New Zero tolerance Rules for Hogan Swing Forum

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  • kellygreenkellygreen Members  6413WRX Points: 3Posts: 6,413 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #92
    TheDarkOne wrote:


    Whenever these kind of decisions are made there is never a moment lost to use it as an opportunity to attach other non related grievances to the initial situation eh? If this is a subject to be debated, why would the people having this conversation with the administration not be the people who normally post in this specific forum? I can't count the number of posts that have started with the curious position of "I never post in this forum but.." and then go on to lay out everything that needs to be done to fix a part of the forum they spend zero time in.




    1. For the same reason that the moderators have opened up this thread to the general population of the forum for feedback...and why relatives of the accused and the victims of crimes are not allowed to participate on juries....



    People who have a personal stake in something often have a hard time being dispassionate and cool enough to look at the full range of options in dealing with a problem.



    People who have no such stake in something are often free to step back and look at a situation from a broader perspect than those who are embroiled in trying to deal with the details of it...and can sometimes come up with approaches to handling it (or problems in proposed solutions) that those who have a stake might not have considered.



    2. I have posted (rarely) in that part of the forum...but not enough to have any real personal stake in the outcome. I've seen what happens to other fourms when flaming posts, bad blood, and general hostility are allowed to run unchecked, so I understand the moderators' desire to nip this in the bud...but I've also seen that coming down on a problem like this with too-big of a hammer can be just as destructive, and in unintended ways.



    So I (and I presume others) are simply offering other points of view...and what we've learned from our own experiences...for the moderators to consider before they reach their final decision.
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  • PoserPoser Members  1761WRX Points: 130Handicap: +1Posts: 1,761 Platinum Tees
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    KYMAR wrote:

    Cartrydge wrote:


    Yea great way to run a business... Forget freedom of speech on this forum. I can't believe people get so offended on the internet. I hate to see how some of you guys make it through your life everyday in your bubble.




    Sorry but your understanding of freedom of speech seems to be slightly lacking. Freedom of speech is a right in that citizens can not be silenced or punished, nor should they have to fear reprisals, from the government. There is no inherent "right" to freedom of speech on a privately run website. Especially if what's being defined as free speech is "Nuh uh, You are you jerk face!!"



    I don't really read the hogan forum, mostly because i don't care. but partially because of all the noise. Teachers and "expert" types tend to want to defend their opinions about these things. It is really important to people and sometimes that causes the apparent kind of strife that leads to these arguments. I am sure many will miss the Hogan forum, vitriol and all. I am sorry for those of you who loved to engage in the conversation and debate.




    I understand it's a private forum and they have the right to run it like they want but, banning people so easily and limiting people to posting is a good way to run alot of people off. You can already be banned on here so easily because people get butt hurt over the most stupid of things. I don't even post in this forum or frequent it much the thread tittle got my attention.
    Posted:
  • bmellisenbmellisen Members  1124WRX Points: 89Posts: 1,124 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #94
    TheDarkOne wrote:


    Whenever these kind of decisions are made there is never a moment lost to use it as an opportunity to attach other non related grievances to the initial situation eh? If this is a subject to be debated, why would the people having this conversation with the administration not be the people who normally post in this specific forum? I can't count the number of posts that have started with the curious position of "I never post in this forum but.." and then go on to lay out everything that needs to be done to fix a part of the forum they spend zero time in.




    Because posting in a forum isnt the only way to participate in it. Some people read the conversation going on because it is interesting. I could make more posts in the hogan subforum, but dont really have anything to add to it, so i dont waste my or others time by just posting to post. Doesnt mean i dont enjoy it. And also, the policy can spread throughout the site. Ive been in other topics where i am sure people would love to see me banned, just because i dont agree with their viewpoint, not because of how i expressed myself.
    Posted:
  • TheDarkOneTheDarkOne Members  3725WRX Points: 0Posts: 3,725
    Joined:  edited Oct 18, 2012 #95
    kellygreen wrote:


    1. For the same reason that the moderators have opened up this thread to the general population of the forum for feedback...and why relatives of the accused and the victims of crimes are not allowed to participate on juries....

    People who have a personal stake in something often have a hard time being dispassionate and cool enough to look at the full range of options in dealing with a problem.

    People who have no such stake in something are often free to step back and look at a situation from a broader perspect than those who are embroiled in trying to deal with the details of it...and can sometimes come up with approaches to handling it (or problems in proposed solutions) that those who have a stake might not have considered.

    2. I have posted (rarely) in that part of the forum...but not enough to have any real personal stake in the outcome. I've seen what happens to other fourms when flaming posts, bad blood, and general hostility are allowed to run unchecked, so I understand the moderators' desire to nip this in the bud...but I've also seen that coming down on a problem like this with too-big of a hammer can be just as destructive, and in unintended ways.

