Most overrated big name architect is ???

Tom Fazio. Now I have only played a few Fazio tracks, but the two biggest names, World Woods (Pine Barrens) and Branson Creek, were not everything I expected. At the time, World Woods was the #26 public course in the country. We finished the round, all enjoyed the course, and all agreed that was an outrageous ranking. Branson Creek was consistently in the top 100 public up until 2-3 years ago. I played it in 2011 and was again underwhelmed.



Don't get me wrong, while both very nice courses, World Woods especially, I have to think that the Fazio stamp was more responsible for those ratings than the courses themselves.
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  • poizsterpoizster Members Posts: 2,338 ✭✭
    edited Feb 5, 2013 #2
    Donald Ross. Granted his name is attached to a lot of courses that he didn't have much to do with. Although, in my opinion, that's what makes perhaps not him, but the courses overrated.
  • dlygrissedlygrisse KansasMembers Posts: 13,442 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I think it all depends on what you are looking for, do you want subtle courses that use the natural terrain, or over-the-top designs like Whistling straights where they literally move heaven and earth to build a course? I think Pete Dye is overrated, and I think many architects most have never heard of are underrated. T



    If someone built Pinehurst #2 today there wouldn't be much fanfare, but the genius of Ross was subtle, a course that was challenging for the expert but easy enough for the average guy to get around without losing two cases of Titleists. The piece of land you are given and the budget you are given have a lot to do with it as well. Look at Pebble Beach, given that piece of land it would be hard for anyone to screw it up, 9 great holes and 9 pretty average ones, in my mind the design is nothing great, besides the fact it is an A++++ piece of real estate. So in my mind a course like #2 is a better design, but PB is a better property.



    Fazio is a really good architect IMO, someone like Dye is extravagant and someone who gets a PB is lucky. I have never played a Crenshaw design, but from what I have seen and read he is my type of architect, classic, natural yet fair and challenging both.

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  • poizsterpoizster Members Posts: 2,338 ✭✭
    edited Feb 5, 2013 #4
    dlygrisse wrote:


    I think it all depends on what you are looking for, do you want subtle courses that use the natural terrain, or over-the-top designs like Whistling straights where they literally move heaven and earth to build a course? I think Pete Dye is overrated, and I think many architects most have never heard of are underrated. T



    If someone built Pinehurst #2 today there wouldn't be much fanfare, but the genius of Ross was subtle, a course that was challenging for the expert but easy enough for the average guy to get around without losing two cases of Titleists. The piece of land you are given and the budget you are given have a lot to do with it as well. Look at Pebble Beach, given that piece of land it would be hard for anyone to screw it up, 9 great holes and 9 pretty average ones, in my mind the design is nothing great, besides the fact it is an A++++ piece of real estate. So in my mind a course like #2 is a better design, but PB is a better property.



    Fazio is a really good architect IMO, someone like Dye is extravagant and someone who gets a PB is lucky. I have never played a Crenshaw design, but from what I have seen and read he is my type of architect, classic, natural yet fair and challenging both.




    To explain myself a bit more I'm not saying Pinehurt #2 isn't a great design, it is. Especially considering he worked with rudimentary equipement and mules. I'm saying that Ross had such a big operation and it's well known that a lot of the times he didn't oversee or supervise courses while they were being built with his name attached to them. For as many courses as he did I suppose the law of averages comes into play and he's going to have some clunkers on his resume from time to time.



    As far as PB goes, I personally think it's one of the most overrated courses, but as you pointed out the land is immaculate.
  • jmckjmck Members Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Pete Dye or Greg Norman.
  • SawgrassSawgrass Members Posts: 15,180 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Dye overrated? Come on!



    16, 17 and 18 at Sawgrass are more fun than any three consecutive holes in the world -- and each a product of imagination rather than existing geography.



    Harbour Town's 7th, 9th, 13th and 14th are some of the greatest short holes anywhere.



    Teeth of the Dog and Dye Fore -- stunning.



    He basically invented the stadium course, and gave old railroad ties a reason to live



    I love him! What more do you want from the guy?
  • _MS22__MS22_ No Pressure, No Diamonds . . . ClubWRX Posts: 2,441
    Can't say any particular are over-rated as I have played many of the top guys best and have been underwhelmed by some from each.



    However that being said I'm a Coore & Crenshaw fan. I've been lucky enough to play Sand, Friar's, We-Ko-Pa, the No2 redo, Dormie and they are all fantastic.



