I've taken more from Golf than I've given back, and I intend to change that...

I'm sure some of you have seen the video where Hogan says something to the effect of "I've taken more from Golf than I've given back, and I intend to change that"

One thing that strikes me about these Golf forums, and why I usually stay away is the negativity and the "I know something you don't know" attitudes that prevail most of the time. There's even some people on here that will go asking everyone questions to help their own game, but then refuse to help others or proclaim their so called "secrets," as theirs to keep.

I've never seen anything like this in any other sport. It makes you think that sometimes people's motivation to get better is to place themselves on a pedestal rather than to get better. All this to say I want to state an opinion on the topic: Hogan NEVER denied anyone any secrets, all he did was dispel the myth that you can give someone a piece of information and that it will immediately translate into a good golf swing. This is why he only dealt with people that were serious about the game. Sure he may have kept his mechanics a secret during his playing days, but that's completely understandable given how competitive he was...

AJC - Please have some concept that when you sign up as a student of an instructor, and that instructor is EARNING his livelihood by giving lessons and guiding students with hard-learned information, it is then not your place as the student to take everything you learn in that lesson and then go YAK YAK YAK, BLAB BLAB BLAB in public fora everything that teacher has shared.

If you do, you are breaching a fair bit of trust of that teacher who is trying hard to earn his living. That would be an incredibly pompous thing and a great disrespect to those who are teaching for a living. Some teachers have invested a lot of time and have worked very hard to simplify their understandings for people, and they deserve to have their students keep coming to them.

I for one will respect their ability to continue to earn their livelihoods as teachers.

Hogan knew many things, and there were things he shared only with his inner circle, that werre handed down in private, and it was not a big love festival to just share information that was earned the hard way... just listen to Jackie Burke:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgqH4dwEAFM[/media]

"Leave him alone. Leave him dumb, and alone" - Ben Hogan.

I will say that if you want to understand Hogan, Fats is a great person to learn from... [b]He's easy to find on here. [/b]

Geoff Jones has a hard-earned reputation and folllowing also.

Bradley Hughes has a great effective program of drills also (bhughesgolf).

My perspective.

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1347977451' post='5656967']
AJC - Please have some concept that when you sign up as a student of an instructor, and that instructor is EARNING his livelihood by giving lessons and guiding students with hard-learned information, it is then not your place as the student to take everything you learn in that lesson and then go YAK YAK YAK, BLAB BLAB BLAB in public fora everything that teacher has shared.

If you do, you are breaching a fair bit of trust of that teacher who is trying hard to earn his living. That would be an incredibly pompous thing and a great disrespect to those who teaching for a living. Some teachers have invested a lot of time and have worked very hard to simplify their understandings for people, and they deserve to have their students keep coming to them.

I for one will respect their ability to continue to earn their livelihoods as teachers.

Hogan knew many things, and there were things he shared only with his inner circle, that werre handed down in private, and it was not a big love festival to just share information that was earned the hard way... just listen to Jackie Burke:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgqH4dwEAFM[/media]

"Leave him alone. Leave him dumb, and alone" - Ben Hogan.

I will say that if you want to understand Hogan, Fats is a great person to learn from... [b]He's easy to find on here. [/b]

Geoff Jones has a hard-earned reputuation and folllowing also.

My perspective.
[/quote]

Fair, enough - my perspective is different than yours. I wasn't talking about myself, so don't take this as a demand for Hogan info.

I've read everything there is to know about the legends. I know, their so called "secrets," but as you mentioned- simplifying them and applying them is the hard part...and that's what nobody can you do for you, outside of yourself - in my opinion. Throwing out all these buzz words does nothing for golfers.

In my opinion Golf instruction should not be a business the way coaching basketball or any other sports isn't a business. You pay people for their time and their willingness to help you understand concepts, not their so called "secrets." That may be idealistic but it's true nonetheless, at least for me.

