Armstrong Doping Scandal: All heck breaking loose

After so many years of domination even the most ardent supporters of Lance must face the facts. Currently most of his former teammates are releasing statements regarding what possibly was the biggest sports fraud in history.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/lancearmstrong/9600577/Lance-Armstrong-was-ringleader-of-biggest-doping-conspiracy-in-sporting-history-say-USADA.html

As an aside, just as I was gullible regarding Lance's use of drugs, I am no longer going to be naive. If there are reasons to use drugs in golfing, the people are using them. Period.

With the money involved, will we see a major break-out scandal related to golf in a decade or so? You bet we will.

Maybe I'm naive in regards to Lance Armstrong and doping, but large amounts of cash will make people lie in court just to take someone down.

[if you know, then why did you do it?]

[quote name='rafal' timestamp='1349957393' post='5780041']
After so many years of domination even the most ardent supporters of Lance must face the facts. Currently most of his former teammates are releasing statements regarding what possibly was the biggest sports fraud in history.

[url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/lancearmstrong/9600577/Lance-Armstrong-was-ringleader-of-biggest-doping-conspiracy-in-sporting-history-say-USADA.html"]http://www.telegraph...-say-USADA.html[/url]

As an aside, just as I was gullible regarding Lance's use of drugs, I am no longer going to be naive. If there are reasons to use drugs in golfing, the people are using them. Period.

With the money involved, will we see a major break-out scandal related to golf in a decade or so? You bet we will.
[/quote]

yes, tiger definitely took roids but i dont think they actually improved his performance. golf is not a sport that PEDs do a whole lot. hitting the ball further only helps if you hit it better at the same time.

[quote name='hebron1427' timestamp='1349964568' post='5780483']
[quote name='rafal' timestamp='1349957393' post='5780041']
After so many years of domination even the most ardent supporters of Lance must face the facts. Currently most of his former teammates are releasing statements regarding what possibly was the biggest sports fraud in history.

[url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/lancearmstrong/9600577/Lance-Armstrong-was-ringleader-of-biggest-doping-conspiracy-in-sporting-history-say-USADA.html"]http://www.telegraph...-say-USADA.html[/url]

As an aside, just as I was gullible regarding Lance's use of drugs, I am no longer going to be naive. If there are reasons to use drugs in golfing, the people are using them. Period.

With the money involved, will we see a major break-out scandal related to golf in a decade or so? You bet we will.
[/quote]

yes, tiger definitely took roids but i dont think they actually improved his performance. golf is not a sport that PEDs do a whole lot. hitting the ball further only helps if you hit it better at the same time.
[/quote]

I think it would significantly increase his performance. People don't realize PEDs don't just miraculously make you bigger and stronger. PEDs make you be able to workout better, longer, harder all while recovering faster. Saying they didn't help Tiger improve his performance means you aren't looking at the whole picture. Taking PEDs means Tiger has more energy, more focus. His muscles theoretically should get less tired. This results in him being able to practice longer and more efficiently. Less soreness after long, grueling practice sessions. More practice and better practice sessions will dramatically improve a player of Tiger's caliber. There have also been studies evidencing the healing powers of HGH.... you don't think given Tiger's knee history that these PEDs played no part in quicker recovery times? Granted his knee is still a terrible mess, but honestly, who knows if he could still play with a drug like HGH (I fully admit that comment is a leap of faith but thought it was worth bringing up).

I think PEDs, if used properly, will improve anyone's athletic ability/performance beyond sports that require a ton of strength.

In terms of Lance Armstrong. I'm not sure how anyone can still say that he didn't dope. I still haven't read a statement from him recently where he directly denies taking PEDs. All he says is he passed over 500 tests. He doesn't say he never doped. If you read into his statements, I think it's pretty clear he did things that are frowned upon, but, he was operating above the tests.

[quote name='SilverBullets' timestamp='1349965800' post='5780571']

I think it would significantly increase his performance. People don't realize PEDs don't just miraculously make you bigger and stronger. PEDs make you be able to workout better, longer, harder all while recovering faster. Saying they didn't help Tiger improve his performance means you aren't looking at the whole picture. Taking PEDs means Tiger has more energy, more focus. His muscles theoretically should get less tired. This results in him being able to practice longer and more efficiently. Less soreness after long, grueling practice sessions. More practice and better practice sessions will dramatically improve a player of Tiger's caliber. There have also been studies evidencing the healing powers of HGH.... you don't think given Tiger's knee history that these PEDs played no part in quicker recovery times? Granted his knee is still a terrible mess, but honestly, who knows if he could still play with a drug like HGH (I fully admit that comment is a leap of faith but thought it was worth bringing up).

I think PEDs, if used properly, will improve anyone's athletic ability/performance beyond sports that require a ton of strength.

