Wishon: Shaft frequency can be misleading

zakkozuchowskizakkozuchowski GolfWRX EditorMembers Posts: 1,162 ✭✭
edited Mar 2, 2013 in WRX Club Techs #1
By Tom Wishon, GolfWRX Featured Writer



Numerous times I have read posts on GolfWRX from golfers who persist in selecting a shaft on the basis of a butt frequency measurement. In viewing new shafts that come on the market, many golfers believe as long as the new shaft has the same butt frequency as their current shaft, the shaft’s stiffness design will match their swing.



Unfortunately, there is a lot more to the stiffness design, stiffness performance and the stiffness feel of a shaft than a single butt frequency measurement. In other words, it is quite rare for two shafts with the same butt frequency to be the same stiffness design over the full length of the shaft. And equally, it is quite common for two shafts to have the same exact butt frequency measurement but be completely different in their stiffness design over the rest of the shaft.



Here’s a couple of examples to illustrate this point. First, let’s take a look at the full-length stiffness design of two shafts for drivers and woods, both made by the same company.



WRX-article-March-1-WOODS.jpg



Note: All zone frequency measurements performed for our TWGT Shaft Bend Profile software are taken using a 454-gram tip weight so that we can obtain measurements all the way to the tip section of the shaft. With only a 205-gram tip weight, it would not be possible to obtain the measurements for the lower center to tip section of the shaft. Using a 454-gram tip weight lowers the actual frequency measurement compared to what the measurement would be using a 205-gram tip weight.



The two above shafts with their same 180-cpm butt frequency measurement, if done with a 205-gram tip weight, would both have a frequency measurement of 254 cpm. But the point is the same regardless of the frequency measurement method.



Here are two shafts which if measured only for the butt frequency, would lead a golfer to believe that they have the same flex or same stiffness design. Yet in looking at the full-stiffness design of both shafts, these two shafts may have the same butt frequency measurement, but they could hardly be more different in terms of their overall stiffness design. These two shafts in the hands of the same player would result in a completely different stiffness performance and stiffness feel -- yet if the golfer were to look at the shafts by only referencing the single butt frequency measurement, the conclusion would be that they have the same stiffness.



This is not an isolated case. Within the 2,100 different shafts in our Shaft Bend Profile software, there are too many examples to list that are exactly like this -- shafts that have the same butt frequency measurement but are completely different in their design, performance and feel.



The same thing exists within iron shafts, which is an area in club fitting that many golfers make their shaft selection decision based on comparing the butt frequency measurements. Let’s take a look at an example of two iron shafts with the same butt frequency.



WRX-article-March-1-IRONS.jpg



What’s interesting when looking at the full-stiffness measurements of these two S flex iron shafts is that within the world of shafts, these two shafts may have the same butt frequency but they are almost as different in their stiffness measurements for the rest of their lengths as they possibly can be. Were the same golfer to play both these shafts, the Rombax S would feel like a telephone pole compared to the ProLaunch Red S. Yet both are S flex and both have the same exact butt frequency.



This matter of judging shaft stiffness, performance and feel on the basis of the butt frequency only can rise up to mislead golfers in the other direction as well. Let’s take a look at this next pair of shafts, a Cleveland Gold 60 S and the Fujikura Blue 004-R.



WRX-March-1-Wood-2.jpg



Remember that these frequency measurements in the Bend Profile software are done using a 454-gram tip weight. The butt frequency of these two shafts if measured with a 205-gram tip weight would be 254 cpm for the Cleveland Gold 60-S and 244 cpm for the Blur 004-R.



Looking only at the butt frequency measurements, one would think that this 10 cpm difference in butt frequency with a 205-gram tip weight, or 7 cpm difference with a 454-gram tip weight, would most definitely be the reason the Cleveland Gold is an S flex and the Fuji Blur an R flex.



But take a look at all of the rest of the relative stiffness measurements after the butt frequency measurement. The 2- 3-5 differences in frequency for the 26 inch, 21 inch and 16 inch positions on the shaft are so small to be insignificant in terms of a stiffness difference in two shafts. Even the 13 cpm difference in the very tip end of the shaft is extremely small in terms of a performance or feel difference.



For all intents and purposes, beyond that single butt frequency measurement, these two shafts are so close in stiffness design to each other that only a very small number of very feel sensitive players could ever tell the difference in performance or feel between these two shafts.



Another interesting point from this comes to mind when you think about sorting shafts by their butt frequency as a way to make sure all the shafts in a set have the same stiffness. Think about that based on what you have seen in the previous graphs which show shafts of the same butt frequency but totally different over the rest of the shaft, and this above graph which shows two shafts that are completely different for their butt frequency yet so very close to each other over the entire rest of the shaft.



