Where would you retire to golf?

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  • razor_1razor_1 Members Posts: 76 ✭✭
    edited Jan 9, 2019 7:01am #182
    Bluefan75 wrote:

    razor_1 wrote:


    My choices-



    1. Full-time travel for 3 years (I have a camper)

    2. Destin, FL

    3. Ft Myers, FL

    4. Eastern NC

    5. Eastern SC- I used to have a condo in Myrtle Beach. Sold it and not sorry that I did.



    I selected eastern NC. About halfway between Pinehurst and Myrtle Beach. I am a member of a local country club that I can walk. It's about 6500 from back tees with champions bermuda greens and is a Donald Ross clone course. Walking was a big factor. I hate to ride carts. Decided against full-time travel and if we ever decide to take an extended trip with the trailer, we can do it. A pretty good selection of golf courses within a 2 hour drive. I think my routine when the weather warms is 2-3 rounds at my home course and a travel round so golf 3-4 times per week.



    I liked FL but was raised in the midatlantic so I like the 4 seasons of NC.




    Curious as to your "don't regret it" comment about the condo. Is that a Myrtle Beach/golf comment, or just a general "having a second property is a pain"?




    All of the above and then some. Myrtle Beach has gone downhill in the past 15 years. Epitome of "nice place to visit, but wouldn't want to live there." Also, golf for retirees is not very good. The industry is more catered to resort players- as it should be. For example, I like to walk and play 18 holes in under 3 hours in the a.m. Name a course in Myrtle Beach (other than the Dunes or Sea Gull) that you can do that. Most courses double tee so you are hung up after 9 if you play quickly.



    With golf issues being the majority of the reasons, the area itself is not one that I want to spend my retirement years. It's too congested with summers being the worst. I lived on beaches/oceanfront before (VA Beach, Hawaii, Chesapeake Bay-MD) and the novelty wears off after about 2 months. I lived in the Northeast for many years so the last thing I want to do is sit in traffic or live in a highly congested area.



    I would cite weather but my house here in NC took a pretty good hit from the hurricanes.



    Nothing against Myrtle Beach or that area in general, but if I had to choose any area on that coast, would move either farther north or farther south. In between MB and Wilmington or around Savannah, GA would be my choice.
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  • Bluefan75Bluefan75 Members Posts: 3,872 ✭✭
    razor_1 wrote:

    Bluefan75 wrote:

    razor_1 wrote:


    My choices-



    1. Full-time travel for 3 years (I have a camper)

    2. Destin, FL

    3. Ft Myers, FL

    4. Eastern NC

    5. Eastern SC- I used to have a condo in Myrtle Beach. Sold it and not sorry that I did.



    I selected eastern NC. About halfway between Pinehurst and Myrtle Beach. I am a member of a local country club that I can walk. It's about 6500 from back tees with champions bermuda greens and is a Donald Ross clone course. Walking was a big factor. I hate to ride carts. Decided against full-time travel and if we ever decide to take an extended trip with the trailer, we can do it. A pretty good selection of golf courses within a 2 hour drive. I think my routine when the weather warms is 2-3 rounds at my home course and a travel round so golf 3-4 times per week.



    I liked FL but was raised in the midatlantic so I like the 4 seasons of NC.




    Curious as to your "don't regret it" comment about the condo. Is that a Myrtle Beach/golf comment, or just a general "having a second property is a pain"?




    All of the above and then some. Myrtle Beach has gone downhill in the past 15 years. Epitome of "nice place to visit, but wouldn't want to live there." Also, golf for retirees is not very good. The industry is more catered to resort players- as it should be. For example, I like to walk and play 18 holes in under 3 hours in the a.m. Name a course in Myrtle Beach (other than the Dunes or Sea Gull) that you can do that. Most courses double tee so you are hung up after 9 if you play quickly.



    With golf issues being the majority of the reasons, the area itself is not one that I want to spend my retirement years. It's too congested with summers being the worst. I lived on beaches/oceanfront before (VA Beach, Hawaii, Chesapeake Bay-MD) and the novelty wears off after about 2 months. I lived in the Northeast for many years so the last thing I want to do is sit in traffic or live in a highly congested area.



    I would cite weather but my house here in NC took a pretty good hit from the hurricanes.



    Nothing against Myrtle Beach or that area in general, but if I had to choose any area on that coast, would move either farther north or farther south. In between MB and Wilmington or around Savannah, GA would be my choice.