In terms of Lance Armstrong. I'm not sure how anyone can still say that he didn't dope. I still haven't read a statement from him recently where he directly denies taking PEDs. All he says is he passed over 500 tests. He doesn't say he never doped. If you read into his statements, I think it's pretty clear he did things that are frowned upon, but, he was operating above the tests.
[/quote]

i disagree. maybe they helped with rehab on the knee, but i think PEDs tend to CAUSE injury more often than not. We're seeing far more non-impact injuries in contact sports because the conditioned athletes don't have fat on their bodies. It seems like the roid-ridden athletes have more issues with staying healthy than those who dont. Tiger's first knee issue was from running on the beach (right?). Who has those kinds of issues? add into that the "sex addiction" which was probably testosterone-induced overactivity, and you've now got two of the major deraillers for his career. Plus, the golf swing isn't about working out being tired or even how far you hit it. look at a guy like charles howell III, or adam scott, who are not particularly strong guys, but are capable of generating enormous power through the mechanics of their golf swing. big stuff (i.e., muscles, or, in my case, big stomaches) tend to get in the way and make it more difficult to swing.

but it's all speculation...

during the Ben Johnson episode of 30 for 30 the other night, I remember hearing them say that without steroids, you can lift your max about once every 3 days. With steroids, you can lift it twice a day. I don't care what sport you play, that's a huge difference in conditioning.

[quote name='ben w' timestamp='1349969198' post='5780857']
during the Ben Johnson episode of 30 for 30 the other night, I remember hearing them say that without steroids, you can lift your max about once every 3 days. With steroids, you can lift it twice a day. I don't care what sport you play, that's a huge difference in conditioning.
[/quote]

no question. but if golf were about conditioning, john daly would never have won a major.

[quote name='hebron1427' timestamp='1349969143' post='5780845']
[quote name='SilverBullets' timestamp='1349965800' post='5780571']
I think it would significantly increase his performance. People don't realize PEDs don't just miraculously make you bigger and stronger. PEDs make you be able to workout better, longer, harder all while recovering faster. Saying they didn't help Tiger improve his performance means you aren't looking at the whole picture. Taking PEDs means Tiger has more energy, more focus. His muscles theoretically should get less tired. This results in him being able to practice longer and more efficiently. Less soreness after long, grueling practice sessions. More practice and better practice sessions will dramatically improve a player of Tiger's caliber. There have also been studies evidencing the healing powers of HGH.... you don't think given Tiger's knee history that these PEDs played no part in quicker recovery times? Granted his knee is still a terrible mess, but honestly, who knows if he could still play with a drug like HGH (I fully admit that comment is a leap of faith but thought it was worth bringing up).

I think PEDs, if used properly, will improve anyone's athletic ability/performance beyond sports that require a ton of strength.

In terms of Lance Armstrong. I'm not sure how anyone can still say that he didn't dope. I still haven't read a statement from him recently where he directly denies taking PEDs. All he says is he passed over 500 tests. He doesn't say he never doped. If you read into his statements, I think it's pretty clear he did things that are frowned upon, but, he was operating above the tests.
[/quote]

i disagree. maybe they helped with rehab on the knee, but i think PEDs tend to CAUSE injury more often than not. We're seeing far more non-impact injuries in contact sports because the conditioned athletes don't have fat on their bodies. It seems like the roid-ridden athletes have more issues with staying healthy than those who dont. Tiger's first knee issue was from running on the beach (right?). Who has those kinds of issues? add into that the "sex addiction" which was probably testosterone-induced overactivity, and you've now got two of the major deraillers for his career. Plus, the golf swing isn't about working out being tired or even how far you hit it. look at a guy like charles howell III, or adam scott, who are not particularly strong guys, but are capable of generating enormous power through the mechanics of their golf swing. big stuff (i.e., muscles, or, in my case, big stomaches) tend to get in the way and make it more difficult to swing.

but it's all speculation...
[/quote]

As you say its all speculation but again, reread my post... i said golf is not about strength but the benefit of PEDs is not simply strength based... PEDs help with recovery from physical activity. Golf is a physical activity. The PEDs could simply increase Tiger's endurance, hence, increasing the length of practice sessions therefore improving his game...

Its all about how you use the PEDs and how they are administered. IF Tiger is using PEDs, he is not using them for Strength. PEDs help athletes recover. They are commonly found in people requiring strength for their profession because they help increase muscle recovery which as the person stated above according to Ben Johnson's statement will allow them to lift heavier weights more often. But this is just 1 aspect of what PEDs can be used for.

I've read studies comparing Adderal to a PED. Now, please don't make this some ADD/ADHD conversation because that's not any point im trying to drive. Adderal enhances people's ability to focus. There are PEDs out there that actually mimic this drug for different purposes. The point is, PEDs are not used purely for strength and conditioning, there are a lot more uses for them, and IF Tiger is taking them I assume these would some of the reasons.

