What did Hogan Feel?

I’m back. I know - you didn’t know I left, but still - given recent events I have high hopes moving forward.

A few thoughts:

1. Glad I submitted 80 posts before I disappeared (just made the 75 cut-off)
   
2. *Thrilled* that everyone in the Hogan Heroes Swing forum is now limited to 10 posts/day
   

Ben Hogan thought long and hard before he said something, and I think he did so because he sensed the power of words better than the average person; he didn't want to cheapen his message by overwhelming you with verbiage. It also shouldn’t take more than a few posts to agree to disagree. Ben Hogan would have wanted it this way, not that he would have gave us the time of day but you get my drift.

With that, Hogan always spoke about what he felt. I would like to dedicate this thread to that concept. I for one get headaches reading all these technical terms/arguments about a swing that while technically perfect, was more an abstract form of expression than it was a physics thesis. Einstein once said, if you can’t explain it to a six year old, you don’t understand it yourself and that rings especially true for me. If this thread dies a slow death – so be it, but a few posts a week wouldn’t be so bad and I do know there are some good seeds left here.

First things first, the grip. Hogan never wore a glove. From the man himself all we have is an account that he once told a child, “I can’t wear a glove,” but didn’t/wouldn’t elaborate. I believe it was Jackie Burke who at some point mentioned something with regard to the Hawk not wearing a glove because he believed it cost him a good amount of feel. Personally, I haven’t wore a glove since the first year I started playing golf and I haven’t looked back. I really don’t think my grip would be as good as it is if I hadn’t ditched those things. It was hard at first, but now I have a vice grip that needs little to no pressure to hold on the club.

Anyone care to share anything on the topic or anything else regarding "feel" in the golf swing, please do.

I don't want to post videos, and I am sure everyone here knows what I am talking about, so I don't feel the need to. But what comes to mind immediately for me is that the concentration drill is very different "looking" than his actual swing, so that may be a great insight into his actual feels / thoughts were. Also, in the Coleman video he talks about the right forefinger pressure point. He shows how to pressure it through a shot (not down), that is another "feel." Last, recall reading that he said that he didn't want to see his swing b/c he knew what it felt like - something to that effect.

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1350512912' post='5808649']
I don't want to post videos, and I am sure everyone here knows what I am talking about, so I don't feel the need to. But what comes to mind immediately for me is that the concentration drill is very different "looking" than his actual swing, so that may be a great insight into his actual feels / thoughts were. Also, in the Coleman video he talks about the right forefinger pressure point. He shows how to pressure it through a shot (not down), that is another "feel." Last, recall reading that he said that he didn't want to see his swing b/c he knew what it felt like - something to that effect.
[/quote]

Have you considered the possibility that his feels for his concentration drill and real swing were the same and the real swing just looks so much different because of the speed of it?

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1350525341' post='5809707']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1350512912' post='5808649']
I don't want to post videos, and I am sure everyone here knows what I am talking about, so I don't feel the need to. But what comes to mind immediately for me is that the concentration drill is very different "looking" than his actual swing, so that may be a great insight into his actual feels / thoughts were. Also, in the Coleman video he talks about the right forefinger pressure point. He shows how to pressure it through a shot (not down), that is another "feel." Last, recall reading that he said that he didn't want to see his swing b/c he knew what it felt like - something to that effect.
[/quote]

Have you considered the possibility that his feels for his concentration drill and real swing were the same and the real swing just looks so much different because of the speed of it?
[/quote]

Yes, that is my point, sorry if I didn't get it come across that way. I agree that they look drastically different and the drill is an insight as to what he was feeling / thinking in training his REAL swing.

My point is that they look very different. IF you study the details you can see stuff that is not easy to see in the real swing. Maybe this is due to forces acting on the club that don't exist in slow motion. One thing that comes to mind is how pitchy and how open the face is in the concentration drill until very late. This is also visible in his drill at the end of the Shells match v. Snead. I think he was feeling that the face was open and his wrist were cupped until very late. Whether or not this actually occurred in the real swing isn't important to this thread, it is a feel that he was going for IMO.

Anyhow, I think this feel goes against every theory out there that says he consciously squared the face with the hands or wrists. (And PLEASE - no supination argument here - I am supination is there - but supination as a result of other factors without actively closing the face with the wrists, etc.).

