Most overrated big name architect is ???

2456710

Comments

  • jsheljshel Members Posts: 646 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Totally agree with everyone who said Rees Jones.



    My buddy played a Rees course the other day and Tweeted how he's still 0-for-life on enjoying Rees courses.
    Driver: Titleist TS3 9.5 degrees Mitsubishi Tensei shaft
    3W: TaylorMade M1
    Hybrid: Callaway XR 19 degree
    Irons: PXG XF Gen 2 Steelfiber shafts
    Wedges: Vokey SM6 54, 58
    Putter: Cameron & Crown Fastback
  • PINSEEKER72PINSEEKER72 Members Posts: 588 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • Pure745Pure745 CPC #15 Members Posts: 11,487 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    stage1350 wrote:


    Dye. He's a closet ****.




    +1 on Dye.
    [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Titleist TS3 8.5 - Fujikura TR7
    Titleist 917F2 15 - Fujikura Speeder 857 Evo2 Proto
    Mizuno 919T - KBS CTL
    Mizuno S18 46/50
    [/font]

    [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Vokey 54V/60V
    Scotty Cameron 009 Tool Box


    Instagram: @pure745 https://www.instagram.com/pure745/[/font]
  • kellygreenkellygreen Members Posts: 6,413 ✭✭
    edited Feb 7, 2013 #35
    stage1350 wrote:


    Dye. He's a closet ****.




    I disagree that Dye's over-rated...but his design philosophy IS sadistic.
    PIng G25 8.5/Fuji MS 7.2 TS X
    Ping Rapture 13*/Fuji MS 7.2 TS X
    Ping G25 19*/Fuji MS 7.2 TS X
    Ping S55 (3-PW)/ PX 6.5
    Ping Tour Gorge 54* and 60*
    Odyssey 2-ball Versa, 34"
  • adamjstladamjstl Members Posts: 565 ✭✭
    Speaking of Nickalaus, anyone who has played Stonewolf is rolling their eyes. Located just outside St. Louis, this course is just not much fun to play. The greens are just overkill, with an endless array of levels, shelves, terraces, etc. Nothing about it seems, looks, or plays naturally. The first hole is a forced lay-up to stay short of a deep ravine. If you hit it to the very end, you still have 150 left all carry. A smart, conservative tee shot leaves probably 165 170 left, which is at least a 5 iron for average players. On a downslope. All carry to the green.



    Number 2 is a medium-length par 3 with a 3 level green titled from left to right. Out of bounds left. Woods right. Bunkers everywhere. I'm a 1 handicap and have only parred the hole 3 times out probably 10.



    Number 3 has a green that is not describable.



    Etc, etc, etc.



    Didn't mean to rant, but the other guys explanation of Nickalaus courses was dead-on.
  • jptruckjptruck Unregistered Posts: 842
    New to the forum. . .You guys are beating on Dye pretty good, but Pete Dye Golf Club in WV and the Dye Preserve Golf Club in south Florida are really special courses. He's a classic designer in the form of Seth Raynor that just modified the angles of the older architects. It's genius, I think.



    Nicklaus is way overrated and Rees Jones is not my favorite.
  • poppyhillsguypoppyhillsguy Members Posts: 3,149 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Jack Nicklaus with Johnny Miller coming in a close second.
  • cbehancbehan Members Posts: 200
    adamjstl wrote:


    Speaking of Nickalaus, anyone who has played Stonewolf is rolling their eyes. Located just outside St. Louis, this course is just not much fun to play. The greens are just overkill, with an endless array of levels, shelves, terraces, etc. Nothing about it seems, looks, or plays naturally. The first hole is a forced lay-up to stay short of a deep ravine. If you hit it to the very end, you still have 150 left all carry. A smart, conservative tee shot leaves probably 165 170 left, which is at least a 5 iron for average players. On a downslope. All carry to the green.



    Number 2 is a medium-length par 3 with a 3 level green titled from left to right. Out of bounds left. Woods right. Bunkers everywhere. I'm a 1 handicap and have only parred the hole 3 times out probably 10.



    Number 3 has a green that is not describable.



    Etc, etc, etc.



    Didn't mean to rant, but the other guys explanation of Nickalaus courses was dead-on.




    Couldn't agree more on Stonewolf...it's a quirky course to say the least. 5,8,9,12 and 15 are good holes. There are a few decent holes, and a lot of trash. That being said, I've played some Jack courses that I thought were pretty **** good start to finish (like Great Waters in Reynolds Plantation).



