How do I stop pulling the handle?

Came to my attention recently that I pull the handle. Yanking that sucker down is killing my golf game. Easy.

From my very inside/out swing path from stuck position, this leads to my pushes, occasional shanks, or I flip and hook it.

Working on the other aspects mentioned above, but still need to stop yanking the club down by the handle.

Now the hard part. How do you stop pulling the handle down from the top?

What am I supposed to be feeling up top, before I come down?

Any drills or swing thoughts appreciated.

-Dan

Dan- here is what it feels like for me. Its a feel i am describing, so take it for what its worth. To me it feels like the club head is tipping behind me. To get this feeling i have to be slightly patient at the top. And my arms and club still stay in front, its just the weight of the clubhead that falls. Keeps me from coming in to steep, which can happen since i am a pretty tall guy. Like i said, its a feel for me, dont know if it would work for you.

[quote name='danattherock' timestamp='1336606278' post='4883876']
Came to my attention recently that I pull the handle. Yanking that sucker down is killing my golf game. Easy.

From my very inside/out swing path from stuck position, this leads to my pushes, occasional shanks, or I flip and hook it.

Working on the other aspects mentioned above, but still need to stop yanking the club down by the handle.


Now the hard part. How do you stop pulling the handle down from the top?

What am I supposed to be feeling up top, before I come down?

Any drills or swing thoughts appreciated.

-Dan
[/quote]

Trying swing the clubhead and not the handle.

[quote name='justinp766' timestamp='1336616483' post='4885220']
Trying swing the clubhead and not the handle.
[/quote]

Not a chance. Handpath gets ugly when you look at it that way. Swinging the handle is the way. But the trick is to know where the force is applied (or aimed)

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1336616922' post='4885276']
[quote name='justinp766' timestamp='1336616483' post='4885220']
Trying swing the clubhead and not the handle.
[/quote]

Not a chance. Handpath gets ugly when you look at it that way. Swinging the handle is the way. But the trick is to know where the force is applied (or aimed)
[/quote]

Sounds a little like someone is overswinging too..

Dan
if your upper left arm is connected to your torso,there is no need to pull the handle;your left turning pivot will pull everthing with it in the proper sequence.

Not trying to thread jack but Russc what drill would you use to work on the connectivity between the left are and torso?

Jimmy Ballard would suggest a hankerchief.^^^^

Tip that stemmed folks all over putting head covers under their left arm.

As the story goes, it came from Babe Ruth, who taught it to fellow team mate Sam Byrd, who won like 20 PGA events after retiring from baseball.

Sam passed it on to Jimmy Ballard. One of the founding ideas behind his 'connected swing' methodology. A system he has not changed in 40 years.

Jimmy has a book, dvd, arm connection training aid, and training glove that prevents right wrist from bowing, etc.. on his website.

The more I learned about Jimmy, the more interested I became.

I just spent two days in Atlanta with one of his proteges, Jim Grant (Standard Club).

Did some things I never thought possible with a golf club.

Over analyzed things on the 6 hour drive home perhaps.

But I must learn how to swing the club without pulling down the handle.

Doing it on some swings, not on others. Having hard time undoing old bad habits at the moment.

The two big changes I must make are the position of the club up top and delivering the club to the ball (covering ball) without yanking the handle down. Pulling the handle was going hand in hand with my poor takeaway and position up top as seen below. While the new position up top is pretty easy to get into, I am having more difficulty with stopping the pulling of the handle.

The effects on my downswing and follow through were immediate. On the range, far more impressive.

Thanks for the replies so far guys.

-Dan

Look up "hititlong" on youtube, otherwise Monte on there forums. Watch his video on false or fake lag. Perform the horizonntal baseball swing drill just like he does. This described perfectly to me how simple swinging the club really is. Dont worry about fake positions and other crap. Thisnguy Monte with his 3 minute videos says it all without the golf-bloviating. I believe by watching his short video youll see and be able to feel the right sensations without having to think about the handle or club head per se'.
Thx Jim

Best of luck!!!

Thanks Russc, I saw something in an old thread about that guys brother.


