Isn't it interesting Hogan and the closest pivoter to him are long drive guys?

I've been studying Hogan's and Woodland's pivots a lot lately. Woodland because I think he's closest to Hogan and there's a bunch of HS video of him.

I read the talent code and believe(d) in "chunking (breaking the swing into small parts)" and slo-mo training.

But when it comes to the pivot, especially in the down swing, I'm beginning to wonder if slo-mo training and chuncking are helpful. I think they might even be damaging in this area.

First of all, you can't even get into the "positions" Hogan and Woodland get into in unless your swinging full speed.

Secondly, both of these guys developed their pivots by learning to hit the ball powerful. I highly doubt Woodland ever trained low speed based on watching his violent action in full speed. And we all know Hogan was trying to win long drive competitions as a kid, so I'm guessing the same applies to him.

I remember reading several years ago that in the 50's, Hogan had a device that he wore around his waist that would read out the speed of his hip rotation and that the faster he moved 'em, the further he hit it.

You can turn an umbrella fastest if you twist/turn the handle...you will note that the umbrella flaps will lag behind too...nice...

Slo mo training is used to give your brain time to be aware of everything (breathing, muscles). Swinging fast is like testing the brain to see if it can act subconsciously. Also swinging fast repetitively will build muscle, hit 100 balls in 20 minutes, it's a work out. The problem with the approach of only hitting balls is you could be developing the wrong muscles. Slo mo training should assist in training the proper muscles. If you don't know which ones to train, find someone who does or experiment.

In tai chi (and many other fight training) you go through slow movements with increased awareness of your body, mind, and muscle activity. But, you still have to work out (lift weights, stretch, spar, etc.) to build up muscle strength. If you are not strong and flexible it wont matter that you know what to do. Slo motion training will only go so far, but, it will go far.

Obviously there is resistance in the golf swing, but there is resistance in boxing, karate also. Place your hand against a wall, push against the wall, be aware of what muscles you use. Take your hand away from the wall and use those muscles to push against the air, gently use them, too much strain can hurt. That's basically the idea. Grab a golf club and hook the head around something sturdy, stand in a golf stance and pull against it like you are swinging, pretty close to what muscles you need to use for that section of the swing. Use your breathing to add power, there's a reason fighters exhale when they strike (they are using the muscles around their diaphragm).

It's all in hand speed. We just need to learn how to use our body to speed up the handle, not to speed up the club head.

That hand speed is another result you seeing in those videos.

So how do you suggest we speed up the handle?

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1348561561' post='5690735']
That hand speed is another result you seeing in those videos.

So how do you suggest we speed up the handle?
[/quote]

Way too complicated to explain by words is my experience, but I can see lateral speed (toward the target) of right shoulder got big affect to that. The complicated part then is how to balance that with your left side action and keep it working opposite direction. Also big thing is how to time the acceleration and keep the club head close to the center of rotation as long as possible.

What's wrong with Hogan's advise of turning the hips? You know, turning the handle of an open umbrella instead of the flaps itself...

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1348566165' post='5690789']
What's wrong with Hogan's advise of turning the hips? You know, turning the handle of an open umbrella instead of the flaps itself...
[/quote]

Club is not connected to the hips. I have seen too many players using lot of hip speed and lack of shoulder speed. Rotating hips is not at all the answer, even you got to rotate them to get to the good position to hit. They have to be in position that allows you hit right way with upper body but not at all the main thing.

And I will never again teach someone turning their hips. One of big mistakes I made earlier.

This is a great thread. I think the first thing ti keep in mind is the total difference of intentions from Hogan's are to this one, before back in the day you had to pretty much bust it in order to be able to play for two reasons, first you needed pretty much as much distance as you could get at least with the long clubs which wasn't easy and secondly and really more importantly you had to get the angle of descent of the shot as vertical as possible into the greens and often times into the fairways to keep the ball from running out into bad places. This doesn't mean guys were killing it and sending it into the sky though, it means they were using proper mechanics and aggressive moves and the best players had spectacular trajectories and ballflights that came from among other things great pivots.