    Interesting. Thanks for the perspective. I didn't play when we were down there a few weeks(a ton of rain-was not doing CPO), so never got the golf lowdown. Seemed like interesting things, but yeah, given we're in Canada, we're definitely going somewhere that we can be pretty much guaranteed warm weather in the winter months.
  • Sonja HenieSonja Henie Members Posts: 108 ✭✭
    Anywhere with decent weather and inexpensive public/muni courses nearby.
  • howellhandmadehowellhandmade Members Posts: 736 ✭✭
    I lived in Albuquerque for five years and loved it. Loved the food, loved the weather, loved the green chile roasters on every corner. I was in the New Mexico Symphony, and when it started leaking oil a lot of players got second jobs. The tuba player (now in the San Francisco Symphony), buddy of mine, got a job on the greenskeeping crew at Tanoan Country Club, for which he got two rounds a week with a guest so I played it a lot. I'd love to retire to New Mexico, we'll see what happens. It's not dense with golf courses like the southeast but I've never been so sorry to leave a place.
  • herdmanherdman Members Posts: 714 ✭✭
    edited Jan 13, 2019 11:07pm #186
    razor_1 wrote:

    Bluefan75 wrote:

    razor_1 wrote:


    My choices-



    1. Full-time travel for 3 years (I have a camper)

    2. Destin, FL

    3. Ft Myers, FL

    4. Eastern NC

    5. Eastern SC- I used to have a condo in Myrtle Beach. Sold it and not sorry that I did.



    I selected eastern NC. About halfway between Pinehurst and Myrtle Beach. I am a member of a local country club that I can walk. It's about 6500 from back tees with champions bermuda greens and is a Donald Ross clone course. Walking was a big factor. I hate to ride carts. Decided against full-time travel and if we ever decide to take an extended trip with the trailer, we can do it. A pretty good selection of golf courses within a 2 hour drive. I think my routine when the weather warms is 2-3 rounds at my home course and a travel round so golf 3-4 times per week.



    I liked FL but was raised in the midatlantic so I like the 4 seasons of NC.




    Curious as to your "don't regret it" comment about the condo. Is that a Myrtle Beach/golf comment, or just a general "having a second property is a pain"?




    All of the above and then some. Myrtle Beach has gone downhill in the past 15 years. Epitome of "nice place to visit, but wouldn't want to live there." Also, golf for retirees is not very good. The industry is more catered to resort players- as it should be. For example, I like to walk and play 18 holes in under 3 hours in the a.m. Name a course in Myrtle Beach (other than the Dunes or Sea Gull) that you can do that. Most courses double tee so you are hung up after 9 if you play quickly.



    With golf issues being the majority of the reasons, the area itself is not one that I want to spend my retirement years. It's too congested with summers being the worst. I lived on beaches/oceanfront before (VA Beach, Hawaii, Chesapeake Bay-MD) and the novelty wears off after about 2 months. I lived in the Northeast for many years so the last thing I want to do is sit in traffic or live in a highly congested area.



    I would cite weather but my house here in NC took a pretty good hit from the hurricanes.



    Nothing against Myrtle Beach or that area in general, but if I had to choose any area on that coast, would move either farther north or farther south. In between MB and Wilmington or around Savannah, GA would be my choice.




    Pawleys Island, Litchfield Beach, Murrell's Inlet area in the South End. At least Surfside or Garden City Beach area and South. Then, go North end. Nothing in between.



    I always tell people when going to Myrtle, Go North or Go South. Don't go into Myrtle Beach proper. We have a place on the south End(Garden City Beach) and love it down on the South end.
  • LeftDaddyLeftDaddy Members Posts: 710 ✭✭
    I’ve been thinking about this for a handful of years. I’m a southern boy so I’m most likely targeting east coast Richmond, Va down to about Sea Island, GA (although FLA could be ok too).



    Charleston would seem to offer the best of all worlds, but isn’t cheap. HHI may be the second best choice. I already have a place in eastern NC so that may be a choice too, though golf options in my beach town (Emerald Isle) are limited. I like the idea of two places...maybe a ski chalet in Snowshoe or heck, out West somewhere. And a summer place on the southeastern coast, or SoCal or Hawaii etc. Cost will be a factor of course, but I’m thinking the southeast is where we will end up.



    And then who knows...our kids may end up somewhere exotic and all of that goes out the window...
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  • The PearlThe Pearl Members Posts: 1,951 ✭✭
    Great thread and much to think about.



    Lots of tradeoffs in the retirement decision. The golfing communities hold a ton of pull on the psyche, but once you have to buy the real estate and pay for the golf it can get quite pricey. You would need one **** of a retirement income to swing some of the suggestions listed.



    $125K annual income is pretty healthy compared to the national averages I would guess, so one could buy much golfing fun on that budget.
  • DandyDonDandyDon Members Posts: 196 ✭✭
    The Pearl wrote:


    Great thread and much to think about.



    Lots of tradeoffs in the retirement decision. The golfing communities hold a ton of pull on the psyche, but once you have to buy the real estate and pay for the golf it can get quite pricey. You would need one **** of a retirement income to swing some of the suggestions listed.



    $125K annual income is pretty healthy compared to the national averages I would guess, so one could buy much golfing fun on that budget.




    Yes, I have looked online at some of the properties like Colleton River near Hilton Head.....I love the look of the courses and the houses are gorgeous. However, I have noticed that the houses tend to stay on the market forever. Understanding that by living there you are on the hook for a minimum of 1500 whether you golf or not (someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong on this) greatly limits who you can sell too. It's one thing for me to buy it and enjoy it, but the thought that whenever I pass, my kids having to pay 1500 a month until they can get the house sold (which takes a while) is a bit of a put off.
  • The PearlThe Pearl Members Posts: 1,951 ✭✭
    edited Jan 17, 2019 12:28pm #190
    DandyDon wrote:

    The Pearl wrote:


    Great thread and much to think about.



