Most overrated big name architect is ???

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  • LICCLICC Members Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've played two Dye courses and they were both excellent. Sawgrass is a great course and Canyons in San Antonio. Lots of outstanding strategic detail and variety. I've also enjoyed every Nicklaus course I've played (5) with Punta Espada being an incredible experience. The two Coore/Crenshaw courses I've played are outstanding. I've also played Doak and Hanse courses and I've liked them although they weren't as amazing as people hold them up to be. The Fazio courses I've played have been pretty good- pretty, nothing disappointing, but not anything that excited me very much.
    One designer that usually disappoints is Rees Jones. His work at Bethpage was excellent but I think it was because he was rebuilding what had already been there and made a point to not significantly change how the course plays or alter its feel. I've played several others that he renovated/redesigned and they all look similar (boring and lots of fake-looking mounding) and play similarly (pinch landing areas, elevate greens around deep bunkers, put ponds up to green sites). It's no wonder lots of high-end clubs that naively hired him years ago to re-do their courses have been hiring Hanse and Doak and others to fix them the right way in recent years.

  • krtgolfingkrtgolfing Members Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Another vote for Nicklaus.

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  • mlecs03mlecs03 Members Posts: 68 ✭✭
    edited Aug 13, 2019 11:18pm #214

    Donald Ross, only because he always kicks my **** from the grave lol

    Realistically, I'm not a fan of Nicklaus designed courses. And I don't love what Fazio did to Oak Hill

  • Schley Schley Love ya don't tell ya enough! Kingdom of Saudi ArabiaMembers Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Rees Jones IMO. The open doctor I think has finally left the office thank god.

  • LICCLICC Members Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RichieHunt said:
    Roadking2003 wrote:

    Richie; My evaluation of a golf course has nothing to do with age and who designed it. I'm not that versed in course design, so I just ask a few questions;

    1. was it fun to play?

    2. was it challenging?

    3. was it beautiful (ocean, trees, etc)?

    4. what was the condition?

      5 was there a variety of holes?

    5. did you need to think a little or just get up and whack the ball?

      A good comparison is East Lake vs. Cabo del Sol. East Lake is boring and IMHO only highly rated due to the Bobby Jones connection and it was designed by Donald Ross. I played it and it doesn't make my top 100. On the other hand, Cabo del Sol is spectacular. It shines in all of the six areas listed above.

      Fun to play is the biggest factor for me. For instance, I really like playing a lot of Arnold Palmer designs because they are fun to play. Like Eagle Watch in Woodstock, GA. Probably wouldn't make the top-50 courses on any list in Georgia, but I would rather play that than play Echelon, East Lake, and Chateau Elan. I would rather play Victoria Hills in DeLand than play most higher priced courses and private clubs in the Orlando area.

      The thing with Ross is he designed a gazillion different courses. He's not going to roll 6's every time. But, his percentage of excellent clubs is way up there and they flat-out beat most of the designers we've seen in the past 30-years. Sure, there are people out there that rate courses based on their history, but I find for the most part the Ross', Tillinghast's and McKenzie's were just far superior overall.

    I mentioned that Ross courses are overrated in another discussion and got lots of strong opinions. Can you say that his best courses are better than Nicklaus'? Pinehurst, Plainfield, Scioto, Aronimink, Seminole, East Lake, Inverness, Oak Hill, Wannamoisett, Grove Park, Sagamore, French Lick, OR, Muirfield Village, Punta Espada, Castle Pines, Cabo del Sol, Shoal Creek, Mayacama, Pronghorn, May River, Dismal River, Castle Pines, Manele, Punta Mita, Ferry Point.

  • jerebear21jerebear21 Don't Go Left ClubWRX Posts: 3,314 ClubWRX

    yes

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  • smashdnsmashdn Let's cut them trees down. Members Posts: 1,347 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes, I would. Ross has a fair amount of courses that are nle or so private most people don't know about them. Are those courses his best work? Probably not, but Ross cranked out a ton of courses in his lifetime that were well above average in his day and even today (if you don't discount them on the basis of lack of distance for today's game).