Nowadays with the new balls that take off like rockets straight in the air and ultralight clubs speed and distance is abundant and a lot of modern method is all about taking speed and compression out of the shot to keep it on Planet Earth like Leadbetter does with everybody. That sucks for guys which don't have a lot of speed or power which really is most players but these are the times we live in, the intentions of most instruction have totally changed and are really out to lunch and a lot of it is because of the ammo and clubs.

If you want to understand the pivot you have to understand proper mechanics which no one even discusses anymore, pivot is one of the three basic principles of proper mechanics and is critical of course but you have to study the total package and put in context. That incidentally is where I disagree with Coyle BTW, you need proper thesis instead of just tearing everything apart. Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice with a proper goal makes perfect and the 10k idea is a little generalized for my taste.

Great discussion topic

It is impossible to understate to difference in how the balls from the 1970s and earlier (natural balata rubber cover) compressed and spun and curved compared to the modern ball. Irrigation and improved agronomy has changed the turf conditions dramatically. When hogan and nelson and other greats from the emergent steel shaft era were starting out, many "courses" in the south had compressed sand greens. They played regularly on hardscrabble, rough and tumble courses, the conditions of which would provoke a torrent of complaints from modern players who expect a lot more. Divots sprayed like IED fragments, not beaver pelts, and you might break a bone if you buried the leading edge into the dirt. Greens were usually ROCK hard by modern standards.

The vintage ball required both dynamic thrust, precision control of the club face, and an angle of attack to match the desired trajectory. While the same can be said about the modern ball, the implements and ammo and turf have changed very dramatically.

Look at how the soles of golf clubs have changed. Hogan precisions and power thrusts, or bobby jones era clubs had FLAT soles, sharp leading edges. Starting in the 1970s clubs added more bounce and more rolled leading edges and more upright lie angles to help players adapt to softer course conditions and harder cover balls that spun less. Or look how putting styles have changed completely from the 1970s and earlier until today. Who now sets up pigeon toed and strokes it with a lever strike with a fulcrum point at the butt of the shaft? NOBODY. The fulcrum point in the modern putting stroke is up near the C6 vertebrae, because the consistency of the greens allows it.

The repertoire of shots required by the classic era stars was just immensely different. They had to be Shot Makers.

Good post, if you can tell me what the required move is with a ProV is other than a steep disconnected dump I'd be honored to know it. Rory has just about the only really good move with the superball I've seen & its still in the development stage.

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1348527410' post='5688203']
I remember reading several years ago that in the 50's, Hogan had a device that he wore around his waist that would read out the speed of his hip rotation and that the faster he moved 'em, the further he hit it.
[/quote]


I have a question about hip turn I've been monkeying with quite a bit. Kelvin Miyahira had a theory a while back about the spine engine of the golf swing. Basically he says the spine and the core are extremely powerful and they create the majority of rotation in the swing (that is an awful way to boil his theory down because it's much more detailed than that, but I don;t want to rehash the entire thing).

Anyway, when someone says turn the hips, I completely agree that the hips have to turn. But my question is what's the engine turning the hips? Is it the legs, spine, a combination of both?

From my personal experience, I can more effectively turn my hips if I let my core do the driving. The legs are still very active, but they are reacting to what my core is doing. I'm contrasting that with the legs driving the rotation of the core, which I think is much less effective.

Keep in mind, my recent swings I'm using the legs to drive everything, and I think that's one of my problems. Can't wait to test out this new stuff!

[quote name='CrashDavis' timestamp='1348581154' post='5691595']
Good post, if you can tell me what the required move is with a ProV is other than a steep disconnected dump I'd be honored to know it. Rory has just about the only really good move with the superball I've seen & its still in the development stage.
[/quote]

Cool! Good to see CrashD finally made it here! With real life tournament experience, he DEFINITELY knows his golf stuff! Lookin forward to your input on the mechanics of the swing.