[quote name='SilverBullets' timestamp='1349971387' post='5781039']
I've read studies comparing Adderal to a PED. Now, please don't make this some ADD/ADHD conversation because that's not any point im trying to drive. Adderal enhances people's ability to focus. There are PEDs out there that actually mimic this drug for different purposes. The point is, PEDs are not used purely for strength and conditioning, there are a lot more uses for them, and IF Tiger is taking them I assume these would some of the reasons.
[/quote]

Put the last sentence in the past tense, and I agree with you. Surely there is a reason why he has lost his superhuman ability to concentrate and make all those ridiculous putts when they mattered most.
Personally, I would never claim that Woods took something like steroids or HGH. I really think that the changes in his body can be achieved by working out without the aid of any substances. But the ability to focus like he did and always, always pull off the shot when needed was suspect. And it is even more so, now that he has lost exactly that. Combine it with the fact that it was some time in 2008 that the PGA Tour started testing, and you could easily imagine a scene around the US Open that year, in which Finchem says "Tiger, we have a problem. Here's the deal, and here is how we handle it."
But then again, the failing putter could just be old age starting to creep in, and after all, the PGA Tour is not WWE.
At least, I hope so.

And to get back to the topic: Anyone who ever thought that Armstriong was clean, when one by one, all the guys he absolutely dominated were proven guilty of using, has to be delusional. Yet, there are still people who defend him. This sort of worshipping is something that is tough to understand for me.

I still think it's a witch hunt. Can a man really pass over 500 drug tests if he's dirty? If his team mates knew LA was doping, why didn't they also learn how to beat the system? When Landis won, I figured he was dooing. He was a monster on the mountain, the next day, he completely recovered and dominated...totally guilty. Armstrong always had a string team around him. There was no doubt who the team was racing for.

Until there's actual evidence (I think they still have his blood so they can test them again with new tech), I don't believe any of his team mates.

I'm curious as to where all the money that is donated to his Livestrong foundation goes, apparently it's not cancer research.

I know a lot of people are ready to denounce him in as many ways as possible.

On the golf side, PEDs really aren't a big advantage. The increase in distance is not worth the awkwardness caused by sudden muscle growth in a sport that requires such precision. Honestly, things like beta blockers that enhance calm are far more beneficial, and anything along those lines that could go undetected would be of more value.

Does anyone really care about cycling? Cycling is probably happy about doping scandal news as it actually keeps it in the news...

I think the comment on beta-blockers being more advantageous in golf is right on track. I think it was sometime in the early nineties when there were some guys on tour who were accusing some others of using the drug. IIRC, Monty was one of the accused but I can't remember who was the accuser.

It is certainly disappointing news. In the middle of his TdF run, he countered rumors of doping with a great line, "What am I on? I'm on my bike, what are you on?". I still consider Armstrong to be, far and away, the best cyclist of his generation. PEDs don't make average athletes great, they allow you to train harder to achieve greater adaptation to stress. He absolutely trained harder than his competitors. I also believe it was a level playing field - he was competing against cyclists using the same PEDs. It's a sad ending to a great story.

I guess that is one thing: the testing is only extensive for the winners. Of course, if you're not winning your doping isn't getting you much in the way of benefits anyway so maybe it all comes out in the wash. Regardless, I'd say it's only fair to say that the U.S. squad wasn't the only group using.

[quote name='Crab Daddy' timestamp='1350128226' post='5788571']
It is certainly disappointing news. In the middle of his TdF run, he countered rumors of doping with a great line, "What am I on? I'm on my bike, what are you on?". I still consider Armstrong to be, far and away, the best cyclist of his generation. PEDs don't make average athletes great, they allow you to train harder to achieve greater adaptation to stress. He absolutely trained harder than his competitors. I also believe it was a level playing field - he was competing against cyclists using the same PEDs. [u][b]It's a sad ending to a great story.[/b][/u]
[/quote]

i disagree. it's a great story. period. at the end of the day, i don't care whether he used PEDs. i don't think many would say it wasn't a level playing field, given that basically every other cyclist that's been tested was doping. But what Lance did was not just win a relatively meaningless sporting competition (to the US, at least) a record number of times, he overcame so much and was a symbol of inspiration to people facing life and death fears everywhere. my opinion: i dont care if he doped. Frankly, if he hadn't, we'd probably never have heard of his name.

Ehhh its cycling. This whole thing being drug out really doesnt seem to matter and I assume he is already convicted in the court of public opinion and most think he did anyway. One lesson from the baseball players though, just admit it if you did. Armstrong has a great story, and like Pettite or any of the players who just admited it..we moved on alot faster than the Palmero's and Clemens.