[quote name='woody089' timestamp='1336621275' post='4885814']
Look up Monte on there forums. Watch his video on false or fake lag.
[/quote]


I am a big fan of Monte. Thanks for the suggestion. I have not seen that particular video and I will check it out.




-Dan

[quote name='PopeJP' timestamp='1336619244' post='4885604']
Not trying to thread jack but Russc what drill would you use to work on the connectivity between the left are and torso?
[/quote]
PopeJP
Place a small nerf ball/credit card DEEP inside your left armpit and do not drop it until well into your follow through.This will connect your left arm to your body going back and help you swing left going down.There is a small but significant difference between using a head cover vs the small nerf ball /credit card.With a head cover the connection is going to be much larger, down well into the left bicep.This will in turn restrict a golfers ability to swing wide going back,while a small nerf ball placed DEEP within your left armpit will not.

Dan
Since you seem to be interested in Mr Ballard's ideas ,you might want to get in touch with fellow Golfwrxer ,Downtoscratch ,whose brother was Jimmy's main assistant for years.
Too bad you did not visit Fats for a chipping lesson ,when you were in the Atlanta area

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1336621766' post='4885852']
Too bad you did not visit Fats for a chipping lesson ,when you were in the Atlanta area
[/quote]



Never heard of Fats. Who is he?


Jim did give me an hour chipping lesson. Great stuff. He won Conn and Ga Amateurs, played on PGA for 7 years and had several 2nd place finishes, played in Masters twice and was top Amateur, been teaching for like 30 years. I have never met anyone with so much insight into golf. I thought my head was going to pop off my shoulders. Couldn't write fast enough. Ha ha... I learned more about golf in the last two days than the 25 years before. Can't wait to play in the morning.



-Dan

[quote name='danattherock' timestamp='1336622229' post='4885894']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1336621766' post='4885852']
Too bad you did not visit Fats for a chipping lesson ,when you were in the Atlanta area
[/quote]



Never heard of Fats. Who is he?


Jim did give me an hour chipping lesson. Great stuff. He won Conn and Ga Amateurs, played on PGA for 7 years and had several 2nd place finishes, played in Masters twice and was top Amateur, been teaching for like 30 years. I have never met anyone with so much insight into golf. I thought my head was going to pop off my shoulders. Couldn't write fast enough. Ha ha... I learned more about golf in the last two days than the 25 years before. Can't wait to play in the morning.



-Dan
[/quote]

Larry Mowry former Senior Pga Champion

He is 14 miles from The Standard Club where Jim teaches. Also, I see they played on the PGA tour during the same time, late 60's.


Certainly they know each other. I will ask Jim about him when we speak next.



-Dan

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1336616922' post='4885276']
[quote name='justinp766' timestamp='1336616483' post='4885220']
Trying swing the clubhead and not the handle.
[/quote]

Not a chance. Handpath gets ugly when you look at it that way. Swinging the handle is the way. [b]But the trick is to know where the force is applied (or aimed)[/b]
[/quote]

Bingo. Aim the handle when you grip it. You have to use the hands to aim the club. You don't aim it with your body or the turn of the body. And hand path is optional. Unless you strike it better than, lets say the top 100 in the world who all have different hand paths.

[quote name='justinp766' timestamp='1336617006' post='4885288']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1336616922' post='4885276']
[quote name='justinp766' timestamp='1336616483' post='4885220']
Trying swing the clubhead and not the handle.
[/quote]

Not a chance. Handpath gets ugly when you look at it that way. Swinging the handle is the way. But the trick is to know where the force is applied (or aimed)
[/quote]

Sounds a little like someone is overswinging too..
[/quote]

Maybe a year ago. Not now.

Where the clubhead goes is a result of the address position. no need to worry about it. The pressure points in my hands tell me what the face is doing and where the ch is.

[quote name='danattherock' timestamp='1336606278' post='4883876']
Came to my attention recently that I pull the handle. Yanking that sucker down is killing my golf game. Easy.

From my very inside/out swing path from stuck position, this leads to my pushes, occasional shanks, or I flip and hook it.

Working on the other aspects mentioned above, but still need to stop yanking the club down by the handle.


Now the hard part. How do you stop pulling the handle down from the top?