[quote name='CrashDavis' timestamp='1348581154' post='5691595']
Good post, if you can tell me what the required move is with a ProV is other than a steep disconnected dump I'd be honored to know it. Rory has just about the only really good move with the superball I've seen & its still in the development stage.
[/quote]

Come on man - what about Woodland??

I like Quiros more if you're going the STUD route, Woodland has potential but that & $5 'll getcha a small Starbucks.. His turn is good but his connection is just about nonexistent and in turn he hits it miles but his flight isn't very good.

And BHSP I gave you an invite and you never even responded and it still stands, I'll lay down Lenny Bruce if you'll lay down Pee Wee Herman so ball is in your court.

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1348582693' post='5691783']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1348527410' post='5688203']
I remember reading several years ago that in the 50's, Hogan had a device that he wore around his waist that would read out the speed of his hip rotation and that the faster he moved 'em, the further he hit it.
[/quote]


I have a question about hip turn I've been monkeying with quite a bit. Kelvin Miyahira had a theory a while back about the spine engine of the golf swing. Basically he says the spine and the core are extremely powerful and they create the majority of rotation in the swing (that is an awful way to boil his theory down because it's much more detailed than that, but I don;t want to rehash the entire thing).

Anyway, when someone says turn the hips, I completely agree that the hips have to turn. But my question is what's the engine turning the hips? Is it the legs, spine, a combination of both?

From my personal experience, I can more effectively turn my hips if I let my core do the driving. The legs are still very active, but they are reacting to what my core is doing. I'm contrasting that with the legs driving the rotation of the core, which I think is much less effective.

Keep in mind, my recent swings I'm using the legs to drive everything, and I think that's one of my problems. Can't wait to test out this new stuff!
[/quote]

Funny, just last night I was having a poor ball striking range session. Came down to the last balls in the bucket and I decided to work on some pitching. Been working with Jones/Whitaker's pitching methods and I was working on the high floater wedge. Was making it work pretty good with my 60*, so I decided to try the same shot with my 56* and wedge. Could not get it to work at all. Going over Dan's vid in my head, he stressed the importance of being synced all the way through. Lately, I've been using the right shoulder as a focus point for my back swing, getting the right shoulder turning back behind me and taking me all the way to the top. Made a slight adjustment, made sure to start with the right shoulder going back, but then focused on letting the core take over almost immediately and bingo. Was hitting perfect high floater wedge's with the 56* and wedge. Hit some regular shot's with my wedge and 9 iron with the last couple balls in the bucket and my ball striking was 10 times better just focusing on the core to take me back after the initial take away.

[quote name='CrashDavis' timestamp='1348583913' post='5691969']
And BHSP I gave you an invite and you never even responded and it still stands, I'll lay down Lenny Bruce if you'll lay down Pee Wee Herman so ball is in your court.
[/quote]

Thanks. I got the invite CrashD. I'll stop by someday. Not till I've learned how to hit an iron. Had to look up Lenny Bruce...interesting guy. But I don't get the Pee Wee Harman part???

Anthony

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1348582693' post='5691783']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1348527410' post='5688203']
I remember reading several years ago that in the 50's, Hogan had a device that he wore around his waist that would read out the speed of his hip rotation and that the faster he moved 'em, the further he hit it.
[/quote]


I have a question about hip turn I've been monkeying with quite a bit. Kelvin Miyahira had a theory a while back about the spine engine of the golf swing. Basically he says the spine and the core are extremely powerful and they create the majority of rotation in the swing (that is an awful way to boil his theory down because it's much more detailed than that, but I don;t want to rehash the entire thing).

Anyway, when someone says turn the hips, I completely agree that the hips have to turn. But my question is what's the engine turning the hips? Is it the legs, spine, a combination of both?