As far as the testing bit Armstrong keeps using, I believe Barry Bonds never technically failed a test either. Im was a big Bonds fan, but I think we can all guess if he took them or not.

[quote name='bubbagump' timestamp='1350184993' post='5791311']
Ehhh its cycling. This whole thing being drug out really doesnt seem to matter and I assume he is already convicted in the court of public opinion and most think he did anyway. One lesson from the baseball players though, just admit it if you did. Armstrong has a great story, and like Pettite or any of the players who just admited it..we moved on alot faster than the Palmero's and Clemens.

As far as the testing bit Armstrong keeps using, I believe Barry Bonds never technically failed a test either. Im was a big Bonds fan, but I think we can all guess if he took them or not.
[/quote]

most people would say the circumstantial evidence around bonds is enough to convict beyond a reasonable doubt. it didn't hurt that he was kind of an a** to the media--they got the last laugh on that one.

Tiger got bigger over a decade, and did it slowly. If I'm not mistaken, he passed a roids test in 08', no?

[quote name='hebron1427' timestamp='1350187527' post='5791437']
[quote name='bubbagump' timestamp='1350184993' post='5791311']
Ehhh its cycling. This whole thing being drug out really doesnt seem to matter and I assume he is already convicted in the court of public opinion and most think he did anyway. One lesson from the baseball players though, just admit it if you did. Armstrong has a great story, and like Pettite or any of the players who just admited it..we moved on alot faster than the Palmero's and Clemens.

As far as the testing bit Armstrong keeps using, I believe Barry Bonds never technically failed a test either. Im was a big Bonds fan, but I think we can all guess if he took them or not.
[/quote]

most people would say the circumstantial evidence around bonds is enough to convict beyond a reasonable doubt. it didn't hurt that he was kind of an a** to the media--they got the last laugh on that one.
[/quote]

Right, but he always maintained that "never failed a test" as well. Braun this past year also pleaded his innocence, then when the chain of custody was jacked up he felt vindicated and preached it....even though he still tested positive lol. I just dont think that not "failing" a test is as big chip in your argument.

[quote name='hebron1427' timestamp='1350181449' post='5791165']
[quote name='Crab Daddy' timestamp='1350128226' post='5788571']
It is certainly disappointing news. In the middle of his TdF run, he countered rumors of doping with a great line, "What am I on? I'm on my bike, what are you on?". I still consider Armstrong to be, far and away, the best cyclist of his generation. PEDs don't make average athletes great, they allow you to train harder to achieve greater adaptation to stress. He absolutely trained harder than his competitors. I also believe it was a level playing field - he was competing against cyclists using the same PEDs. [u][b]It's a sad ending to a great story.[/b][/u]
[/quote]

i disagree. it's a great story. period. at the end of the day, i don't care whether he used PEDs. i don't think many would say it wasn't a level playing field, given that basically every other cyclist that's been tested was doping. But what Lance did was not just win a relatively meaningless sporting competition (to the US, at least) a record number of times, he overcame so much and was a symbol of inspiration to people facing life and death fears everywhere. my opinion: i dont care if he doped. Frankly, if he hadn't, we'd probably never have heard of his name.
[/quote]

I feel the same way for the most part, but, when I say it's a sad ending, his public image has been severely tarnished. He has been banned from competing in cycling, triathlon, and running events. Having Lance Armstrong compete in your event means more money raised for all associated charities. It also brings recognition to niche sports that need a little PR to grow. He competes in a mountain bike race and it makes the news, at some level. If he's not there, it's like it never happened. If he does compete in a non-sanctioned event, can you announce him as 'Seven time TdF champion...'?

It's too bad Lance has taken such a fall since, as some of you had said, it was essentially a level playing field since it had been wide spread at that time. I've learned with all the recent PED talk that it's never just one guy. Usually it's wide spread throughout a sport for a time period.

As to Tiger using PEDs, I could see the benefits of it, not sure he did or didn't. Always heard he was using beta blockers early on though.

Lance has been banned for life from almost everything. Yet, he never tested positive for anything and caught doing anything. Yet, every year tons of racers test positive for substances and there's always a couple teams who get busted with blood transfusion machines in their hotel rooms and a fridge full of blood, etc. Nothing much happens to them, banned from a race or two. It's a total witch hunt. The sad thing is that every team does it. Only Americans hunted down and persecuted their own people. The winners here are every team except American teams. Americans will never be competitive in the sport if they are clean. Because nobody else will be.

Doping is part of pro cycling just like doping is part of pro bodybuilding. Do you thing Jay Cutler got like this by eating chicken breast and egg whites? Do you think if you asked him if he takes steroids he would say yes? Don't expect any pro cyclist to admit they blood dope either. You just KNOW they do.