  • LICCLICC Members Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jerebear21 said:
    yes

    If you were to pick 10 courses of the ones I listed above to play, how many would be Ross and how many Nicklaus? I would probably pick 6-4 or 7-3 the Nicklaus courses.

  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,960 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @LICC said:

    @RichieHunt said:
    Roadking2003 wrote:

    Richie; My evaluation of a golf course has nothing to do with age and who designed it. I'm not that versed in course design, so I just ask a few questions;

    1. was it fun to play?

    2. was it challenging?

    3. was it beautiful (ocean, trees, etc)?

    4. what was the condition?

      5 was there a variety of holes?

    5. did you need to think a little or just get up and whack the ball?

      A good comparison is East Lake vs. Cabo del Sol. East Lake is boring and IMHO only highly rated due to the Bobby Jones connection and it was designed by Donald Ross. I played it and it doesn't make my top 100. On the other hand, Cabo del Sol is spectacular. It shines in all of the six areas listed above.

      Fun to play is the biggest factor for me. For instance, I really like playing a lot of Arnold Palmer designs because they are fun to play. Like Eagle Watch in Woodstock, GA. Probably wouldn't make the top-50 courses on any list in Georgia, but I would rather play that than play Echelon, East Lake, and Chateau Elan. I would rather play Victoria Hills in DeLand than play most higher priced courses and private clubs in the Orlando area.

      The thing with Ross is he designed a gazillion different courses. He's not going to roll 6's every time. But, his percentage of excellent clubs is way up there and they flat-out beat most of the designers we've seen in the past 30-years. Sure, there are people out there that rate courses based on their history, but I find for the most part the Ross', Tillinghast's and McKenzie's were just far superior overall.

    I mentioned that Ross courses are overrated in another discussion and got lots of strong opinions. Can you say that his best courses are better than Nicklaus'?

    Nicklaus blows Ross away by a wide margin.

  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,960 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @LICC said:

    @jerebear21 said:
    yes

    If you were to pick 10 courses of the ones I listed above to play, how many would be Ross and how many Nicklaus? I would probably pick 6-4 or 7-3 the Nicklaus courses.

    I would pick 8 - 2 or more for Nicklaus.

  • FairwayFredFairwayFred Sponsors Posts: 4,104 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    How about Gil Hanse? People fawn over the guy like he is MacKenzie reincarnated but what has he done as far as original courses that is so great? He has done some good stuff yes (I've never played Castle Stuart) and has done some great restoration work but I feel like his original courses are very lacking when compared to his contemporaries and the accolades he gets.

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  • raynorfan1raynorfan1 Members Posts: 3,656 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @FairwayFred said:
    How about Gil Hanse? People fawn over the guy like he is MacKenzie reincarnated but what has he done as far as original courses that is so great? He has done some good stuff yes (I've never played Castle Stuart) and has done some great restoration work but I feel like his original courses are very lacking when compared to his contemporaries and the accolades he gets.

    IDK

    Boston Golf Club is considered a peer to Old Sandwich (Coore/Crenshaw);
    Rustic Canyon is spoken very highly of...as a public option...;
    Ohoopee Match Club has grown men drooling.

  • LlortamaiseyLlortamaisey Members Posts: 6,028 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @raynorfan1 said:

    @FairwayFred said:
    How about Gil Hanse? People fawn over the guy like he is MacKenzie reincarnated but what has he done as far as original courses that is so great? He has done some good stuff yes (I've never played Castle Stuart) and has done some great restoration work but I feel like his original courses are very lacking when compared to his contemporaries and the accolades he gets.

    IDK

    Boston Golf Club is considered a peer to Old Sandwich (Coore/Crenshaw);
    Rustic Canyon is spoken very highly of...as a public option...;
    Ohoopee Match Club has grown men drooling.

    I’ve always thought Ohoopee is too one dimensional. What if you want play stroke play? I enjoyed Congaree more and I am not a Fazio fan at all.