But what about that 7 cpm difference in the butt frequency measurements? Wouldn’t a golfer feel that difference even if the rest of the two shafts are so close to each other in their stiffness design?



Consider this: In the installation of wood shafts into a driver and fairway woods, almost all of that very area where the butt frequency measurement is performed is cut off the shaft when the woods are built to conventional playing lengths. Most shafts for woods are made with a raw uncut length of 45 inches or 46 inches. When installed in most driver heads, to achieve a playing length for the driver of 45 inches, in the area of three inches is cut from the butt end of the raw shaft after installation.



That means the position on the shaft where the butt frequency is measured is now just two inches from the end of the grip. Do you think that last two inches of the butt of the shaft bends very much during the swing? No, it doesn’t, which in turn even further negates the 7 cpm difference in butt frequency between these two shafts in our above example.

Shaft stiffness design selection has to be made not just on the basis of the butt frequency, but on the basis of the stiffness of the full length of the shaft. So the next time you hit shots with a club that you know has the same frequency but the shaft feels or performs different, you now know why. Or the next time you hit shots with two clubs that you are sure have different stiffnesses yet feel and perform the same, you know that reason as well.



Bottom line? If you are serious about your shaft selection, you need to be working with a good, experienced custom club maker who is cognizant of these factors and who is able to show you the actual differences and similarities of the stiffness design of the whole shaft.

Comments

  • TLT_DanTLT_Dan TLT_DAN Hampton, ONMembers Posts: 1,069 ✭✭
    I applaud Tom's work and agree whole heartily with him on this. Not many have booked as many man hours as he has researching and testing - then reporting without reservation or bias.
  • BrianL99BrianL99 Banned Posts: 5,116 ClubWRX


    By Tom Wishon, GolfWRX Featured Writer





    Bottom line? If you are serious about your shaft selection, you need to be working with a good, experienced custom club maker who is cognizant of these factors and who is able to show you the actual differences and similarities of the stiffness design of the whole shaft.




    Unfortunately, only about 5% will read your post ... about 3% will understand ... the other 95% will stick to thinking butt frequency is the end all be all (or even worse, believe that "R' or "S" really means something) and will continue to play with the wrong shaft.
  • G-BoneG-Bone Better than most... Members Posts: 2,711 ✭✭
    edited Mar 2, 2013 #4
    Zak, you bring up some very interesting points regarding Tom's measurements and software. To me, what is most amazing, is the human swing factor itself, let me explain.



    If you look at Mr. Wishon's software and compare Diamana Kai'li 60 stiff to GD Tour AD DI6 stiff you will see they are almost identical frequencies until you get to the tip section. At that point the AD DI is about 9% stiffer. General logic would lead you to believe that the AD DI6 would launch slightly lower with slightly less spin then the Kai'li 60. However, you must plug in the human, in this case, me!



    Today while hitting balls outside on Trackman, using the same head and balls and interchanging the two above mentioned shafts, simple logic did not apply. I did indeed launch Kai'li 60 higher than AD DI6, however with my swing, Kai'li had less spin... Crazy humans! Now, the numbers say this isn't possible, yet in real world applications it certainly is, and was. Also, what the software can not show is these facts; even thow AD DI6 weights 4 grams more than Kai'li 60, I had 2 mph more club head speed with 5 mph more ball speed with AD DI6... Why you ask, I have no idea... Because I'm human I guess.



    So what I take away form all this **** business is this, on paper, a 16th seed should never beat a 1st seed, but as Rory and Tiger can tell you... It happened. What else do I take from this; all the stats and measurements are good guides, but as Zak mentioned, nothing can take the place of a first class fitting to help improve our scores and the level of pleasure our wonderful game brings us.



    Great post Zak!
    PING G410 LST Driver 8º ~ GD Tour AD IZ
    TaylorMade M5 Fairway 15º ~ GD Tour AD IZ
    Callaway Apex 19 Hybrid 20º ~ GD Tour AD HY
    Callaway Apex 19 Hybrid 23º ~ GD Tour AD HY
    Epon by Endo AF-505 Irons 5–PW ~ Rifle Project X
    PING Glide 2.0 Stealth Wedge 50/SS (51º) ~ Rifle Project X
    PING Glide 2.0 Stealth Wedge 56/SS (57º) - Tour Department 'SG' Grind ~ Rifle Project X
    PING Glide 2.0 Stealth Wedge 60/SS (63º) - Tour Department 'SG' Grind ~ Rifle Project X
    Titleist Scotty Cameron Circle T Del Mar Buttonback Select Tour Prototype (A026140)
    Titleist Pro V1 ~ #19
  • tx33tx33 Members Posts: 456 ✭✭
    G-Bone wrote:
    However, you must plug in the human, in this case, me!


