Most overrated big name architect is ???

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  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,960 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    QMany wrote:



    Most overrated: Crenshaw. He ruined Pinehurst #2. I also think the old timers (Ross, MacKenzie, Maxwell,Tillinghast, etc) as a group are way overrated. Many people who rate courses give extra credit for the old timers. A good example is Prairie Dunes. It's a really good course and generally rated in the top 50. I can list 20 Nicklaus courses I like better.



    My favorite architect is Nicklaus. I've played 31 of his courses and love almost all of them. The "Nicklaus designs courses for a fade" statement is a myth.


    You have played 20 courses better than PD, let alone 20 Nicklaus courses? I am very interested in this list.




    Sorry for the late reply. Here are the Nicklaus courses I have played. I would rather play the bolded courses than PD. PD is a wonderful course, just somewhat overrated.



    Castle Pines Golf Club

    Cabo Del Sol - Ocean

    Eldorado

    Shoal Creek

    The Challenge at Manele

    Castle Pines Country Club

    Kauii Lagoons Kiele

    PGA West - Nicklaus

    Hills of Lakeway

    Glen Abbey

    Hualalai

    Vista Vallarta - Nicklaus

    Palmilla

    Reflection Bay

    Country Club of the South

    PGA National - Champion

    La Paloma

    Grand Cypress New Course

    Bears Best

    Breckenridge Golf Club

    Club Campestre San Jose

    Desert Mountain Apache

    Desert Mountain Chiricahua

    Desert Mountain Cochise

    Desert Mountain Geronimo

    Desert Mountain Outlaw

    Desert Mountain Renegade

    English Turn

    Flintrock Falls

    Nicklaus North, Whistler

    Puerto Los Cabos

    Summit Rock

    The Eagles, Forest Course
  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,960 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Guia wrote:


    Roadking2003: You have played 31 of the Nicklaus' courses? Wow, I have been playing 50 years and doubt that I have played 5 of Nicklaus' courses. I think you greatly exaggerate.



    As a side note I was curious as to how many courses Nicklaus (his company) has designed. I think he is one of the most busy designers ever, there has to be easily over 300 world wide. Wow.




    No exaggeration at all. I travel a lot and go on a lot of golf trips. I was also in sales for 20 years and took customers to a lot of very nice courses. Here is the list of Nicklaus courses I have played. The first one (Castle Pines Golf Club) was in 1998. I added two more this year (Desert Mountain Outlaw and Puerto Los Cabos).



    Castle Pines Golf Club

    Cabo Del Sol - Ocean

    Eldorado

    Shoal Creek

    The Challenge at Manele

    Castle Pines Country Club

    Kauii Lagoons Kiele

    PGA West - Nicklaus

    Hills of Lakeway

    Glen Abbey

    Hualalai

    Vista Vallarta - Nicklaus

    Palmilla

    Reflection Bay

    Country Club of the South

    PGA National - Champion

    La Paloma

    Grand Cypress New Course

    Bears Best

    Breckenridge Golf Club

    Club Campestre San Jose

    Desert Mountain Apache

    Desert Mountain Chiricahua

    Desert Mountain Cochise

    Desert Mountain Geronimo

    Desert Mountain Outlaw

    Desert Mountain Renegade

    English Turn

    Flintrock Falls

    Nicklaus North, Whistler

    Puerto Los Cabos

    Summit Rock

    The Eagles, Forest Course
  • duffer987duffer987 I'm old enough to remember a time when Ignore and Feedback worked. Canadian in CaliforniaMembers Posts: 9,356 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 29, 2016 #184

    QMany wrote:



    Most overrated: Crenshaw. He ruined Pinehurst #2. I also think the old timers (Ross, MacKenzie, Maxwell,Tillinghast, etc) as a group are way overrated. Many people who rate courses give extra credit for the old timers. A good example is Prairie Dunes. It's a really good course and generally rated in the top 50. I can list 20 Nicklaus courses I like better.



    My favorite architect is Nicklaus. I've played 31 of his courses and love almost all of them. The "Nicklaus designs courses for a fade" statement is a myth.


    You have played 20 courses better than PD, let alone 20 Nicklaus courses? I am very interested in this list.