    Lots of tradeoffs in the retirement decision. The golfing communities hold a ton of pull on the psyche, but once you have to buy the real estate and pay for the golf it can get quite pricey. You would need one **** of a retirement income to swing some of the suggestions listed.



    $125K annual income is pretty healthy compared to the national averages I would guess, so one could buy much golfing fun on that budget.




    Yes, I have looked online at some of the properties like Colleton River near Hilton Head.....I love the look of the courses and the houses are gorgeous. However, I have noticed that the houses tend to stay on the market forever. Understanding that by living there you are on the hook for a minimum of 1500 whether you golf or not (someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong on this) greatly limits who you can sell too. It's one thing for me to buy it and enjoy it, but the thought that whenever I pass, my kids having to pay 1500 a month until they can get the house sold (which takes a while) is a bit of a put off.




    Research is certainly warranted and highly recommended as each place is unique. My requirement is great golf at a good value. I don't necessarily have to be part of a "community". Despite the lifestyle allure of the communities, at the end of the day, it is mostly about the weather. There are very few places in the country where the weather is not a trade-off. My coldest round ever was in Florida.



    Owning two homes makes my skin crawl so for me it would be a wholesale move from one area to another which carries tons of risks.



    I am in the Rocky Mt. region which despite not being a full 12 month season comes pretty close. It is usually close to a 9 month season and we have played in every month in prior years. Plus we are two hours to Bandon, two hours to Phoenix and two hours to Vegas so winter getaways are easy.



    I think the only area to try to escape from would be the northeast or upper Mid-west.
  • az2auaz2au Members Posts: 1,795 ✭✭
    The Pearl wrote:




    Owning two homes makes my skin crawl so for me it would be a wholesale move from one area to another which carries tons of risks.




    Why? I've owned at least two homes that I spend time in since my early 30's and have had 3 for a few years (early 40's now). We'll likely add a fourth soon, probably this summer. Life is all about maximizing your opportunities where possible and owning multiple residences has been a huge benefit for us.



    So, back to the retirement question, I'll be chasing an endless summer with low humidity. I know that's what I'll end up with as that is what we already have now. I'm just going to do everything in my power to make sure all of them are paid off by the time I hit 55, at latest 57.
  • HackerDaveHackerDave Members Posts: 1,402 ✭✭
    DandyDon wrote:

    The Pearl wrote:


    Great thread and much to think about.



    Lots of tradeoffs in the retirement decision. The golfing communities hold a ton of pull on the psyche, but once you have to buy the real estate and pay for the golf it can get quite pricey. You would need one **** of a retirement income to swing some of the suggestions listed.



    $125K annual income is pretty healthy compared to the national averages I would guess, so one could buy much golfing fun on that budget.




    Yes, I have looked online at some of the properties like Colleton River near Hilton Head.....I love the look of the courses and the houses are gorgeous. However, I have noticed that the houses tend to stay on the market forever. Understanding that by living there you are on the hook for a minimum of 1500 whether you golf or not (someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong on this) greatly limits who you can sell too. It's one thing for me to buy it and enjoy it, but the thought that whenever I pass, my kids having to pay 1500 a month until they can get the house sold (which takes a while) is a bit of a put off.




    We own a condo on Hilton Head Island. There are a couple of issues that make it difficult to buy and sell. As you mentioned, you really need to love golf and the folks who buy your home need to love it just as much. The other issue is supply. There are a LOT of golf communities on one stretch of road. In Bluffton, you have Colleton River, Belfair, Berkeley Hall, Oldfield, Moss Creek, Rose Hill (a disaster), Palmetto Bluff, Hampton Hall and several others. Many of these have two courses. Did I mention all the golf communities on the island proper? Long Cove, Sea Pines, Wexford, palmetto Hall, Indigo Run, Hilton Head Plantation....etc. The reality is that at least 3 private tracks on the island have gone public or were partial public from the start.



    After the recession, you could have bought into some of these for a buck. A single dollar bill. Our plan has always been to buy into a golf community but I do worry about the financial health of them all. For me, there are two factors to think about. One is home values. This isn't the biggest for me as I figure this will be our final home and if its worth less when I'm gone, oh well. The other is cost of membership and assessments. Even if you are in a financial position to take the pain, are your neighbors? Are the willing to do it? And if they sell, that just puts more downward pressure on prices and makes the cost of ownership vs dues seem even more out of skew.



    So for me, the question becomes do I buy into the community or simply look for an opportunity to join and live outside of the community. At some point, I imagine most of these communities will open up their membership to outside residents if they want to remain private. I would prefer to live within the gates as we will be moving into the area and I like the idea of instant community with people who like the same things I like. Now we just need to figure out how much we are willing to pay for that....and hope others are willing to pay the same.
  • DonatelloNobodieDonatelloNobodie Members Posts: 159 ✭✭
    Agree completely. I'm avoiding buying into a golf community. The days of premium prices for golf community homes is past. Add to that the risk of being stuck with HOA fees to maintain or shore up a failing course, which is more and more common. Better to buy outside a golf community HOA in an area with a selection of good public and private golf options. I'd even hesitate to put up much of an initiation fee to a private, given that that money is lost with a course failure or increasing dues due to financial problems.