    Which is exactly why fitting is, regardless of the advances in science, still an art. Tom's software is great for understanding shaft differences/similarities and no serious fitter should be without. Matching shaft to player (or vv) is more than a numbers game though. FEEL cannot be captured in any model, since it varies from player to player in both WHAT we feel and what feel we LIKE. The same goes for trackman #: sometimes the best performing shaft just doesn't feel right to the player and with confidence being such a big factor he/she'd probably be better of with a better feeling and 'less' performing shaft. This is even more so when people (as they often do) think of only distance when defining best performance.
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,630 ✭✭
    G-Bone wrote:


    Zak, you bring up some very interesting points regarding Tom's measurements and software. To me, what is most amazing, is the human swing factor itself, let me explain.



    If you look at Mr. Wishon's software and compare Diamana Kai'li 60 stiff to GD Tour AD DI6 stiff you will see they are almost identical frequencies until you get to the tip section. At that point the AD DI is about 9% stiffer. General logic would lead you to believe that the AD DI6 would launch slightly lower with slightly less spin then the Kai'li 60. However, you must plug in the human, in this case, me!



    Today while hitting balls outside on Trackman, using the same head and balls and interchanging the two above mentioned shafts, simple logic did not apply. I did indeed launch Kai'li 60 higher than AD DI6, however with my swing, Kai'li had less spin... Crazy humans! Now, the numbers say this isn't possible, yet in real world applications it certainly is, and was. Also, what the software can not show is these facts; even thow AD DI6 weights 4 grams more than Kai'li 60, I had 2 mph more club head speed with 5 mph more ball speed with AD DI6... Why you ask, I have no idea... Because I'm human I guess.



    So what I take away form all this **** business is this, on paper, a 16th seed should never beat a 1st seed, but as Rory and Tiger can tell you... It happened. What else do I take from this; all the stats and measurements are good guides, but as Zak mentioned, nothing can take the place of a first class fitting to help improve our scores and the level of pleasure our wonderful game brings us.



    Great post Zak!




    Even your experience can be explained by Toms numbers, no problem at all :-)

    - Like Tom has made a point of endless times is that the labels "High launch" or "Low Launch" is only valid for players with a late to very late release. However, FEEL is a major factor of influence to how you swing that club, so depending on your preference for feel, we will see differences also on mid release players, but those changes does not follow the same numerical pattern as the late release player, it follow the "preference line" for the player, and we never know where that takes us.



    Last week a Danish Touring pro who plays Dynamic Gold Tour X7 in irons and the original Grafalloy BLUE X flex in his driver was by for some shaft help. I was expecting a very high club speed or a very aggressive swing, but no, none into the extreme.

    His iron club speed with a #6 iron at 37.50 is 102 mph, but we could not get him beyond 112 with the driver.



    Both his iron shafts and driver shaft is in the heavy end, so by logic a lighter driver shaft would speed him up a bit, but no, club speed dropped to 104-105 when we tested options in the mid 60 gram range. Tried PX Ti 8A4 who is mid 80, but no Club speed did not change from the 104-105 level, but now i could see he was struggling with weight. His Grafalloy BLUE could not be changed, and the reason was not weight but bend profile. The stiff feeling butt and over all feel, was the only shaft who gave him confidence to swing his best, but flex needs is way above need for his swing and club speed, but he became more aggressive with his Blue, but thats how his swing by nature is. I could actually see him smiling in the transition of the club.



    So even this player, with a grooved swing and a late release changed his swing caused by the FEEL of the shaft, so in many cases the club fitter has to navigate from feedback of FEEL from the player. With this feedback combined with Toms software you can get there. Some players like it stiffer tip side or butt side, and then we just look for it, others want it softer mid, and than we just look for that.



    Even if feel might turn it all upside down when a shaft come in the hand of a player, as long as the club fitter can judge his swing right, and get the needed wishes for how the player likes it to feel, maybe by using a shaft he played and liked as reference, Tom's Shaft profile software is still the best tool available. I can say that with some authority since i have access to the most advanced shaft fitting system made the Shaft Fit PRO. The problem with shaft fit PRO is the feel factor. On paper we might improve like we want from pure math, but when we make this fusion of math to human being, the human factor is always the dominating, so a good club fitter would now how to take advantage of that numbers no matter case.



    Its nothing wrong with the numbers or the math, its only a misjudgment when we convert them to performance in the hands of a human being without knowing the players preference for feel.



    To me a shaft fitting has 2 parameters only, but one of them has a lot of sub levels

    #1 - Shaft length

    #2 - Feel



    Thats it in short terms, but Feel includes both feel of total weight/shaft weight - feel of swing weight or balance, feel of flex at all stages in the swing from take away trough impact. When length and feel is right, it works, and thats what it all boils down to, and a good fitter would now how to navigate in those numbers to please the players preference for feel.
  • forgedforeverforgedforever Members Posts: 1,750 ✭✭
    Absolutely great information here shared by Mr. Wishon. I am by no means a club fitter, but this confirms other things I have learned about the differences and similarities in golf shafts over the past year.