    Sorry for the late reply. Here are the Nicklaus courses I have played. I would rather play the bolded courses than PD. PD is a wonderful course, just somewhat overrated.



    Nicklaus North, Whistler






    What is it about Nicklaus North that you prefer to Pacific?



    Apart from some of the scenery - when you are not playing along the houses/hotel - it's pretty much a paint by numbers Nicklaus resort course IMHO. Maybe the last 3 holes hold some interest, otherwise it's got nothing over any of the $40 public courses I play week in week out.
  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,960 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    duffer987 wrote:


    QMany wrote:



    Most overrated: Crenshaw. He ruined Pinehurst #2. I also think the old timers (Ross, MacKenzie, Maxwell,Tillinghast, etc) as a group are way overrated. Many people who rate courses give extra credit for the old timers. A good example is Prairie Dunes. It's a really good course and generally rated in the top 50. I can list 20 Nicklaus courses I like better.



    My favorite architect is Nicklaus. I've played 31 of his courses and love almost all of them. The "Nicklaus designs courses for a fade" statement is a myth.


    You have played 20 courses better than PD, let alone 20 Nicklaus courses? I am very interested in this list.




    Sorry for the late reply. Here are the Nicklaus courses I have played. I would rather play the bolded courses than PD. PD is a wonderful course, just somewhat overrated.



    Nicklaus North, Whistler






    What is it about Nicklaus North that you prefer to Pacific?



    Apart from some of the scenery - when you are not playing along the houses/hotel - it's pretty much a paint by numbers Nicklaus resort course IMHO. Maybe the last 3 holes hold some interest, otherwise it's got nothing over any of the $40 public courses I play week in week out.




    Good point, but the scenery is spectacular with mountain and lake views. It's been awhile so I may not be remembering it very well but there were a lot of ponds and 18 is a very nice finishing hole. As I have said, I don't know golf course architecture. I just know if a course is fun and the scenery is a part of that evaluation. I give extra credit for courses with mountain and water views.
  • mwmgolfxmwmgolfx Members Posts: 453 ✭✭✭✭
    According to Nicklaus Site, He's personally done over 290 with his company almost 400 with over 50 in progress.



    http://www.nicklaus.com/design/overview.php



    i personally have played over 20 of his designs over the years that i can definitely remember for sure and probably others that i can't remember specifically. As I mentioned before, his designs i quite often don't like plus Norman's also fall into that category. Over the last few years as I've learned more and as I've gotten older and drive the ball as far, i've come to look at many courses differently. My problem is that many designers and he's at the forefront of this have many designs that are very good to exceptional for the very good players but in many cases are almost unplayable for the average 18 handicap. And if the course is totally unplayable for the average golfer ( I don't mean difficult, I mean impossible to play from the white tees), I just can't see how that can be considered a great design.



    Many of the truly great designers have courses that are exceptional not only from the tips but from other tees as well. But if you have a par 3 that has a 210 yard carry to the edge of the green and the average golfer can only carry his drive 200 how can that be reasonable for the average golfer. Or if you have a 180 yard forced carry followed by a 190 yard forced carry for the second shot, how is that reasonable for the average golfer. And Nicklaus (and sometimes Norman as well) quite often has a long par-3 that is over 200 from the white tees. How is that considered great golf design. A course first off should be at least playable from all tees for the average as well as the good golfers. Most of the old time and many of the newer architects consider this and make them playable from all tees. Certainly it can be tougher from the back tees but you don't have to make it impossible from the front tees, it can still be difficult but possible. Couple of examples of this are Bethpage Black and TPC Sawgrass. Both have very tough but fair par-3s that vary in distance but are playable certainly from all tees.



    I played in a tournament a couple of years ago at a Norman course with the wind gusting to 30mph and one par 3 was from the white tees 215 yards into the wind. Only the vary long drivers hit the green that day. Fair, no.



