Mizuno JPX 825 Pro Made in China?

Just purchased a set of JPX 825 pros and to my delight arrived on my doorstep yesterday. I noticed that the slip that came in the package lists the irons as being made in china and assembled in USA. I thought Mizuno has their irons forged in Japan?? Any thoughts? Anyone who purchased these irons recall where yours were made? Is it only the MP lines that are made in Japan? Thanks for any input!

Firstly where did you buy them from.

[quote name='simonj' timestamp='1349852479' post='5774765']
Firstly where did you buy them from.
[/quote]

Sorry, should have mentioned that earlier. I purchased these from discount dans, which I know is a very highly reputable and frequently referenced retailer on this forum.

Mine were made in China as well

the forged irons sets are made in Japan like the MP range and the cast sets are done in China. The JPX825's are cast and the JPX825 Pro's are grain-flow forged. So yes the JPX825 pros are made in China.

[quote name='Ampire2121' timestamp='1349880349' post='5775697']
the forged irons sets are made in Japan like the MP range and the cast sets are done in China. The JPX825's are cast and the JPX825 Pro's are grain-flow forged. So yes the JPX825 pros are made in China.
[/quote]

You contradicted yourself.

I was under the impression that all forgings for Mizuno were done by the same foundry in Japan with them being grain flow forged. I could be wrong though.

I'm not sure why you're so shocked, Mizuno doesn't even do their own forgings. They have no facility. They outsource everything.

Really??? Chuo anyone??? And to whom would they be outsourcing everything?? Pretty sure they do in fact have their own facility...

Chuo forges all of Mizuno's forgings in Hiroshima, Japan.
Many pieces are then finished (chrome plated, paint filled, etc.) in China.
US regulations state that the "Made In" country is the origin country from where it is shipped into the US.
Because the finishing is the final stage, it says "Made in China" even if the forging was done in Japan.

As far as the foundry, yes, Mizuno "outsources" to Chuo if you want to call it that, but it's an exclusive agreement that they only make Mizuno products.
Name another "major" OEM that has their own exclusive forging location.
In other foundries it's not uncommon at all to see different major OEM forgings coming down production lines right next to each other.

forged in japan
finished in china
assembled in usa

[quote name='Vosh68' timestamp='1349884998' post='5776091']
Chuo forges all of Mizuno's forgings in Hiroshima, Japan.
Many pieces are then finished (chrome plated, paint filled, etc.) in China.
US regulations state that the "Made In" country is the origin country from where it is shipped into the US.
Because the finishing is the final stage, it says "Made in China" even if the forging was done in Japan.

As far as the foundry, yes, Mizuno "outsources" to Chuo if you want to call it that, but it's an exclusive agreement that they only make Mizuno products.
Name another "major" OEM that has their own exclusive forging location.
In other foundries it's not uncommon at all to see different major OEM forgings coming down production lines right next to each other.
[/quote]

sweet, a response right from the source. Thanks Chris.

Chuo isn't part of mizuno, they are their own company. They do all kinds of metal work for companies around the world. They obviously do great work. There are forging houses all over Japan. Just like KZG uses the Kyoei house.

So no, Mizuno does not have their own in house facility. It wasn't a dig. When you have another company do something for you it's called outsourcing. They've done it this way forever. That's not my point.

People moan and complain that this head was made in China, or assembled in the US, or cast in Zimbabwe. They make too big of a deal about it. They still have quality inspection teams whether you use Ping, Mizuno, TM, etc.

Like Vosh said, forged in Japan, finished in China. Labor costs have forced a lot of forging companies to move their operations elsewhere in Asia. Even Endo has gone to forging a signifigant number of their irons in Taiwan due to labor costs.

[quote name='Gaijin_Golfer' timestamp='1349889339' post='5776485']
Like Vosh said, forged in Japan, finished in China. Labor costs have forced a lot of forging companies to move their operations elsewhere in Asia. Even Endo has gone to forging a signifigant number of their irons in Taiwan due to labor costs.
[/quote]

Thought it was Thailand?

[quote name='somaplr' timestamp='1349885566' post='5776133']
Chuo isn't part of mizuno, they are their own company. They do all kinds of metal work for companies around the world. They obviously do great work. There are forging houses all over Japan. Just like KZG uses the Kyoei house.