    This should be required reading for any WRX'er who is truly serious about improving his or her game by a change in equipment.
  • Radeon962Radeon962 ClubWRX Posts: 1,955 ClubWRX
    Very interesting and should be a mandatory read.



    Thanks for posting.



    Bill
  • Darth_BladerDarth_Blader Members Posts: 986 ✭✭
    G-Bone wrote:


    Zak, you bring up some very interesting points regarding Tom's measurements and software. To me, what is most amazing, is the human swing factor itself, let me explain.



    If you look at Mr. Wishon's software and compare Diamana Kai'li 60 stiff to GD Tour AD DI6 stiff you will see they are almost identical frequencies until you get to the tip section. At that point the AD DI is about 9% stiffer. General logic would lead you to believe that the AD DI6 would launch slightly lower with slightly less spin then the Kai'li 60. However, you must plug in the human, in this case, me!



    Today while hitting balls outside on Trackman, using the same head and balls and interchanging the two above mentioned shafts, simple logic did not apply. I did indeed launch Kai'li 60 higher than AD DI6, however with my swing, Kai'li had less spin... Crazy humans! Now, the numbers say this isn't possible, yet in real world applications it certainly is, and was. Also, what the software can not show is these facts; even thow AD DI6 weights 4 grams more than Kai'li 60, I had 2 mph more club head speed with 5 mph more ball speed with AD DI6... Why you ask, I have no idea... Because I'm human I guess.



    So what I take away form all this **** business is this, on paper, a 16th seed should never beat a 1st seed, but as Rory and Tiger can tell you... It happened. What else do I take from this; all the stats and measurements are good guides, but as Zak mentioned, nothing can take the place of a first class fitting to help improve our scores and the level of pleasure our wonderful game brings us.



    Great post Zak!




    Tom wrote the article...Zak just posted it...
    Cobra F9 9* UST Attas Coool
    Rogue 15* Aldila Max 75
    Vsteel 7w Rogue 80
    S55 4-PW CTaper S+
    Scratch 8620 50* KBS CTaper S+
    Scratch 8620 56* KBS CTaper S+
    Scratch TI 60 DG 400
    Odyssey LE PT10
  • G-BoneG-Bone Better than most... Members Posts: 2,711 ✭✭

    G-Bone wrote:


    Zak, you bring up some very interesting points regarding Tom's measurements and software. To me, what is most amazing, is the human swing factor itself, let me explain.



    If you look at Mr. Wishon's software and compare Diamana Kai'li 60 stiff to GD Tour AD DI6 stiff you will see they are almost identical frequencies until you get to the tip section. At that point the AD DI is about 9% stiffer. General logic would lead you to believe that the AD DI6 would launch slightly lower with slightly less spin then the Kai'li 60. However, you must plug in the human, in this case, me!



    Today while hitting balls outside on Trackman, using the same head and balls and interchanging the two above mentioned shafts, simple logic did not apply. I did indeed launch Kai'li 60 higher than AD DI6, however with my swing, Kai'li had less spin... Crazy humans! Now, the numbers say this isn't possible, yet in real world applications it certainly is, and was. Also, what the software can not show is these facts; even thow AD DI6 weights 4 grams more than Kai'li 60, I had 2 mph more club head speed with 5 mph more ball speed with AD DI6... Why you ask, I have no idea... Because I'm human I guess.



    So what I take away form all this **** business is this, on paper, a 16th seed should never beat a 1st seed, but as Rory and Tiger can tell you... It happened. What else do I take from this; all the stats and measurements are good guides, but as Zak mentioned, nothing can take the place of a first class fitting to help improve our scores and the level of pleasure our wonderful game brings us.



    Great post Zak!




    Even your experience can be explained by Toms numbers, no problem at all :-)

    - Like Tom has made a point of endless times is that the labels "High launch" or "Low Launch" is only valid for players with a late to very late release. However, FEEL is a major factor of influence to how you swing that club, so depending on your preference for feel, we will see differences also on mid release players, but those changes does not follow the same numerical pattern as the late release player, it follow the "preference line" for the player, and we never know where that takes us.



    Last week a Danish Touring pro who plays Dynamic Gold Tour X7 in irons and the original Grafalloy BLUE X flex in his driver was by for some shaft help. I was expecting a very high club speed or a very aggressive swing, but no, none into the extreme.

    His iron club speed with a #6 iron at 37.50 is 102 mph, but we could not get him beyond 112 with the driver.