  • raynorfan1raynorfan1 Members Posts: 3,656 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Llortamaisey said:

    @raynorfan1 said:

    @FairwayFred said:
    How about Gil Hanse? People fawn over the guy like he is MacKenzie reincarnated but what has he done as far as original courses that is so great? He has done some good stuff yes (I've never played Castle Stuart) and has done some great restoration work but I feel like his original courses are very lacking when compared to his contemporaries and the accolades he gets.

    IDK

    Boston Golf Club is considered a peer to Old Sandwich (Coore/Crenshaw);
    Rustic Canyon is spoken very highly of...as a public option...;
    Ohoopee Match Club has grown men drooling.

    I’ve always thought Ohoopee is too one dimensional. What if you want play stroke play? I enjoyed Congaree more and I am not a Fazio fan at all.

    But that was clearly the directive from the owner - hard to criticize and architect for building exactly what the client wanted.

  • RichieHuntRichieHunt Members Posts: 3,722 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @LICC said:

    @RichieHunt said:
    Roadking2003 wrote:

    Richie; My evaluation of a golf course has nothing to do with age and who designed it. I'm not that versed in course design, so I just ask a few questions;

    1. was it fun to play?

    2. was it challenging?

    3. was it beautiful (ocean, trees, etc)?

    4. what was the condition?

      5 was there a variety of holes?

    5. did you need to think a little or just get up and whack the ball?

      A good comparison is East Lake vs. Cabo del Sol. East Lake is boring and IMHO only highly rated due to the Bobby Jones connection and it was designed by Donald Ross. I played it and it doesn't make my top 100. On the other hand, Cabo del Sol is spectacular. It shines in all of the six areas listed above.

      Fun to play is the biggest factor for me. For instance, I really like playing a lot of Arnold Palmer designs because they are fun to play. Like Eagle Watch in Woodstock, GA. Probably wouldn't make the top-50 courses on any list in Georgia, but I would rather play that than play Echelon, East Lake, and Chateau Elan. I would rather play Victoria Hills in DeLand than play most higher priced courses and private clubs in the Orlando area.

      The thing with Ross is he designed a gazillion different courses. He's not going to roll 6's every time. But, his percentage of excellent clubs is way up there and they flat-out beat most of the designers we've seen in the past 30-years. Sure, there are people out there that rate courses based on their history, but I find for the most part the Ross', Tillinghast's and McKenzie's were just far superior overall.

    I mentioned that Ross courses are overrated in another discussion and got lots of strong opinions. Can you say that his best courses are better than Nicklaus'? Pinehurst, Plainfield, Scioto, Aronimink, Seminole, East Lake, Inverness, Oak Hill, Wannamoisett, Grove Park, Sagamore, French Lick, OR, Muirfield Village, Punta Espada, Castle Pines, Cabo del Sol, Shoal Creek, Mayacama, Pronghorn, May River, Dismal River, Castle Pines, Manele, Punta Mita, Ferry Point.

    I think Ross' best courses and worst courses are better than Nicklaus' best and worse courses. Nicklaus' designs are much more one dimensional than Ross' as Nicklaus' best courses are approach shot courses whereas Ross' best courses could be driving courses (Oak Hill), approach shot and short game courses (Pinehurst #2).

    As far as the worst Nicklaus courses, some of them are just dreadful and incredibly un-fun to play (Corkscrew). Ross' worst courses (Delray Beach) were not terrible designs or torture chambers, just less interesting to Ross' standards and most of the time the course didn't have the resources to stay in good condition or was outdated due the distance gains from modern equipment.

    RH

  • LICCLICC Members Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RichieHunt said:

    @LICC said:

    @RichieHunt said:
    Roadking2003 wrote:

    Richie; My evaluation of a golf course has nothing to do with age and who designed it. I'm not that versed in course design, so I just ask a few questions;

    1. was it fun to play?

    2. was it challenging?

    3. was it beautiful (ocean, trees, etc)?

    4. what was the condition?

      5 was there a variety of holes?