    A community near me now has HOA assessments to pay for field mowing and tax on a closed golf course. Homeowners who joined before it closed (2 years after opening) each lost $50K initiation. Add to that substantial loss of property resale value. A dozen or more golf management companies have declined the offer to run it for an annual lease of $1. No way to even break even.
  • The Pearl wrote:

    DandyDon wrote:

    The Pearl wrote:


    Great thread and much to think about.



    Lots of tradeoffs in the retirement decision. The golfing communities hold a ton of pull on the psyche, but once you have to buy the real estate and pay for the golf it can get quite pricey. You would need one **** of a retirement income to swing some of the suggestions listed.



    $125K annual income is pretty healthy compared to the national averages I would guess, so one could buy much golfing fun on that budget.




    Yes, I have looked online at some of the properties like Colleton River near Hilton Head.....I love the look of the courses and the houses are gorgeous. However, I have noticed that the houses tend to stay on the market forever. Understanding that by living there you are on the hook for a minimum of 1500 whether you golf or not (someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong on this) greatly limits who you can sell too. It's one thing for me to buy it and enjoy it, but the thought that whenever I pass, my kids having to pay 1500 a month until they can get the house sold (which takes a while) is a bit of a put off.




    Research is certainly warranted and highly recommended as each place is unique. My requirement is great golf at a good value. I don't necessarily have to be part of a "community". Despite the lifestyle allure of the communities, at the end of the day, it is mostly about the weather. There are very few places in the country where the weather is not a trade-off. My coldest round ever was in Florida.



    Owning two homes makes my skin crawl so for me it would be a wholesale move from one area to another which carries tons of risks.



    I am in the Rocky Mt. region which despite not being a full 12 month season comes pretty close. It is usually close to a 9 month season and we have played in every month in prior years. Plus we are two hours to Bandon, two hours to Phoenix and two hours to Vegas so winter getaways are easy.



    I think the only area to try to escape from would be the northeast or upper Mid-west.


    After having been born and raised in Connecticut, then going to college in Arizona and remaining in the U.S. Coast Guard for nine years, I've been to a lot of places.

    I am now back in Connecticut and can I just say that if anyone is a die-hard golf fan and wants to play a lot of golf in their retirement years this is the last place in the country you want to retire to.



    The very best years we will have an 8 months season, but the median time span is 7 months.
  • Man_O_WarMan_O_War Members Posts: 2,750 ✭✭
    Zac1321 wrote:


    don't want to comment on politics at all but just an observation that its kind of funny to revitalize a thread from 5 years ago not addressing anything remotely close to the original topic just to take a stance on "racism". That being said i am far from retirement age and am planning on getting out in the near future. In my opinion apart from the weather California in general is a terrible choice to live for golf except for the palm springs area especially on a125k/yr budget.



    getting out of California*




    it's worth taking a stance on racism and nazism only..two of the same. commend the guy.
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  • sdandreasdandrea Steve Members Posts: 2,347 ✭✭
    edited Jan 20, 2019 8:53am #196
    West/Central Florida has been nice for us. SWMBO and I both play 3 to 4 times a week, so we needed affordable golf. We're in Citrus County, north of Tampa, south of Gainesville, 12 miles inland, just west of Ocala.
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  • stevopagolfstevopagolf Members Posts: 1,463 ✭✭
    sdandrea wrote:


    West/Central Florida has been nice for us. SWMBO and I both play 3 to 4 times a week, so we needed affordable golf. We're in Citrus County, north of Tampa, south of Gainesville, 12 miles inland, just west of Ocala.




    Lots of good golf in that general area. World Woods & Juliette Falls come to mind. Used to love El Diablo
  • The PearlThe Pearl Members Posts: 1,951 ✭✭
    edited Jan 20, 2019 11:26am #198
    az2au wrote:

    The Pearl wrote:


    Owning two homes makes my skin crawl so for me it would be a wholesale move from one area to another which carries tons of risks.




    Why? I've owned at least two homes that I spend time in since my early 30's and have had 3 for a few years (early 40's now). We'll likely add a fourth soon, probably this summer. Life is all about maximizing your opportunities where possible and owning multiple residences has been a huge benefit for us.



    So, back to the retirement question, I'll be chasing an endless summer with low humidity. I know that's what I'll end up with as that is what we already have now. I'm just going to do everything in my power to make sure all of them are paid off by the time I hit 55, at latest 57.




    Residential real estate as a primary home and vacation homes are a tremendous money suck, even if it is rented part time. The return on a primary home is very low single digits above inflation unless you happen to be extremely lucky. The data is overwhelming on this fact. There is a tremendous opportunity cost in residential real estate. Very few people actually run the numbers. You have 6% in and 6% out to agents. You have maintenance, taxes and operating cost that probably run 1-3% annually on the initial purchase price. Those are nearly impossible fee structures to overcome on any investment. And we are not even talking about capital gains taxes if you sell a home that is not your primary residence. Not to mention zero liquidity in economically stressful times. If you just own the home and it sits there unoccupied, it has a negative cash flow. That is simply shooting yourself in the foot. Cash flow is real wealth. Residential Real Estate is balance sheet wealth which is virtually useless, especially in retirement.