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1350525341' post='5809707']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1350512912' post='5808649']
I don't want to post videos, and I am sure everyone here knows what I am talking about, so I don't feel the need to. But what comes to mind immediately for me is that the concentration drill is very different "looking" than his actual swing, so that may be a great insight into his actual feels / thoughts were. Also, in the Coleman video he talks about the right forefinger pressure point. He shows how to pressure it through a shot (not down), that is another "feel." Last, recall reading that he said that he didn't want to see his swing b/c he knew what it felt like - something to that effect.
[/quote]

Have you considered the possibility that his feels for his concentration drill and real swing were the same and the real swing just looks so much different because of the speed of it?
[/quote]

They don't look much different to me.......

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNlDRFvwxws"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNlDRFvwxws[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iWEtB-tbko"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iWEtB-tbko[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSZo43FwmTk&feature=relmfu"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSZo43FwmTk&feature=relmfu[/url]

Real swing on left, elbow drill on right

what did he feel? buttah!

Real swing on left, elbow drill on right

 

 

 

 

 

The one on the right is his demo of leading lower body action with a reduced speed swing, which is not the slo-mo elbow drill.

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1350667481' post='5817333']
The one on the right is his demo of leading lower body action with a reduced speed swing, which is not the slo-mo elbow drill.
[/quote]

My Hogan decoder glasses and mental interpretation see it as the slow-mo elbow drill, but I see things differently than most folks.

Kinda like if someone should ask me if the sun rises in the East or the West.......My response is "the stinkin sun never ever rises. It just sits there in the solar system in one spot." Now I see why my Science teacher called me "gifted" lol.

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1350671822' post='5817711']
MizunoJoe, safe to assume you play Mizuno irons?
[/quote]

MP-29's since 1995.

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1350670844' post='5817653']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1350667481' post='5817333']
The one on the right is his demo of leading lower body action with a reduced speed swing, which is not the slo-mo elbow drill.
[/quote]

Great way to put it. That's what I'm going to call my practice swing from now on - my reduced speed swing. I always hated the term "practice" swing. There's nothing about anything that happens before you hit a ball on the course that should be referred to as practice. The word practice implies the results don't matter, and I guess that's my point - what you do right before you step up to the ball sure does matter, specially the reduced speed swing. Ahh, sounds better, it does. The force is strong with you my friend.
[/quote]

I'm afraid my full on 95% swing looks more like Hogan's reduced speed demo than his real one!

he felt his right hand being very active. Shows up on video too. Prob felt a continuous pivot thrust all the way to the finish too.

Mr hogan has never struck me in the few video's I've seen of him and everything I've read about him as the kind of person that would directly mis-lead people. He had no need to because he understood that telling someone something doesn't make them automatically able to do it. You have to go learn how to do it yourself and find your own way. And the odds of you doing that without tearing your hair out and giving up are nil. And in the meantime he'd beat the pants off you because he already figured it out. He told us how he felt the golf swing, we just love to analyze and dissect it all as if we'll somehow get the answer that way. You gotta experientially feel it to know it and it won't feel the same even though it may be the same thing.

I've been hitting the gym a lot lately and I picked up an athletic yoga workout that I've been doing. It has made a huge impact on my ability to keep my lower center of gravity stable and back through the whole swing, which as you mentioned helps my hands un-load the club into the ball consistently. Feels so much easier now that I have a useable base to swing off of and my groin and hip flexors aren't welded in place, I highly recommend yoga and getting some strength in your hips, lower back, core and legs.

How can we really know what he felt...unless we ask him?

Didn't he say what he felt in 5L, 55 Life, 87 GD, Shell WWOG lecture, etc.?

But they're all difficult to reconcile with his vids and pics, so he must have been lying??

[quote name='jblacoustics' timestamp='1366520060' post='6886369']
Didn't he say what he felt in 5L, 55 Life, 87 GD, Shell WWOG lecture, etc.?

But they're all difficult to reconcile with his vids and pics, so he must have been lying??
[/quote]

Aren't these discrepancies examples of "feel vs. real", as the cliche goes?

[quote name='guisician' timestamp='1366533948' post='6886685']
[quote name='jblacoustics' timestamp='1366520060' post='6886369']
Didn't he say what he felt in 5L, 55 Life, 87 GD, Shell WWOG lecture, etc.?