    5. did you need to think a little or just get up and whack the ball?

      A good comparison is East Lake vs. Cabo del Sol. East Lake is boring and IMHO only highly rated due to the Bobby Jones connection and it was designed by Donald Ross. I played it and it doesn't make my top 100. On the other hand, Cabo del Sol is spectacular. It shines in all of the six areas listed above.

      Fun to play is the biggest factor for me. For instance, I really like playing a lot of Arnold Palmer designs because they are fun to play. Like Eagle Watch in Woodstock, GA. Probably wouldn't make the top-50 courses on any list in Georgia, but I would rather play that than play Echelon, East Lake, and Chateau Elan. I would rather play Victoria Hills in DeLand than play most higher priced courses and private clubs in the Orlando area.

      The thing with Ross is he designed a gazillion different courses. He's not going to roll 6's every time. But, his percentage of excellent clubs is way up there and they flat-out beat most of the designers we've seen in the past 30-years. Sure, there are people out there that rate courses based on their history, but I find for the most part the Ross', Tillinghast's and McKenzie's were just far superior overall.

    I mentioned that Ross courses are overrated in another discussion and got lots of strong opinions. Can you say that his best courses are better than Nicklaus'? Pinehurst, Plainfield, Scioto, Aronimink, Seminole, East Lake, Inverness, Oak Hill, Wannamoisett, Grove Park, Sagamore, French Lick, OR, Muirfield Village, Punta Espada, Castle Pines, Cabo del Sol, Shoal Creek, Mayacama, Pronghorn, May River, Dismal River, Castle Pines, Manele, Punta Mita, Ferry Point.

    I think Ross' best courses and worst courses are better than Nicklaus' best and worse courses. Nicklaus' designs are much more one dimensional than Ross' as Nicklaus' best courses are approach shot courses whereas Ross' best courses could be driving courses (Oak Hill), approach shot and short game courses (Pinehurst #2).

    As far as the worst Nicklaus courses, some of them are just dreadful and incredibly un-fun to play (Corkscrew). Ross' worst courses (Delray Beach) were not terrible designs or torture chambers, just less interesting to Ross' standards and most of the time the course didn't have the resources to stay in good condition or was outdated due the distance gains from modern equipment.

    RH

    What do you mean by driving, approach, and short game courses? The Nicklaus courses I’ve played have all had interesting choices to make in all three categories.

  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,960 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 16, 2019 8:25pm #228

    @RichieHunt said:
    As far as the worst Nicklaus courses, some of them are just dreadful and incredibly un-fun to play (Corkscrew).

    I've never played a Nicklaus course that was "just dreadful and incredibly un-fun to play", but I"ve only played 40 of his courses.
    Do you have a list of Nicklaus courses that fit that description?

  • RichieHuntRichieHunt Members Posts: 3,722 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @LICC said:

    @RichieHunt said:

    @LICC said:

    @RichieHunt said:
    Roadking2003 wrote:

    Richie; My evaluation of a golf course has nothing to do with age and who designed it. I'm not that versed in course design, so I just ask a few questions;

    1. was it fun to play?

    2. was it challenging?

    3. was it beautiful (ocean, trees, etc)?

    4. what was the condition?

      5 was there a variety of holes?

    5. did you need to think a little or just get up and whack the ball?

      A good comparison is East Lake vs. Cabo del Sol. East Lake is boring and IMHO only highly rated due to the Bobby Jones connection and it was designed by Donald Ross. I played it and it doesn't make my top 100. On the other hand, Cabo del Sol is spectacular. It shines in all of the six areas listed above.

      Fun to play is the biggest factor for me. For instance, I really like playing a lot of Arnold Palmer designs because they are fun to play. Like Eagle Watch in Woodstock, GA. Probably wouldn't make the top-50 courses on any list in Georgia, but I would rather play that than play Echelon, East Lake, and Chateau Elan. I would rather play Victoria Hills in DeLand than play most higher priced courses and private clubs in the Orlando area.