    Underrated: Hanse and Hurdzan/Fry
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  • KYMARKYMAR Members Posts: 13,257 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Rees Jones.
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  • finalistfinalist MASHED POTATO! Members Posts: 5,411 ✭✭
    PB defintely has 7-9 great holes, but the rest is really averagel nice course design that can be found almost everywhere.
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  • Isaac_NewtonIsaac_Newton Lefty Boomers Posts: 468 ✭✭✭✭
    Jack Nicklaus. He (or probably his company) seems to create challenge through creating unnatural terrain features. Of the Nicklaus courses I have played extraordinarily deep green side bunkers and extremely hilly or mogul laden fairways seem to be the norm. Frustrating when you pipe a drive down the middle only to have an extreme downhill lie on a mogul.



    I don't agree with the Fazio analysis. He creates courses which are natural and offer risk reward decisions. The challenge is subtle but fun for the more astute golfer.



    Oh and whoever designed Wolf Creek in Mesquite NV should be beaten. I have only played from the tips (where they normally don't put tee markers) but this is a carnival course.
  • XJaredXJared Members Posts: 526
    Fazio has some great tracks, recently played Camp Creek in PC, FL, fantastic.



    Most overrated is Dye if you leave out Sawgrass.
  • bp29bp29 "Be kind & select your words wisely" Members Posts: 730
    edited Feb 6, 2013 #12
    dlygrisse wrote:


    I think it all depends on what you are looking for, do you want subtle courses that use the natural terrain, or over-the-top designs like Whistling straights where they literally move heaven and earth to build a course? I think Pete Dye is overrated, and I think many architects most have never heard of are underrated.




    I have to agree. I have played a few of Dyes courses. Sawgrass, Kiawa, Bulle Rock, Rum Point, Iron Valley, Mystic Rock,

    Harbour Town, & Kingsmill.



    The ones I Iiked was Kiawa, Bulle Rock, Rum Point. Harbour Town I though was a joke other than 16-18. Sawgrass I had high hopes and was disappointed. For being a so called "fifth major" I thought the course was sub par. I enjoyed the valley course even more.



    Plus Harbour Town and Sawgrass were in horrible shape for the money you pay to play these courses. They could @ least be somewhat nice and no this had nothing to do with my decision. They layouts just were not to my liking. All the other ones were in nice to great shape.



    My club has 3 course designed by Maurice McCarthy, George Fazio, and Hurdzan/Fry. I will agree that Hurdzan/Fry is underrated and the Fazio course is quite good.



    One I also think is underrated is Gary Player. Played a couple of his courses and was quite impressed.



    As for Nicklaus, same as Dye some good some bad.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • ckates7ckates7 Members Posts: 395 ✭✭
    +1 for Rees Jones.
  • SawgrassSawgrass Members Posts: 15,180 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    XJared wrote:




    Most overrated is Dye if you leave out Sawgrass.




    I agree that I'm overrated if this comment is about me.



    But I'm thinking it's about Pete, so I just called him to tell try and him of your disappointment. Unfortunately he was at the 18th at Kiawah Island's Ocean Course, and couldn't hear me because the group that just came off 18 was carrying him on their shoulders in thanks, singing, "Fore he's a jolly good designer."



    There was a bit of a catch in their voices. I'm not sure if it was because the course just beat the snot out of them, or if it was due to their intense emotion.
  • SawgrassSawgrass Members Posts: 15,180 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Now I'm thinking maybe someone lost a ball on 17 at Sawgrass and is still unhappy about it.



    (Sorry, I know, to each his own, but I don't want the old guy to read this thread and quit!)
  • bp29bp29 "Be kind & select your words wisely" Members Posts: 730
    Sawgrass wrote:


    Now I'm thinking maybe someone lost a ball on 17 at Sawgrass and is still unhappy about it.



    (Sorry, I know, to each his own, but I don't want the old guy to read this thread and quit!)




    Hope I'm not the old guy? Lol



    If I am I didn't lose a ball I actually birdied the hole and shot 75. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
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  • SawgrassSawgrass Members Posts: 15,180 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    bp29 wrote:

    Sawgrass wrote:


    Now I'm thinking maybe someone lost a ball on 17 at Sawgrass and is still unhappy about it.



    (Sorry, I know, to each his own, but I don't want the old guy to read this thread and quit!)