So no, Mizuno does not have their own in house facility. It wasn't a dig. When you have another company do something for you it's called outsourcing. They've done it this way forever. [b]That's not my point. [/b]

People moan and complain that this head was made in China, or assembled in the US, or cast in Zimbabwe. They make too big of a deal about it. They still have quality inspection teams whether you use Ping, Mizuno, TM, etc.
[/quote]

So what is your point?? To try and claim that mass production Chinese forging is as good as a specialized forging house like Chuo? Or that simply because there is a QC component in place at a company that means whatever is coming off the product line is essentially the same?? I'm lost on your logic....

When you use the term outsourcing it seems to me you are attempting to imply that it is the same type of outsourcing where many companies may outsource to one major facility in an effort to take advantage of economies of scale and thus, lower costs. This is not at all what Mizuno is doing. In fact, it's quite different.

Sounds like to me Chuo and Mizuno have an exclusive agreement and while yes, the Chuo house isn't in MIzzy's backyard, it doesn't do work for anyone else...I don't think the word outsourcing is a best fit here....perhaps exclusive forging house for Mizuno is more accurate...

No, outsourcing doesn't always have to mean economies of scale. Quite the opposite sometimes. I'm not attempting to imply anything, it has to do with specilization. Mizuno can not tap into the talented forging house market for club makers nor do they have the expertise of handling metals. Their expertise is in DESIGN. Sure Chuo is an exclusive partner and does their metal work. We'll chalk it up to a mix up of vernacular...most people seem to think Mizuno does all the forgings themselves, which is not true.

My point was is exactly what I stated above:

People care too much about where the club comes from or where it has it's "Made From" origin. The quality control and most major manufacturers is top notch. While I've only ever been to PING's facility to see it first hand, from having 3 sets of Mizzies in my garage, the only set that wasn't "made from" china is my MP32's. Both companies have QC that is exceeds expectations.

The only clubs actually MADE in China are the JPX line cast models. And they are great clubs. Some PING models are cast in China. And they are great clubs.

[quote name='topekareal' timestamp='1349890455' post='5776569']

So what is your point?? To try and claim that mass production Chinese forging is as good as a specialized forging house like Chuo? Or that simply because there is a QC component in place at a company that means whatever is coming off the product line is essentially the same?? I'm lost on your logic....

When you use the term outsourcing it seems to me you are attempting to imply that it is the same type of outsourcing where many companies may outsource to one major facility in an effort to take advantage of economies of scale and thus, lower costs. This is not at all what Mizuno is doing. In fact, it's quite different.

Sounds like to me Chuo and Mizuno have an exclusive agreement and while yes, the Chuo house isn't in MIzzy's backyard, it doesn't do work for anyone else...I don't think the word outsourcing is a best fit here....perhaps exclusive forging house for Mizuno is more accurate...
[/quote]

Sounds like outsourcing to me. And how do you know this Chuo place is better than Chinese foundries?

Nothing wrong with Mizuno clubs, but they don't belong on some pedestal either.

[quote name='topekareal' timestamp='1349884164' post='5776021']
Really??? Chuo anyone??? And to whom would they be outsourcing everything?? Pretty sure they do in fact have their own facility...
[/quote]

EXACTLY

it's right next to where they make the running shoes and baseball gloves

Sorry, but I disagree...In my experience (and in the experience of many others) the Mizuno forging process is superior to many other forging processes.....I guess I'd be interested to know why Miura, Tourstage, Epon and other JDM brands have the reputation they do if this isn't the case??

I'll take a company who does one thing...does it exceptionally well and has a world-wide reputation for such over mass production any day....

I think Mizuno does belong on a pedestal of sorts and (along with some other OEM's) has earned the right to be there...Doesn't mean you have to agree, but the company which made the #1 iron on tour for 7 straight years (prior to the tee up money boom) deserves some pedestal time don't ya think?

[quote name='somaplr' timestamp='1349892761' post='5776801']
No, outsourcing doesn't always have to mean economies of scale. Quite the opposite sometimes. I'm not attempting to imply anything, it has to do with specilization. Mizuno can not tap into the talented forging house market for club makers nor do they have the expertise of handling metals. Their expertise is in DESIGN. Sure Chuo is an exclusive partner and does their metal work. We'll chalk it up to a mix up of vernacular...most people seem to think Mizuno does all the forgings themselves, which is not true.