      The thing with Ross is he designed a gazillion different courses. He's not going to roll 6's every time. But, his percentage of excellent clubs is way up there and they flat-out beat most of the designers we've seen in the past 30-years. Sure, there are people out there that rate courses based on their history, but I find for the most part the Ross', Tillinghast's and McKenzie's were just far superior overall.

    I mentioned that Ross courses are overrated in another discussion and got lots of strong opinions. Can you say that his best courses are better than Nicklaus'? Pinehurst, Plainfield, Scioto, Aronimink, Seminole, East Lake, Inverness, Oak Hill, Wannamoisett, Grove Park, Sagamore, French Lick, OR, Muirfield Village, Punta Espada, Castle Pines, Cabo del Sol, Shoal Creek, Mayacama, Pronghorn, May River, Dismal River, Castle Pines, Manele, Punta Mita, Ferry Point.

    I think Ross' best courses and worst courses are better than Nicklaus' best and worse courses. Nicklaus' designs are much more one dimensional than Ross' as Nicklaus' best courses are approach shot courses whereas Ross' best courses could be driving courses (Oak Hill), approach shot and short game courses (Pinehurst #2).

    As far as the worst Nicklaus courses, some of them are just dreadful and incredibly un-fun to play (Corkscrew). Ross' worst courses (Delray Beach) were not terrible designs or torture chambers, just less interesting to Ross' standards and most of the time the course didn't have the resources to stay in good condition or was outdated due the distance gains from modern equipment.

    RH

    What do you mean by driving, approach, and short game courses? The Nicklaus courses I’ve played have all had interesting choices to make in all three categories.

    Where the difficulty lies and what makes the difference between a good round an average round and poor round.

    Murifield Village is an easy driving course. The approaches are incredibly difficult. Same with Pawley's Plantation, Corkscrew, Bear Lakes, Sherwood, etc.

    Muirfield Village, Sherwood, etc. are awesome courses, but as far as diversity goes he's an approach shot designer.

    RH

  • RichieHuntRichieHunt Members Posts: 3,722 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @RichieHunt said:
    As far as the worst Nicklaus courses, some of them are just dreadful and incredibly un-fun to play (Corkscrew).

    I've never played a Nicklaus course that was "just dreadful and incredibly un-fun to play", but I"ve only played 40 of his courses.
    Do you have a list of Nicklaus courses that fit that description?

    Old Corkscrew
    Pawleys Plantation
    PGA National
    Angeles National
    Bear Creek

    RH

  • LICCLICC Members Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RichieHunt said:

    @LICC said:

    @RichieHunt said:

    @LICC said:

    @RichieHunt said:
    Roadking2003 wrote:

    Richie; My evaluation of a golf course has nothing to do with age and who designed it. I'm not that versed in course design, so I just ask a few questions;

    1. was it fun to play?

    2. was it challenging?

    3. was it beautiful (ocean, trees, etc)?

    4. what was the condition?

      5 was there a variety of holes?

    5. did you need to think a little or just get up and whack the ball?

      A good comparison is East Lake vs. Cabo del Sol. East Lake is boring and IMHO only highly rated due to the Bobby Jones connection and it was designed by Donald Ross. I played it and it doesn't make my top 100. On the other hand, Cabo del Sol is spectacular. It shines in all of the six areas listed above.

      Fun to play is the biggest factor for me. For instance, I really like playing a lot of Arnold Palmer designs because they are fun to play. Like Eagle Watch in Woodstock, GA. Probably wouldn't make the top-50 courses on any list in Georgia, but I would rather play that than play Echelon, East Lake, and Chateau Elan. I would rather play Victoria Hills in DeLand than play most higher priced courses and private clubs in the Orlando area.

      The thing with Ross is he designed a gazillion different courses. He's not going to roll 6's every time. But, his percentage of excellent clubs is way up there and they flat-out beat most of the designers we've seen in the past 30-years. Sure, there are people out there that rate courses based on their history, but I find for the most part the Ross', Tillinghast's and McKenzie's were just far superior overall.