    Simularly, Nicklaus expects everyone (and in one of his interviews I seem to remember his saying this) that everyone play golf should be able with a mid-iron hit a high fade and he designs all of his courses with this in mind. Not every average golfer can hit a high fade or even a high hook with any certainty. Especially the golfer over 10 handicap. So if the green requires this shot, what is the person to do. Have issues. Personally i think there can be a mixture of holes that sometimes call for this shot and sometimes you must hit a high hook or draw to play the hole correctly. or even better have the option to do either with one favored but either is playable.



    Architects such as Coore/Crenshaw, Doak usually, Dye and Fazio do provide more options. And the old-timers (RTJ, McDonald, and others always did).



    That's why I'm prejudiced against Nicklaus generally. I think a lot of his designs are excellent for the better golfers and lousy for the average player. And to me that doesn't denote a "Great" architect.
  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,960 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    BTW, this ranking site has Nicklaus North #62 in Canada. That's not too shabby.



    http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/country.asp?Move=Next&id=175
  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,960 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    mwmgolfx wrote:




    Simularly, Nicklaus expects everyone (and in one of his interviews I seem to remember his saying this) that everyone play golf should be able with a mid-iron hit a high fade and he designs all of his courses with this in mind. Not every average golfer can hit a high fade or even a high hook with any certainty. Especially the golfer over 10 handicap. So if the green requires this shot, what is the person to do. Have issues. Personally i think there can be a mixture of holes that sometimes call for this shot and sometimes you must hit a high hook or draw to play the hole correctly. or even better have the option to do either with one favored but either is playable.



    Architects such as Coore/Crenshaw, Doak usually, Dye and Fazio do provide more options. And the old-timers (RTJ, McDonald, and others always did).



    That's why I'm prejudiced against Nicklaus generally. I think a lot of his designs are excellent for the better golfers and lousy for the average player. And to me that doesn't denote a "Great" architect.




    My experience is quite different. I just got home from playing five of his Desert Mountain courses and I don't recall one time that I needed to hit a high fade. I'm not a long hitter, but I still hit many short irons and wedges into the greens at Desert Mountain. And I think the "Nicklaus only designs for a fade" is a myth.



    Maybe you can give some specific examples.
  • duffer987duffer987 I'm old enough to remember a time when Ignore and Feedback worked. Canadian in CaliforniaMembers Posts: 9,356 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    duffer987 wrote:





    Sorry for the late reply. Here are the Nicklaus courses I have played. I would rather play the bolded courses than PD. PD is a wonderful course, just somewhat overrated.



    Nicklaus North, Whistler






    What is it about Nicklaus North that you prefer to Pacific?



    Apart from some of the scenery - when you are not playing along the houses/hotel - it's pretty much a paint by numbers Nicklaus resort course IMHO. Maybe the last 3 holes hold some interest, otherwise it's got nothing over any of the $40 public courses I play week in week out.




    Good point, but the scenery is spectacular with mountain and lake views. It's been awhile so I may not be remembering it very well but there were a lot of ponds and 18 is a very nice finishing hole. As I have said, I don't know golf course architecture. I just know if a course is fun and the scenery is a part of that evaluation. I give extra credit for courses with mountain and water views.




    Oh sure, we've all got our own preferences and what we emphasize that increases our enjoyment and much like you I do like to say 'favorite' course or 'most enjoyable' than something absolute, like 'better' image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

    But IMHO Nick North is way below Pacific on any criteria used to judge the quality of a course routing and shot values. But I will saying being up in the mountains playing golf sure beats the tar out of most other things we could be doing image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />



    And Canadian golf course rankings are like 'tallest midget' or 'favorite ginger', the pool to choose from isn't necessarily that vast image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
  • duffer987duffer987 I'm old enough to remember a time when Ignore and Feedback worked. Canadian in CaliforniaMembers Posts: 9,356 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    mwmgolfx wrote:


    Simularly, Nicklaus expects everyone (and in one of his interviews I seem to remember his saying this) that everyone play golf should be able with a mid-iron hit a high fade and he designs all of his courses with this in mind. Not every average golfer can hit a high fade or even a high hook with any certainty. Especially the golfer over 10 handicap. So if the green requires this shot, what is the person to do. Have issues. Personally i think there can be a mixture of holes that sometimes call for this shot and sometimes you must hit a high hook or draw to play the hole correctly. or even better have the option to do either with one favored but either is playable.