But they're all difficult to reconcile with his vids and pics, so he must have been lying??
[/quote]

Aren't these discrepancies examples of "feel vs. real", as the cliche goes?
[/quote]

I don't think so. It's more like those are his intents and what he's thinking during the swing, but combo of other things going on (including those he didn't tell publicly) results to what we are on pics and vids.

[quote name='jblacoustics' timestamp='1366537993' post='6886729']
[quote name='guisician' timestamp='1366533948' post='6886685']
[quote name='jblacoustics' timestamp='1366520060' post='6886369']
Didn't he say what he felt in 5L, 55 Life, 87 GD, Shell WWOG lecture, etc.?

But they're all difficult to reconcile with his vids and pics, so he must have been lying??
[/quote]

Aren't these discrepancies examples of "feel vs. real", as the cliche goes?
[/quote]

I don't think so. It's more like those are his intents and what he's thinking during the swing, but combo of other things going on (including those he didn't tell publicly) results to what we are on pics and vids.
[/quote]

That's what I think too. I find it strange that some people think that mr hogan didn't know what he was doing. The funniest I've heard is that what he's written are decoys so his competitors never figure it out!!

It all gets very silly when we stop being open minded and are too rigid with our beliefs.

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1366554974' post='6887385']

That's what I think too. I find it strange that some people think that mr hogan didn't know what he was doing. The funniest I've heard is that what he's written are decoys so his competitors never figure it out!!

It all gets very silly when we stop being open minded and are too rigid with our beliefs.
[/quote]

I don't think the masses want to know the truth about the golf swing - it forces them to accept that there are no shortcuts and for someone who's spent years tracking down those shortcuts, it can be very disappointing. At best there are forks in the road, and even if avoiding the wrong road can save you a ton of time, you still have to walk the right path and explore the sensations in order to make adjustments that will last/work.

It's easier to say Hogan lied, misled, didn't understand etc. than it is to accept that what he was saying is simply beyond you because you lack the proper context to explore those possibilities. It's the reason he eventually went to his famous phrase, "it's in the dirt," when people asked for the secret. He realized early on that no answer would be sufficient because the concept that hard work and perseverance IS the holy grail to Golf, doesn't sit well with those looking to buy or more often "steal" a so called "secret". Moe Norman said you can't buy or steal a golf swing often, and Sam Snead down played it but over time he too admitted that teaching yourself the golf swing is the most efficient way to reach your own potential.

Most people want to believe that if someone tells them the right Hogan tip or they steal it by analyzing/stalking, they will magically transform into Ben Hogan, which is lunacy. It's the reason I don't safeguard anything I know. If it were as simple as telling someone the right way to swing, we'd have more Hogans by now. He was one of a kind because he approached the golf swing in a one of a kind way. If there is a secret, it's that if you have to think about what you're doing, you haven't "felt it" yet and you certainly can't rely on it on the course.

It's that simple (the idea, not swing itself) but as you guys can see, "feel" threads get very little attention in most forums. It's unfortunate because if we focused on feel more and less on mechanics, the mechanics would reveal themselves and more importantly they would become innate, rather than manufactured.

If you don't pay attention to mechanics and just rely on feels, what happens if that feel gets lost or differs in time??? Feels changes, mechanics don't...mechanics is the only way to have a consistent and fixed basis all throughout...btw, I think this is the exact reason many junior players almost always become inconsistent when they grow up and changes swings...they have no "foundation of knowledge" or mechanics...most of them just plainly play by feel when they're kids...

I think you gotta know the mechanics first, which in itself is a pain as there are gazillion variations out there, then after that pain (assuming you're still young enough to play..lol..) you gotta find the feels for you to do those mechanics...

[quote name='jblacoustics' timestamp='1367463707' post='6955209']
If you don't pay attention to mechanics and just rely on feels, what happens if that feel gets lost or differs in time??? Feels changes, mechanics don't...mechanics is the only way to have a consistent and fixed basis all throughout...btw, I think this is the exact reason many junior players almost always become inconsistent when they grow up and changes swings...they have no "foundation of knowledge" or mechanics...most of them just plainly play by feel when they're kids...