[b]From my personal experience, I can more effectively turn my hips if I let my core do the driving. The legs are still very active, but they are reacting to what my core is doing. I'm contrasting that with the legs driving the rotation of the core, which I think is much less effective.[/b]

Keep in mind, my recent swings I'm using the legs to drive everything, and I think that's one of my problems. Can't wait to test out this new stuff!
[/quote]

The "spine" can't turn anything. Muscles contracting turn things. And it's not really "the hips" as they are just joints. It's the pelvis and lower spine that gets turned by the muscles that attach to them. "Core" muscles mostly. When they lead, they create the dynamic tension or as I've called it before "dynamic X-factor," that creates lag in the swing. You have it right, IMO.

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1348585403' post='5692145']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1348582693' post='5691783']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1348527410' post='5688203']
I remember reading several years ago that in the 50's, Hogan had a device that he wore around his waist that would read out the speed of his hip rotation and that the faster he moved 'em, the further he hit it.
[/quote]


I have a question about hip turn I've been monkeying with quite a bit. Kelvin Miyahira had a theory a while back about the spine engine of the golf swing. Basically he says the spine and the core are extremely powerful and they create the majority of rotation in the swing (that is an awful way to boil his theory down because it's much more detailed than that, but I don;t want to rehash the entire thing).

Anyway, when someone says turn the hips, I completely agree that the hips have to turn. But my question is what's the engine turning the hips? Is it the legs, spine, a combination of both?

[b]From my personal experience, I can more effectively turn my hips if I let my core do the driving. The legs are still very active, but they are reacting to what my core is doing. I'm contrasting that with the legs driving the rotation of the core, which I think is much less effective.[/b]

Keep in mind, my recent swings I'm using the legs to drive everything, and I think that's one of my problems. Can't wait to test out this new stuff!
[/quote]

The "spine" can't turn anything. Muscles contracting turn things. And it's not really "the hips" as they are just joints. It's the pelvis and lower spine that gets turned by the muscles that attach to them. "Core" muscles mostly. When they lead, they create the dynamic tension or as I've called it before "dynamic X-factor," that creates lag in the swing. You have it right, IMO.
[/quote]

OK cool.

.. When they lead, they create the dynamic tension or as I've called it before "dynamic X-factor," that creates lag in the swing...


That's not Hogan, that's Leadbetter, Hogan was max motion, max leverage and that had very little to do with differential. Only Mod guys are min motion max differential. You can create plenty of lag with minimal differential and the proof is Snead.

[quote name='CrashDavis' timestamp='1348581154' post='5691595']
Good post, if you can tell me what the required move is with a ProV is other than a steep disconnected dump I'd be honored to know it. Rory has just about the only really good move with the superball I've seen & its still in the development stage.
[/quote]

Arguably we're now in this period that can generally be defined by figuring out new "requirements" based on interpretations of Trackman data rather than eyesight... and some of that has led to completely wrong results like kinetic chain transfer from proximal to distal segments and the fallacy that a golf swing is like a closed system involving pendulum (most efficient move is to intentionally stop the proximal segments to produce more energy in the distal segments), this and other nonsense sounds good in a lab, ....but ... oh wait a second, you mean we can still add power during the swing... D'OH

Does not translate well to teaching, and the disasters continue...

So, the way the modern instruction proceeds is to divide the world into MAXXING out potential on the driver swing... which involves increasing positive Angle of Attack and makes Bubba the model of efficiency with a ball that spins less and flies flatter at the top and rolls out into the rough about 340 yards away.

Then, you have a shot out of the rough with either some form of gap wedge (because the clubs have all been delofted so there is no real pitching club left in the bag without filling that gap with a new big flanged gap wedge)... or perhaps on a par 5 hole, perhaps you pull hybrid. Regarding the second shot, then an upright with steep attack and dump (to take less "rough" on the way down to) is effective for scrambling. Maxx out the downward thrust, ball goes up and comes down steep, just like you said.