    Architects such as Coore/Crenshaw, Doak usually, Dye and Fazio do provide more options. And the old-timers (RTJ, McDonald, and others always did).



    That's why I'm prejudiced against Nicklaus generally. I think a lot of his designs are excellent for the better golfers and lousy for the average player. And to me that doesn't denote a "Great" architect.




    My experience is quite different. I just got home from playing five of his Desert Mountain courses and I don't recall one time that I needed to hit a high fade. I'm not a long hitter, but I still hit many short irons and wedges into the greens at Desert Mountain. And I think the "Nicklaus only designs for a fade" is a myth.



    Maybe you can give some specific examples.




    The Bull at Pinehurst Farms is a Nicklaus Designs Fade-FestTM

    You can zoom in on google maps and see. IIRC we counted 9 holes that favoured or absolutely needed a cut. Still a fun course though and worth a play when in Kohler image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />



    https://goo.gl/maps/vNcsEF3VeXy
  • jtarblejtarble Members Posts: 197 ✭✭✭
    Guia wrote:


    To think Pete Dye is over rated you must be smoking something.




    The problem with "rating" Dye is that many don't know/understand where Pete ends and PB or Perry begin. PB and Perry design excellent copies of Pete's work - that don't have quite the same playing properties. At a true Pete course, the fairways always present options and temptations, making the course easier or harder depending on the players' aggressiveness. PB and Perry's courses look like they have that, but they're usually just hard.
  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,960 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    duffer987 wrote:


    And Canadian golf course rankings are like 'tallest midget' or 'favorite ginger', the pool to choose from isn't necessarily that vast image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />




    Good one!!!
  • Chip Out SidewaysChip Out Sideways Members Posts: 183 ✭✭
    This side of the pond we also had some great players who proved lousy architects - particularly Nick Faldo and the late, great Seve. Two of the best golfers ever but their courses are on average awful.



    During the boom of the 80's Peter Alliss and his partner Dave Thomas (both ex Ryder Cup players) designed many courses and the majority are not very good (the most famous being the Brabazon course at The Belfry - a vastly over rated course).



    I have played 2 of the Nicklaus courses in Europe and although both were visually stunning I do did not think either were fair tests of golf at all.



    There are some fantastic modern courses in the UK but I think most would agree that 80%+ of the top 200 courses are probably pre WWII and the mass movement of earth. Even allowing for these courses often being built on prime land that is now no longer available there is something to be said for simple use of natural contours and landscapes that have largely disappeared in design for some reason although I detect a movement back to these basics in recent years.
  • FairwayFredFairwayFred Sponsors Posts: 4,104 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    QMany wrote:



    Most overrated: Crenshaw. He ruined Pinehurst #2. I also think the old timers (Ross, MacKenzie, Maxwell,Tillinghast, etc) as a group are way overrated. Many people who rate courses give extra credit for the old timers. A good example is Prairie Dunes. It's a really good course and generally rated in the top 50. I can list 20 Nicklaus courses I like better.



    My favorite architect is Nicklaus. I've played 31 of his courses and love almost all of them. The "Nicklaus designs courses for a fade" statement is a myth.


    You have played 20 courses better than PD, let alone 20 Nicklaus courses? I am very interested in this list.




    Sorry for the late reply. Here are the Nicklaus courses I have played. I would rather play the bolded courses than PD. PD is a wonderful course, just somewhat overrated.



    Castle Pines Golf Club

    Cabo Del Sol - Ocean

    Eldorado

    Shoal Creek

    The Challenge at Manele

    Castle Pines Country Club

    Kauii Lagoons Kiele

    PGA West - Nicklaus

    Hills of Lakeway

    Glen Abbey

    Hualalai

    Vista Vallarta - Nicklaus

    Palmilla

    Reflection Bay

    Country Club of the South

    PGA National - Champion

    La Paloma

    Grand Cypress New Course

    Bears Best

    Breckenridge Golf Club

    Club Campestre San Jose

    Desert Mountain Apache

    Desert Mountain Chiricahua

    Desert Mountain Cochise

    Desert Mountain Geronimo

    Desert Mountain Outlaw

    Desert Mountain Renegade

    English Turn

    Flintrock Falls

    Nicklaus North, Whistler

    Puerto Los Cabos

    Summit Rock

    The Eagles, Forest Course




    I have played every one of your bolded courses other than 2 and I cannot possibly see how anyone would rate even one of them ahead of Prairie Dunes. But hey, to each their own. I've played over 50 Nicklaus courses and the only 3 I'd ever care to go back to are Dismal River, Muirfield Village and Great Waters.
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  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,960 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭


    I have played every one of your bolded courses other than 2 and I cannot possibly see how anyone would rate even one of them ahead of Prairie Dunes. But hey, to each their own. I've played over 50 Nicklaus courses and the only 3 I'd ever care to go back to are Dismal River, Muirfield Village and Great Waters.




    To each his own.
  • Matt70Matt70 Members Posts: 323 ✭✭✭✭

    Matt70 wrote:


    Greg Norman. Bunkers in the middle of fairways!




    While I'm not exactly a fan of the Norman design team, I find "bunkers in the middle if fairways" to be a fairly weak criticism. Centerline or cross bunkers can add variety and make the course more strategic. If you find you've hit a "perfect shot" and you're now in a bunker in the middle of the fairway, it wasn't actually a perfect shot. The center of the fairway isn't nor shouldn't always be the best place to play from.



    Pull up any top 100 world list and I'll point out to you all the ones that have bunkers in the middle of fairways




    Golf is played down the middle of the fairway. Hooks and slices should be punished. If you can strike a ball with a 9 degree face at 110 mph and it goes down the middle, in no way should you end up in a bunker.
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  • justin10784justin10784 Members Posts: 75 ✭✭
    Some would say that golf is not best played down the middle of the fairway. Actually many of the best courses, the preferred line of attack into a green is from one side of the fairway, often closest to trouble. This risk-reward concept has been a feature of the great courses since the beginning (see the Old Course).
  • teejaywhyteejaywhy Official GolfWRX Curmudgeon Members Posts: 7,206 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Matt70 wrote:




    Golf is played down the middle of the fairway. Hooks and slices should be punished. If you can strike a ball with a 9 degree face at 110 mph and it goes down the middle, in no way should you end up in a bunker.




    Wow. I can only believe that your perspective must have been shaped by the limited experience of playing dull, uninteresting courses exclusively.
  • TheDailyDufferTheDailyDuffer Members Posts: 533
    Matt70 wrote:


    Matt70 wrote:


    Greg Norman. Bunkers in the middle of fairways!




    While I'm not exactly a fan of the Norman design team, I find "bunkers in the middle if fairways" to be a fairly weak criticism. Centerline or cross bunkers can add variety and make the course more strategic. If you find you've hit a "perfect shot" and you're now in a bunker in the middle of the fairway, it wasn't actually a perfect shot. The center of the fairway isn't nor shouldn't always be the best place to play from.



    Pull up any top 100 world list and I'll point out to you all the ones that have bunkers in the middle of fairways




    Golf is played down the middle of the fairway. Hooks and slices should be punished. If you can strike a ball with a 9 degree face at 110 mph and it goes down the middle, in no way should you end up in a bunker.




    We have a winner for dumbest thing said on WRX this month!



    I guess it can be expected by someone who features a driving range as their avatar photo. You sound a lot like the prototypical range rat, who doesn't know the difference between HITTING golf balls and PLAYING golf. By your logic, If playing from the center of the fairway is the optional spot on every hole, then every hole would pretty much be required to be completely straight.



    Again, by your logic if you hit a "perfect shot" right down the center of the fairway you should not be in a bunker, but guess what!



    If you hit a "perfect shot" and it ends up in the bunker you were either

    A. Aiming for the bunker. Which makes you dumb.

    or

    B. Not aiming for the bunker, but hit it in there anyway. Which means that it was not the shot you wanted to hit, and therefor a miss.



    Dubai has some really really crappy golf, so i get that you haven't been exposed to great golf courses, but you really need to figure out that difference between PLAYING GOLF and HITTING SHOTS. Golf is a game of strategy and variety, where you are expected to think your way around problems, not just execute driving range swings. If you like hitting the ball off of flat lies over and over again stick to the driving range.