    Americans have an unhealthy infatuation with real estate and it costs them tremendously in accumulating wealth.



    And doing all this with borrowed money.
  • medicoreMAgolfermedicoreMAgolfer Members Posts: 251 ✭✭
    Would like to find a second home in the next ~5 years that I can spend some time now during the winter but then a lot of time when I retire (10 years). Here are my goals (and yet to find a perfect place)



    - Eastern time zone as still plan on spending at least 6 months in mass

    - reasonable drive (sub 90 minutes) from airport with direct options from Boston.

    - golf course(s) with strong walking culture and one that is playable for women

    - winter golf (dec-mar) a must, but can be cold (fine if most days on 50s) or Florida hot

    - want private membership, but as looking before I retire want a place that is not all white haired dudes



    Nice to haves would be reasonable closeness to a town / city with cultural offereings and food scene that is not chain focused. Coastal region would be nice, but not imperative. There is slight value for my work for south Florida, but yet to find a spot that would fit my goals



    Any perfect spots someone would recommend?
  • The Landings Club Savannah Ga has 6 very challenging golf courses, 4 clubhouses, fitness , fishing and lots more. You can get a 4 mo non resident membership , 4 to 5000 a year, play 120 days Midwest real estate prices There is an equity fee See the Landings Club on line. And Savannah for music art history and dining.
  • Schley Schley Love ya don't tell ya enough! Kingdom of Saudi ArabiaMembers Posts: 1,154 ✭✭
    The Pearl wrote:

    az2au wrote:

    The Pearl wrote:


    Owning two homes makes my skin crawl so for me it would be a wholesale move from one area to another which carries tons of risks.




    Why? I've owned at least two homes that I spend time in since my early 30's and have had 3 for a few years (early 40's now). We'll likely add a fourth soon, probably this summer. Life is all about maximizing your opportunities where possible and owning multiple residences has been a huge benefit for us.



    So, back to the retirement question, I'll be chasing an endless summer with low humidity. I know that's what I'll end up with as that is what we already have now. I'm just going to do everything in my power to make sure all of them are paid off by the time I hit 55, at latest 57.




    Residential real estate as a primary home and vacation homes are a tremendous money suck, even if it is rented part time. The return on a primary home is very low single digits above inflation unless you happen to be extremely lucky. The data is overwhelming on this fact. There is a tremendous opportunity cost in residential real estate. Very few people actually run the numbers. You have 6% in and 6% out to agents. You have maintenance, taxes and operating cost that probably run 1-3% annually on the initial purchase price. Those are nearly impossible fee structures to overcome on any investment. And we are not even talking about capital gains taxes if you sell a home that is not your primary residence. Not to mention zero liquidity in economically stressful times. If you just own the home and it sits there unoccupied, it has a negative cash flow. That is simply shooting yourself in the foot. Cash flow is real wealth. Residential Real Estate is balance sheet wealth which is virtually useless, especially in retirement.



    Americans have an unhealthy infatuation with real estate and it costs them tremendously in accumulating wealth.



    And doing all this with borrowed money.
    Pearl..... I don't know if you are really trolling here, but I'll leave it for others right now as I don't have the time to delve into your post although I will ask a couple questions quickly: where are people supposed to live if they don't own a home? Rent anywhere in the country you want to go? You are focused on trying to build more cash balance in accounts only? Is that retirement to you? Retirement is finally using the money you have accumulated to live after working and enjoying your life isn't it? You may have a very different understanding and possible not from or live in the US perhaps?
  • The PearlThe Pearl Members Posts: 1,951 ✭✭
    edited Jan 20, 2019 1:57pm #202
    Schley wrote:

    The Pearl wrote:

    az2au wrote:

    The Pearl wrote:


    Owning two homes makes my skin crawl so for me it would be a wholesale move from one area to another which carries tons of risks.




    Why? I've owned at least two homes that I spend time in since my early 30's and have had 3 for a few years (early 40's now). We'll likely add a fourth soon, probably this summer. Life is all about maximizing your opportunities where possible and owning multiple residences has been a huge benefit for us.



    So, back to the retirement question, I'll be chasing an endless summer with low humidity. I know that's what I'll end up with as that is what we already have now. I'm just going to do everything in my power to make sure all of them are paid off by the time I hit 55, at latest 57.




    Residential real estate as a primary home and vacation homes are a tremendous money suck, even if it is rented part time. The return on a primary home is very low single digits above inflation unless you happen to be extremely lucky. The data is overwhelming on this fact. There is a tremendous opportunity cost in residential real estate. Very few people actually run the numbers. You have 6% in and 6% out to agents. You have maintenance, taxes and operating cost that probably run 1-3% annually on the initial purchase price. Those are nearly impossible fee structures to overcome on any investment. And we are not even talking about capital gains taxes if you sell a home that is not your primary residence. Not to mention zero liquidity in economically stressful times. If you just own the home and it sits there unoccupied, it has a negative cash flow. That is simply shooting yourself in the foot. Cash flow is real wealth. Residential Real Estate is balance sheet wealth which is virtually useless, especially in retirement.



