Lets build a Hogan Spec club...

OK - so it is always going to involve a number of assumptions, guesses etc...any one of which might be open to 30 forum pages of debate... so please keep crtitique short and pithy! :)

I will rank the quality of evidence for each assumption (in the style of "evidence based medicine" ranking of data) eg:

Level 1 = Known major winning set of Hogan clubs which has been blueprinted, measured etc by a global clubfitting guru with the results being confirmed by at least one other global clubfitting guru

Level 2 = Hogan's own hand written club specs on paper but without any club data to confirm (would accept Gene Sheeley's hand written notes too)

Level 3 = A notable pro or clubfitter who has handled definite Hogan clubs and made subjective assessment (but not objective measurements)

Level 4 = A non-pro who has commented on Hogan clubs but not made measurements

etc (or something like that...you get the drift ...)

You can see that most of the comments on Hogan's iron specs are in the Level 3/4 category... anecdotal evidence at best...so hard to prove one way or another...

I would love to get level 1 evidence of what he was really playing because it sounds so different from the style of clubs most people are fitted for nowadays...

So here goes

Assumptions:

1. Hogan clubs had a high dead-weight (evidence level 3 and 4)

2. Hogan clubs head a relatively "normal swing weight" (level 2-3 here... I am taking Jody Vasquez specs - in Afternoons with Mr Hogan - as real)

3. Iron head weights were similar to those of irons you could buy from his company (mega assumption (level 99) but you see some Powerthrust irons in photos with Ben playing occasionally (without excess lead tape) and Jody say that Hogan played '62 Powerthrust irons.

4. Shaft weight was heavy ( at least an X300 raw weight) (level 3)

5. Counterbalanced as required to get the relatively normal swing weights (level 4)

6. The swing weight calculator from (see bottom right corner of webpage) :

http://www.myostrichgolf.com/

is reasonably accurate... it is the only one I have...

7.This swing weight estimator works...

http://www.leaderboard.com/SWINGWEIGHT

So:

- the weight of the 5 iron 1962 Powertrhust iron I have is 268 grams

- X300 raw shaft weight is 134 grams (taper tip as per website):

http://www.truetempe...1&products_id=2

- Grip weight about 50 grams (big guess as I have no idea what leather grip weighs)

- 5 iron shaft length 38 inches (from Jody Vasquez book) (SEE EDIT AT BOTTOM)

feed that into that swing weight calculator from assumption 6. (without tip or butt weight) and it gives you SW = D7.4

This is the sort of SW that Lag Erickson is playing and advocates for his teaching... certainly fits with the sense of heaviness most people describe...but doesn't fit with Jody Vasquez comments or with reports about Knudson (who was heavily influenced by Hogan) using heavy but normal swing weight clubs....see Norm Moote interview with Ralph Perez (around 12 minutes ...he accidently muddles swingweight and dead weight but he is quite specific):

http://www.youtube.c...n_order&list=UL

If you add 32 grams in the butt ...then you have a D1 swing weight, a dead weight of 468 grams.... it feels really heavy and yet seems to have a "normal SW"....

I have not built it yet ...when I do I may have to setttle for X100 sinc e not sure if I have seen X300 around....

I have done an experiment with an old Hogan Precision 4 iron (rings on Hosel, True temper rocket shaft and old leather grip)

With 30 grams added to butt....it comes out as D0 and dead weight 467g. not hit it yet in this form....but feels heavy!

Interesting that by adding between 25 -30 grams butt weight to standard Hogan spec irons you get very close to Vasquez version of Hogan specs....

Comments??

Remember I am not club-builder...I can rip off heads and grips ...refit and glue etc... but no swingweight scale... my butt weighting amounts to strapping 20 pence pieces to the butt end of club...

Hope that some of the real clubbuilders can take over. Thanks.

EDIT :Sorry Hogan 5 iron was 37.5 inches.....

Maybe an expert can add some accuracy??

For comparison:

Hogan Powerthrust 1962 = 268 grams (also 259 grams for my other 5 iron)

Hogan Bounce sole plus 1 = 259 grams

Hogan Apex 1972 - 258 grams

Hogan IPT = 266 grams

Titleist 990 DCI = 258 grams

Mizuno TP9 - 255 grams

Maxfli Australian Blade (newest version??) = 256 grams

Srixon I-302 = 252 grams

So if you are thinking about using a modern 5 iron head to create a Hogan spec club.... you going to have to load up about 10-15 grams to the head....and then 30 grams to the butt...