    Both his iron shafts and driver shaft is in the heavy end, so by logic a lighter driver shaft would speed him up a bit, but no, club speed dropped to 104-105 when we tested options in the mid 60 gram range. Tried PX Ti 8A4 who is mid 80, but no Club speed did not change from the 104-105 level, but now i could see he was struggling with weight. His Grafalloy BLUE could not be changed, and the reason was not weight but bend profile. The stiff feeling butt and over all feel, was the only shaft who gave him confidence to swing his best, but flex needs is way above need for his swing and club speed, but he became more aggressive with his Blue, but thats how his swing by nature is. I could actually see him smiling in the transition of the club.



    So even this player, with a grooved swing and a late release changed his swing caused by the FEEL of the shaft, so in many cases the club fitter has to navigate from feedback of FEEL from the player. With this feedback combined with Toms software you can get there. Some players like it stiffer tip side or butt side, and then we just look for it, others want it softer mid, and than we just look for that.



    Even if feel might turn it all upside down when a shaft come in the hand of a player, as long as the club fitter can judge his swing right, and get the needed wishes for how the player likes it to feel, maybe by using a shaft he played and liked as reference, Tom's Shaft profile software is still the best tool available. I can say that with some authority since i have access to the most advanced shaft fitting system made the Shaft Fit PRO. The problem with shaft fit PRO is the feel factor. On paper we might improve like we want from pure math, but when we make this fusion of math to human being, the human factor is always the dominating, so a good club fitter would now how to take advantage of that numbers no matter case.



    Its nothing wrong with the numbers or the math, its only a misjudgment when we convert them to performance in the hands of a human being without knowing the players preference for feel.



    To me a shaft fitting has 2 parameters only, but one of them has a lot of sub levels

    #1 - Shaft length

    #2 - Feel



    Thats it in short terms, but Feel includes both feel of total weight/shaft weight - feel of swing weight or balance, feel of flex at all stages in the swing from take away trough impact. When length and feel is right, it works, and thats what it all boils down to, and a good fitter would now how to navigate in those numbers to please the players preference for feel.




    HJ, great summary, thank you. . I guess what I was calling the "human factor" you are calling "feel," which I couldn't agree with more. When the shaft feels right for me it gives me more confidence, and at that point I make a better swing and generally yield better results. Hence my findings.



    On a separate note, I know Mr. Wishon's software has AD DI6 and Kai'li 60 profiles, but I'm wondering if it has AD BB6? If so, would it be possible for you to post the graph of all three together? I'm very curious of the math behind the BB. Thanks!
    PING G410 LST Driver 8º ~ GD Tour AD IZ
    TaylorMade M5 Fairway 15º ~ GD Tour AD IZ
    Callaway Apex 19 Hybrid 20º ~ GD Tour AD HY
    Callaway Apex 19 Hybrid 23º ~ GD Tour AD HY
    Epon by Endo AF-505 Irons 5–PW ~ Rifle Project X
    PING Glide 2.0 Stealth Wedge 50/SS (51º) ~ Rifle Project X
    PING Glide 2.0 Stealth Wedge 56/SS (57º) - Tour Department 'SG' Grind ~ Rifle Project X
    PING Glide 2.0 Stealth Wedge 60/SS (63º) - Tour Department 'SG' Grind ~ Rifle Project X
    Titleist Scotty Cameron Circle T Del Mar Buttonback Select Tour Prototype (A026140)
    Titleist Pro V1 ~ #19
  • G-BoneG-Bone Better than most... Members Posts: 2,711 ✭✭

    G-Bone wrote:


    Zak, you bring up some very interesting points regarding Tom's measurements and software. To me, what is most amazing, is the human swing factor itself, let me explain.



    If you look at Mr. Wishon's software and compare Diamana Kai'li 60 stiff to GD Tour AD DI6 stiff you will see they are almost identical frequencies until you get to the tip section. At that point the AD DI is about 9% stiffer. General logic would lead you to believe that the AD DI6 would launch slightly lower with slightly less spin then the Kai'li 60. However, you must plug in the human, in this case, me!



    Today while hitting balls outside on Trackman, using the same head and balls and interchanging the two above mentioned shafts, simple logic did not apply. I did indeed launch Kai'li 60 higher than AD DI6, however with my swing, Kai'li had less spin... Crazy humans! Now, the numbers say this isn't possible, yet in real world applications it certainly is, and was. Also, what the software can not show is these facts; even thow AD DI6 weights 4 grams more than Kai'li 60, I had 2 mph more club head speed with 5 mph more ball speed with AD DI6... Why you ask, I have no idea... Because I'm human I guess.



    So what I take away form all this **** business is this, on paper, a 16th seed should never beat a 1st seed, but as Rory and Tiger can tell you... It happened. What else do I take from this; all the stats and measurements are good guides, but as Zak mentioned, nothing can take the place of a first class fitting to help improve our scores and the level of pleasure our wonderful game brings us.