    So I (and I presume others) are simply offering other points of view...and what we've learned from our own experiences...for the moderators to consider before they reach their final decision.




    Where exactly are you getting that this is up for debate and a final decision hasn't already been reached or feedback is somehow needed? The ownership of the website has issued an edict to its membership in regards to what their expectations are for behavior in a small sub forum that most people here don't even frequent. From there, this has now transcended to a town hall meeting where the users of the website feel that this is an appropriate time to go into every short coming they feel exists at Golfwrx. What makes it sadder is that the SAME people show up in every one of these threads to stir the pot, and then back away to watch the chaos ensue as the membership goes at the Moderators, who usually don't have that large a part, if any, in determination of policy. Those decisions typically come from the ownership or ultimately have to be approved by.

    My thought would be why not let the small number of people who actually post in this forum interact with the leadership about this decision and rationalize it on their own. If there are other OFF TOPIC grievances not related to the Hogan Swing forum, then use an appropriate outlet to express them.
    Posted:
  • TeeAceTeeAce Members  1895WRX Points: 1Posts: 1,895 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #96
    More I think and understand this what mods are doing, more clever it seems to me and I think it's just the right move and will not effect anything which is civil conversation.



    What it will do is take out cheating and personal attacks, and I think we all want that.



    So after this move, you have to be real member of WRX as there has to be those 75 posts. Now what has happened is that people, after loosing their face, get suspended or banned, just create one more nick and continues attacks. So the new nick is only to avoid playing the game with the rules.



    Of course the best way would be active moderating and deleting posts with public warning and then suspend or ban if it continues, but if there is not enough people doing that, what they are doing now is the second best solution IMO. My first thoughts about this limit of 10 posts was misunderstanding, and now it seems more clear for me.
    Posted:
  • profsmittyprofsmitty Marshals  2627WRX Points: 1Posts: 2,627 Marshals
    Joined:  edited Oct 18, 2012 #97
    It has been my experience that member feedback is very important to the management of GolfWRX. Feedback that is constructive is the most effective. Drama is the least.



    As I understand Gxgolfers intent, this thread was both informational and an opportunity for membership's input. While the decision about the future of the Hogan forum has been made, future decisions on similar situations haven't (and there will be future situations, believe me). The decision has been made to keep the forum active but to act forcefully to dampen down the vitriol and drama in this forum. The decision was to:
    1. restrict posts to this section to members who should be aware of the rules and culture of GolfWRX by extending the same participation standards long used in BST to the Hogan forum , and
    2. to serve notice that those who choose to repeatedly disregard GolfWRX's standards of behavior will be dealt forthrightly.


    I think it is important to note that GolfWRX's management did not find it necessary to impose these rules on any of the thousands of forums, threads, and posts outside of the Hogan Forum. The fact is that the members of the GolfWRX community do a remarkable job of policing themselves. As golfers, we are used to the higher standard of conduct the sport imposes on us. This higher code of conduct has been carried forward by our members to their participation in GolfWRX. For the most part, we are our own moderators just as we are own referees when we play golf. Without this standard of behavior, there are not enough moderators to police this site just as there are not enough rules officials to oversee every shot of every match played on every golf course every day of the year.



    Thank you for your citizenship. Thanks for allowing the moderating team to continue to serve you.
    Posted:
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  • drewspindrewspin Charter Members  2996WRX Points: 1Posts: 2,996 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Oct 18, 2012 #98
    The moderators have a thankless job that is made harder by what appear to be the VERY FEW who are insecure and quick on the trigger to report posts.



    Self-moderation is a good thing. There are a few in this forum and only a few who tend to take disagreements personally, either because they are invested in a teaching theory they are promoting, or because they are insecure, or have an inflated ego... even civil disagreement sometimes drives them to personalize things. If everyone were quick on the report button, the whole site would fall apart.



    When my young children get into a behaviour pattern where they start reporting things to Mom and Dad about each other's behavior, they get a short time out to think about their own part in the matter. That works well in my experience at home. If as parents we punished the child who crossed some arbitrary line in the consciousness of the other, we would only be encouraging more such reporting. Instead, we want to encourage them to understand that whatever they thought was so offensive and deserving of a tattle was just that, their own thought.



    I hope the mods and site owners adopt an "enforcement" policy that sends the right signals and does so in a manner to reduce the "report" triggers for the few who appear inclined toward being sensitive.



    Civil discussions and even empassioned disagreements can proceed apace with a more mature view. Those things create many more page views than a dead forum, and also enhance the advertising revenue for the owners.
    Posted:
  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #99


    3) just let it fly, allow it to be a completely unmoderated section and let the chips fall where they may. (for the record I don't like this one, but it's an idea to float).