Makes you think....

I think the length of the 5iron is long. Where did you get 37.5?

Andrisani: says 43.5 inch 3 wood,

Sampson says he hit Hogan's 3 wood and one iron: "the rough textured cord grips are significantly oversized and turned slightly counterclockwise. The heads are very heavy, with two degree flat lies that remind you of hockey sticks."

He quotes Gene Sheely: "Hogan's driver was forty-two and seven-eighths inches long and stiff as a goddamn pole. . . Very big block, heavy. Eleven degrees bulge, twelve degrees roll. He went to a forty-four-inch driver after 1967."

In power golf, hogan says his driver was 14 ounces.

His one iron from Merion fame was estimated from a photo to have a 51 degree lie angle.

I will measure and weigh the experimental precision irons and woods I have and post the specs. The woods are the earliest examples I have seen with hand engraved numbers and no marks on the soleplates.

Hogan Experimental early precision driver 14 1/4 oz, D1 SW, 43 1/8" length (measured to the end of the butt cap using a Mitchell Club length ruler, 12" long calfskin leather wrapped grip, Rocket Tour shaft.

Hogan Experimental precision (long hosel w/crescents) 3 iron, D1 SW, 38 1/4" length, 12" calfskin leather wrap grip, 15 5/8 oz, 20.5* loft, 59* lie angle.

I know two different guys that have held Hogans' clubs. Both said that they were very heavy (didn't know the swing weight) and that there was a very big reminder rib at about 5:30PM. So I was very surprised by the SW's listed in Vasquez' book. Seems like someone here must be a Shady Oaks member and can get those things on the scale!

Interesting that the two best ballstrikers used very heavy clubs.Moe's driver was even heavier at 16 ounces.That is almost double the weight of todays drivers.

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1317088184' post='3593299']
I know two different guys that have held Hogans' clubs. Both said that they were very heavy (didn't know the swing weight) and that there was a very big reminder rib at about 5:30PM. So I was very surprised by the SW's listed in Vasquez' book. Seems like someone here must be a Shady Oaks member and can get those things on the scale!
[/quote]

Yes, that makes me speculate about the possibility he used counterweights.

PowerGolf talks about the moments of inertia being measured on Bobby Jones' clubs, so it would not surprise me if Hogan tinkered with that.

Interesting topic. I think you're on the right track with the heavier forgings. The leather grips might weigh a little more than 50g, not sure though. Don't forget flat lies!

You can get X300s at the link below. They have .355 and .370 versions.

http://www.golfworks.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_DGI

I got one to test in a 6 iron and found it to be quite a nice shaft and basically the heaviest you can get. Weren't there X500s back in the day?

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1317084454' post='3593135']
I think the length of the 5iron is long. Where did you get 37.5?
[/quote]

Admittedly not a level 1 or 2 source... but it is in Jody Vasquez's book at 37.5 inches...

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1317088184' post='3593299']
I know two different guys that have held Hogans' clubs. Both said that they were very heavy (didn't know the swing weight) and that there was a very big reminder rib at about 5:30PM. So I was very surprised by the SW's listed in Vasquez' book. Seems like someone here must be a Shady Oaks member and can get those things on the scale!
[/quote]

Dead weight and swing weight scales... that would tell us the most... I agree with Drew that he probably counterbalanced... in which Jody Vasquez can be right ...and so too the guys you know who held the clubs...

Same goes for any clubs from Moe Norman and George Knudson... if anyone has access to those then maybe get them measured?

[quote name='sajohnson' timestamp='1317090282' post='3593397']
Interesting topic. I think you're on the right track with the heavier forgings. The leather grips might weigh a little more than 50g, not sure though. Don't forget flat lies!

You can get X300s at the link below. They have .355 and .370 versions.

[url="http://www.golfworks.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_DGI"]http://www.golfworks....asp_Q_pn_E_DGI[/url]

I got one to test in a 6 iron and found it to be quite a nice shaft and basically the heaviest you can get. Weren't there X500s back in the day?
[/quote]

Thanks for link - shudder to think how heavy x 500 would feel..... certainly sounds like the mythical telegraph pole!