My point was is exactly what I stated above:

[b]People care too much about where the club comes from or where it has it's "Made From" origin.[/b] The quality control and most major manufacturers is top notch. While I've only ever been to PING's facility to see it first hand, from having 3 sets of Mizzies in my garage, the only set that wasn't "made from" china is my MP32's. Both companies have QC that is exceeds expectations.

The only clubs actually MADE in China are the JPX line cast models. And they are great clubs. Some PING models are cast in China. And they are great clubs.
[/quote]

Certainly, everyone gets there own opinion, but I think consumers should care where a product comes from and in many cases, this does have a direct bearing on quality. Cuban cigars....European cars...Italian suits, etc.... There isn't anything wrong with admitting certain countries produce higher quality products...and while this may not be a universally accepted truth (consumer choice still reigns supreme) there can be some consensus on the matter...Doesn't mean the other options aren't good or even great, but there has to be a best and when it comes to forging, Japan tends to win this argument...

[quote name='topekareal' timestamp='1349896348' post='5777163']
I think Mizuno does belong on a pedestal of sorts and (along with some other OEM's) has earned the right to be there...Doesn't mean you have to agree, but the company which made the #1 iron on tour for 7 straight years (prior to the tee up money boom) deserves some pedestal time don't ya think?
[/quote]

Dude, it's just a chunk of metal glued to a stick. There is no romance, no superior technology in a set of Mizuno's.

Forged clubs have been made virtually the exact same way, using the exact same materials, for something like 50 years. Some better, modern clubs, have machined score lines and/or details in the back cavity, but that's the only thing different from clubs built a LONG time ago.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but there is nothing special about Mizuno clubs. They are a good design, built by a good foundry, and finished by a good finishing house (in China). Nothing wrong with that, but nothing special either.

As for pro's using Mizuno's, that has more to do with sponsorship and the marketing choice Mizuno takes in that they make lots of "players" type irons. They don't sell as many sets compared to Callaway, Taylor Made or Ping because of this choice either. Again, nothing wrong with this, but nothing special either.

[quote name='topekareal' timestamp='1349896709' post='5777199']
[quote name='somaplr' timestamp='1349892761' post='5776801']
No, outsourcing doesn't always have to mean economies of scale. Quite the opposite sometimes. I'm not attempting to imply anything, it has to do with specilization. Mizuno can not tap into the talented forging house market for club makers nor do they have the expertise of handling metals. Their expertise is in DESIGN. Sure Chuo is an exclusive partner and does their metal work. We'll chalk it up to a mix up of vernacular...most people seem to think Mizuno does all the forgings themselves, which is not true.

My point was is exactly what I stated above:

[b]People care too much about where the club comes from or where it has it's "Made From" origin.[/b] The quality control and most major manufacturers is top notch. While I've only ever been to PING's facility to see it first hand, from having 3 sets of Mizzies in my garage, the only set that wasn't "made from" china is my MP32's. Both companies have QC that is exceeds expectations.

The only clubs actually MADE in China are the JPX line cast models. And they are great clubs. Some PING models are cast in China. And they are great clubs.
[/quote]

Certainly, everyone gets there own opinion, but I think consumers should care where a product comes from and in many cases, this does have a direct bearing on quality. Cuban cigars....European cars...Italian suits, etc.... There isn't anything wrong with admitting certain countries produce higher quality products...and while this may not be a universally accepted truth (consumer choice still reigns supreme) there can be some consensus on the matter...Doesn't mean the other options are good or even great, but there has to be a best and when it comes to forging, Japan tends to win this argument...
[/quote]

if you really want to smash metal with a giant industrial press, it can really only be done correctly in one country...

where do you think the equipment that produces those japanese amazing forgings is made?