    Hope I'm not the old guy? Lol



    If I am I didn't lose a ball I actually birdied the hole and shot 75. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />




    LOL, no, the old guy I was talking about was Pete. But I don't want you to quit either! Nice 75!
  • TheCityGameTheCityGame Traj like Minaj Members Posts: 15,631 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I never really like getting into "overrated" discussions because who is to say how "rated" a guy is.



    But, the only Pete Dye course I've played was Bulle Rock. Interesting, fair, fun, beautiful. I don't know how high I'd have to rate a guy to play that course and think he was "overrated".



    And, I really like "PB Dye" (that's Pete Dye's son, and the name of a course in Maryland).
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  • bp29bp29 "Be kind & select your words wisely" Members Posts: 730


    I never really like getting into "overrated" discussions because who is to say how "rated" a guy is.



    But, the only Pete Dye course I've played was Bulle Rock. Interesting, fair, fun, beautiful. I don't know how high I'd have to rate a guy to play that course and think he was "overrated".



    And, I really like "PB Dye" (that's Pete Dye's son, and the name of a course in Maryland).




    Bulle Rock is very enjoyable. I try to get down there once every two years. As for PB Dye Golf Club. Bring your A game very challenging. Conditions though were so so when I played there but good track.
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  • cbehancbehan Members Posts: 200
    I'm shocked RTJ isn't mentioned. He'd get my vote.



    Not a Dye fan either...he relies too much on tricking golfers, or using gimmicks.
  • jmckjmck Members Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Sawgrass wrote:


    Dye overrated? Come on!



    16, 17 and 18 at Sawgrass are more fun than any three consecutive holes in the world -- and each a product of imagination rather than existing geography.






    I think that's exactly what people don't like about his designs. He'd be helpless without a fleet of bulldozers, and his imagination runs towards building video game courses.



    If you're in Stanford, CT, you're surrounded by Ross, Tillinghast, and Cornish tracks. Those guys could build three fun holes in a row with a shovel and some grass seed--and of course their imagination. image/rolleyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rolleyes:' />
  • G_M_TG_M_T Members Posts: 204
    Greg Norman by a mile, then Rees Jones and Nicklaus
  • vpdvpd Members Posts: 119
    Rating golf course architects is like voting in a beauty pageant. Everyone has different tastes when it comes to course layouts. Also, many times the architect is somewhat constrained by the quality of the land he has been given. With that said, I agree that Dye's designs for the most part are gimmicky--although I do love his Teeth of the Dog course at Casa De Campo. For my tastes Dye is very overrated but I have several friends who are good golfers that would vehemently disagree with me. Same for Nicklaus. I do like most of Tom Fazio's courses.



    Personally I would choose Coore/Crenshaw and Tom Doak as being two of today's top golf course architects who are very underrated. They have done some fabulous work at Bandon Dunes,Cabot Links,Colorado Golf Club(2013 Solheim Cup venue) as well as many others. It is interesting to me that Mike Keiser who created Bandon Dunes didn't use either Nicklaus or Dye for even one course. I think it's because he wanted to avoid gimmickry and adhere to more a more classical style of old world golf archictecture(i.e. Old Tom Morris,Alistair MacKenzie).
  • lordbyronlordbyron Members Posts: 368
    edited Feb 6, 2013 #24
    I can say that I haven't met a too many golf courses I didn't like, with the exception of a local course that starts par 3 (island green, no driving range) par 5 par 3. Log jam, no way around it. The only Dye experience I have is the courses at Kohler, and with the benefit of either a caddy or yardage book I think they are excellent and very fair. If you put a gun to my head I think I would tell you that Black Wolf Run was my favorite. I also had the best weather and played the best that day... Someone could certainly have an opinion on how they were created but the courses are beautiful and if played from the correct set of tees very fair. You do have to really trust your lines off the tee and you will have some that do seem off but it seems like that is part of what a Dye course is. It seemed to me that there for the most part was always fair landing area.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • SawgrassSawgrass Members Posts: 15,180 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    jmck wrote:

    Sawgrass wrote:


    Dye overrated? Come on!



    16, 17 and 18 at Sawgrass are more fun than any three consecutive holes in the world -- and each a product of imagination rather than existing geography.






    I think that's exactly what people don't like about his designs. He'd be helpless without a fleet of bulldozers, and his imagination runs towards building video game courses.



