Tip Weights and effect on Shaft Flex

Hi All,

Can someone confirm if adding tip weights affects the flex of a shaft?

I want to increase the swing weight on my irons by 4 points so I will have to add 8 gram weights to do so.

If I am playing X100 Shafts will they still play like an X100 or more like a S300?

Cheers,

Rob

8g will have zero effect on flex - they will still be X100.

I disagree. I believe it will essentially have a similar affect as soft stepping your irons.

[i]Flex[/i] is effectively measured in or just below your hands - the butt end of the shaft. [i]Flight[/i] is influenced [i]more[/i] by the tip than the butt. It seems more likely that you would see more difference in flight than flex and FWIW, every time I add signifigant weight (maybe 10+ grams) to a shaft tip or head I actually see a slightly [i]lower [/i]flight. But because all swings and golfers are unique, YMMV.

i read somewhere yesterday that adding to much weight to the shaft tip will change the club head center of gravity and cause more errant shots and a worse feeling club...I was thinking of adding tip weights to my shafts as well but didn't know how much would be to much

[quote name='jaskanski' timestamp='1347915431' post='5652971']
8g will have zero effect on flex - they will still be X100.
[/quote]
I can't be bothered to explain about how and why, so I'll just repeat my first post. I should add it will have zero effect on clubhead centre of gravity too. Any more old wives tales about tip weights?

It won't affect shaft flex but I happen to believe based on my own experience that adding too much weight to the tip will change the balance of the club. I had a set of Macgregors that I added tip weights to, 8 grams if I remember correctly, and the club just felt way unbalanced and I had a hard time hitting the center of the club. I removed the tip weights and added the weight in lead tape directly to back of the club and the balance was much better and the contact was back to normal. Just my two cents.

[quote name='jaskanski' timestamp='1347992332' post='5658509']
[quote name='jaskanski' timestamp='1347915431' post='5652971']
8g will have zero effect on flex - they will still be X100.
[/quote]
I can't be bothered to explain about how and why, so I'll just repeat my first post. I should add it will have zero effect on clubhead centre of gravity too. Any more old wives tales about tip weights?
[/quote]

I agree. I get most of my heads rawed and they lose 3-5g when this is done. I also play HEAVY iron swing weights so I have to add it back somewhere. Its always added back in the tip at 10+ grams on some and never any different then it played before. Hopefully Tom Wishon will chim in on this also...

Tom is coming? quick! -- look busy.
Just kidding. I should qualify my post(s) by saying that by "zero" effect, I actually meant to the extent that would be detectable by a normal human being. Since the weight has been altered slightly, it will have an effect on the actual cpm (however small) and the CoG (however small). But for the sake of argument, the adding of 8g tip weights has no effect on flex or CoG. For those who can detect a difference, you are probably thinking of swingweight and the mental effect it has on your feel of the swing. But as for turning the X100 into a S300 or the equivalent of soft stepping? Or affecting ball flight? Give me a break.

jaskanski,

If the typical gap in weight between irons is ~6.5 grams or so, why wouldn't be the same as soft stepping. Is it because the weight is high in the hosel as opposed to low/back in the iron head?

Look like 8 grams on a 5 iron would be about 5 CPM difference which looks like halfway between X100 and S300 using the numbers in the Hireko charts.

[quote name='Cletus' timestamp='1347996991' post='5658927']
jaskanski,

If the typical gap in weight between irons is ~6.5 grams or so, why wouldn't be the same as soft stepping. Is it because the weight is high in the hosel as opposed to low/back in the iron head?
[/quote]

Yes, please enlighten us. It will make an affect. Will certainly be noticeable in the long irons.

[quote name='Mr Titleist' timestamp='1347915142' post='5652949']
Hi All,

Can someone confirm if adding tip weights affects the flex of a shaft?

I want to increase the swing weight on my irons by 4 points so I will have to add 8 gram weights to do so.

If I am playing X100 Shafts will they still play like an X100 or more like a S300?


Cheers,

Rob
[/quote]

Add the weight to the shaft, not the head.

Every two grams of head weight is one cpm on frequency.

[quote name='jaskanski' timestamp='1347995762' post='5658837']
Tom is coming? quick! -- look busy.
Just kidding. I should qualify my post(s) by saying that by "zero" effect, I actually meant to the extent that would be detectable by a normal human being.

But as for turning the X100 into a S300 or the equivalent of soft stepping? Or affecting ball flight? Give me a break.
[/quote]

OK EVERYONE, BACK TO WORK !!!!!!

Plain and simple, Jaskanski is right. Back when I developed the hosel weight bore on all my clubhead designs, I had heard Ralph Maltby drone on about how adding weight in the heel side of a clubhead changed its performance. So I did a pretty extensive study on all of this, then repeated it several years later when some other expert in the industry began to crow about heel weighting harming clubhead performance.