    Americans have an unhealthy infatuation with real estate and it costs them tremendously in accumulating wealth.



    And doing all this with borrowed money.
    Pearl..... I don't know if you are really trolling here, but I'll leave it for others right now as I don't have the time to delve into your post although I will ask a couple questions quickly: where are people supposed to live if they don't own a home? Rent anywhere in the country you want to go? You are focused on trying to build more cash balance in accounts only? Is that retirement to you? Retirement is finally using the money you have accumulated to live after working and enjoying your life isn't it? You may have a very different understanding and possible not from or live in the US perhaps?




    I didn't mean to come across as anti-owning a house as your primary residence. I don't think it is wise for most people to own two unless they have a huge financial cushion. Owning two and bouncing back and forth, to me, is a waste of capital. Most Americans are house poor. They buy too many houses in a lifetime, remodel too much, live in places way too big. This comes with a huge cost over the wealth accumulation phase of peoples lives.



    Of course, there are exceptions in retirement. If you can arbitrage your house from a high-cost area to a low-cost retirement community, go for and pocket some cash or if you simply have so much portfolio wealth than you can just write a check for 400K like it was for a used car than go for it. I can't tell you how many retirees in these communities still have mortgages. These communities have huge trade-offs. The golf is usually somewhat expensive, there are HOA and other associated fees. In some areas, they still build so the housing supply is constantly expanding.



    Let us not forget that the real goal of this thread is that as retirees are mostly trying to arbitrage the weather. Trading one lifestyle for another lifestyle with a weather upgrade. How much are we willing to pay for this?
  • The PearlThe Pearl Members Posts: 1,951 ✭✭


    Agree completely. I'm avoiding buying into a golf community. The days of premium prices for golf community homes is past. Add to that the risk of being stuck with HOA fees to maintain or shore up a failing course, which is more and more common. Better to buy outside a golf community HOA in an area with a selection of good public and private golf options. I'd even hesitate to put up much of an initiation fee to a private, given that that money is lost with a course failure or increasing dues due to financial problems.



    A community near me now has HOA assessments to pay for field mowing and tax on a closed golf course. Homeowners who joined before it closed (2 years after opening) each lost $50K initiation. Add to that substantial loss of property resale value. A dozen or more golf management companies have declined the offer to run it for an annual lease of $1. No way to even break even.




    I think this is an overlooked strategy. One big draw with the golf communities/retirement villages is the clustering of people around, a multitude of things to do, and the accessibility of like-minded folks.
  • az2auaz2au Members Posts: 1,795 ✭✭
    The Pearl wrote:

    az2au wrote:

    The Pearl wrote:


    Owning two homes makes my skin crawl so for me it would be a wholesale move from one area to another which carries tons of risks.




    Why? I've owned at least two homes that I spend time in since my early 30's and have had 3 for a few years (early 40's now). We'll likely add a fourth soon, probably this summer. Life is all about maximizing your opportunities where possible and owning multiple residences has been a huge benefit for us.



    So, back to the retirement question, I'll be chasing an endless summer with low humidity. I know that's what I'll end up with as that is what we already have now. I'm just going to do everything in my power to make sure all of them are paid off by the time I hit 55, at latest 57.




    Residential real estate as a primary home and vacation homes are a tremendous money suck, even if it is rented part time. The return on a primary home is very low single digits above inflation unless you happen to be extremely lucky. The data is overwhelming on this fact. There is a tremendous opportunity cost in residential real estate. Very few people actually run the numbers. You have 6% in and 6% out to agents. You have maintenance, taxes and operating cost that probably run 1-3% annually on the initial purchase price. Those are nearly impossible fee structures to overcome on any investment. And we are not even talking about capital gains taxes if you sell a home that is not your primary residence. Not to mention zero liquidity in economically stressful times. If you just own the home and it sits there unoccupied, it has a negative cash flow. That is simply shooting yourself in the foot. Cash flow is real wealth. Residential Real Estate is balance sheet wealth which is virtually useless, especially in retirement.



    Americans have an unhealthy infatuation with real estate and it costs them tremendously in accumulating wealth.



    And doing all this with borrowed money.


    A couple of points. I've owned as many as 11 properties at a given time. 9 of those were rentals and I sold all of them for significant profits. I understand your concerns but there's likely no one you've ever met more invested in "running numbers" than me, e.g., I taught myself R to make sure I could write analytical financial programs and I have an agent I work with that takes a discount. Also, it is 3/3 not, 6/6 or at least that's the case anywhere I've lived.