What am I supposed to be feeling up top, before I come down?

Any drills or swing thoughts appreciated.




-Dan
[/quote]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT6oP6HLVc8

Thanks for posting, but I am not sure what to make of it.


Searched on google and youtube. Mostly found this guy doing trick shots and such.


Any idea how the drill works?



-Dan

[quote name='danattherock' timestamp='1336706882' post='4893092']
Thanks for posting, but I am not sure what to make of it.


Searched on google and youtube. Mostly found this guy doing trick shots and such.


Any idea how the drill works?



-Dan
[/quote]

It's a drill (see 'tumble'). Get to the top and stop the hands then think of ONLY the club coming back to the ball. Trying it while hitting balls and you won't even come close to doing it, but it works wonders. I've worked all year erasing my handle drag and this is feeling #1 for me.

[quote name='danattherock' timestamp='1336706882' post='4893092']
Thanks for posting, but I am not sure what to make of it.


Searched on google and youtube. Mostly found this guy doing trick shots and such.


Any idea how the drill works?



-Dan
[/quote]


When he folds the club back down he is doing his takeaway backwards. To get to the top he wants to feel the move in reverse of the drill

takeaway steep and swing down flat on elbow plane.

I work on the gravity drop/Penick's magic move. Basically, I transition my weight and let my right elbow hit my right hip. I practice that move a lot at home as it helps to learn it without trying to hit a ball. Hogan's free ride down has to be similar, but I am certainly no expert.

I know you are taking lessons from Monte, so this is a pertinent video, I think.


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HmT4LN--3g[/media]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1336773448' post='4897794']
[quote name='danattherock' timestamp='1336706882' post='4893092']
Thanks for posting, but I am not sure what to make of it.


Searched on google and youtube. Mostly found this guy doing trick shots and such.


Any idea how the drill works?



-Dan
[/quote]


When he folds the club back down he is doing his takeaway backwards. To get to the top he wants to feel the move in reverse of the drill

takeaway steep and swing down flat on elbow plane.
[/quote]

Negatory, steep to flat is the problem.

I've been working on this as well as I pulled the handle underplane for years and swung to right field.

This is the drill I did all winter: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31172ffiPs8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31172ffiPs8[/url]
Different view: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RutNIhF9Jqg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RutNIhF9Jqg[/url]

My main thought is to rotate the left forearm and then start folding the right elbow earlier in the backswing. From the top, unfold the elbow to start the downswing to get the clubhead moving first. Another feel is to move your hands away from your head to start the downswing.

[quote name='danattherock' timestamp='1336606278' post='4883876']
[b]Came to my attention recently that I pull the handle. Yanking that sucker down is killing my golf game[/b]. Easy.

From my very inside/out swing path from stuck position, this leads to my pushes, occasional shanks, or I flip and hook it.

Working on the other aspects mentioned above, but still need to stop yanking the club down by the handle.


Now the hard part. How do you stop pulling the handle down from the top?

What am I supposed to be feeling up top, before I come down?

Any drills or swing thoughts appreciated.




-Dan
[/quote]

I don't think I could ever quit doing it. I'm still waiting to go blind but, so far so good.

[quote name='gators78' timestamp='1336795232' post='4899572']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1336773448' post='4897794']
When he folds the club back down he is doing his takeaway backwards. To get to the top he wants to feel the move in reverse of the drill

takeaway steep and swing down flat on elbow plane.
[/quote]

Negatory, steep to flat is the problem.
[/quote]

Must be some terminology misunderstanding? Here's Grant Waite going back steep(in relation to the downswing) and flattening it out.

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Your other option is to take it back underplane and go over the top like everybody else. Im no pro, and at the moment Im in between lol. But if you think steep to flat is bad then somebody lied to you...

Unless your lie angles are really really upright. Then I guess that might be reason to say you dont like flat downswings...

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1336845790' post='4901292']
[quote name='gators78' timestamp='1336795232' post='4899572']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1336773448' post='4897794']
When he folds the club back down he is doing his takeaway backwards. To get to the top he wants to feel the move in reverse of the drill

takeaway steep and swing down flat on elbow plane.
[/quote]

Negatory, steep to flat is the problem.
[/quote]

Must be some terminology misunderstanding? Here's Grant Waite going back steep(in relation to the downswing) and flattening it out.