    If you're in Stanford, CT, you're surrounded by Ross, Tillinghast, and Cornish tracks. Those guys could build three fun holes in a row with a shovel and some grass seed--and of course their imagination. image/rolleyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rolleyes:' />




    Yes, I'm in Stamford, but the golf course that is the closest to me is Dye's relatively new Pound Ridge in New York, which is perhaps little known but awesome. (I woudn't want to play it every day though, because it's so hard it would make me cry!)



    I appreciate Ross, Tillinghast and Cornish too, I'm just defending Dye. He has both made something from nothing at Sawgrass (and gets criticized for using imagination and equipment) and has followed the grand landscape at Casa de Campo.



    I suppose I can understand a choice not to like his style since it's so distinct (and polarizing), but I can't accept that he's "overrated." IMO he well deserves his notariety.



    I'll shut up now, even I am getting tired of hearing me.
  • bp29bp29 "Be kind & select your words wisely" Members Posts: 730
    edited Feb 6, 2013 #26
    cbehan wrote:


    I'm shocked RTJ isn't mentioned. He'd get my vote.



    Not a Dye fan either...he relies too much on tricking golfers, or using gimmicks.




    I forgot about him. Played a couple of tracks of his. One definitely comes to mind. Island of Kaui, The Price Course. How that is rated number one (last time I checked) i have no clue. I have played quite a few there and that was not one of them.
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  • kellygreenkellygreen Members Posts: 6,413 ✭✭
    adamjstl wrote:


    Tom Fazio. Now I have only played a few Fazio tracks, but the two biggest names, World Woods (Pine Barrens) and Branson Creek, were not everything I expected. At the time, World Woods was the #26 public course in the country. We finished the round, all enjoyed the course, and all agreed that was an outrageous ranking. Branson Creek was consistently in the top 100 public up until 2-3 years ago. I played it in 2011 and was again underwhelmed.



    Don't get me wrong, while both very nice courses, World Woods especially, I have to think that the Fazio stamp was more responsible for those ratings than the courses themselves.




    The most over-rated in my book is Jack.



    His courses generally are variations on the same design:



    1. Wide fairways that generally favor a fade.



    2. (On his more playable courses) Narrow greens surrounded by lots of trouble. Again, favoring a high fade.



    3. (On his more --unprintable---courses) Greens that have lots of unnatural swales and other contours, that can leave you still struggling to make par even after hitting your approach to the center of the green.
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  • lordbyronlordbyron Members Posts: 368
    kellygreen wrote:

    adamjstl wrote:


    Tom Fazio. Now I have only played a few Fazio tracks, but the two biggest names, World Woods (Pine Barrens) and Branson Creek, were not everything I expected. At the time, World Woods was the #26 public course in the country. We finished the round, all enjoyed the course, and all agreed that was an outrageous ranking. Branson Creek was consistently in the top 100 public up until 2-3 years ago. I played it in 2011 and was again underwhelmed.



    Don't get me wrong, while both very nice courses, World Woods especially, I have to think that the Fazio stamp was more responsible for those ratings than the courses themselves.




    The most over-rated in my book is Jack.



    His courses generally are variations on the same design:



    1. Wide fairways that generally favor a fade.



    2. (On his more playable courses) Narrow greens surrounded by lots of trouble. Again, favoring a high fade.



    3. (On his more --unprintable---courses) Greens that have lots of unnatural swales and other contours, that can leave you still struggling to make par even after hitting your approach to the center of the green.




    3. Harbor Shores........ elephant burial ground..... That being said I would go back....weird layout though.
  • teejaywhyteejaywhy Official GolfWRX Curmudgeon Members Posts: 7,205 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Have to agree about Nicklaus, although I find the bold green contours the more fun elements of his designs, the approach shots can be truly ball-busters. I read an interview with him where he claimed that only expert golfers such as himself are qualified to design golf courses. I found that to be incredibly arrogant and it solidified my dislike. For me, his courses are not fun to play for me, a golfer with average skills.



    I am most happy to see a slow shift away from the excesses of the 80's and 90's and toward more natural, "minimalist" if you will, designs. Instead of building courses that focus on providing striking visual aesthetics that are mostly about selling real estate or resort rooms and being able to advertise the highest slope rating in town, I am encouraged to see more designers building courses that are all about the golf and creating interesting designs that invoke thought and strategy and are fun to play for both good and not so good golfers.



    I hope the trend continues and it should as long as golfers begin to rethink the popular value system that holds in high regard the course that "beats the snot out of them."
  • Judge SmalesJudge Smales Members Posts: 793 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • BubbBubb Members Posts: 1,315 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Tom Fazio is the best, in my book.

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