the shoulders to turn more.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Ok gotcha!<br />
    <br />
    I personally find S&T to promote an somewhat unnatural motion that doesn't meld with the ideal athletic sequencing.<br />
    <br />
    If I was to stand in a golf set-up, and then made a powerful low side-arm throw, I would wind up using the right shoulder and hip/leg............... the importance of the left leg comes later.<br />
    <br />
    I get why people choose to use S&T and it might work for them in the short-term, however I personally wouldn't let it near my own swing as I see it as quick fix solution that forces you to make too many compensations.
    Posted:
  • svsvincenzosvsvincenzo Members  1822WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,822
    Joined:  #2707
    nicebutdim wrote:
    <br />
    <br />
    Ok gotcha!<br />
    <br />
    I personally find S&T to promote an somewhat unnatural motion that doesn't meld with the ideal athletic sequencing.<br />
    <br />
    If I was to stand in a golf set-up, and then made a powerful low side-arm throw, I would wind up using the right shoulder and hip/leg............... the importance of the left leg comes later.<br />
    <br />
    I get why people choose to use S&T and it might work for them in the short-term, however I personally wouldn't let it near my own swing as I see it as quick fix solution that forces you to make too many compensations.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Well, it easy to nitpick on every method out there..but let me say this...SnT has given out information and basic principles about the golf swing that are true and has never been given out there...it paves the way for a much much better understanding of the golf swing...its just a different way to skin the cat...IMO its just the MORAD pattern for hitting wedges, short irons and knockdowns...
    Posted:
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  • svsvincenzosvsvincenzo Members  1822WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,822
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    Just to be clear...I agree with everything SnT has to say...except the weight left and weight continuing to increase left, and the slowing down the shoulder whipping the whip move...I'm for COG shifts and giving it all you've got...
    Posted:
  • nicebutdimnicebutdim Members  596WRX Points: 0Posts: 596
    Joined:  #2709
    <br />
    Just to be clear...I agree with everything SnT has to say...except the weight left and weight continuing to increase left, and the slowing down the shoulder whipping the whip move...I'm for COG shifts and giving it all you've got...<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Hi there,<br />
    <br />
    Last post for a while I think and gotta go for lunch..................... I understand what you're saying about the S&T approach working for a lot of people and giving them greater understanding of the game (any swing theory that is proved to 'work' will do that').............. but like you I personally think that having the weight stacked to the left is sub-optimal.<br />
    <br />
    I think you are probably right that its an adapted technique for the short game, which is again why I think it doesn't promote ideal athletic sequencing when looking for power in the long game............ I mean I haven't seen any Long driving champs Stacking over their left leg, and nor did Snead or Hogan do this.<br />
    <br />
    I fully understand why someone who doesn't have lots of time to figure out the game would like a simple'ish concept that will give them more consistent ball-striking........... I just can't understand why a pro with the talent and time they have would go down this route........... <br />
    <br />
    Not dissing it really, just saying that for me there are better (but perhaps more difficult) ways to swing the club consistently than stacking on the left side, and I hope I'm doing it already!
    Posted:
  • svsvincenzosvsvincenzo Members  1822WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,822
    Joined:  #2710
    nicebutdim wrote:
    <br />
    <br />
    Just to be clear...I agree with everything SnT has to say...except the weight left and weight continuing to increase left, and the slowing down the shoulder whipping the whip move...I'm for COG shifts and giving it all you've got...<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Hi there,<br />
    <br />
    Last post for a while I think and gotta go for lunch..................... I understand what you're saying about the S&T approach working for a lot of people and giving them greater understanding of the game (any swing theory that is proved to 'work' will do that').............. but like you I personally think that having the weight stacked to the left is sub-optimal.<br />
    <br />
    I think you are probably right that its an adapted technique for the short game, which is again why I think it doesn't promote ideal athletic sequencing when looking for power in the long game............ I mean I haven't seen any Long driving champs Stacking over their left leg, and nor did Snead or Hogan do this.<br />
    <br />
    I fully understand why someone who doesn't have lots of time to figure out the game would like a simple'ish concept that will give them more consistent ball-striking........... I just can't understand why a pro with the talent and time they have would go down this route...........<br />
    <br />
    Not dissing it really, just saying that for me there are better (but perhaps more difficult) ways to swing the club consistently than stacking on the left side, and I hope I'm doing it already!<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    But don't diss it out completely. Just adjust a couple in there and its pretty much the best IMO...