And you're wrong about Hogan, he gave EVERYTHING TO US in 5 lessons, he just didn't go out of his way to stress anything (outside of CAPS) because he felt that if you worked hard enough, they were simple concepts that anyone could adapt. Jackie Burke is talking about a time when Hogan was competing. I've read everything on Hogan and he gave his secrets to plenty of people...in private, he didn't pretend OWN any of it...he just wanted a sign that you were serious.

Sevam and the secret in the dirt site is a great example of people that can make money and at the same time give everything they can to help you understand these so called secrets. There's nothing wrong with making money off golf, there is something wrong with making it JUST a business, IMO.

If you're paying an instructor for his time and not his knowledge, you're paying for nothing more than supervised practice. Unfortunately, that's what you get from most.

Hogan gave many clues, dropped a lot of hints in many different places over many decades - Power Golf, 5L, Life, Golf Digest, HoF induction speech, Venturi interview, Seitz interview, etc, but he didn't give it all away in one place. I think that Hogan wanted people to figure it out, but wanted to make it very difficult. He dug it out of the dirt and wanted others to as well

It's a tad ironic that you are first railing about the [i][b]"'I know something you don't know' attitudes that prevail most of the time[/b][/i]," and at the same time you are completely writing off any possibility that a good teacher might have some insight, some inside knowledge, or some way of applying that knowledge that you don't already know (e.g., [i]"I've read everything there is to know about the legends. I know, their so called "secrets,").[/i]

Everything is not in the books, man. The 5L book was addressed to the 30% of game that is the physical swing, and was to help guys break 80 by understanding what Hogan thought were his fundamentals. If you listen to Burke, he had lots of other ideas that were well thought through and that weren't shared... like his approach to the other 70% of the game and more thoughts on the physical parts too...

I'm not selling anything, so it's just a hobby and a passion for me... but I am respectful of those who are earning their livings teaching.

AJC, Maybe I'm naive or just haven't been paying attention, but, with regards to this site, I've often thought the opposite. I'm surprised that so many professionals spend as much time as they do answering questions for people that they will never meet. Obviously, there can a promotional aspect to some degree, but some on here don't need the name recognition and some spend enough time posting that I doubt they could parlay that into profit. Hell, Tom Wishon will write 5 paragraphs on clubmaking and Russc will answer, with detail, 20 questions in a day. That's not a profitable strategy. Maybe I'm wrong, but there are still a lot of people that benefit from the information they give.
As far as the examples you give of people that are one-way with information, it takes all kinds. There are always going to be some knuckleheads in the mix.

"Leave him alone. Leave him dumb, and alone" - Ben Hogan.

With all due respect, that is so wrong to quote him out of context, that is so not what Ben Hogan was about DS - this comment was made with respect to a fellow competitor, and who can blame him? I wouldn't give advice to someone I'm competing against either...but beginners and hackers are nowhere near ready for the level of detail Hogan was speaking about when he addressed the issue w/ Jackie back then. All you can ask of yourself is to give fellow golfers a few pearls to protect them from themselves. Going down the wrong path can take all the fun out of the game...

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1347979091' post='5657149']
It's a tad ironic that you are first railing about the [i][b]"'I know something you don't know' attitudes that prevail most of the time[/b][/i]," and at the same time you are completely writing off any possibility that a good teacher might have some insight, some inside knowledge, or some way of applying that knowledge that you don't already know (e.g., [i]"I've read everything there is to know about the legends. I know, their so called "secrets,").[/i]

Everything is not in the books, man. The 5L book was addressed to the 30% of game that is the physical swing, and was to help guys break 80 by understanding what Hogan thought were his fundamentals. If you listen to Burke, he had lots of other ideas that were well thought through and that weren't shared... like his approach to the other 70% of the game and more thoughts on the physical parts too...

I'm not selling anything, so it's just a hobby and a passion for me... but I am respectful of those who are earning their livings teaching.
[/quote]

what do you want me to tell you, I do. It's not arrogance it's applied study. I stand by my opinion, you will never catch me telling someone I have a secret and I'm not telling you - if you ask the right question - I'll answer it to be best of my ability.

