Low and left = worst swing feel in golf

Hogan was low and left but he didn't ever try to be (see practice swings). It is a result of his pivot and backswing.

Trying to get low and left if the worst feel you can have IMO. Turns you into a mop/handle-dragger.

I didn't get why people said low and left is an illusion but I think I'm starting to get it now. Yes it does look low and left, but that isn't the intent. If that;s your intent then your toast IMO.

You'll anger the slice fixer crowd. What I've been saying all along. Hard not to do it with the level shoulder turn...lol (sorry, can't resist it...lol)

I think the club goes left but not low. I'm pretty sure Geoff isn't telling people low and left either. I think (not sure) he believes in swinging left, but not low. There are no contrived parts to his swing like dragging a mop, etc. Russ could chime in here with the definitive answer on what Geoff teaches.

Perp to the neck tilts will be the best term for me.

Clubhead just goes low and more DTL (with armpits connected, mind you) with Hogan due to his setup, grip and pivot. But you know that.

So I agree w/ HG, that club goes left but shoulders turn more vertically, hence sending the club up, not low. The more vertical shoulder turn has allowed me to get down to the ball, kept the right elbow bent, and generally just hit the ball better than ever in my entire life. Also, vertical shoulder turn and driving R knee down and at ball has eliminated my goathumping. BTW, thanks for the advice HG.

No prob. Just don't tell them the secret... ...

No one feel is better or worse than any other, as long as it is applied to the right person to produce the right result.

I don't think slicefixer is telling anyone to go low and left. I've only seen him every use low and left to describe the look of the release. I've never seen him so I don;t know what he teaches, but I am going to try to go see him soon.

I think the error is a bunch of golf wrx and peter kostis hearing nubs (like myself) that hear and see so much low and left that they try to achieve it. Then they go about it the wrong way. That's my point.

Hogan looks and is low and left in my point (at least from DTL, it clearly looks low and left). His hands disappear left while they are still very low. That much is clear IMO.

I'm just saying trying to do that the wrong way can make a major mess.

But again, I don't think Slicefixer is telling people to go low and left in any of the posts I've read from him. I tihnk he is just describing something that is more of a check point and a result of a good pivot. So I hope this doesn't anger anyone. Not the intent.

Agree Tyler.

What is wrong with pulling a handle? Nobody has ever explained to my why this is bad, all it is a feel.

IMO it looks like Hogan was the biggest puller of all time.

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1346531918' post='5571701']
Hogan looks and is low and left in my point (at least from DTL, it clearly looks low and left). His hands disappear left while they are still very low. That much is clear IMO.

I'm just saying trying to do that the wrong way can make a major mess.

But again, I don't think Slicefixer is telling people to go low and left in any of the posts I've read from him. I tihnk he is just describing something that is more of a check point and a result of a good pivot. So I hope this doesn't anger anyone. Not the intent.
[/quote]

IMHO, you diagnosed it yourself. I think that 'low and left' may be manipulated during drills to ingrain a feel, but, not something you consciously do during the full swing. The arms staying connected to the body + no active hand release = low and left. Shouldn't the high finish still be achieved with a steep shoulder plane and the right side driving through past impact?

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1346541399' post='5572237']
What is wrong with pulling a handle? Nobody has ever explained to my why this is bad, all it is a feel.

IMO it looks like Hogan was the biggest puller of all time.
[/quote]

That's what I mean - it looks like that from DTL. Then you watch face on and realize he barely leans the shaft at impact, if at all (with long clubs). How can you pull the grip through impact and not lean the shaft?

Maybe your pull feeling is different then mine. When I pull the grip, I get crazy shaft lean like tiger, and hit it very inconsistent. And I don't believe it's what hogan did.

When you release properly the head comes out. It is not linear pulling, but down and around the left leg, almost like a fulcrum, the head springs. IMO shaft lien can be fixed with set up.

I just wnt through a bout of the lows, maybe too much shaft lien, but the problem was simple set up.

IMO, if you have to pull the grip to obtain shaft lean (which Hogan didn't have much anyway especially for his fades, which is very high), the problem is the pivot...you are turning the shoulders too level...lol...so turn the shoulders steep and DTL baby!!!...rofl...

Hogan is much shorter, had long arms, had same length clubs, and we want to turn our shoulders as level him?!...and that is assuming he's really turning it level...how can you do that with that kind of neck tilt...and I'm the joke...lol

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1346531918' post='5571701']
I don't think slicefixer is telling anyone to go low and left. I've only seen him every use low and left to describe the look of the release. I've never seen him so I don;t know what he teaches, but I am going to try to go see him soon.

I think the error is a bunch of golf wrx and peter kostis hearing nubs (like myself) that hear and see so much low and left that they try to achieve it. Then they go about it the wrong way. That's my point.