Basically, instead of putting thrust through the ball with woods through the mid-irons, like the oldtimers... we're now hitting lightweight slow pitch titanium and carbon fiber softball bat style upper cut home runs off the tee balls and then hitting downward dump and thrust steep mid-irons through wedges. That's the essence of the changes in the modern game from tee to green, IMHO of course.

Can't argue with that a bit, not one bit sir.

Hypothetical.. take every guy on tour 2012 & drop them all in 1945, gotta use 1945 gear & ammo but they got a year to prep for it and I'll even say they can take Trackman & all the gurus with them. Byron Nelson averaged 68.33 for that season, how many of the top 125 avg under 70 for that same season? How about under 72? 75?

Precious few. Maybe a young guy with some great talent like Rory or a maybe a somewhat flatter swinger like Duffner would make enough changes to adapt in a year to 1945 gear and ball, and give it a go, but they'd not have all the shots they'd need in a year on 1945 courses (cause they would not be near as straight as Byron) to average sub 70, let alone 68.33...

Maybe a guy with a great humble attitude like a Steve Stricker would be able to hold it together and adapt...

What's your take on the perceptions about Byron BTW? Is it a mis-comprehension (or total lack of comprehension) of his knee bend that makes Hogan so much more popular from an aesthetics perspective? His shorter carrer? The lack of hollywood backstory? Anyway, its hard to objectively argue against Byron when the Nelson vs. Hogan records are placed head-to-head in events.

Probably two things more than the rest, first the aesthetic by the masses who have no way of knowing how great his move was especially in his prime and more than that it was the fact that Byron for his whole life made himself completely available to pretty much the whole world, he was never aloof and he took time for everyone.

I learned to play when I was young from a contemporary of all those guys who was way good enough to play the tour but had no interest in going on the road plus he had a family but he played a ton with everyone and was adamant that Byron Nelson was the best player who ever lived and it wasn't close. And Bud, my mentor was Plus way into his seventies, was a 7.8 when he passed at 89, stuffed a cut four wood off the deck & birdied the last hole he ever played so I trusted his judgement just a little bit. Bud said Byron was so good and so precise without any holes in his game anywhere that he really thought about giving up the game because it was so disheartening watching someone so much better than the rest.

I saw on another forum someone call Byron a "caddy yard move", how can you take anything seriously at all when attitudes like this are prevalent about the guy who flat smoked Hogan his whole life PLUS gave him the driver he won his first tournament with? To me at least the whole game is completely upside down to be kind.

[quote name='CrashDavis' timestamp='1348616092' post='5695299']
Probably two things more than the rest, first the aesthetic by the masses who have no way of knowing how great his move was especially in his prime and more than that it was the fact that Byron for his whole life made himself completely available to pretty much the whole world, he was never aloof and he took time for everyone.

I learned to play when I was young from a contemporary of all those guys who was way good enough to play the tour but had no interest in going on the road plus he had a family but he played a ton with everyone and was adamant that Byron Nelson was the best player who ever lived and it wasn't close. And Bud, my mentor was Plus way into his seventies, was a 7.8 when he passed at 89, stuffed a cut four wood off the deck & birdied the last hole he ever played so I trusted his judgement just a little bit. Bud said Byron was so good and so precise without any holes in his game anywhere that he really thought about giving up the game because it was so disheartening watching someone so much better than the rest.

I saw on another forum someone call Byron a "caddy yard move", how can you take anything seriously at all when attitudes like this are prevalent about [b]the guy who flat smoked Hogan his whole life [/b]PLUS gave him the driver he won his first tournament with? To me at least the whole game is completely upside down to be kind.
[/quote]

CD -

No disrespect intended, but it's my understanding that Byron pretty much stopped playing before Hogan ever reached his prime. Didn't Hogan come back from the war, win a bunch of tournaments and was quoted as saying something like "I guess that puts an end to mr. golf" (referring to Bryon).