<object width="560" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/MsW0WuytKAE?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/MsW0WuytKAE?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="560" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

Your other option is to take it back underplane and go over the top like everybody else. Im no pro, and at the moment Im in between lol. But if you think steep to flat is bad then somebody lied to you...

Unless your lie angles are really really upright. Then I guess that might be reason to say you dont like flat downswings...
[/quote]

Steep to flat isn't bad. Feeling steep to flat when somebody is already stuck/underplane and tugging the handle will further wreck a golf swing, I've been there plenty.

Lots of those guys on tv get steep to flat in the transition but on the way down it's not far off what Noren is doing in that drill. Amateurs have trouble timing it and get flatter while trying to go at the ball so really bad things ensue. Oversimplifying it here but think in/out hand path and over the top with the actual club (see Kuchar, Fowler, aka tumble drill)

Noren is just making sure he's not getting stuck and really exaggerating that feeling, you'll see towards the end of the vid he gets to the top, stops for a bit, then the club folds down while hands stay put. Not for everyone though, this is strictly somebody fighting a tug/underplane move.

[quote name='gators78' timestamp='1336858716' post='4902100']

Steep to flat isn't bad. Feeling steep to flat when somebody is already stuck/underplane and tugging the handle will further wreck a golf swing, I've been there plenty.

Lots of those guys on tv get steep to flat in the transition but on the way down it's not far off what Noren is doing in that drill. Amateurs have trouble timing it and get flatter while trying to go at the ball so really bad things ensue. Oversimplifying it here but think in/out hand path and over the top with the actual club (see Kuchar, Fowler, aka tumble drill)

Noren is just making sure he's not getting stuck and really exaggerating that feeling, you'll see towards the end of the vid he gets to the top, stops for a bit, then the club folds down while hands stay put. Not for everyone though, this is strictly somebody fighting a tug/underplane move.
[/quote]

In that case I feel obligated to thread jack lmao. I would love to know what a "tug/underplane move" looks like. What I thought of when I first saw the words tug and [i]pulling the handle[/i] was pulling the handle straight down in transition prematurely. Here's me from last year @ P5 and getting steeper

[attachment=1160274:P5 Steeper.jpg]


Then tipping out, goat humping, and falling away so I can time the flip (watch the head change between these next 2 pics) P6.5 and P7ish:

[attachment=1160276:P6.5 Steeper.jpg]

[attachment=1160278:P7 Steeper.jpg]


So how do I pull it underplane? Found a one liner in TGM about drag loading the other day. The feel was that you are drawing a arrow from a quiver with your right arm. That's what I meant by the direction of the pull.

Since I seem to have missed the OP's problem (searching for stuff about my own problems I guess lmao) then I will say that I like this address position much much better than the other...

[attachment=1160280:Dantherock.jpg]


From there you can flatten the shaft and swing on elbow plane to impact. From your other position the club shaft would just pass across your elbow but wouldnt truly be on elbow plane. If you pull the handle down from either position then you wreck your chances of hitting a good shot.

The before and after are two different swing styles for sure. For a bigger guy, the after swng style will often times work better.

[quote name='bmellisen' timestamp='1336866159' post='4902628']
The before and after are two different swing styles for sure. For a bigger guy, the after swng style will often times work better.
[/quote]

Not in this case...Look at the FO image after impact, and the before DTL backswing. He can already get into both positions dynamically and we have photo evidence. So now all he needs to do is blend the 2

The After downswing FO image is only a reaction to what the club did so he should make the before backswing and on the downswing; feel what he felt in the after down swing.

The only way to train this is to listen to your hands when you exaggerate the [i]after[/i] downswing, and then MAKE your hands receive the same feedback from the [i]before[/i] backswing position

If you are trying to [i]swing the club head[/i] then your hands are deaf. Swing the handle and feel what the club (shaft and face) is doing. After enough video and mirror stuff you should be able to tell with your eyes closed where everything is going.

(there's the ahhh--haaa moment for justinp766)