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1317087888' post='3593285']
Andrisani: says 43.5 inch 3 wood,

Sampson says he hit Hogan's 3 wood and one iron: "the rough textured cord grips are significantly oversized and turned slightly counterclockwise. The heads are very heavy, with two degree flat lies that remind you of hockey sticks."

He quotes Gene Sheely: "Hogan's driver was forty-two and seven-eighths inches long and stiff as a goddamn pole. . . Very big block, heavy. Eleven degrees bulge, twelve degrees roll. He went to a forty-four-inch driver after 1967."

In power golf, hogan says his driver was 14 ounces.

His one iron from Merion fame was estimated from a photo to have a 51 degree lie angle.

I will measure and weigh the experimental precision irons and woods I have and post the specs. The woods are the earliest examples I have seen with hand engraved numbers and no marks on the soleplates.

Hogan Experimental early precision driver 14 1/4 oz, D1 SW, 43 1/8" length (measured to the end of the butt cap using a Mitchell Club length ruler, 12" long calfskin leather wrapped grip, Rocket Tour shaft.

Hogan Experimental precision (long hosel w/crescents) 3 iron, D1 SW, 38 1/4" length, 12" calfskin leather wrap grip, 15 5/8 oz, 20.5* loft, 59* lie angle.
[/quote]

Thanks Drew - interesting that Sampson and Vasquez both go with 2 degrees flat...

Whereas others are saying alot flatter... I have seen Lag Erickson and Brad Hughes estimate on the Merion 1 iron... that makes it very flat!!

For such an easily measurable detail.... we are really in the dark....

What is the dead weight of that 3 iron?? D1 is relatively normal swing weight for an iron with alot of head mass (long hosel etc)

My 4 iron long hosel Precision weighs in a 470 grams dead weight....estimate swing weight using calculator in first post...D1 (that's 16.6 ounces!!!) ...must be counterbalance somewhere - maybe those rocket shafts??

PS..you know we have the metric system nowadays
Here in UK we are pretty mixed up.... I like grams for mass of small things... but inches for golf club length...yards for distance.... ounces no good for me... but stone and pounds are my unit of choice for my body weight .... very inconsistent!

Your mission is to do the digital protractor lie angle thing on these pics, and find the guy who bought it:

Grips are definitely oversized!

http://www.greenjacketauctions.com/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=8261#pic

Real.

P.s. Use the face grooves to determine the lie angle.

Mr. H played MacGregor gear for most of his competitive years ... first Hogan Co. clubs appeared in 1954. I'll check with my club repair guy to see if any of the old time Mac guys are still with us. Most of the Mac talent stayed in town when the company moved to GA in the early sixties. One of them was Howard Delaney who started Cincinnati Golf ... bought much of the Mac equipment and materials that the company did not move to their new digs. Unfortunately, Howard passed away several years ago but there might be somebody who worked for him who might know something. Btw, Howard used to adjust lofts/lies with a rawhide hammer, not a bending bar ... blew me away the first time I saw him do it.

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1317121908' post='3593969']
Your mission is to do the digital protractor lie angle thing on these pics, and find the guy who bought it:

Grips are definitely oversized!

http://www.greenjacketauctions.com/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=8261#pic

Real.

P.s. Use the face grooves to determine the lie angle.
[/quote]


If that is a real Hogan club, we would also need to know the length and lie angle to get an idea.

If you click on the pictures of the head, it looks like the bend in the hosel actually bends the club UP-right. I see this in at least 2 pictures. And overall for a 1 iron, it does not look terribly flat.

2* flat makes sense also, considereing 'stock' was much flatter in those days. My guess is that compared to today, it would be 4-6 flat.

That hosel is crazy, it is so long that the sweetspot must be like a shank.

Just looking through 5 lessons, and on page 124, Hogan writes:

"...as the length of the shaft of the club changes (My driver, for example, is 43 inches long; my two-iron, 38 1/2; my five, 37 inches; my wedge 34 1/2 inches.)"