Hogan looks and is low and left in my point (at least from DTL, it clearly looks low and left). His hands disappear left while they are still very low. That much is clear IMO.

I'm just saying trying to do that the wrong way can make a major mess.

But again, I don't think Slicefixer is telling people to go low and left in any of the posts I've read from him. I tihnk he is just describing something that is more of a check point and a result of a good pivot. So I hope this doesn't anger anyone. Not the intent.
[/quote]

Had talked about this with Geoff in April. He said...he is not a big fan of the term "low and left". But likes the term "around" the body.

Yeah, it's a low and turn the corner. Mainly to describe quiet hands, big pivot.

[quote name='Timanator' timestamp='1346556391' post='5573169']
Yeah, it's a low and turn the corner. Mainly to describe quiet hands, big pivot.
[/quote]

How does he describe the pivot at release phase?

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1346554517' post='5573059']
IMO, if you have to pull the grip to obtain shaft lean (which Hogan didn't have much anyway especially for his fades, which is very high), the problem is the pivot...you are turning the shoulders too level...lol...so turn the shoulders steep and DTL baby!!!...rofl...

Hogan is much shorter, had long arms, had same length clubs, and we want to turn our shoulders as level him?!...and that is assuming he's really turning it level...how can you do that with that kind of neck tilt...and I'm the joke...lol
[/quote]

This

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1346548279' post='5572613']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1346541399' post='5572237']
What is wrong with pulling a handle? Nobody has ever explained to my why this is bad, all it is a feel.

IMO it looks like Hogan was the biggest puller of all time.
[/quote]

That's what I mean - it looks like that from DTL. Then you watch face on and realize he barely leans the shaft at impact, if at all (with long clubs). How can you pull the grip through impact and not lean the shaft?

Maybe your pull feeling is different then mine. When I pull the grip, I get crazy shaft lean like tiger, and hit it very inconsistent. And I don't believe it's what hogan did.
[/quote]

The wrist angle "disappears" because it is rotating.

"...school yourself to think in terms of the cause and not the result."

Another video that shows Hogan's divot/path past-impact:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK-zViTGQbs

Glad to see a few people catching on that Low and Left is a contrived motion based on 2-D photo/video analysis. You could take two pictures at different angles of the same golfer and end up with two different "perceived" images at impact; one being low and left, and the other more DTL.

Focus more on the body and pivot, and how it moves through impact and beyond. NOT, and I repeat, NOT "LOW AND LEFT."

Do you think "Low and Left" was working for Tiger this week in Boston when he needed to reach a back left pin? If he was able to hit several shots into the green that required a draw, he most likely would have won or at least tied Rory. Instead, he hit straights shots that left him 50-60ft putting for birdie.

Oh and when it comes to basic chips/pitches, Tiger struggled this week, too.

[quote name='jak_bot' timestamp='1346767242' post='5583575']
Glad to see a few people catching on that Low and Left is a contrived motion based on 2-D photo/video analysis. You could take two pictures at different angles of the same golfer and end up with two different "perceived" images at impact; one being low and left, and the other more DTL.

Focus more on the body and pivot, and how it moves through impact and beyond. NOT, and I repeat, NOT "LOW AND LEFT."

Do you think "Low and Left" was working for Tiger this week in Boston when he needed to reach a back left pin? If he was able to hit several shots into the green that required a draw, he most likely would have won or at least tied Rory. Instead, he hit straights shots that left him 50-60ft putting for birdie.

Oh and when it comes to basic chips/pitches, Tiger struggled this week, too.
[/quote]

Yep that exactly why - it has nothing to do with all the eight footers he missed all week.

Its funny, for a guy who is like 3rd in total ballstriking, he sure gets a lot of criticism. Hopefully he doesn't to learn to "low and left" his driver like this other 13 clubs, we wouldn't want him hitting good shots with his drive all the time.

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1346769565' post='5583833']
[quote name='jak_bot' timestamp='1346767242' post='5583575']
Glad to see a few people catching on that Low and Left is a contrived motion based on 2-D photo/video analysis. You could take two pictures at different angles of the same golfer and end up with two different "perceived" images at impact; one being low and left, and the other more DTL.

Focus more on the body and pivot, and how it moves through impact and beyond. NOT, and I repeat, NOT "LOW AND LEFT."

Do you think "Low and Left" was working for Tiger this week in Boston when he needed to reach a back left pin? If he was able to hit several shots into the green that required a draw, he most likely would have won or at least tied Rory. Instead, he hit straights shots that left him 50-60ft putting for birdie.

Oh and when it comes to basic chips/pitches, Tiger struggled this week, too.
[/quote]

Yep that exactly why - it has nothing to do with all the eight footers he missed all week.