    Great post Zak!




    Tom wrote the article...Zak just posted it...




    td, thank you for the correction. I hadn't realized that.
    PING G410 LST Driver 8º ~ GD Tour AD IZ
    TaylorMade M5 Fairway 15º ~ GD Tour AD IZ
    Callaway Apex 19 Hybrid 20º ~ GD Tour AD HY
    Callaway Apex 19 Hybrid 23º ~ GD Tour AD HY
    Epon by Endo AF-505 Irons 5–PW ~ Rifle Project X
    PING Glide 2.0 Stealth Wedge 50/SS (51º) ~ Rifle Project X
    PING Glide 2.0 Stealth Wedge 56/SS (57º) - Tour Department 'SG' Grind ~ Rifle Project X
    PING Glide 2.0 Stealth Wedge 60/SS (63º) - Tour Department 'SG' Grind ~ Rifle Project X
    Titleist Scotty Cameron Circle T Del Mar Buttonback Select Tour Prototype (A026140)
    Titleist Pro V1 ~ #19
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,630 ✭✭
    @G-Bone ...sorry no BB6 but the others is close to each other, Di 6 S is slightly stiffer all the way butt to tip, vs Kali 60 S



    http://peecee.dk/upload/view/403537/full



    http://peecee.dk/upload/view/403538/full



    Both from Tom Wishons Shaftprofiling system
  • gvogelgvogel Members Posts: 7,447 ✭✭




    Even your experience can be explained by Toms numbers, no problem at all :-)

    - Like Tom has made a point of endless times is that the labels "High launch" or "Low Launch" is only valid for players with a late to very late release. However, FEEL is a major factor of influence to how you swing that club, so depending on your preference for feel, we will see differences also on mid release players, but those changes does not follow the same numerical pattern as the late release player, it follow the "preference line" for the player, and we never know where that takes us.



    Last week a Danish Touring pro who plays Dynamic Gold Tour X7 in irons and the original Grafalloy BLUE X flex in his driver was by for some shaft help. I was expecting a very high club speed or a very aggressive swing, but no, none into the extreme.

    His iron club speed with a #6 iron at 37.50 is 102 mph, but we could not get him beyond 112 with the driver.



    Both his iron shafts and driver shaft is in the heavy end, so by logic a lighter driver shaft would speed him up a bit, but no, club speed dropped to 104-105 when we tested options in the mid 60 gram range. Tried PX Ti 8A4 who is mid 80, but no Club speed did not change from the 104-105 level, but now i could see he was struggling with weight. His Grafalloy BLUE could not be changed, and the reason was not weight but bend profile. The stiff feeling butt and over all feel, was the only shaft who gave him confidence to swing his best, but flex needs is way above need for his swing and club speed, but he became more aggressive with his Blue, but thats how his swing by nature is. I could actually see him smiling in the transition of the club.



    So even this player, with a grooved swing and a late release changed his swing caused by the FEEL of the shaft, so in many cases the club fitter has to navigate from feedback of FEEL from the player. With this feedback combined with Toms software you can get there. Some players like it stiffer tip side or butt side, and then we just look for it, others want it softer mid, and than we just look for that.



    Even if feel might turn it all upside down when a shaft come in the hand of a player, as long as the club fitter can judge his swing right, and get the needed wishes for how the player likes it to feel, maybe by using a shaft he played and liked as reference, Tom's Shaft profile software is still the best tool available. I can say that with some authority since i have access to the most advanced shaft fitting system made the Shaft Fit PRO. The problem with shaft fit PRO is the feel factor. On paper we might improve like we want from pure math, but when we make this fusion of math to human being, the human factor is always the dominating, so a good club fitter would now how to take advantage of that numbers no matter case.



    Its nothing wrong with the numbers or the math, its only a misjudgment when we convert them to performance in the hands of a human being without knowing the players preference for feel.



    To me a shaft fitting has 2 parameters only, but one of them has a lot of sub levels

    #1 - Shaft length

    #2 - Feel



    Thats it in short terms, but Feel includes both feel of total weight/shaft weight - feel of swing weight or balance, feel of flex at all stages in the swing from take away trough impact. When length and feel is right, it works, and thats what it all boils down to, and a good fitter would now how to navigate in those numbers to please the players preference for feel.




    In my judgement, that is the post of the year.



    It's great to have the numbers on the shafts, but in the end the human element is much harder to quantify.



    Thank you Howard Jones.