I think you gotta know the mechanics first, which in itself is a pain as there are gazillion variations out there, then after that pain (assuming you're still young enough to play..lol..) you gotta find the feels for you to do those mechanics...
[/quote]

You can't ignore mechanics, but it's the chicken or the egg, which comes first - mechanics leads to feel, or feel leads to proper mechanics? I argue the latter but like I mentioned earlier, nobody wants to hear that. Ultimately, I have nothing to gain from convincing you otherwise, so you do what makes you happy brother.

What did Hogan feel?

A salami under his armpit?

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1367499488' post='6956667']
What did Hogan feel?

A salami under his armpit?
[/quote]

That's funny, in a troll sort of way.

I don't know what he felt, but I know what my swing feels like and it starting to look like his - so common sense tells me the feels must be close also.

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1367500287' post='6956753']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1367499488' post='6956667']
What did Hogan feel?

A salami under his armpit?
[/quote]

That's funny, in a troll sort of way.

I don't know what he felt, but I know what my swing feels like and it starting to look like his - so common sense tells me the feels must be close also.
[/quote]

How's the ball flight looking?

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1367499488' post='6956667']
What did Hogan feel?

A salami under his armpit?
[/quote]

Bob Rotella: “What do you say to people who claim that, especially in your book, you didn’t do what you said you did in your golf swing?”

Mr. Hogan: “I described what I felt. That’s all I could do. I don’t know if I was doing it or not, but I said what it felt like."

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1370358619' post='7167274']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1367499488' post='6956667']
What did Hogan feel?

A salami under his armpit?
[/quote]

Bob Rotella: “What do you say to people who claim that, especially in your book, you didn’t do what you said you did in your golf swing?”

Mr. Hogan: “I described what I felt. That’s all I could do. I don’t know if I was doing it or not, but I said what it felt like."
[/quote]

That is a fantastic quote.

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1367500287' post='6956753']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1367499488' post='6956667']
What did Hogan feel?

A salami under his armpit?
[/quote]

That's funny, in a troll sort of way.

I don't know what he felt, but I know what my swing feels like and it starting to look like his - so common sense tells me the feels must be close also.
[/quote]

Takes time.

"You can learn good golf if you use the sense of feel. The soundness of the principle of golf instruction in my method has been demonstrated repeatedly by the caddies who've become great players. They don't learn first mastering the mechanics of the game. They begin by imitating some good player and subconsciously becoming clearly aware of the difference between the feeling that accompanies a good shot and the awkward feeling of a shot incorrectly made. The chances are that you don't recognize the *sensation* of a good swing "

- BEN HOGAN

Not a big TGM fan, but I do like this quote from Homer: "Let mechanics produce, and feel reproduce."

The problem with feel based learning (and more importantly instruction) is that everyone's feels are different and feels change over time (even day to day). As Hogan said in the above quote, they "copy a good player." What are they copying? Mechanics. It's right in 5L - He copied the knee action of the best amateur at Glen Garden. He copied the grip that the head pro taught him. He used feel to ingrain the movements.

For example, I have very active knees to start the the downswing (really too active) but I don't feel this move at all. So I have to think "quiet knees" to swing my best. But if I give that as a tip to some stiff-legged OTT hack it's a disaster. He may need to actively feel his left knee re-rotate toward the target. I also fight getting long and out of sync with my arm swing, so I have to feel as if my armswing is incredibly short (not past 9 O'clock high). Those are personal to me and [i][b]AT THIS TIME[/b][/i] in my swing development. Two years from now I may have my armswing so well synched and compact that I have to discard that feel. If some chop comes up to me at the range and asks me for help, if I told him my feels, it probably wouldn't help him at all, might even hurt, unless he has the same tendencies as me.

The best process is more what Homer was telling us. Check mechanics with the best available tools (video, trackman, ballflight, 3D machines, etc.). Even Hogan was quoted as saying once that if he'd had a video camera he'd have figured his swing out 10 years earlier. Figure out the pieces that need changing. Find a feel that helps create that change. Practice that feel or drill for long enough that the change takes hold and confirm the mechanics with those same tools. Move on to the next piece that needs changing. Repeat the process. In fact, if there are a set of drills that work for you, you can repeat them for the rest of your golfing life. "Cycling through the fundamentals" is what Casey Eberting calls it.