    Food for thought.




    I thought this was the whole point of having the sub-forum. We basically got removed from the swings section because of the "hogan secret" thread, which by the way may be the single greatest thread in this sub-forum. Anyone who wants to learn about the swing should read it, it has excellent information. But it was so "BAD" that it got locked and bannished to this subforum. What is the point - the point is these special threads have both positives and negatives. As many of us who frequent this area have said, since the certain people who have been allegdly reported were benched, all activity has stopped. I personally would rather read these guys back in here because dealing with their attitude is just a small price to pay to have them exchange their ideas. JMO




    TheDarkOne wrote:


    Whenever these kind of decisions are made there is never a moment lost to use it as an opportunity to attach other non related grievances to the initial situation eh? If this is a subject to be debated, why would the people having this conversation with the administration not be the people who normally post in this specific forum? I can't count the number of posts that have started with the curious position of "I never post in this forum but.." and then go on to lay out everything that needs to be done to fix a part of the forum they spend zero time in.


    I think the regulars have stated their opinion on this, it seems that we (except for maybe one guy) are generally against the idea.
    Posted:
  • Stinger82Stinger82 Members  3542WRX Points: 0Handicap: 11Posts: 3,542
    Joined:  #100
    I do agree with Stage on that last part...we definitely need more mods that's for sure. ESPECIALLY for the BST. Either that or there needs to be some harsher consequences for some of these bad sellers. Again, no disprespect, but that is my opinion.
    Posted:
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  • Pweb44Pweb44 Members  1151WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,151
    Joined:  edited Oct 18, 2012 #101
    Crab Daddy wrote:


    Mods,

    Clarification please: It seems like the 10 post criteria has been misunderstood, and maybe it's by me.

    You are talking about someone with < 75 posts making nonsense posts to run up his post count, correct? Not someone wirh a post count in the hundreds, or 5281 +/-, who posts >10 x during a normal exchange?




    I had the same sort of confusion towards the daily post limit but I’d like to feel that simply going over 10 posts in a day would not get someone banned but would be used along with other criteria or review of what is being posted. I had no real issues when related to BST when someone is trying to run up their posts to get to 75 so they can start selling gear and possibly trying to scam the good WRX members. All the one and two word posts over a couple of days are nothing more than a ploy to skirt the rules and those people need to be stopped or at least warned that they are going to be watched for future actions. Now if someone that posts 15-20 a day but are adding thoughtful and constructive ideas, whether positive or negative towards a topic, should not be penalized due to daily post count vs someone only trying to stir the pot and engage another member into a pointless battle on a web board. So using a limit to penalize a member simply due to post count limit is not good but if being combined with other criteria or factors then I can be accepting if such a guideline.
    Posted:
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  • Swisstrader98Swisstrader98 Members  3614WRX Points: 240Posts: 3,614 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Oct 18, 2012 #102
    I'm a moderator on a P90X forum, so I have a bit of experience with rules and people getting out of control. That being said, the ownership of that site takes a very different approach and encourages us as Mods to do likewise. First and foremost, he views this as a business with sponsors mainly paying the bills and believes that the more eyeballs, meaning members, the more sponsors and the more successful the forum will be. To threaten his membership would potentially threaten his business.



    That being said, he is REALLY against punishment of any sort and feels it takes away from the free flow of ideas and will actually take away from what a forum is supposed to be all about, which is the expression of opinions in a public forum. As mods, we will definitely send a note to someone who's being an idiot or using foul language, but it takes an awful lot to get banned. I have seen one guy in about the last 6 months get banned and that's because he broke just about every rule, didn't head warnings and was just looking to stir the pot.



    Health and fitness forums can surprisingly get every bit as contentious as golf forums. People who are evangelical about Tony Horton, or this diet or that or P90X vs the latest fitness craze out there, but we LOVE when there's a healthy debate because it actually draws MORE people into the conversation and most of the policing that goes on is self policing so that if someone starts acting up, the general membership shuts them down or simply ignore them or in many cases, one of us as mods simply gets on the thread to say knock it off and 9 times out of 10 they do.



    Seems to me as if people on the Hogan Thread are crazy passionate about what they believe and that's what makes for a GREAT thread! Why take that away from the community or try to police it??
    Posted:
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  • Ben Hogan Swing ProjectBen Hogan Swing Project Members  970WRX Points: 0Posts: 970
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    I see lots of new users responding to this thread, but what about the guys that always hang out in Hogan's Heroes.



    Wondering what HG101/SVS/ray ray think about this ZTR stuff??
    Posted:
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