    I mentioned that Ross courses are overrated in another discussion and got lots of strong opinions. Can you say that his best courses are better than Nicklaus'? Pinehurst, Plainfield, Scioto, Aronimink, Seminole, East Lake, Inverness, Oak Hill, Wannamoisett, Grove Park, Sagamore, French Lick, OR, Muirfield Village, Punta Espada, Castle Pines, Cabo del Sol, Shoal Creek, Mayacama, Pronghorn, May River, Dismal River, Castle Pines, Manele, Punta Mita, Ferry Point.

    I think Ross' best courses and worst courses are better than Nicklaus' best and worse courses. Nicklaus' designs are much more one dimensional than Ross' as Nicklaus' best courses are approach shot courses whereas Ross' best courses could be driving courses (Oak Hill), approach shot and short game courses (Pinehurst #2).

    As far as the worst Nicklaus courses, some of them are just dreadful and incredibly un-fun to play (Corkscrew). Ross' worst courses (Delray Beach) were not terrible designs or torture chambers, just less interesting to Ross' standards and most of the time the course didn't have the resources to stay in good condition or was outdated due the distance gains from modern equipment.

    RH

    What do you mean by driving, approach, and short game courses? The Nicklaus courses I’ve played have all had interesting choices to make in all three categories.

    Where the difficulty lies and what makes the difference between a good round an average round and poor round.

    Murifield Village is an easy driving course. The approaches are incredibly difficult. Same with Pawley's Plantation, Corkscrew, Bear Lakes, Sherwood, etc.

    Muirfield Village, Sherwood, etc. are awesome courses, but as far as diversity goes he's an approach shot designer.

    RH

    I wouldn’t call a course a “driving” course just because it has narrow fairways, which it seems like you are saying. A course could have wide fairways but preferred sides to set up easier approaches. I see that on Nicklaus courses, often with carry hazards to provide risk/reward strategy.

  • jerebear21jerebear21 Don't Go Left ClubWRX Posts: 3,314 ClubWRX

    9-1

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  • LICCLICC Members Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jerebear21 said:
    9-1

    Which is the 1?

  • jerebear21jerebear21 Don't Go Left ClubWRX Posts: 3,314 ClubWRX

    MV; it's one of the greatest parkland course I've ever played although I can do without no.16. That hole looks like a par3 built here in florida by fazio and doesn't fit into the land.

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  • Schley Schley Love ya don't tell ya enough! Kingdom of Saudi ArabiaMembers Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @LICC said:

    @RichieHunt said:
    Roadking2003 wrote:

    Richie; My evaluation of a golf course has nothing to do with age and who designed it. I'm not that versed in course design, so I just ask a few questions;

    1. was it fun to play?

    2. was it challenging?

    3. was it beautiful (ocean, trees, etc)?

    4. what was the condition?

      5 was there a variety of holes?

    5. did you need to think a little or just get up and whack the ball?

      A good comparison is East Lake vs. Cabo del Sol. East Lake is boring and IMHO only highly rated due to the Bobby Jones connection and it was designed by Donald Ross. I played it and it doesn't make my top 100. On the other hand, Cabo del Sol is spectacular. It shines in all of the six areas listed above.

      Fun to play is the biggest factor for me. For instance, I really like playing a lot of Arnold Palmer designs because they are fun to play. Like Eagle Watch in Woodstock, GA. Probably wouldn't make the top-50 courses on any list in Georgia, but I would rather play that than play Echelon, East Lake, and Chateau Elan. I would rather play Victoria Hills in DeLand than play most higher priced courses and private clubs in the Orlando area.

      The thing with Ross is he designed a gazillion different courses. He's not going to roll 6's every time. But, his percentage of excellent clubs is way up there and they flat-out beat most of the designers we've seen in the past 30-years. Sure, there are people out there that rate courses based on their history, but I find for the most part the Ross', Tillinghast's and McKenzie's were just far superior overall.

    I mentioned that Ross courses are overrated in another discussion and got lots of strong opinions. Can you say that his best courses are better than Nicklaus'?