Its funny, for a guy who is like 3rd in total ballstriking, he sure gets a lot of criticism. Hopefully he doesn't to learn to "low and left" his driver like this other 13 clubs, we wouldn't want him hitting good shots with his drive all the time.
[/quote]

Can you explain to me how Hogan can have a low and left intent with that full frontal extension of him happening with his R shoulder going lower after impact?

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1346557601' post='5573261']


How does he describe the pivot at release phase?
[/quote]

It's not a release the club with your hands like in most teachings. It's more of a club coming down the line and then around the corner by the pivot, which is what squares the face up. There is no attempt to release anything.

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1346769565' post='5583833']
[quote name='jak_bot' timestamp='1346767242' post='5583575']
Glad to see a few people catching on that Low and Left is a contrived motion based on 2-D photo/video analysis. You could take two pictures at different angles of the same golfer and end up with two different "perceived" images at impact; one being low and left, and the other more DTL.

Focus more on the body and pivot, and how it moves through impact and beyond. NOT, and I repeat, NOT "LOW AND LEFT."

Do you think "Low and Left" was working for Tiger this week in Boston when he needed to reach a back left pin? If he was able to hit several shots into the green that required a draw, he most likely would have won or at least tied Rory. Instead, he hit straights shots that left him 50-60ft putting for birdie.

Oh and when it comes to basic chips/pitches, Tiger struggled this week, too.
[/quote]

Yep that exactly why - it has nothing to do with all the eight footers he missed all week.

Its funny, for a guy who is like 3rd in total ballstriking, he sure gets a lot of criticism. Hopefully he doesn't to learn to "low and left" his driver like this other 13 clubs, we wouldn't want him hitting good shots with his drive all the time.
[/quote]

I guess you watching a different tournament than I was. On approach shots and tee shots on Par-3's he consistently blocked or hit straight shots to greens that had back left pins. The anguish on Tiger's face was more than enough to tell me this is a problem.

BTW, the shots were still GIR, but were 50-60ft from the cup.

Care to provide a link that shows tiger is "3rd in total ballstriking".

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1346772848' post='5584257']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1346769565' post='5583833']
[quote name='jak_bot' timestamp='1346767242' post='5583575']
Glad to see a few people catching on that Low and Left is a contrived motion based on 2-D photo/video analysis. You could take two pictures at different angles of the same golfer and end up with two different "perceived" images at impact; one being low and left, and the other more DTL.

Focus more on the body and pivot, and how it moves through impact and beyond. NOT, and I repeat, NOT "LOW AND LEFT."

Do you think "Low and Left" was working for Tiger this week in Boston when he needed to reach a back left pin? If he was able to hit several shots into the green that required a draw, he most likely would have won or at least tied Rory. Instead, he hit straights shots that left him 50-60ft putting for birdie.

Oh and when it comes to basic chips/pitches, Tiger struggled this week, too.
[/quote]

Yep that exactly why - it has nothing to do with all the eight footers he missed all week.

Its funny, for a guy who is like 3rd in total ballstriking, he sure gets a lot of criticism. Hopefully he doesn't to learn to "low and left" his driver like this other 13 clubs, we wouldn't want him hitting good shots with his drive all the time.
[/quote]

Can you explain to me how Hogan can have a low and left intent with that full frontal extension of him happening with his R shoulder going lower after impact?
[/quote]

That's simple, he played to his intended target, not the golf ball.

[quote name='Timanator' timestamp='1346773900' post='5584389']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1346557601' post='5573261']
How does he describe the pivot at release phase?
[/quote]

It's not a release the club with your hands like in most teachings. It's more of a club coming down the line and then around the corner by the pivot, which is what squares the face up. There is no attempt to release anything.
[/quote]

I like the no hands. But how does the pivot behave?

Excuse me I was wrong, Tiger is FOURTH.

[url="http://www.pgatour.com/r/stats/info/xm.html?158"]http://www.pgatour.com/r/stats/info/xm.html?158[/url]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1346775232' post='5584553']


I like the no hands. But how does the pivot behave?
[/quote]

I'm not versed in TGM terms, so this is the way I can see it.

The arms and hands do just one thing, they travel with the shoulders on the back swing to where the shoulder stops, the hands fully hinge. So they set the club.

Once the turn and set is finished, the core turns hard left against the set/posted right knee ankles. The arms and hands stay in the set position as they get pulled down low and around with the core in winding aggressively without any attempt to move lateral. If you look at all the Slicefixer students, you can see the club at the top being pulled down(loaded up) right at the core transition.

Geoff Jones has had several method of describing the feel over the years. But that's what I notice from studying the footages. I don't think low and left is so bad as long as its pivot driven.