    Posted:
  • MizunoJoeMizunoJoe Members  1000WRX Points: 1Posts: 1,000 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #2711
    <br />
    nicebutdim wrote:
    <br />
    Don't try and steal MJ's thunder! lol<br />
    <br />
    As I said before, I had the basics of the set-up and the right knee function pretty good.............. what he suggested just tweaked my hip alignment and added some micro precision to what I was doing....... just another small layer of automation.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Don't worry I'm not even trying...lol<br />
    <br />
    MJ, re the R knee straightening, don't you think that will result to an artificial shoulder turn...the R knee unbending/straightening is the one allowing the shoulders to turn more instead of the shoulders trying to turn against the resistance of the hips?<br />
    <br />
    Hogan clearly said in 5L that you should restrain/restrict the hips during the takeaway/BS until the shoulders pulls the hips. I think the R leg straightening from the SnT fame is a compensation for a very limited shoulder turn caused by keeping the weight 55-45 at setup and then increasing the weight incrementally on the left foot as the BS and DS progresses.<br />
    <br />
    So why not just restrain the hips until the shoulder pulls it, keep the R leg angle and the knee flex/bend, and just let the L knee and L heel to be pulled naturally by the shoulders. This way you will fall to the L foot anyway...so the objective of SnT to get the upper and lower center to the left is achieved....but this way you got to get the benefits of the COG/pressures shifting...it helps you get down to elbow plane earlier...problem is, most people will lose the L wrist ****/lag....lol<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    No, it facilitates the hip turn which allows me to make the deepest shoulder turn possible - I'm starting the BS with the right shoulder, getting it in back of my right heel - a 90+ deg shoulder turn with a 45-55 deg hip turn and plenty of resistance between the shoulders and hips. Max shoulder turn in order to open up the triangle as much as possible for the DS. My shoulder turn on the BS is flatter than Hogan's and I cup the left wrist for more wristc0ck and to keep the club from getting too flat and behind me. And the 45-55 weight distribution is 45 front and 55 back - no S n T - nicebd read it correctly.
    Posted:
  • svsvincenzosvsvincenzo Members  1822WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,822
    Joined:  #2712
    MizunoJoe wrote:
    <br />
    <br />
    nicebutdim wrote:
    <br />
    Don't try and steal MJ's thunder! lol<br />
    <br />
    As I said before, I had the basics of the set-up and the right knee function pretty good.............. what he suggested just tweaked my hip alignment and added some micro precision to what I was doing....... just another small layer of automation.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Don't worry I'm not even trying...lol<br />
    <br />
    MJ, re the R knee straightening, don't you think that will result to an artificial shoulder turn...the R knee unbending/straightening is the one allowing the shoulders to turn more instead of the shoulders trying to turn against the resistance of the hips?<br />
    <br />
    Hogan clearly said in 5L that you should restrain/restrict the hips during the takeaway/BS until the shoulders pulls the hips. I think the R leg straightening from the SnT fame is a compensation for a very limited shoulder turn caused by keeping the weight 55-45 at setup and then increasing the weight incrementally on the left foot as the BS and DS progresses.<br />
    <br />
    So why not just restrain the hips until the shoulder pulls it, keep the R leg angle and the knee flex/bend, and just let the L knee and L heel to be pulled naturally by the shoulders. This way you will fall to the L foot anyway...so the objective of SnT to get the upper and lower center to the left is achieved....but this way you got to get the benefits of the COG/pressures shifting...it helps you get down to elbow plane earlier...problem is, most people will lose the L wrist ****/lag....lol<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    No, it facilitates the hip turn which allows me to make the deepest shoulder turn possible - I'm starting the BS with the right shoulder, getting it in back of my right heel - a 90+ deg shoulder turn with a 45-55 deg hip turn and plenty of resistance between the shoulders and hips. Max shoulder turn in order to open up the triangle as much as possible for the DS. My shoulder turn on the BS is flatter than Hogan's and I cup the left wrist for more wristc0ck and to keep the club from getting too flat and behind me. And the 45-55 weight distribution is 45 front and 55 back - no S n T - nicebd read it correctly.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Yeah, it produces more shoulder turn. Same thing in the DS, L leg straightening produces/aids more shoulder turn. That's why TW busted his knee.<br />
    <br />
    But is that R leg straightening Hogan, IYHO?
    Posted:
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  • MizunoJoeMizunoJoe Members  1000WRX Points: 1Posts: 1,000 Platinum Tees
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    I doesn't look like it straightens at all to me, which makes sense because his shoulders are turning steeper on the glass pane. If I tried to keep it bent like Hogan, I'd need a right hip replacement sooner than later.