[quote name='harold baines' timestamp='1349899287' post='5777431'] [quote name='topekareal' timestamp='1349896709' post='5777199'] [quote name='somaplr' timestamp='1349892761' post='5776801'] No, outsourcing doesn't always have to mean economies of scale. Quite the opposite sometimes. I'm not attempting to imply anything, it has to do with specilization. Mizuno can not tap into the talented forging house market for club makers nor do they have the expertise of handling metals. Their expertise is in DESIGN. Sure Chuo is an exclusive partner and does their metal work. We'll chalk it up to a mix up of vernacular...most people seem to think Mizuno does all the forgings themselves, which is not true. My point was is exactly what I stated above: [b]People care too much about where the club comes from or where it has it's "Made From" origin.[/b] The quality control and most major manufacturers is top notch. While I've only ever been to PING's facility to see it first hand, from having 3 sets of Mizzies in my garage, the only set that wasn't "made from" china is my MP32's. Both companies have QC that is exceeds expectations. The only clubs actually MADE in China are the JPX line cast models. And they are great clubs. Some PING models are cast in China. And they are great clubs. [/quote] Certainly, everyone gets there own opinion, but I think consumers should care where a product comes from and in many cases, this does have a direct bearing on quality. Cuban cigars....European cars...Italian suits, etc.... There isn't anything wrong with admitting certain countries produce higher quality products...and while this may not be a universally accepted truth (consumer choice still reigns supreme) there can be some consensus on the matter...Doesn't mean the other options are good or even great, but there has to be a best and when it comes to forging, Japan tends to win this argument... [/quote] if you really want to smash metal with a giant industrial press, it can really only be done correctly in one country... where do you think the equipment that produces those japanese amazing forgings is made? [/quote]

Don White and MANY MANY other independent companies have something to say about that. That's false.

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1349898351' post='5777333']
[quote name='topekareal' timestamp='1349896348' post='5777163']
I think Mizuno does belong on a pedestal of sorts and (along with some other OEM's) has earned the right to be there...Doesn't mean you have to agree, but the company which made the #1 iron on tour for 7 straight years (prior to the tee up money boom) deserves some pedestal time don't ya think?
[/quote]

Dude, it's just a chunk of metal glued to a stick. There is no romance, no superior technology in a set of Mizuno's.

Forged clubs have been made virtually the exact same way, using the exact same materials, for something like 50 years. Some better, modern clubs, have machined score lines and/or details in the back cavity, but that's the only thing different from clubs built a LONG time ago.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but there is nothing special about Mizuno clubs. They are a good design, built by a good foundry, and finished by a good finishing house (in China). Nothing wrong with that, but nothing special either.

As for pro's using Mizuno's, that has more to do with sponsorship and the marketing choice Mizuno takes in that they make lots of "players" type irons. They don't sell as many sets compared to Callaway, Taylor Made or Ping because of this choice either. Again, nothing wrong with this, but nothing special either.
[/quote]

Again, I disagree...I think you're oversimplifying the conversation...and a "chunk of metal glued to a stick" perhaps while tongue/cheek is indicative of that - You're not raining on my parade...but I've hit most clubs on the market and I do believe there is something different about Mizuno's...not an issue of superiority as I think there are many wonderful forgings on the market...just not any from China... Pro's using Mizuno in the 1990s had nothing to do with sponsorship....it was about quality...

[quote name='harold baines' timestamp='1349899287' post='5777431']
[quote name='topekareal' timestamp='1349896709' post='5777199']
[quote name='somaplr' timestamp='1349892761' post='5776801']
No, outsourcing doesn't always have to mean economies of scale. Quite the opposite sometimes. I'm not attempting to imply anything, it has to do with specilization. Mizuno can not tap into the talented forging house market for club makers nor do they have the expertise of handling metals. Their expertise is in DESIGN. Sure Chuo is an exclusive partner and does their metal work. We'll chalk it up to a mix up of vernacular...most people seem to think Mizuno does all the forgings themselves, which is not true.

My point was is exactly what I stated above:

[b]People care too much about where the club comes from or where it has it's "Made From" origin.[/b] The quality control and most major manufacturers is top notch. While I've only ever been to PING's facility to see it first hand, from having 3 sets of Mizzies in my garage, the only set that wasn't "made from" china is my MP32's. Both companies have QC that is exceeds expectations.

The only clubs actually MADE in China are the JPX line cast models. And they are great clubs. Some PING models are cast in China. And they are great clubs.
[/quote]

Certainly, everyone gets there own opinion, but I think consumers should care where a product comes from and in many cases, this does have a direct bearing on quality. Cuban cigars....European cars...Italian suits, etc.... There isn't anything wrong with admitting certain countries produce higher quality products...and while this may not be a universally accepted truth (consumer choice still reigns supreme) there can be some consensus on the matter...Doesn't mean the other options are good or even great, but there has to be a best and when it comes to forging, Japan tends to win this argument...
[/quote]

if you really want to smash metal with a giant industrial press, it can really only be done correctly in one country...

where do you think the equipment that produces those japanese amazing forgings is made?
[/quote]

Humor us...where are the machines produced??