[quote name='Crab Daddy' timestamp='1347979094' post='5657151']
AJC, Maybe I'm naive or just haven't been paying attention, but, with regards to this site, I've often thought the opposite. I'm surprised that so many professionals spend as much time as they do answering questions for people that they will never meet. Obviously, there can a promotional aspect to some degree, but some on here don't need the name recognition and some spend enough time posting that I doubt they could parlay that into profit. Hell, Tom Wishon will write 5 paragraphs on clubmaking and Russc will answer, with detail, 20 questions in a day. That's not a profitable strategy. Maybe I'm wrong, but there are still a lot of people that benefit from the information they give.
As far as the examples you give of people that are one-way with information, it takes all kinds. There are always going to be some knuckleheads in the mix.
[/quote]

No, you're right, I wasn't really trying to generalize, but I prob did - it just struck me that sometimes you find people asking questions about their swing to some, and then denying the information to others....

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1347978870' post='5657121']
If your paying an instructor for his time and not his knowledge, you're paying for nothing more than supervised practice. Unfortunately, that's what you get from most.

Hogan gave many clues, dropped a lot of hints in many different places over many decades - Power Golf, 5L, Life, Golf Digest, HoF induction speech, Venturi interview, Seitz interview, etc, but he didn't give it all away in one place. I think that Hogan wanted people to figure it out, but wanted to make it very difficult. He dug it out of the dirt and wanted others to as well
[/quote]

Absolutely. Digging it out of the dirt is the only way...but I think he recognized this and acted accordingly. I don't think he kept info to himself with a sense of entitlement though...

Come on, I gave you the whole context of the interview, AJC.

If you understand what Burke is saying, he's saying there are fellow-competitors who Hogan did share helpful information with (at least in his later years), but some he did not.

There is a legacy of guys like Gardner Dickenson, Jackie Burke, Dick Metz, Tommy Bolt, Ken Venturi, Mike Souchak... there's an inner circle of guys that Hogan respected and guys who were working hard on Tour that he did help out, and there was an older generation of guys and contemporaries who helped Hogan out or who Hogan learned from... Henry Picard, Sam Byrd, Bill Melhorn, Jimmy Demaret, Craig Wood, etc.

You think he told the ghost writers all the secrets for public consumption, or you think maybe he shared some things with guys he respected who earned his trust and who were working as hard as he was?

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1347978870' post='5657121']
If you're paying an instructor for his time and not his knowledge, you're paying for nothing more than supervised practice. Unfortunately, that's what you get from most.

Hogan gave many clues, dropped a lot of hints in many different places over many decades - Power Golf, 5L, Life, Golf Digest, HoF induction speech, Venturi interview, Seitz interview, etc, but he didn't give it all away in one place. I think that Hogan wanted people to figure it out, but wanted to make it very difficult. He dug it out of the dirt and wanted others to as well
[/quote]

YIKES, now wait a minute. The Hawk's HoF induction speech? WHERE? lol time to give back HoganFan (j/k)

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1347979783' post='5657215']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1347978870' post='5657121']
If your paying an instructor for his time and not his knowledge, you're paying for nothing more than supervised practice. Unfortunately, that's what you get from most.

Hogan gave many clues, dropped a lot of hints in many different places over many decades - Power Golf, 5L, Life, Golf Digest, HoF induction speech, Venturi interview, Seitz interview, etc, but he didn't give it all away in one place. I think that Hogan wanted people to figure it out, but wanted to make it very difficult. He dug it out of the dirt and wanted others to as well
[/quote]

Absolutely. Digging it out of the dirt is the only way...but I think he recognized this and acted accordingly.[b] I don't think he kept info to himself with a sense of entitlement though...[/b]
[/quote]

Of course he did! Because, inf fact he [u][b]was [/b][/u]entitled to earn a paycheck from writing about what he knew.

He got a handsome payday from Life Magazine for them to hype and then publish the Hogan Secret exclusive article (and they hyped the heck out of that)...