The heaviest tip weight in the industry is 9 grams. I know because we make it. (or at least I have yet to hear of one heavier)

12 grams put in the shaft tip or at the bottom of the hosel bore will move the center of gravity 1/8" toward the weight. When we did robot hit testing, we saw NO drop in ball speed and no change in dispersion when hitting the ball dead center without any weight in the hosel vs a dead center hit with 12 grams in the hosel/shaft tip. (Then we went farther and found that the first indications of draw bias from weight added in the heel area of the head only began at 25 grams)

Hit testing was done with what then was my regular hit test group of teaching pros, handicaps from +3 to 7, including 2 players who were in the top ten of money winnings in the Texas section of the PGA of America every year. Not one of these pros detected any difference in ball flight from a movement of the CG of 1/8" due to the addition of 12g in the hosel vs putting the weight perfectly distributed around the head. (Then we went farther and found that the first indications of draw bias from weight added in the heel area of the head only began at 25 grams)

Now as to the shaft's flex feel from hosel weighting/tip weighting, that depends on two things - 1) how stiff is the shaft in relation to the golfer's TRANSITION FORCE and DOWNSWING AGGRESSIVENESS; 2) what swingweight at what length that tip weight ended up making the club to be.

The less stiff the shaft and more forceful/aggressive the transition/tempo, the more the golfer could think the shaft were a little more flexible when larger amounts of weight are put in the hosel. But the mitigating factor in this is what did the swingweight become for how much weight put into the shaft tip/hosel? If you had a light head to begin with or a shorter length to begin with and an addition of 12 grams in the tip put the swingweight at D2, then that shaft is NOT going to feel more flexible than it was designed to be. But if the addition of weight put the swingweight up to say D6, then that is going to be a headweight feel that in the hands of a strong transition player is going to feel as if it is more flexible. But to a smooth transition player, they won;t notice a thing.

Bottom line - as Jaskanski said, none of this related to tip/hosel weighting is detectible by the vast, vast majority of golfers. Build the club, choose the right shaft to match your swing speed/transition/tempo/release, swingweight it to have the best headweight FEEL for your swing tempo, then go play and forget about it.

TOM

End of discussion-----till next time !!!

According to Golfworks (link below), adding weight at the head end will soften the shaft flex. The general rule of thumb is -1cpm (1/10 flex softer) per 2 gm added weight.

[url="http://www.golfworks.com/article.asp?ai=14"]http://www.golfworks...ticle.asp?ai=14[/url]

I had a very noticeable pull with 2 of my wedges when switching from lead tape to tip weights. Both required almost 10 grams of weight which is quite a bit. I have to disagree on both subjects based on personal experience and the laws of physics. A club head is designed to be balanced and adding weight to the hosel, especially 8 grams or more, can certainly create a noticeable difference in balance. If this wasn't true then you wouldn't see sliding weights on clubs. This is something robot testing couldn't possibly show. Robots don't feel. They just do what they're programmed to do. As far as shaft flex goes, adding weight to the head of a club will absolutely soften the flex. I also have experienced this 1st hand. Not trying to ruffle feathers by reviving an old thread but I completely disagree.

I had a very noticeable pull with 2 of my wedges when switching from lead tape to tip weights. Both required almost 10 grams of weight which is quite a bit. I have to disagree on both subjects based on personal experience and the laws of physics. A club head is designed to be balanced and adding weight to the hosel, especially 8 grams or more, can certainly create a noticeable difference in balance. If this wasn't true then you wouldn't see sliding weights on clubs. This is something robot testing couldn't possibly show. Robots don't feel. They just do what they're programmed to do.

Your reasoning is flawed. The sliding weights in drivers in fairways are designed to take advantage of gear effect. Gear effect causes changes to the spin of the ball (and thus the flight) when the hit is offset from the head c.g. AND when the head c.g. is far enough behind the face (rearward c.g.). Irons don't have the c.g. far enough behind the face to produce any significant amount of gear effect. And gear effect changes (if they existed) certainly would show up in robot testing. Both people and robots are subject to the same impact physics.

Now with people, a change in total head weight (and sw) can change the feel fo the club and any change to the feel has the potential to change the players swing and thus the results in a wide variety of ways (such as a pull). But that's not what was being discussed above and has nothing to do with the 'balance' for the head or any move of the head c.g. location.

As far as shaft flex goes, adding weight to the head of a club will absolutely soften the flex. I also have experienced this 1st hand. Not trying to ruffle feathers by reviving an old thread but I completely disagree.

You should read Tom's post a bit more carefully.

Now as to the shaft's flex feel from hosel weighting/tip weighting, that depends on two things - 1) how stiff is the shaft in relation to the golfer's TRANSITION FORCE and DOWNSWING AGGRESSIVENESS; 2) what swingweight at what length that tip weight ended up making the club to be.

 

The less stiff the shaft and more forceful/aggressive the transition/tempo, the more the golfer could think the shaft were a little more flexible when larger amounts of weight are put in the hosel. But the mitigating factor in this is what did the swingweight become for how much weight put into the shaft tip/hosel? If you had a light head to begin with or a shorter length to begin with and an addition of 12 grams in the tip put the swingweight at D2, then that shaft is NOT going to feel more flexible than it was designed to be. But if the addition of weight put the swingweight up to say D6, then that is going to be a headweight feel that in the hands of a strong transition player is going to feel as if it is more flexible. But to a smooth transition player, they won;t notice a thing.