    I agree with many of your other points however. Therefore, I should have been more clear, I have enough cash on hand to pay for all of my properties with no problem. When I said I wanted to make sure they were paid off it is because I want to make deferred comp and profit sharing elections instead of paying mortgages with extra income and I want at least 3 years of full income in savings right now. Thus, I'd rather use regular income for paying those mortgages. Also, I agree cash flow is king and I have extremely well defined goals what I want before I retire to make sure all of my kids are set and I can live life in a way that I want. I grew up in a low middle class family and learned very clearly how difficult it is to make things work when you don't plan well. My success and that of my wife will be/is used to pay for homes for our parents so that they can be close to their grandkids and for education for my kids in addition to retiring how we want. I have no fear of the the things you do because I manage them proactively but I will say that the opportunity cost is absolutely worth it to me and I've continually shown that I'm not shooting myself in the foot. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
  • az2au wrote:

    The Pearl wrote:

    az2au wrote:

    The Pearl wrote:


    Owning two homes makes my skin crawl so for me it would be a wholesale move from one area to another which carries tons of risks.




    Why? I've owned at least two homes that I spend time in since my early 30's and have had 3 for a few years (early 40's now). We'll likely add a fourth soon, probably this summer. Life is all about maximizing your opportunities where possible and owning multiple residences has been a huge benefit for us.



    So, back to the retirement question, I'll be chasing an endless summer with low humidity. I know that's what I'll end up with as that is what we already have now. I'm just going to do everything in my power to make sure all of them are paid off by the time I hit 55, at latest 57.




    Residential real estate as a primary home and vacation homes are a tremendous money suck, even if it is rented part time. The return on a primary home is very low single digits above inflation unless you happen to be extremely lucky. The data is overwhelming on this fact. There is a tremendous opportunity cost in residential real estate. Very few people actually run the numbers. You have 6% in and 6% out to agents. You have maintenance, taxes and operating cost that probably run 1-3% annually on the initial purchase price. Those are nearly impossible fee structures to overcome on any investment. And we are not even talking about capital gains taxes if you sell a home that is not your primary residence. Not to mention zero liquidity in economically stressful times. If you just own the home and it sits there unoccupied, it has a negative cash flow. That is simply shooting yourself in the foot. Cash flow is real wealth. Residential Real Estate is balance sheet wealth which is virtually useless, especially in retirement.



    Americans have an unhealthy infatuation with real estate and it costs them tremendously in accumulating wealth.



    And doing all this with borrowed money.


    A couple of points. I've owned as many as 11 properties at a given time. 9 of those were rentals and I sold all of them for significant profits. I understand your concerns but there's likely no one you've ever met more invested in "running numbers" than me, e.g., I taught myself R to make sure I could write analytical financial programs and I have an agent I work with that takes a discount. Also, it is 3/3 not, 6/6 or at least that's the case anywhere I've lived.



    I agree with many of your other points however. Therefore, I should have been more clear, I have enough cash on hand to pay for all of my properties with no problem. When I said I wanted to make sure they were paid off it is because I want to make deferred comp and profit sharing elections instead of paying mortgages with extra income and I want at least 3 years of full income in savings right now. Thus, I'd rather use regular income for paying those mortgages. Also, I agree cash flow is king and I have extremely well defined goals what I want before I retire to make sure all of my kids are set and I can live life in a way that I want. I grew up in a low middle class family and learned very clearly how difficult it is to make things work when you don't plan well. My success and that of my wife will be/is used to pay for homes for our parents so that they can be close to their grandkids and for education for my kids in addition to retiring how we want. I have no fear of the the things you do because I manage them proactively but I will say that the opportunity cost is absolutely worth it to me and I've continually shown that I'm not shooting myself in the foot. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />


    I'm not being sarcastic when I ask what line of work are you in?

    It always intrigues me to hear what kind of professions people have to be able to afford 11 properties.

    My hope is that one day, somebody will give me the Golden Nugget of information so that I can enjoy a prosperous financial life



  • az2auaz2au Members Posts: 1,795 ✭✭

    az2au wrote:

    The Pearl wrote:

    az2au wrote:

    The Pearl wrote:


    Owning two homes makes my skin crawl so for me it would be a wholesale move from one area to another which carries tons of risks.




    Why? I've owned at least two homes that I spend time in since my early 30's and have had 3 for a few years (early 40's now). We'll likely add a fourth soon, probably this summer. Life is all about maximizing your opportunities where possible and owning multiple residences has been a huge benefit for us.



    So, back to the retirement question, I'll be chasing an endless summer with low humidity. I know that's what I'll end up with as that is what we already have now. I'm just going to do everything in my power to make sure all of them are paid off by the time I hit 55, at latest 57.




    Residential real estate as a primary home and vacation homes are a tremendous money suck, even if it is rented part time. The return on a primary home is very low single digits above inflation unless you happen to be extremely lucky. The data is overwhelming on this fact. There is a tremendous opportunity cost in residential real estate. Very few people actually run the numbers. You have 6% in and 6% out to agents. You have maintenance, taxes and operating cost that probably run 1-3% annually on the initial purchase price. Those are nearly impossible fee structures to overcome on any investment. And we are not even talking about capital gains taxes if you sell a home that is not your primary residence. Not to mention zero liquidity in economically stressful times. If you just own the home and it sits there unoccupied, it has a negative cash flow. That is simply shooting yourself in the foot. Cash flow is real wealth. Residential Real Estate is balance sheet wealth which is virtually useless, especially in retirement.