    I feel much the same way about Arthur Hills' Pevely Farms...some good holes, some absolute crap, but his Longaberger GC is outstanding.





    I think I vote RTJ simply because I feel he had an overall negative impact on golf course design for the better part of 40 years. He was the original one who stretched courses out and started designing courses for golf carts only. If you want to know why we have 6 hour rounds during summer weekends, I think no one had a greater impact on that than RTJ.



    I can see Dye simply because I think there's a fine line between a genius course architect and simply a creative guy with a bulldozer. Dye would unquestionably be the latter.



    I won't call Fazio a great designer, but I tend to like his courses because they fit my game well. He tends to play longer par 3s so he can give you some good shots at reaching par 5s in two. He tends to make drives appear more daunting from the tee than they really are (which is the exact opposite of Dye). Courses like Missouri Bluffs, Branson Creek, Osprey Ridge, and The National (Reynolds Plantation) are pretty **** nice courses with good variety that play pretty fair for golfers of all levels. I just don't feel he's that overrated because I don't think he's rated that high. I certainly wouldn't put him in the Doak/C&C/Dye/Nicklaus/Hanse/any of the pre-RTJ guys category.
  • teejaywhyteejaywhy Official GolfWRX Curmudgeon Members Posts: 7,206 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Feb 8, 2013 #40
    jptruck wrote:


    New to the forum. . .You guys are beating on Dye pretty good, but Pete Dye Golf Club in WV and the Dye Preserve Golf Club in south Florida are really special courses. He's a classic designer in the form of Seth Raynor that just modified the angles of the older architects. It's genius, I think.



    cbehan wrote:


    I think I vote RTJ simply because I feel he had an overall negative impact on golf course design for the better part of 40 years. He was the original one who stretched courses out and started designing courses for golf carts only. If you want to know why we have 6 hour rounds during summer weekends, I think no one had a greater impact on that than RTJ.



    I can see Dye simply because I think there's a fine line between a genius course architect and simply a creative guy with a bulldozer. Dye would unquestionably be the latter.






    I quoted the two posts because I believe that Pete Dye can be linked to Jones in the evolution of golf architecture because Dye was the guy who turned heads and shocked the golf world by introducing courses that were a tremendously huge shift away from the RTJ style.



    An interesting comparison of Dye and Raynor but one that has merit. Raynor's stuff is highly regarded yet his style was very geometric and unnatural looking. But the designs are all about strategy and shotmaking. I agree that Dye reintroduced this concept with courses that were not about length and brute force but about positioning and finesse. Harbor Town would be the well known example.



    I believe Sawgrass was a turning point for Pete, once he heard all the teeth gnashing and wailing from the pay-for-play guys, who were largely uncomfortable with having the element of thought reintroduced to the game, he sort of went off and started making crazier and crazier stuff to torture the better players. I think if you are not a scratch golfer, you can enjoy Pete's courses from about 6000 yards. I appreciate the Dye style, but as one who values the more natural-looking layouts, I do find his stuff to be jarring to the eye. I also think he uses water way too much. And while he island green par three is certainly an entertaining thing to watch on TV, it is an awful feature for the everyday golf course and the concept has spawned an unfortunate number of bad imitations.



    Cbehan's mention of RTJ is on target. His concept of "heroic" style golf led to the embrace of more penal elements. He was one of the first to make green side water hazards a standard feature. His ascent to the top coincided with the growth and popularity of the PGA Tour and he happily took on the job of toughening course design to challenge the top golfers, achieving the title of the Open Doctor for his remodels of older classic courses for modern competition. This led to a generation of course designs that favored ever longer and more difficult style, much to the detriment of the game for the average player (IMO).
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • jptruckjptruck Unregistered Posts: 842
    I grew up playing an early Dye course (Amelia). Later in life, I've had the privilege playing Pete Dye Golf Club many, many times, and actually played with Dye, himself. He is a rascal, for sure, but no dummy. Some of his more criticized work were at the request of the owner/developer. Sawgrass, Kiawah, the Medalist are all impossible for a reason.