    The UAE has crappy golf, but if you check out the undisputed best golf course in that part of the world (Yas Links) you will find plenty of golf holes with bunkers down the middle of the fairway. These bunkers are called hazards and the game of golf requires you to PLAY around them, not complain that they are there.
  • EntourageLifeEntourageLife EntourageLife Members Posts: 1,016 ClubWRX
    edited Aug 21, 2016 #200

    Guia wrote:


    Roadking2003: You have played 31 of the Nicklaus' courses? Wow, I have been playing 50 years and doubt that I have played 5 of Nicklaus' courses. I think you greatly exaggerate.



    As a side note I was curious as to how many courses Nicklaus (his company) has designed. I think he is one of the most busy designers ever, there has to be easily over 300 world wide. Wow.




    No exaggeration at all. I travel a lot and go on a lot of golf trips. I was also in sales for 20 years and took customers to a lot of very nice courses. Here is the list of Nicklaus courses I have played. The first one (Castle Pines Golf Club) was in 1998. I added two more this year (Desert Mountain Outlaw and Puerto Los Cabos).



    Castle Pines Golf Club

    Cabo Del Sol - Ocean

    Eldorado

    Shoal Creek

    The Challenge at Manele

    Castle Pines Country Club

    Kauii Lagoons Kiele

    PGA West - Nicklaus

    Hills of Lakeway

    Glen Abbey

    Hualalai

    Vista Vallarta - Nicklaus

    Palmilla

    Reflection Bay

    Country Club of the South

    PGA National - Champion

    La Paloma

    Grand Cypress New Course

    Bears Best

    Breckenridge Golf Club

    Club Campestre San Jose

    Desert Mountain Apache

    Desert Mountain Chiricahua

    Desert Mountain Cochise

    Desert Mountain Geronimo

    Desert Mountain Outlaw

    Desert Mountain Renegade

    English Turn

    Flintrock Falls

    Nicklaus North, Whistler

    Puerto Los Cabos

    Summit Rock

    The Eagles, Forest Course




    The Challenge at Manele. I always forget about that course. I remember it being fantastic. Are my memories correct? Great course right?



    (One or two holes on the back nine has a vast wild cat population. They just roam around under a tree near green/tee box? Was this a dream or reality?)
  • EKELLYEKELLY Members Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    adamjstl wrote:


    Tom Fazio. Now I have only played a few Fazio tracks, but the two biggest names, World Woods (Pine Barrens) and Branson Creek, were not everything I expected. At the time, World Woods was the #26 public course in the country. We finished the round, all enjoyed the course, and all agreed that was an outrageous ranking. Branson Creek was consistently in the top 100 public up until 2-3 years ago. I played it in 2011 and was again underwhelmed.



    Don't get me wrong, while both very nice courses, World Woods especially, I have to think that the Fazio stamp was more responsible for those ratings than the courses themselves.
    World Woods is NOTHING like it was when it opened as the #1 new course in the country........Not even close. I was there that day, they could have hosted a Tour event....I play there a few times a year.........on that note, I played #2 last week, as far as I'm concerned Crenshaw ruined it!!!......
  • EKELLYEKELLY Members Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    EKELLY wrote:
    Does anyone here actually realize how little the designer "really" does? Yes, he plots out the holes, of course. Beyond that it's all drainage and elevations. Hey, let's put a bunker here, and take out those trees. Getting water to run from high to low..........Cutting dirt here, pasting it there.........Grassy mounds on a golf course? Don't let ANYONE tell you different than THIS: They are there because the builder didn't want to pay to haul off the extra dirt!!.....LOL.....Here's the thing , Pebble and Augusta are Icon's because they've been on TV for 50 years. Pebble has 5 good holes and a bunch of fillers. Augusta isn't a GREAT course, I've been there. Azalea's don't make a golf course, just like Monterey doesn't make Pebble...........When I played Pine Valley the first time, after growing up on the Black Course, my first thought was, "this is it?".......No big deal..........Only the #1 course in the country , forever......Opinions are like #%@#$;%^&**, we all have them......