    Americans have an unhealthy infatuation with real estate and it costs them tremendously in accumulating wealth.



    And doing all this with borrowed money.


    A couple of points. I've owned as many as 11 properties at a given time. 9 of those were rentals and I sold all of them for significant profits. I understand your concerns but there's likely no one you've ever met more invested in "running numbers" than me, e.g., I taught myself R to make sure I could write analytical financial programs and I have an agent I work with that takes a discount. Also, it is 3/3 not, 6/6 or at least that's the case anywhere I've lived.



    I agree with many of your other points however. Therefore, I should have been more clear, I have enough cash on hand to pay for all of my properties with no problem. When I said I wanted to make sure they were paid off it is because I want to make deferred comp and profit sharing elections instead of paying mortgages with extra income and I want at least 3 years of full income in savings right now. Thus, I'd rather use regular income for paying those mortgages. Also, I agree cash flow is king and I have extremely well defined goals what I want before I retire to make sure all of my kids are set and I can live life in a way that I want. I grew up in a low middle class family and learned very clearly how difficult it is to make things work when you don't plan well. My success and that of my wife will be/is used to pay for homes for our parents so that they can be close to their grandkids and for education for my kids in addition to retiring how we want. I have no fear of the the things you do because I manage them proactively but I will say that the opportunity cost is absolutely worth it to me and I've continually shown that I'm not shooting myself in the foot. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />


    I'm not being sarcastic when I ask what line of work are you in?

    It always intrigues me to hear what kind of professions people have to be able to afford 11 properties.

    My hope is that one day, somebody will give me the Golden Nugget of information so that I can enjoy a prosperous financial life


    Consulting but that's got nothing to do with how I owned that many properties in all honestly. That was when I was in my 20s and early 30s and I did it simply by buying in a hot area early, using all rental income to invest in different properties and never touching it other than that. Once I got enough for another one I bought another one and so on. Yes, my job income gave me the ability to buy the first one but discipline and a defined view of how I wanted to live my life going forward allowed me to buy the others. In my adult life I've now owned 18 properties. 1 of those was sold at a loss (it was significant but it was a personal happiness choice and worth every single cent). 14 others were sold at mostly significant profits with a couple at only slightly profits. Ok, one of them was around $800 after everything but it was still a profit image/laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' /> The other 3 we still have and use for ourselves (well, kinda on 1 as we currently have a family member renting it for a couple of years since our son was just born 4 months ago). We have zero intention to sell any of those in he foreseeable future.



    Oh, and for those that think HOA/golf club dues are high, try having maintenance on a co-op in NYC. That sucks but it is the most important one to my wife as she was the owner coming into the relationship.
  • I appreciate your reply. Clearly you've made some excellent decisions along the way
  • DandyDonDandyDon Members Posts: 196 ✭✭
    just saw article from WSJ talking about the declining values of golf real estate.....I am beginning to rethink my thought process of actually living in a private club setting (although I am definitely still planning on joining private club)
  • DandyDonDandyDon Members Posts: 196 ✭✭

    So I am taking a trip in a couple of weeks to scout out a few different possible retirement locations. In doing so, I am going to take tours of a few different private clubs. For those of you who are already members of private clubs, what questions do you wish you would have asked before joining? What were pleasant or unpleasant surprises after joining? Thank you.

  • ChancemanChanceman Members Posts: 551 ✭✭

    Buy a Winnebago and follow the sun. Chambers Bay in May, Jackson Hole in June, The Broadmoor in July, Alotian in August, Sleepy Hollow in September, Olde Stonewall in October, Neshanic in November, Dormie Club in December, Streamsong in January, Fallen Oak in February, We Ko Pa in March, Pebble Beach in April and so it goes.

  • Schley Schley Love ya don't tell ya enough! Kingdom of Saudi ArabiaMembers Posts: 1,154 ✭✭

    There are a couple key ones, although others can add as they may have different thoughts. Assuming you like the course, facilities, location you basically need to find out the financials and any miscellaneous fees/policies.
    1. Do you know any members, as this is the best way to get your answers regarding the financial health of the club (assessments, capital projects, typical dues increases, etc.).
    2. if you don't know any members, then you have to ask the membership director. If there is an initiation fee is it refundable and what is the process for refunding it?
    3. What is your assessment history and what was it for in the last 5-10 years. Is it voted on?
    4. What is the dues increase yearly and at what level does the membership have to vote on the dues increase?
    5. Do you have any reciprocity with other clubs and the details on access/fees for those courses?
    6. Guest fees for family and are they discounted?
    7. Is there a legacy membership for children or even grandchildren and terms?
    8. Is it a fully private club or are they allowing public play at all? Are your tee times restricted at all or limited?
    9. F/B minimum and does alcohol count towards it?
    10. Is it a tipping club or a non tipping club? Some have increased dues so members don't have to tip everyone for everything, which I personally think is helpful. Obviously caddies and some other services would still require.
    10. Not that important but fees like locker/bag storage/range fee/carts/caddies/even walking fee.

    So that is pretty exhaustive but should give you a good idea.

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