    His later work (post Sawgrass) is very much in the Raynor school. Go play Yeamans Hall or Shoreacres and you'll see an architect that heavily altered the environment to create steep drop offs and hard edge greens. It's very similar to Dye except Dye changed the attack angles. That's why Pete is the master of illusion. He generally gives more room than what you can see



    Dye is re-doing a heavily-altered Ross course in Florida that I play quite often. At first, I cringed at the thought of him messing with a perfectly respectable course, but the results (9 holes so far) are spectacular. He actually renovated to what Ross intended while adding some of his personal flair in spots. The old nine just seems tired compared to the renovated work.
  • Sean2Sean2 #TheWRX (Callaway Trip) Members Posts: 30,826 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Pure745 wrote:

    stage1350 wrote:


    Dye. He's a closet ****.




    +1 on Dye.




    +2 on Dye.
    [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Callaway Rogue[/font]
    [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Callaway GBB Epic 16º/20º/24º[/font]
    [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Callaway Steelhead XR 25º[/font]
    [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Callaway Apex CF16 6-AW [/font]
    [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Callaway MD3/MD-PM 54º/58º[/font]
    [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Callaway "O" Works #7[/font]
  • jewofgolfjewofgolf Members Posts: 3,364 ✭✭
    cbehan wrote:

    adamjstl wrote:


    Speaking of Nickalaus, anyone who has played Stonewolf is rolling their eyes. Located just outside St. Louis, this course is just not much fun to play. The greens are just overkill, with an endless array of levels, shelves, terraces, etc. Nothing about it seems, looks, or plays naturally. The first hole is a forced lay-up to stay short of a deep ravine. If you hit it to the very end, you still have 150 left all carry. A smart, conservative tee shot leaves probably 165 170 left, which is at least a 5 iron for average players. On a downslope. All carry to the green.



    Number 2 is a medium-length par 3 with a 3 level green titled from left to right. Out of bounds left. Woods right. Bunkers everywhere. I'm a 1 handicap and have only parred the hole 3 times out probably 10.



    Number 3 has a green that is not describable.



    Etc, etc, etc.



    Didn't mean to rant, but the other guys explanation of Nickalaus courses was dead-on.




    Couldn't agree more on Stonewolf...it's a quirky course to say the least. 5,8,9,12 and 15 are good holes. There are a few decent holes, and a lot of trash. That being said, I've played some Jack courses that I thought were pretty **** good start to finish (like Great Waters in Reynolds Plantation).



    I feel much the same way about Arthur Hills' Pevely Farms...some good holes, some absolute crap, but his Longaberger GC is outstanding.





    I think I vote RTJ simply because I feel he had an overall negative impact on golf course design for the better part of 40 years. He was the original one who stretched courses out and started designing courses for golf carts only. If you want to know why we have 6 hour rounds during summer weekends, I think no one had a greater impact on that than RTJ.



    I can see Dye simply because I think there's a fine line between a genius course architect and simply a creative guy with a bulldozer. Dye would unquestionably be the latter.



    I won't call Fazio a great designer, but I tend to like his courses because they fit my game well. He tends to play longer par 3s so he can give you some good shots at reaching par 5s in two. He tends to make drives appear more daunting from the tee than they really are (which is the exact opposite of Dye). Courses like Missouri Bluffs, Branson Creek, Osprey Ridge, and The National (Reynolds Plantation) are pretty **** nice courses with good variety that play pretty fair for golfers of all levels. I just don't feel he's that overrated because I don't think he's rated that high. I certainly wouldn't put him in the Doak/C&C/Dye/Nicklaus/Hanse/any of the pre-RTJ guys category.




    I disagree with you both on Stonewolf. It's a tight, but fair course that makes you think and varies the challenge. In addition, the tee boxes are all flat (and so they are at every other Nicklaus course I have played) and the greens are big enough. I have played other tight courses that are just plain stupid due to giving absolutely zero room to miss or be creative. Clinton Hill, for example is one like this. Lots of OB right next to the fairway, some very "target" oriented holes, and small greens. It's funny that I actually played pretty well there in a USGA qualifier. Anyway, we all have different tastes I guess.
  • sprospro Members Posts: 110
  • mikpgamikpga www.mikedeitersgolf.com Members Posts: 7,393 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I will go along with Jack, but love many of his tracks...



    Especially don't understand all the hype of Valhalla?
  • ebr2384ebr2384 Members Posts: 45
    Sawgrass wrote:


    Dye overrated? Come on!



    16, 17 and 18 at Sawgrass are more fun than any three consecutive holes in the world -- and each a product of imagination rather than existing geography.



    Harbour Town's 7th, 9th, 13th and 14th are some of the greatest short holes anywhere.



    Teeth of the Dog and Dye Fore -- stunning.



    He basically invented the stadium course, and gave old railroad ties a reason to live



    I love him! What more do you want from the guy?