Would that be Level 1 Knowledge?

since Ben Hogan won most of his tournaments with MacGregor woods, I can tell you that he had the stiffest shaft available IN His Driver- not all of his other clubs. My guess is the dead weight (swing weight was not used at that time) was over 14 ounces, possibly as much as 14 3/4. I have Toney Penna 's driver and Charley Penna 's driver in my attic. I don't recall the specs, but guess about 13 3/4 or 7/8 and 43 inch length

[quote name='sajohnson' timestamp='1317139596' post='3594517']
Just looking through 5 lessons, and on page 124, Hogan writes:

"...as the length of the shaft of the club changes (My driver, for example, is 43 inches long; my two-iron, 38 1/2; my five, 37 inches; my wedge 34 1/2 inches.)"

Would that be Level 1 Knowledge?
[/quote]

Level 1 ...

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1317121908' post='3593969']
Your mission is to do the digital protractor lie angle thing on these pics, and find the guy who bought it:

Grips are definitely oversized!

[url="http://www.greenjacketauctions.com/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=8261#pic"]http://www.greenjack...itemid=8261#pic[/url]

Real.

P.s. Use the face grooves to determine the lie angle.
[/quote]

No digital protractor but holding a plastic one against the screen is giving me flattest estimate of about 62 degrees ...

Vasquez said his 2 iron was 58.5 degrees compared with standard being 59 degrees...

Presume the 1 iron would be flatter....

Does make you wonder.... was Jody Vasquez correct... was the story about the 1 iron correct... whoever paid 10K must be hoping so....

That 1 iron has had too varied a history to be taken as level 1 evidence... it is level 3-4 at best...

The stuff we want is in USGA house or Shady Oaks... and ideally the older stuff from 1953...

Iron shafts were x stiff (most likely A5's ?) tipped 2''.

Sources is Lag via Tom Wishon via Gene Sheeley ... but you knew that! LOL. Wishon said he held them - very heavy, very flat, very stiff.

BD, have you ever hit a Vector? Wonder if Mr. H ever played a V5?

[quote name='golfbulldog1' timestamp='1317149833' post='3594991']
[quote name='sajohnson' timestamp='1317139596' post='3594517']
Just looking through 5 lessons, and on page 124, Hogan writes:

"...as the length of the shaft of the club changes (My driver, for example, is 43 inches long; my two-iron, 38 1/2; my five, 37 inches; my wedge 34 1/2 inches.)"

Would that be Level 1 Knowledge?
[/quote]

Level 1 ...


[/quote]
A 43inch driver and a 381/2 two iron was not much over standard length at the time . The caps were much smaller than today. Hogan never wore a glove and used what were called Burke par grips ( invented by the 1956 masters champ's dad) They were virtually vulcanized onto the club

Just as a side discussion,does anyone know why Hogan never wore a glove?With all that practice it must rip his hands up.Fred Couple doesn't wear a glove but you never see him on the practice tee.

It's quite interesting that Moe didn't wear a glove either.Could the reason be economics?

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1317179779' post='3596275']
Just as a side discussion,does anyone know why Hogan never wore a glove?With all that practice it must rip his hands up.Fred Couple doesn't wear a glove but you never see him on the practice tee.

It's quite interesting that Moe didn't wear a glove either.Could the reason be economics?
[/quote]


Toney penna never wore a glove neither did Hogan. I think Couples was the last major winner, possibly Faldo ,without a glove. The prevailing theory at that time was no glove equals more feel, tactile senses. Also, small hands meant big grips. toney used 1 /16 oversize I think Hogan was the same. Charley penna wore a cadet medium glove and 1/32 oversize grips

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1317179779' post='3596275']
Just as a side discussion,does anyone know why Hogan never wore a glove?With all that practice it must rip his hands up.Fred Couple doesn't wear a glove but you never see him on the practice tee.

It's quite interesting that Moe didn't wear a glove either.Could the reason be economics?
[/quote]
I read somewhere recently that Mr. H did did not wear a glove because he got better feel without one. I've always wondered about this too and lately have been experimenting with losing my glove ... so far, so good.

[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1317180525' post='3596343']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1317179779' post='3596275']
Just as a side discussion,does anyone know why Hogan never wore a glove?With all that practice it must rip his hands up.Fred Couple doesn't wear a glove but you never see him on the practice tee.