Then Sports Illustrated pimped the exclusive (Herb wind and Anthony Ravielli did the SI article) and that's how 5 Lessons was born -- the settlement of a threatened law suit from Hogan -- resut: a whole instructional series with a much [u][b]BIGGER [/b][/u]payday for Hogan...

Then there are the stories (from credible sources) that long after 5L, Hogan wanted an EVEN BIGGER payday to write more of what he knew...

He was [u][b]entitled [/b][/u]to earn a living... and he did.. and so are today's teachers.

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1347979926' post='5657247']
Come on, I gave you the whole context of the interview, AJC.

If you understand what Burke is saying, he's saying there are fellow-competitors who Hogan did share helpful information with (at least in his later years), but some he did not.

There is a legacy of guys like Gardner Dickenson, Jackie Burke, Dick Metz, Tommy Bolt, Ken Venturi, Mike Souchak... there's an inner circle of guys that Hogan respected and guys who were working hard on Tour that he did help out, and there was an older generation of guys and contemporaries who helped Hogan out or who Hogan learned from... Henry Picard, Sam Byrd, Bill Melhorn, Jimmy Demaret, Craig Wood, etc.

You think he told the ghost writers all the secrets for public consumption, or you think maybe he shared some things with guys he respected who earned his trust and who were working as hard as he was?
[/quote]

Hey man, it's cool...you have the right to safe guard anything you hold dear - just don't see the point (outside of $$ I guess)

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1347980433' post='5657291']
[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1347979783' post='5657215']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1347978870' post='5657121']
If your paying an instructor for his time and not his knowledge, you're paying for nothing more than supervised practice. Unfortunately, that's what you get from most.

Hogan gave many clues, dropped a lot of hints in many different places over many decades - Power Golf, 5L, Life, Golf Digest, HoF induction speech, Venturi interview, Seitz interview, etc, but he didn't give it all away in one place. I think that Hogan wanted people to figure it out, but wanted to make it very difficult. He dug it out of the dirt and wanted others to as well
[/quote]

Absolutely. Digging it out of the dirt is the only way...but I think he recognized this and acted accordingly.[b] I don't think he kept info to himself with a sense of entitlement though...[/b]
[/quote]

Of course he did! Because, inf fact he [u][b]was [/b][/u]entitled to earn a paycheck from writing about what he knew.

He got a handsome payday from Life Magazine for them to hype and then publish the Hogan Secret exclusive article (and they hyped the heck out of that)...

Then Sports Illustrated pimped the exclusive and that's how 5 Lessons was born -- the settlement of a threatened law suit was a much [u][b]BIGGER [/b][/u]payday for Hogan...

Then there are the stories (from credible sources) of Hogan wanting an EVEN BIGGER payday to write more of what he knew...

He was [u][b]entitled [/b][/u]to earn a living... and he did.. and so are todays teachers.
[/quote]

yes they are, yes they are...

and I am entitled to speak on what ever topic I want, because I've taught myself - wouldn't be disrespecting anyone. To each his own man. I respect your opinion...

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1347980329' post='5657287']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1347978870' post='5657121']
If you're paying an instructor for his time and not his knowledge, you're paying for nothing more than supervised practice. Unfortunately, that's what you get from most.
L
Hogan gave many clues, dropped a lot of hints in many different places over many decades - Power Golf, 5L, Life, Golf Digest, HoF induction speech, Venturi interview, Seitz interview, etc, but he didn't give it all away in one place. I think that Hogan wanted people to figure it out, but wanted to make it very difficult. He dug it out of the dirt and wanted others to as well
[/quote]

YIKES, now wait a minute. The Hawk's HoF induction speech? WHERE? lol time to give back HoganFan (j/k)
[/quote]

Wrx'r McTee (creator of the 5L interactive iPad app) is a huge Hogan student and nut who put together a Hogan calendar about 4-5 years ago. He put Hogans speech in it. Believe it or not, hogan gave a very detailed analysis of one part of Harry Vardon's swing that had to do with this recently popular subject of supination. Now go dig it out of the dirt! Lol