    Posted:
  • svsvincenzosvsvincenzo Members  1822WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,822
    Joined:  #2714
    MizunoJoe wrote:
    <br />
    I doesn't look like it straightens at all to me, which makes sense because his shoulders are turning steeper on the glass pane. If I tried to keep it bent like Hogan, I'd need a right hip replacement sooner than later.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Yeah, I agree.<br />
    <br />
    What happens to your swing if you do that that Hogan does (shoulders turning steeper on the glass plane)? Why not do it as well? You'll be able to turn your shoulders more this time because the R side will not be bending like what you're doing...
    Posted:
  • MizunoJoeMizunoJoe Members  1000WRX Points: 1Posts: 1,000 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #2715
    <br />
    MizunoJoe wrote:
    <br />
    I doesn't look like it straightens at all to me, which makes sense because his shoulders are turning steeper on the glass pane. If I tried to keep it bent like Hogan, I'd need a right hip replacement sooner than later.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Yeah, I agree.<br />
    <br />
    What happens to your swing if you do that that Hogan does (shoulders turning steeper on the glass plane)? Why not do it as well? You'll be able to turn your shoulders more this time because the R side will not be bending like what you're doing...<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I don't follow - I can turn much farther with a flatter shoulder turn. What right side bending?
    Posted:
  • svsvincenzosvsvincenzo Members  1822WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,822
    Joined:  edited Jun 4, 2012 #2716
    MizunoJoe wrote:
    <br />
    <br />
    MizunoJoe wrote:
    <br />
    I doesn't look like it straightens at all to me, which makes sense because his shoulders are turning steeper on the glass pane. If I tried to keep it bent like Hogan, I'd need a right hip replacement sooner than later.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Yeah, I agree.<br />
    <br />
    What happens to your swing if you do that that Hogan does (shoulders turning steeper on the glass plane)? Why not do it as well? You'll be able to turn your shoulders more this time because the R side will not be bending like what you're doing...<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I don't follow - I can turn much farther with a flatter shoulder turn. What right side bending?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    If you turn your shoulders flat in BS, your R side will bend inwards, which makes it harder to turn the shoulders because the R leg and hip are essentially unadjustable/fixed. The R hip sorta gets in the way of the R shoulder. That's why you have to straighten the R leg/knee--to adjust or move the R hip. OTOH, if you turn the shoulders upright on the Hogan plane, your L side will be the side of your body bending, which it could do so without hindrance because your L knee and hip is adjustable to make room for the L shoulder going down and L side bending. The R side doesn't have to bend, it just sorta remain straight during the BS, so no restriction on the shoulder turn. Also, in transition, there's room or flexibility to allow the R shoulder to get down and crunch/bend the R side in preparation for its necessity in DS to impact. This way you can turn your shoulders more in BS, and you can turn them faster in DS without getting a high R shoulder that forces you to release low and left and thus bend the base plane line to the left.
    Posted:
  • MizunoJoeMizunoJoe Members  1000WRX Points: 1Posts: 1,000 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #2717
    <br />
    Also, in transition, there's room or flexibility to allow the R shoulder to get down and crunch/bend the R side in preparation for its necessity in DS to impact. This way you can turn your shoulders more in BS, and you can turn them faster in DS without getting a high R shoulder that forces you to release low and left and thus bend the base plane line to the left.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    You can drive the right shoulder down plane from the deep flatter position and not bend the plane line - this is called the turned shoulder plane in TGM.
    Posted:
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  • svsvincenzosvsvincenzo Members  1822WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,822
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    MizunoJoe wrote:
    <br />
    <br />
    Also, in transition, there's room or flexibility to allow the R shoulder to get down and crunch/bend the R side in preparation for its necessity in DS to impact. This way you can turn your shoulders more in BS, and you can turn them faster in DS without getting a high R shoulder that forces you to release low and left and thus bend the base plane line to the left.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    You can drive the right shoulder down plane from the deep flatter position and not bend the plane line - this is called the turned shoulder plane in TGM.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    By bending the plane line with a high R shoulder or flat shoulder turn I meant during Release and Impact and beyond, not Transition and Downstroke.
    Posted:
  • tembolo1284tembolo1284 Boom Boom Banned  20715WRX Points: 1Handicap: BeefPosts: 20,715 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #2719
    So what do we think about all this in the end?
    Posted:
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