    I live in the Dominican Republic where Pete Dye has done many courses and have played other Dye courses in the US and have to agree that his courses although usually very difficult are nice works. I would say that Norman is probably the worst of the big names.
  • One_Putt_BlunderOne_Putt_Blunder Members Posts: 10,823 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Anyone who uses an island green



    and on a bit more serious note



    Nicklaus prob number 1 in my book with Dye number 2
    [twitter]oneputtblunder[/twitter]
    10.5 Aeroburner TP Fujikura Speeder Pro XLR8
    14.5 X2 Hot 3 Deep Tour Green
    18* X2 Hot Pro Hybrid
    RSI TP 4-PW KBS Tour 120
    Byron Morgan DH89 Rincon Neck deep mill or Circa 62 No 2
    Vokey 52/56/60 SM5/TVDK/TVDVgrind DG S300
    WITB Link
  • fore_lifefore_life Swung too hard, hit it too pure. Members Posts: 10,397 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Seems that Normans work is hated, didn't he offer to redo medalist for free and they told him to kick rocks?
    Ping G400 LST Ust Attas Earth 9f5
    M4 15* with bimatrix rocket X
    Titleist 21* H2 evenflow blue 6.5
    718 tmb 4 iron
    718 cb 5-pw amt x100 tour
    Vokeys
    Cleveland TA milled 1i


    Various other putters currently in the closet,
    thinking about what they've done wrong,
    and how they've hurt me so.
  • teejaywhyteejaywhy Official GolfWRX Curmudgeon Members Posts: 7,206 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    fore_life wrote:


    Seems that Normans work is hated, didn't he offer to redo medalist for free and they told him to kick rocks?




    His one design in Arizona was completely plowed under and redone before the club ever opened!!
  • fore_lifefore_life Swung too hard, hit it too pure. Members Posts: 10,397 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    teejaywhy wrote:

    fore_life wrote:


    Seems that Normans work is hated, didn't he offer to redo medalist for free and they told him to kick rocks?




    His one design in Arizona was completely plowed under and redone before the club ever opened!!






    Hahah typical Norman finish
    Ping G400 LST Ust Attas Earth 9f5
    M4 15* with bimatrix rocket X
    Titleist 21* H2 evenflow blue 6.5
    718 tmb 4 iron
    718 cb 5-pw amt x100 tour
    Vokeys
    Cleveland TA milled 1i


    Various other putters currently in the closet,
    thinking about what they've done wrong,
    and how they've hurt me so.
  • TrumanTruman Members Posts: 565 ✭✭
    +1 Nicklaus He does each course the same,
  • ckates7ckates7 Members Posts: 395 ✭✭
    edited Feb 12, 2013 #52
    Gonna have to bring up Rees Jones again. He had 1 job at Cog Hill....Make it US Open worthy. Not only will it never host a US Open, but it now has lost hosting any PGA tournament after having a tournament there every year except one from 1991-2011. Good Job Rees, you have lost all credibility for any future.



    Also, for those that talk about RTJ ruining golf by stretching them out. Remember that Rees was VP of RTJ, Inc. from 1964-74 and basically designed all courses on the east coast under the RTJ name. Not to mention he is RTJ's son as well.
  • asualumasualum ClubWRX Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    So who's the most underrated?
  • asualumasualum ClubWRX Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    teejaywhy wrote:

    fore_life wrote:


    Seems that Normans work is hated, didn't he offer to redo medalist for free and they told him to kick rocks?




    His one design in Arizona was completely plowed under and redone before the club ever opened!!




    Which course was that? Mirabel?
  • fore_lifefore_life Swung too hard, hit it too pure. Members Posts: 10,397 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Schmidt/Curley?
    Ping G400 LST Ust Attas Earth 9f5
    M4 15* with bimatrix rocket X
    Titleist 21* H2 evenflow blue 6.5
    718 tmb 4 iron
    718 cb 5-pw amt x100 tour
    Vokeys
    Cleveland TA milled 1i


    Various other putters currently in the closet,
    thinking about what they've done wrong,
    and how they've hurt me so.
  • One_Putt_BlunderOne_Putt_Blunder Members Posts: 10,823 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    fore_life wrote:


    Schmidt/Curley?