    Bty, I would be at your shop to help me with my graphite iron shaft quest, but Denmark is a bit of a stretch from Buffalo, NY!
    Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing-glove.  P.G. Wodehouse
  • G-BoneG-Bone Better than most... Members Posts: 2,711 ✭✭


    @G-Bone ...sorry no BB6 but the others is close to each other, Di 6 S is slightly stiffer all the way butt to tip, vs Kali 60 S



    http://peecee.dk/upload/view/403537/full



    http://peecee.dk/upload/view/403538/full



    Both from Tom Wishons Shaftprofiling system




    Thank you, sir!
    PING G410 LST Driver 8º ~ GD Tour AD IZ
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  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 8,630 ✭✭
    edited Mar 4, 2013 #15
    gvogel wrote:



    Even your experience can be explained by Toms numbers, no problem at all :-)

    - Like Tom has made a point of endless times is that the labels "High launch" or "Low Launch" is only valid for players with a late to very late release. However, FEEL is a major factor of influence to how you swing that club, so depending on your preference for feel, we will see differences also on mid release players, but those changes does not follow the same numerical pattern as the late release player, it follow the "preference line" for the player, and we never know where that takes us.



    Last week a Danish Touring pro who plays Dynamic Gold Tour X7 in irons and the original Grafalloy BLUE X flex in his driver was by for some shaft help. I was expecting a very high club speed or a very aggressive swing, but no, none into the extreme.

    His iron club speed with a #6 iron at 37.50 is 102 mph, but we could not get him beyond 112 with the driver.



    Both his iron shafts and driver shaft is in the heavy end, so by logic a lighter driver shaft would speed him up a bit, but no, club speed dropped to 104-105 when we tested options in the mid 60 gram range. Tried PX Ti 8A4 who is mid 80, but no Club speed did not change from the 104-105 level, but now i could see he was struggling with weight. His Grafalloy BLUE could not be changed, and the reason was not weight but bend profile. The stiff feeling butt and over all feel, was the only shaft who gave him confidence to swing his best, but flex needs is way above need for his swing and club speed, but he became more aggressive with his Blue, but thats how his swing by nature is. I could actually see him smiling in the transition of the club.



    So even this player, with a grooved swing and a late release changed his swing caused by the FEEL of the shaft, so in many cases the club fitter has to navigate from feedback of FEEL from the player. With this feedback combined with Toms software you can get there. Some players like it stiffer tip side or butt side, and then we just look for it, others want it softer mid, and than we just look for that.



    Even if feel might turn it all upside down when a shaft come in the hand of a player, as long as the club fitter can judge his swing right, and get the needed wishes for how the player likes it to feel, maybe by using a shaft he played and liked as reference, Tom's Shaft profile software is still the best tool available. I can say that with some authority since i have access to the most advanced shaft fitting system made the Shaft Fit PRO. The problem with shaft fit PRO is the feel factor. On paper we might improve like we want from pure math, but when we make this fusion of math to human being, the human factor is always the dominating, so a good club fitter would now how to take advantage of that numbers no matter case.



    Its nothing wrong with the numbers or the math, its only a misjudgment when we convert them to performance in the hands of a human being without knowing the players preference for feel.



    To me a shaft fitting has 2 parameters only, but one of them has a lot of sub levels

    #1 - Shaft length

    #2 - Feel



    Thats it in short terms, but Feel includes both feel of total weight/shaft weight - feel of swing weight or balance, feel of flex at all stages in the swing from take away trough impact. When length and feel is right, it works, and thats what it all boils down to, and a good fitter would now how to navigate in those numbers to please the players preference for feel.




    In my judgement, that is the post of the year.



    It's great to have the numbers on the shafts, but in the end the human element is much harder to quantify.



    Thank you Howard Jones.



    Bty, I would be at your shop to help me with my graphite iron shaft quest, but Denmark is a bit of a stretch from Buffalo, NY!




    I forgot to show you how Tom Wishons Software can tell why i could not kick his BLUE X out of the bag.

    - We did try added weight 14 inch down to simulate a higher shaft weight when he lost both club speed and PTR with shafts in the Mid 60 range. Here is a compare of the BLUE X vs the options i had to offer him. PS Project X is retail, but close to Ti just to have it in with the others.



    http://peecee.dk/upl...iew/403598/full



    His own BLUE X is the Black line . Its stiffer than all the others butt trough mid.

    ProLaunch AXIS Platinum is in for reference. He liked this shaft better than the others, even if its softer both MID and TIP, but the softer tip sections offset some of the soft feel of the MID, so i found the MID strength to be the most important for him.