Question: if flex is measured from the butt and expressed in cpm's why do the ratings go down if I add weight to the head?

With a difference in read out of cpm's (at least on my machine) It makes sense to me that the tip of the shaft can be softened by adding weight.

But the overall bending profile of the shaft probably will be same.

--

I remember having hard time with a KBS Tour S. At the time I played this shaft with a lighter head in the long irons. I could not load the shaft.

But a friend of mine played the same shaft, same length with R Bladez Tour. These heads are heavy. The difference in heads was 11 grams but the shaft reacted completely different just prior to impact. A deep swishing sound with the RBladez. I could only relate the difference to rigidity of the shaft; not to balance of the clubs.

--

Counterweights also soften the shaft too imo.

Two Irons,

One having 6 grams of lead tape behind the face, the other a 6 gram shaft weight.

Zero difference in CG based on what I read above. Cosmetic difference only

Question: if flex is measured from the butt and expressed in cpm's why do the ratings go down if I add weight to the head?

With a difference in read out of cpm's (at least on my machine) It makes sense to me that the tip of the shaft can be softened by adding weight.

But the overall bending profile of the shaft probably will be same.

--

I remember having hard time with a KBS Tour S. At the time I played this shaft with a lighter head in the long irons. I could not load the shaft.

But a friend of mine played the same shaft, same length with R Bladez Tour. These heads are heavy. The difference in heads was 11 grams but the shaft reacted completely different just prior to impact. A deep swishing sound with the RBladez. I could only relate the difference to rigidity of the shaft; not to balance of the clubs.

 

--

Counterweights also soften the shaft too imo.

Yes its correct that adding 1 SW point makes a drop of 1 CPM, so if you add 4 SW point from D2 to D6, . its juts like Tom tried to explain, players with a fast tempo, and a heavy load of the shaft from transition down to a late release, he might feel that slight difference, while most players would not load the shaft hard enough to notice any difference at all.

That means one thing is what we can measure with a cpm reader, but what we are able to feel is individual, and depending on how we swing that club, and then we have to pay attention to what Stuart is writing, a change of feel might cause a change of swing = different ball flight.

If we all responded like a robot, 4 SWP would make a difference to APEX of 4 feet or a tad more than a yard, and even skilled players vary more up and down in apex than 1 yard, so it would be hard for anyone to SEE a difference, unless it was on a computer screen and return numbers came from a Trackman, and even then, we cant expect the difference for humans to be equal with a robot, we are only a bunch of individuals, a robot is just what we program him to be or to do.

Agreed. Going from d2 to d6 is quite a lot. Any player will sense that alteration in balance stronger than the change of the tip flexing.

From the way I see it the topic poster will also have a similar effect of soft-stepping as Rosco writes.

Placebo effect- literally takes more than 20 grams for any golfer to begin to notice a discernible difference in performance. Now if you went too heavy you may be pulling them bc you went too heavy SW but not because you changed shaft flex or moved CG.

Placebo effect- literally takes more than 20 grams for any golfer to begin to notice a discernible difference in performance. Now if you went too heavy you may be pulling them bc you went too heavy SW but not because you changed shaft flex or moved CG.

100% Correct. The mind is a powerful thing... ;)

Will start a new topic tomorrow with a poll on the advantages of hard- and soft stepping.

I believe these exist.

Most irons use 7 g jumps in weight, 8 g would be roughly a soft step which should change flex by 1/3 of a flex. I doubt you would notice it unless you were playing too soft of a shaft to begin with.

Will start a new topic tomorrow with a poll on the advantages of hard- and soft stepping.

I believe these exist.

Sure but SS or HS one time isn't going to do a thing- you need to do it 2 or more times to produce an effect.

Back to topic!

I read Mr. Wishon's post very carefully. It was the original answer on the post saying tip weights have "zero effect" on feel. I have 2 Cobra Tour Trusty wedges which had KBS 610 shafts in them. Originally I had lead tape on them to achieve the D3 swing weight I wanted. I had these wedges dialed in and was hitting them better than ever. Not liking the look of the lead tape I decided to pull the shafts and install tip weights. Each wedge required almost 10 grams but I was able to achieve the exact same swing weight. Same club head, same shaft, same length, same grip, same swing weight... completely different results.

Early this year I made a grip change. I used Karma white velvet grips and decided to try the Lamkin Crossline ACE. Both were listed at 52 grams. My 1st and only round with the new grips was a disaster. Every club in the bag felt head heavy. I saw the same results as I did with S vs. X flex shafts, a big pull and the inability to cut the ball. Put the old grips back on and life was good. After weighing each grip individually it turned out that the Both grips were listed incorrectly. There was a 4 gram difference.

My point is that I saw significant changes in both examples. To say that there is no noticeable change is simply naive.

 

12 grams put in the shaft tip or at the bottom of the hosel bore will move the center of gravity 1/8" toward the weight.

TOM

Does the reverse also stand true? That is, extracting 12 grams from the hosel by sawing it down and/or drilling the bore a little deeper will move the center of gravity 1/8" away from the hosel and towards the toe of the club?

Thx for any clues.