[quote name='topekareal' timestamp='1349896348' post='5777163']
...but the company which made the #1 iron on tour for 7 straight years (prior to the tee up money boom) deserves some pedestal time don't ya think?
[/quote]

I'd normally agree with that. But that would require Ping putters to be on that pedestal as well. And the worshippers will not let that happen.

[quote name='topekareal' timestamp='1349900681' post='5777561']
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1349898351' post='5777333']
[quote name='topekareal' timestamp='1349896348' post='5777163']
I think Mizuno does belong on a pedestal of sorts and (along with some other OEM's) has earned the right to be there...Doesn't mean you have to agree, but the company which made the #1 iron on tour for 7 straight years (prior to the tee up money boom) deserves some pedestal time don't ya think?
[/quote]

Dude, it's just a chunk of metal glued to a stick. There is no romance, no superior technology in a set of Mizuno's.

Forged clubs have been made virtually the exact same way, using the exact same materials, for something like 50 years. Some better, modern clubs, have machined score lines and/or details in the back cavity, but that's the only thing different from clubs built a LONG time ago.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but there is nothing special about Mizuno clubs. They are a good design, built by a good foundry, and finished by a good finishing house (in China). Nothing wrong with that, but nothing special either.

As for pro's using Mizuno's, that has more to do with sponsorship and the marketing choice Mizuno takes in that they make lots of "players" type irons. They don't sell as many sets compared to Callaway, Taylor Made or Ping because of this choice either. Again, nothing wrong with this, but nothing special either.
[/quote]

Again, I disagree...I think you're oversimplifying the conversation...and a "chunk of metal glued to a stick" perhaps while tongue/cheek is indicative of that - You're not raining on my parade...but I've hit most clubs on the market and I do believe there is something different about Mizuno's...not an issue of superiority as I think there are many wonderful forgings on the market...just not any from China... Pro's using Mizuno in the 1990s had nothing to do with sponsorship....it was about quality...
[/quote]

Since you are not going to believe me, read what Tom Wishon has to say about forging golf club heads...[url="http://wishongolf.com/forged-irons-from-japan-vs-us-or-china-the-facts/"]http://wishongolf.co...hina-the-facts/[/url]

Personally, I'm a 51 year old mechanical engineer that has spent 21 years working for a major Japanese auto manufacture, and currently work in the aerospace industry. I've spent my entire career working in quality, manufacturing, and after sales support. I've been inside more factories than I can remember, and I assure you, forging a golf club head is not rocket science.

I believe greatest improvement in golf club forging technology is in the die manufacturing; many of the better forgings are made with one extra finish die step compared to years ago, that increases the accuracy of the club shape, thus saving time and money during the finishing operations. Most of these tools are made in China. I'd love to learn where Mizuno's forging tools are made. I'd bet you a beer it's China.

Whacking a chunk of metal in a press is the easy part. Building an accurate tool is way more complicated.

Okay, said my peace. Believe what you want.

Good luck

Ok...I'll grant you this...you clearly have more experience in engineering than I do and while I appreciate the link to Wishon's thoughts (I think we all know his bias is to promote his type of clubfitting and his brand of clubs) it still doesn't answer the question of why different forgings feel differently and thus, have different followings...If they are all effectively just hunks of metal at the end of a steel shaft, why do Endo forged clubs feel a bit firmer than Mizuno forged clubs? Why have different forging houses at all if it is effectively the same rudimentary process?

The "softness" feeling is highly subjective from one user to another. The club head design has a lot to do with the feeling, and the material and heat treatment process contributes as well. I'd bet you my 401k that if the same dies were used, and the same metal and number of annealing steps were used, any reputable forging house could make the head and you would never tell the difference.

BTW, the softer the metal the more wear the club will show. I think Wishon chooses to use a material that's stronger than some other companies because he wants his clubs to last a little longer, and because of that, some people think his heads have a firmer feel. Oh, and cast stainless steel irons are FAR more durable than any forging. My point is that "soft" clubs are not the end all, be all. There are engineering trade offs that only benefit a select few golfers that care about such things.