    - When i saw him smile at transition with his own club, it was clear to me that without a stout butt and mid section, he could not load the shaft properly, but i could not solve it, because all my options is softer from 36 and all the way down to 16 from tip, but the section between 31 to 16 from tip is where the major difference is. I could offer him both slightly softer tip or butt, or slightly stiffer tip or butt, but none with a mid section as strong as his beloved BLUE X.



    http://peecee.dk/upl...iew/403599/full



    Tom Wishon's numbers DID identify why no shaft felt right for him, so just use them right.
  • eagles1eagles1 Members Posts: 1,272 ✭✭
    Thanks Tom for another insightful post. Another good example that illustrates your point is the fact that TT Dynalite Gold XP S300 has a butt frrequency GREATER than TT Dynamic Gold S300, with the latter playing MUCH stiffer.
  • cheekscheeks Members Posts: 903
    eagles1 wrote:


    Thanks Tom for another insightful post. Another good example that illustrates your point is the fact that TT Dynalite Gold XP S300 has a butt frrequency GREATER than TT Dynamic Gold S300, with the latter playing MUCH stiffer.




    Good observation. I noticed the numbers about a week ago and thought I was the only one who picked up on that.
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  • TomWishonTomWishon Sponsors Posts: 3,653 ✭✭
    G-Bone wrote:






    On a separate note, I know Mr. Wishon's software has AD DI6 and Kai'li 60 profiles, but I'm wondering if it has AD BB6? If so, would it be possible for you to post the graph of all three together? I'm very curious of the math behind the BB. Thanks!




    The BB's are on our list of GD shafts to add to the Bend Profile software for the 2013 update, which we are in the process of doing right now. Also being added are about 200 different models of Matrix shafts, all the new Fujis, Miyazakis, Mitsubishis, Grafalloys, USTs, TTempers, KBS and as many as we can gather up from trying top convince the shaft makers it is worthwhile for them to have their shafts in this data base. Looking at sometime probably in April for the 2013 update to the software to be sent to all who own this software.



    TOM
  • tx33tx33 Members Posts: 456 ✭✭
    Great, I was wondering when the 2013 update would come out (especially since you were profiling so many new shafts).



    On a #-comparisons-related note: the Titleist ProjectX 7C3 (S) measures stiffer throughout than the non-tour PX 6.0 (both original & 2012; since the Tour versions are not in the database), but the tip is 772 vs 877/802. AFAIK Titleist normally tips their Surefit shafts 0.5", so I'd think they should be stiffer rather than softer. Typo perhaps, since I thought the PX Tours used by Titleist were unaltered (or maybe they aren't)?
  • 3step3step Members Posts: 693 ✭✭
    G-Bone wrote:


    Zak, you bring up some very interesting points regarding Tom's measurements and software. To me, what is most amazing, is the human swing factor itself, let me explain.



    If you look at Mr. Wishon's software and compare Diamana Kai'li 60 stiff to GD Tour AD DI6 stiff you will see they are almost identical frequencies until you get to the tip section. At that point the AD DI is about 9% stiffer. General logic would lead you to believe that the AD DI6 would launch slightly lower with slightly less spin then the Kai'li 60. However, you must plug in the human, in this case, me!



    Today while hitting balls outside on Trackman, using the same head and balls and interchanging the two above mentioned shafts, simple logic did not apply. I did indeed launch Kai'li 60 higher than AD DI6, however with my swing, Kai'li had less spin... Crazy humans! Now, the numbers say this isn't possible, yet in real world applications it certainly is, and was. Also, what the software can not show is these facts; even thow AD DI6 weights 4 grams more than Kai'li 60, I had 2 mph more club head speed with 5 mph more ball speed with AD DI6... Why you ask, I have no idea... Because I'm human I guess.



    So what I take away form all this **** business is this, on paper, a 16th seed should never beat a 1st seed, but as Rory and Tiger can tell you... It happened. What else do I take from this; all the stats and measurements are good guides, but as Zak mentioned, nothing can take the place of a first class fitting to help improve our scores and the level of pleasure our wonderful game brings us.



    Great post Zak!




    This is a key component of shaft selection. Each human golfer will INTERPRET a given shaft design and their performance will result from being filtered through their ability, strength, body angles, mechanics, past experiences, etc.



    Therefore, even when you quantify a given shaft design, and a given golfer swing model, (which are good things, and will generate reliable conclusions ON AVERAGE), an individual golfer will still be required to test and compare, and thus learn which shaft design will yield their best performance.



    3step
  • Matty TMatty T Keen to give it a pump Members Posts: 758 ✭✭
    edited Mar 5, 2013 #21
    TOM,

    How might one be able to have veiwing abilities of your shaft database for comparisons and such?

    Or is it software that has to be purchased?
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  • TomWishonTomWishon Sponsors Posts: 3,653 ✭✭
    Matty T wrote:


    TOM,

    How might one be able to have veiwing abilities of your shaft database for comparisons and such?

    Or is it software that has to be purchased?






    It is available to anyone who wants it through the GOLFER'S STORE on our website, found there under TECHNOLOGY ITEMS. Annual updates of new shafts to the data base are free.



    TOM
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