Byron was awesome, I'm not denying or questioning that. But I don't think it's fair to imply he was better than Hogan when he didn't compete against Hogan at his best.

Another thing about Hogan's Heros in general.

This whole place reminds me a lot of the movie midnight in Paris. Everyone goes on and on about how great the guys of the past were while dogging modern day guys. Exactly like in the movie, (SPOILER ALERT) how the hottie goes back in time further and further, and each generation in Paris insists the previous generation was better than the current.

I'm here and obviously I think the past is worth discussing, but I think it's unfair to dog the modern day guys too. They adapted to modern technology. That's what happens.

Plus - lets not forget that Tiger was playing a wound ball not too far from a balata in '97. He's played blades his entire career. And he's was smashing a steel shafted steal headed driver all around Augusta. Not to mention his old Titleist PT fairway wood that he used well into the 2000s was SMALLER than some persimmons.

My point is modern guys are super good at the modern game. And if the courses, clubs and balls never evolved, then many of the same players that are still out there today would have games that look different, but they'd still be pros. You can't tell me if Tiger or Bubba grew up playing balata and persimmon they couldn't figure it out.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8wA5KNNzeE&feature=g-all-u"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8wA5KNNzeE&feature=g-all-u[/url]

And let's stop calling bubba a flipper too while we're at it. Or at least watch the end of the video above before doing so. I don't see the club flipping over there (at least where it matters). I'm not even a bubba fan for the record.

Done ranting - just my opinion. Back to the past now lol.

Great call on MIP, that movie blew me away; I think its his best since Manhattan and that's saying something as I'm a HUGE Woody Allen fan and sure it goes in that Back in the Day direction but I'm just repeating what the guy who helped me out more than I can express told me, I wasn't there but I tend to agree with him. I see the old tape and I see how much better Byron's hand action was than Hogan and I don't think it is really hard to tell.

I'm not trashing today's players, I just think its a case of talent v skill, I judge on the Big 3 for everybody, pivot, connection & measurement and its not hard at all to see who has a skillset and who is just relying on athleticism and quick twitch fires. That doesn't interest me at all & I think over the long haul its pretty easy to beat because when it leaves its gone forever. Skill doesn't go anywhere, when its there its permanent as long as you're healthy and don't tinker it away (Hi Paddy), that is what I think the game is about along with strategy and the other stuff that involves higher brain function. And its just about extinct with TaylorMades & ProVs. That's not nostalgia its just reality, that is why I still play wound balls and always will. Stroke avg 69.2 this year on 11 rounds all good tracks back & down with a last gen synthetic Maxfli HT. Works for me but I don't ask anyone else to do it obviously not my place.

[quote name='CrashDavis' timestamp='1348616092' post='5695299']
Probably two things more than the rest, first the aesthetic by the masses who have no way of knowing how great his move was especially in his prime and more than that it was the fact that Byron for his whole life made himself completely available to pretty much the whole world, he was never aloof and he took time for everyone.

I learned to play when I was young from a contemporary of all those guys who was way good enough to play the tour but had no interest in going on the road plus he had a family but he played a ton with everyone and was adamant that Byron Nelson was the best player who ever lived and it wasn't close. And Bud, my mentor was Plus way into his seventies, was a 7.8 when he passed at 89, stuffed a cut four wood off the deck & birdied the last hole he ever played so I trusted his judgement just a little bit. Bud said Byron was so good and so precise without any holes in his game anywhere that he really thought about giving up the game because it was so disheartening watching someone so much better than the rest.

I saw on another forum someone call Byron a "caddy yard move", how can you take anything seriously at all when attitudes like this are prevalent about the guy who flat smoked Hogan his whole life PLUS gave him the driver he won his first tournament with? To me at least the whole game is completely upside down to be kind.
[/quote]

Interested on that Driver Byron gave to Hogan, which Hogan won his 1st tournament with. What's with that driver?