    Nicklaus blows Ross away by a wide margin.

    Respectively disagree. I'm not a fan of Nicklaus's raised greens with heavy bunkering around many greens. My favorite Nicklaus is Mayacama personally, but I haven't played MV. Ross's courses have better greens IMO. One not mentioned which is one of my top 5 Ross courses is Essex County Club with great greens. Plainfield is outstanding which is my 2nd best Ross. If you take out all the "Nicklaus Designs", which isn't all Jack his work is better. I believe Jack Nicklaus Signature courses are his.

  • LICCLICC Members Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jerebear21 said:
    MV; it's one of the greatest parkland course I've ever played although I can do without no.16. That hole looks like a par3 built here in florida by fazio and doesn't fit into the land.

    If you played all those courses and didn’t know who designed them, I find it tough to believe you would pick 9-1 the Ross courses

  • jerebear21jerebear21 Don't Go Left ClubWRX Posts: 3,314 ClubWRX

    it’s equally tough to take anyone seriously when they call Ross over rated but have only played 2 of his courses.

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  • LICCLICC Members Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jerebear21 said:
    it’s equally tough to take anyone seriously when they call Ross over rated but have only played 2 of his courses.

    Irrelevant. You would prefer to play East Lake or Wannamoisett instead of Punta Espada or Mayacama?

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  • Schley Schley Love ya don't tell ya enough! Kingdom of Saudi ArabiaMembers Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @LICC said:

    I mentioned that Ross courses are overrated in another discussion and got lots of strong opinions. Can you say that his best courses are better than Nicklaus'? Pinehurst, Plainfield, Scioto, Aronimink, Seminole, East Lake, Inverness, Oak Hill, Wannamoisett, Grove Park, Sagamore, French Lick, OR, Muirfield Village, Punta Espada, Castle Pines, Cabo del Sol, Shoal Creek, Mayacama, Pronghorn, May River, Dismal River, Castle Pines, Manele, Punta Mita, Ferry Point.

    You are forgetting Oakland Hills for Ross btw. As this thread is about overrated GCA's, why is your comparison even valid for this thread's purpose? Is comparing the best/worst courses for each a way to judge who is overrated? Both Nicklaus and Ross have designed about 400 courses give or take. That is a huge amount, both putting them into the top 5 all time in terms of number of courses I would think.
    Since you mentioned it, do you really think Ferry Point stands up to any of Ross's top 20 even?

    Ross was a genius designer and amazed he was able to get around as he did in an age before commercial air travel was widely utilized.

  • LICCLICC Members Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Schley said:

    @LICC said:

    I mentioned that Ross courses are overrated in another discussion and got lots of strong opinions. Can you say that his best courses are better than Nicklaus'? Pinehurst, Plainfield, Scioto, Aronimink, Seminole, East Lake, Inverness, Oak Hill, Wannamoisett, Grove Park, Sagamore, French Lick, OR, Muirfield Village, Punta Espada, Castle Pines, Cabo del Sol, Shoal Creek, Mayacama, Pronghorn, May River, Dismal River, Castle Pines, Manele, Punta Mita, Ferry Point.

    You are forgetting Oakland Hills for Ross btw. As this thread is about overrated GCA's, why is your comparison even valid for this thread's purpose? Is comparing the best/worst courses for each a way to judge who is overrated? Both Nicklaus and Ross have designed about 400 courses give or take. That is a huge amount, both putting them into the top 5 all time in terms of number of courses I would think.
    Since you mentioned it, do you really think Ferry Point stands up to any of Ross's top 20 even?

    Ross was a genius designer and amazed he was able to get around as he did in an age before commercial air travel was widely utilized.

    Oakland Hills has been changed substantially. I didn’t include it because of that. It has lots of elements from Trent Jones and Rees so hard to determine how much to call it Ross. I didn’t include Sebonack or Harbour Town for Nicklaus for similar reasons.

    Which courses would you add to round out Ross’ top 20? Name some and I can tell you if I would play Ferry Point instead.

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