    What courses DO you like?
    I like any course with 18 flag sticks in the ground.......A course is a course. you pay for conditions......I'm a member at the #5 course in Florida, and I can think of a dozen that are better, IMO...........
  • tmfool tmfool Members Posts: 1,829 ✭✭
    Pg 1 somebody said Donald Ross over-rated



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  • EntourageLifeEntourageLife EntourageLife Members Posts: 1,016 ClubWRX
    EKELLY wrote:

    adamjstl wrote:


    Tom Fazio. Now I have only played a few Fazio tracks, but the two biggest names, World Woods (Pine Barrens) and Branson Creek, were not everything I expected. At the time, World Woods was the #26 public course in the country. We finished the round, all enjoyed the course, and all agreed that was an outrageous ranking. Branson Creek was consistently in the top 100 public up until 2-3 years ago. I played it in 2011 and was again underwhelmed.



    Don't get me wrong, while both very nice courses, World Woods especially, I have to think that the Fazio stamp was more responsible for those ratings than the courses themselves.
    World Woods is NOTHING like it was when it opened as the #1 new course in the country........Not even close. I was there that day, they could have hosted a Tour event....I play there a few times a year.........on that note, I played #2 last week, as far as I'm concerned Crenshaw ruined it!!!......




    World Woods will always be one of my favorites. Especially the Pine Barrens course. It's sad what has happened to facility. It's not in bad shape as of a few weeks ago but was once easily considered a top 25 course in country. The Pine Barrens layout is amazing. (They even hosted a Shell's Wonderful World of Golf match between Mickelson and Toms). EKELLY correct me if I'm wrong but the course really suffered during a severe drought late 1990's and then during recession after 9/11 really hurt their ability to demand $150 greens fees. The entire facility was sold sometime after and they never reached the level of before. Then the latest depression of last 5-6 years really killed any upswing they had achieved. Unfortunately plans for a premier hotel (like Streamsong) were totally halted and Brooksville area never developed into a golf destination. If anyone is near Tampa they should definitely try and play.
  • jerebear21jerebear21 Don't Go Left ClubWRX Posts: 3,314 ClubWRX
    pine barrens just like most fazio courses are spiced up and artificial. rolling oaks is actually the better course at world woods as far as layout goes. no gimmicks. i've played a lot of fazio courses and him and pete dye for the quantity there is, I would say those two hit the spot as far as over-rated. i never played a true donald ross, cb/raynor/mackenzie/tilly/coore/crenshaw course I didn't like. i've played a lot of fazio/dye courses and on the top of my head could probably think of a handful or so that truly were gems.
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  • EntourageLifeEntourageLife EntourageLife Members Posts: 1,016 ClubWRX
    **** sad to hear you don't like Fazio and Dye courses. I happen to really think they're two of the very best designers. I do agree with you about Crenshaw/Coore. Great



    Also, Tom Doak, his Forest Dunes design in Northern Michigan is one of my favorites.
  • fiveunderfiveunder Members Posts: 169
  • WarEagleGolfWarEagleGolf Members Posts: 321 ✭✭✭✭
    Pete Dye....Over rated? No...Not at all. Just purposefully difficult and removes anyone who can't play smart/target golf. Most people that hate dye courses haven't figured them out. Visual intimidation. Once you hit the shot you get up there and realize there wasn't really anything to worry about, club selection is key and control of fade/draw imperative. Never played a dye I didn't like. Played multiple fazio's that I found mediocre.
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  • jerebear21jerebear21 Don't Go Left ClubWRX Posts: 3,314 ClubWRX
    I don't even think Pete dyes course is difficult....
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  • teejaywhyteejaywhy Official GolfWRX Curmudgeon Members Posts: 7,206 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    jerebear21 wrote:


    I don't even think Pete dyes course is difficult....




    image/drinks.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':drinks:' /> image/drinks.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':drinks:' />
  • hdr_richdr_ric Members Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Doak and coore/Crenshaw are the best of the modern guys.



    I tend to dislike courses that use 1000 bulldozers to build some videogame-like monstrosity.



    Also think that the piece of land it probably more important than the designer.

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