    Definitely, played Southern Dunes and Terra Lago in Palm Springs all are fantastic tracks.
    [twitter]oneputtblunder[/twitter]
    10.5 Aeroburner TP Fujikura Speeder Pro XLR8
    14.5 X2 Hot 3 Deep Tour Green
    18* X2 Hot Pro Hybrid
    RSI TP 4-PW KBS Tour 120
    Byron Morgan DH89 Rincon Neck deep mill or Circa 62 No 2
    Vokey 52/56/60 SM5/TVDK/TVDVgrind DG S300
    WITB Link
  • bp29bp29 "Be kind & select your words wisely" Members Posts: 730
    spro wrote:


    Gary Player




    I've played a good Gary Player course in Rasberry Falls and thought it was challenging. As for Rees Jones. I will admit he did screw up some good US Open venues but in turn I have played numerous of his designs and was very pleased with them.
    Putter? Whatever Works
  • ckates7ckates7 Members Posts: 395 ✭✭
    Underrated would be Ron Garl
  • teejaywhyteejaywhy Official GolfWRX Curmudgeon Members Posts: 7,206 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    asualum wrote:

    teejaywhy wrote:

    fore_life wrote:


    Seems that Normans work is hated, didn't he offer to redo medalist for free and they told him to kick rocks?




    His one design in Arizona was completely plowed under and redone before the club ever opened!!




    Which course was that? Mirabel?




    Mirabel, Yes. The project was originally called Stonehaven. The course was completed and fully turfed when the property changed ownership and the new owners brought in Fazio to start over.
  • adamjstladamjstl Members Posts: 565 ✭✭
    jewofgolf wrote:

    cbehan wrote:

    adamjstl wrote:


    Speaking of Nickalaus, anyone who has played Stonewolf is rolling their eyes. Located just outside St. Louis, this course is just not much fun to play. The greens are just overkill, with an endless array of levels, shelves, terraces, etc. Nothing about it seems, looks, or plays naturally. The first hole is a forced lay-up to stay short of a deep ravine. If you hit it to the very end, you still have 150 left all carry. A smart, conservative tee shot leaves probably 165 170 left, which is at least a 5 iron for average players. On a downslope. All carry to the green.



    Number 2 is a medium-length par 3 with a 3 level green titled from left to right. Out of bounds left. Woods right. Bunkers everywhere. I'm a 1 handicap and have only parred the hole 3 times out probably 10.



    Number 3 has a green that is not describable.



    Etc, etc, etc.



    Didn't mean to rant, but the other guys explanation of Nickalaus courses was dead-on.




    Couldn't agree more on Stonewolf...it's a quirky course to say the least. 5,8,9,12 and 15 are good holes. There are a few decent holes, and a lot of trash. That being said, I've played some Jack courses that I thought were pretty **** good start to finish (like Great Waters in Reynolds Plantation).



    I feel much the same way about Arthur Hills' Pevely Farms...some good holes, some absolute crap, but his Longaberger GC is outstanding.





    I think I vote RTJ simply because I feel he had an overall negative impact on golf course design for the better part of 40 years. He was the original one who stretched courses out and started designing courses for golf carts only. If you want to know why we have 6 hour rounds during summer weekends, I think no one had a greater impact on that than RTJ.



    I can see Dye simply because I think there's a fine line between a genius course architect and simply a creative guy with a bulldozer. Dye would unquestionably be the latter.



    I won't call Fazio a great designer, but I tend to like his courses because they fit my game well. He tends to play longer par 3s so he can give you some good shots at reaching par 5s in two. He tends to make drives appear more daunting from the tee than they really are (which is the exact opposite of Dye). Courses like Missouri Bluffs, Branson Creek, Osprey Ridge, and The National (Reynolds Plantation) are pretty **** nice courses with good variety that play pretty fair for golfers of all levels. I just don't feel he's that overrated because I don't think he's rated that high. I certainly wouldn't put him in the Doak/C&C/Dye/Nicklaus/Hanse/any of the pre-RTJ guys category.




    I disagree with you both on Stonewolf. It's a tight, but fair course that makes you think and varies the challenge. In addition, the tee boxes are all flat (and so they are at every other Nicklaus course I have played) and the greens are big enough. I have played other tight courses that are just plain stupid due to giving absolutely zero room to miss or be creative. Clinton Hill, for example is one like this. Lots of OB right next to the fairway, some very "target" oriented holes, and small greens. It's funny that I actually played pretty well there in a USGA qualifier. Anyway, we all have different tastes I guess.




    At least at Clinton Hill you have SOMEWHERE to miss. Stonewolf you can easily lose a ball and/or OB on both sides of the hole on the opening 4 holes!!

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file