It's quite interesting that Moe didn't wear a glove either.Could the reason be economics?
[/quote]


Toney penna never wore a glove neither did Hogan. I think Couples was the last major winner, possibly Faldo ,without a glove. The prevailing theory at that time was no glove equals more feel, tactile senses. Also, small hands meant big grips. toney used 1 /16 oversize I think Hogan was the same. Charley penna wore a cadet medium glove and 1/32 oversize grips
[/quote]

Thanks for the details on the Penna clubs and gloves !

[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1317180525' post='3596343']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1317179779' post='3596275']
Just as a side discussion,does anyone know why Hogan never wore a glove?With all that practice it must rip his hands up.Fred Couple doesn't wear a glove but you never see him on the practice tee.

It's quite interesting that Moe didn't wear a glove either.Could the reason be economics?
[/quote]


Toney penna never wore a glove neither did Hogan. I think Couples was the last major winner, possibly Faldo ,without a glove. The prevailing theory at that time was no glove equals more feel, tactile senses. Also, small hands meant big grips. toney used 1 /16 oversize I think Hogan was the same. Charley penna wore a cadet medium glove and 1/32 oversize grips
[/quote]

Ironically, Lucas Glover is gloveless and he won the US Open in 2009. Personally, I don't know how they can do it on a hot day. Seems like it would take some pretty high grip pressure to hold on when the hands get sweaty. I'd bet in Hogan's case it was a carryover from his youth when he couldn't afford gloves.

I don´t think 51 degree Lie angle for Mr. Hogan´s 1 Iron is far off:
[attachment=866289:Ben Hogan Lie Angle 1 Iron.jpg]

If I measure Mr. Hogan´s 1 Iron on this photo it has the same Lie angle:

[attachment=866293:Ben Hogan Lie Angle Iron.jpg]

Chris

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1317179779' post='3596275']
Just as a side discussion,does anyone know why Hogan never wore a glove?With all that practice it must rip his hands up.Fred Couple doesn't wear a glove but you never see him on the practice tee.

It's quite interesting that Moe didn't wear a glove either.Could the reason be economics?
[/quote]


[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1317180925' post='3596365']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1317179779' post='3596275']
Just as a side discussion,does anyone know why Hogan never wore a glove?With all that practice it must rip his hands up.Fred Couple doesn't wear a glove but you never see him on the practice tee.

It's quite interesting that Moe didn't wear a glove either.Could the reason be economics?
[/quote]
I read somewhere recently that Mr. H did did not wear a glove because he got better feel without one. I've always wondered about this too and lately have been experimenting with losing my glove ... so far, so good.
[/quote]


I dont wear a glove anymore. I think you gain a little feel, but otherwise it is just preference. Once in a while when it is really humid out or wet, I may have to throw a glove on when I hit a tee shot. That is rare though. IMO the only way to do it is with super cordy grips. The Lamkin Tour Cords are good. The half colored Golfpride are okay. YOur hands will take a beating in the early part of the year though.

edit: I do use tape on the pointer finger above the top hand and the ring finger of the bottom hand (where the hands meet to avoid chaffing/blisters). But this does not affect the grip much.

As far a lie angles go, I have noticed as Hogan got older that he has begun to stand more upright. Has anyone else noticed this?

[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1317126808' post='3594052']
Mr. H played MacGregor gear for most of his competitive years ... first Hogan Co. clubs appeared in 1954. I'll check with my club repair guy to see if any of the old time Mac guys are still with us. Most of the Mac talent stayed in town when the company moved to GA in the early sixties. One of them was Howard Delaney who started Cincinnati Golf ... bought much of the Mac equipment and materials that the company did not move to their new digs. Unfortunately, Howard passed away several years ago but there might be somebody who worked for him who might know something. Btw, Howard used to adjust lofts/lies with a rawhide hammer, not a bending bar ... blew me away the first time I saw him do it.
[/quote]

A little off topic but I have a set of Howard Delaney, Cincinatti Golf woods, some of the most gorgeous persimmon heads I have ever seen with sweep back soles and red inserts. I showed them to a former MacGregor staff player and his opinion is they are from old MacGregor stock which Mr. Delaney built and placed his company information on the sole plates.

What was the loft of Ben Hogans woods?