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1347980607' post='5657305']
[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1347980329' post='5657287']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1347978870' post='5657121']
If you're paying an instructor for his time and not his knowledge, you're paying for nothing more than supervised practice. Unfortunately, that's what you get from most.
L
Hogan gave many clues, dropped a lot of hints in many different places over many decades - Power Golf, 5L, Life, Golf Digest, HoF induction speech, Venturi interview, Seitz interview, etc, but he didn't give it all away in one place. I think that Hogan wanted people to figure it out, but wanted to make it very difficult. He dug it out of the dirt and wanted others to as well
[/quote]

YIKES, now wait a minute. The Hawk's HoF induction speech? WHERE? lol time to give back HoganFan (j/k)
[/quote]

Wrx'r McTee (creator of the 5L interactive iPad app) is a huge Hogan student and nut who put together a Hogan calendar about 4-5 years ago. He put Hogans speech in it. Believe it or not, hogan gave a very detailed analysis of one part of Harry Vardons swing that had to do with this recently popular subject of supination
[/quote]

I believe it, but wow I had had no idea about this transcript. If I can find it, it's going up on my Hogan wall. Thanks for the info, you made my day.

I guess that's what this all boils down to, I have a very vivid picture of a man that was so much more than just a golfer, and I just do not believe he didn't have everyone's best interest at heart when he chose to say or not say certain things.

When you said "I've taken more away from golf than I've given back", I was kinda hoping maybe you were giving away clubs for free on BSG or to some charity.

[quote name='Swisstrader98' timestamp='1347980845' post='5657337']
When you said "I've taken more away from golf than I've given back", I was kinda hoping maybe you were giving away clubs for free on BSG or to some charity.
[/quote]

lol or that...

here's the interview:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEpxn8yNY-A[/media]

"I'D LIKE TO PUT BACK MUCH MORE THAN I'VE SUBTRACTED. AND GOD WILLING I WILL" - this is the Hogan I know.

His company was the original sponsor of what is now the Web.com tour. That was his major give back. It was huge, IMO

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1347980434' post='5657293']
Hey man, it's cool...you have the right to safe guard anything you hold dear - just don't see the point (outside of $$ I guess)
[/quote]

I respect your opinion too... just trying to get you to see the point.

I have nothing to be gained, BUT if I am paying a teacher for his knowledge, I'm of the belief that I am not going to undercut his ability to earn his living by telling untold hundreds of perspective students and potential customers of his on the interwebs exactly what he told me. That would be a dickish move of the highest order. So, that's part A of my point.

Part B of my point, is that there was a lot of stuff that wasn't written down.

Part C of my point, is that great teachers are here and they available to help.

You may call that an "I know something you don't know attitude", but I call it a self-imposed restraint on my own freedom of speech out of respect for my teachers.

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1347981527' post='5657421']
His company was the original sponsor of what is now the Web.com tour. That was his major give back. It was huge, IMO
[/quote]

Yes, what is now Callaway (but not nearly the same thing), I believe. I just believe Hogan always spoke in riddles, and even tho he did give back in that sense, I think he meant that he put together his swing by copying and learning from other pros and he intended to give back by doing the same, and I feel he did - as much as time and health allowed him.

btw, you wouldn't happen to have the transcript of the HOF speech?

Would not be appropriate for me to scan in McTees calendar and post it. Not even sure where I have it stored ATM.

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1347981914' post='5657471']
Would not be appropriate for me to scan in McTees calendar and post it. Not even sure where I have it stored ATM.
[/quote]

I see, that's fair. Thanks anyway. Is this something he sold? meaning could I find it on ebay, say? if nothing else, I'd take just a summary of what he said, what you perceive as a "clue" - no need to go into detail, just want a reference to get the wheels spinning.

* got it! seen this before just thought it had swing sequences tho...I owe u

http://www.amazon.com/Ben-Hogan-Collection-2008-Calendar/dp/B000WJ0GLW
The Ben Hogan Collection 2008 Calendar: New Instructional Swing Sequences

Just looked for the iPad app. Found one that's a sort of 3D view along with text and one that does some sort of swing analysis between your swing and Hogans. Is what you're referencing one of these or something else?

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1347980607' post='5657305']
[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1347980329' post='5657287']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1347978870' post='5657121']
If you're paying an instructor for his time and not his knowledge, you're paying for nothing more than supervised practice. Unfortunately, that's what you get from most.
L
Hogan gave many clues, dropped a lot of hints in many different places over many decades - Power Golf, 5L, Life, Golf Digest, HoF induction speech, Venturi interview, Seitz interview, etc, but he didn't give it all away in one place. I think that Hogan wanted people to figure it out, but wanted to make it very difficult. He dug it out of the dirt and wanted others to as well
[/quote]

YIKES, now wait a minute. The Hawk's HoF induction speech? WHERE? lol time to give back HoganFan (j/k)
[/quote]

Wrx'r McTee (creator of the 5L interactive iPad app) is a huge Hogan student and nut who put together a Hogan calendar about 4-5 years ago. He put Hogans speech in it. Believe it or not, hogan gave a very detailed analysis of one part of Harry Vardon's swing that had to do with this recently popular subject of supination. Now go dig it out of the dirt! Lol
[/quote]

Isn't golf instruction personal?

I mean, there is only one guy on this planet I trust to tweak my swing. Sure he knows a bunch of things, I know a bunch of things too but I gladly pay him whenever I think I need some tuning. There are no universal secrets anyone is missing out on at this point imo, only what works for you.

On topic, I think Hogan gave more to the game then many realize.

Big difference in mindset from recreational players to professionals aj. Having met enough of the latter, they dont give a rat's arse about other people while playing. Teachers are a different story, but they gotta make money too

*Yep good points drew

[quote name='allycat' timestamp='1347982660' post='5657545']
Isn't golf instruction personal?

I mean, there is only one guy on this planet I trust to tweak my swing. Sure he knows a bunch of things, I know a bunch of things too but I gladly pay him whenever I think I need some tuning. [i][b]There are no universal secrets anyone is missing out on at this point imo, only what works for you. [/b][/i]

On topic, I think Hogan gave more to the game then many realize.
[/quote]
so true...

[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1347982757' post='5657563']
Big difference in mindset from recreational players to professionals aj. Having met enough of the latter, they dont give a rat's arse about other people while playing. Teachers are a different story, but they gotta make money too

*Yep good points drew
[/quote]

well, with good reason - they're playing for money. I just think it's hilarious that anyone can "own" a swing concept tho - professionals are functioning much like Hogan did when he was competing. I mean as nice a guy as Byron Nelson was, I'll bet part of Hogan's resentment towards him was that he kept certain things from Hogan - Ben had to go out and find them on his own. Everything goes out the window when you're playing for glory...

If you're paying an instructor for his time and not his knowledge, you're paying for nothing more than supervised practice. Unfortunately, that's what you get from most.

L

Hogan gave many clues, dropped a lot of hints in many different places over many decades - Power Golf, 5L, Life, Golf Digest, HoF induction speech, Venturi interview, Seitz interview, etc, but he didn't give it all away in one place. I think that Hogan wanted people to figure it out, but wanted to make it very difficult. He dug it out of the dirt and wanted others to as well

 

YIKES, now wait a minute. The Hawk's HoF induction speech? WHERE? lol time to give back HoganFan (j/k)

 

Wrx'r McTee (creator of the 5L interactive iPad app) is a huge Hogan student and nut who put together a Hogan calendar about 4-5 years ago. He put Hogans speech in it. Believe it or not, hogan gave a very detailed analysis of one part of Harry Vardon's swing that had to do with this recently popular subject of supination. Now go dig it out of the dirt! Lol

How COOL are these Hogan Fan? u prob have them