The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

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  • SilkySilky Members Posts: 727 ✭✭
    edited Apr 26, 2017 #4022

    Silky wrote:



    All good questions. This is one of the toughest aspects of the golf swing to gain real clarity about. I cover these questions in depth in my Module Three: Advanced Arm Mechanics video and a bit in Module Five on the Release as well.



    Your arms go "up" relative to your body due to the folding of the right elbow. That happens as the end result of takeaway - both the arm pushaway and the pivot - creates a force that makes your right elbow fold. When that fold happens, it raises your left arm relative to your chest.



    So to hit the ball a long way in the Long Game, you need a full backswing motion in order to generate sufficient CH speed. A half a backswing won't cut it. You need the extra clubhead travel that the levers give you - upper arms off the chest and up (shoulder joint motion), right elbow folding and the wrists c0cking.



    You also need some "up/down" because you are hitting an object sitting on the ground. A flat backswing would hit everything except driver really thin - not solid.



    The arms do not actually have a lot of "drop" - the upper arms come back down to the chest as the right elbow bend straightens (reverses course from backswing) so that the arms are moving down, out and forward (a bit toward mid-line of torso). I call that "independent arm motion in Transition" meaning it is motion happening in the shoulder socket/upper arm joint and also in the right elbow. BUT - the force that makes those two joints move is - for average golfers especially, ie those without superfast pivots - coming from mainly the Pivot (a little bit from gravity as well). "Straight down" that Kiwi mentioned is relative to the body, and it is not literally 100% straight down, just less of a V motion than the backswing.



    The main thing that moves the arms in the Transition is the Pivot, meaning most of the range of motion of the arms is "dependent arm motion in Transition" coming directly from lateral hip shift, rightward tilt and body rotation.




    Thank you, Jim. I understand your term "independent arm motion in transition" completely but still have doubt about the actuator of that motion. I am pretty certain that, during transition, the acceleration of the lead shoulder away from the chin about horizontally toward the target will torque the lead arm backward, downward and outward. If that is the case, then, my question is what causes the lead shoulder to move away from the chin.




    Pivot on Transition is a blend of lateral hip girdle shift, Tilt Switch, hip rotation, core rotation and upper torso/s girdle rotation - all of those contribute either directly (as the muscles in the core and upper torso fire) or indirectly to move the left side of the s girdle in the horizontal dimension.



    The amount of independent arm motion in the shoulder socket that is "possible" and still hit the ball well is actually quite small. The ASI makes us think we have to "do SOMETHING!" with the arm muscles to move the arms - Hit Impulse.




    My old concept, which is wrong, is that the core muscles are only active against the pelvis to turn the torso around P6 onward. Now that I have realized from you is that they are active in transition too!? Probably responsible for the initial CCW rotation of the pelvis sending the left cheek back to the tush line and stretching of the left lat? And sending the left shoulder away from under the chin? And passively torquing the left arm for its independent motion from the shoulder girdle?
  • Nard_SNard_S Members Posts: 3,207 ✭✭


    The other main swing factor affecting the clubhead path and impact, is the degree of rightward tilt of your torso on the downswing.



    Tilt subtracts from rotation is one key concept. The more you tilt, the more open you need to be with your chest by impact to offset the tendency of the rightward tilt to create too much in to out clubhead path. If you do not tilt enough, your path will tend to be out to in.



    So if you for some reason you wanted to hit the biggest block imaginable, you would **** your chest rotation, add more right tilt than normal, and have more arm lag than normal. 30 degrees dead right would not be a surprise. The opposite for big Tug to the left.



    A lot of the challenge in learning the craft of ballstriking is how to blend or sync up the chest rotation, right tilt, arm lag and forearm rotation so that you can be "on time" at impact. And of course the other big piece of the puzzle is the point in the downswing that you start to lose your wrist **** angle or the Release Trigger, and how fast that wrist angle opening happens in time.




    Post that hits home.



    I tend to be left or OTT with mid irons, long irons and metal progressively get blocked.



    Let me ask, to offset added spine tilt, does chest rotation need to be more aggressive if all other things are equal. Inherently it would seem a driver setup allows for faster turn vs a wedge setup due to more upright spine angle. So that might negate any added effort Or is it that the added right tilt in a long club requires greater thru put in torso speed? Or is it more so about timing and rhythm?
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭
    Nard_S wrote:



    The other main swing factor affecting the clubhead path and impact, is the degree of rightward tilt of your torso on the downswing.



    Tilt subtracts from rotation is one key concept. The more you tilt, the more open you need to be with your chest by impact to offset the tendency of the rightward tilt to create too much in to out clubhead path. If you do not tilt enough, your path will tend to be out to in.



    So if you for some reason you wanted to hit the biggest block imaginable, you would **** your chest rotation, add more right tilt than normal, and have more arm lag than normal. 30 degrees dead right would not be a surprise. The opposite for big Tug to the left.



    A lot of the challenge in learning the craft of ballstriking is how to blend or sync up the chest rotation, right tilt, arm lag and forearm rotation so that you can be "on time" at impact. And of course the other big piece of the puzzle is the point in the downswing that you start to lose your wrist **** angle or the Release Trigger, and how fast that wrist angle opening happens in time.




    Post that hits home.



    I tend to be left or OTT with mid irons, long irons and metal progressively get blocked.



    Let me ask, to offset added spine tilt, does chest rotation need to be more aggressive if all other things are equal. Inherently it would seem a driver setup allows for faster turn vs a wedge setup due to more upright spine angle. So that might negate any added effort Or is it that the added right tilt in a long club requires greater thru put in torso speed? Or is it more so about timing and rhythm?




    It's a complicated issue that you are asking about. It helps if you can "think in 3D" - a lot of golfers don't know how to do that, so more words only makes things worse. Spine tilt to the right on the forward swing, in effect, reduces how open your chest rotation is,ie chest rotation shifts your CH path to the left, spine tilt shifts it to the right. You need the proper blend of both to have a neutral path.



    Yes - Spine Angle (angle of torso toward the ball/ground at Setup) is more upright for driver. So driver Pivot will be longer in space and time than a lob wedge swing. But for the consistency your brain/subconscious mind needs, you want the Tempo or elapsed time of the swing from start to finish to be the same for all full swings, all clubs. Which means the rpm speed of a full lob wedge swing has to be slower than with a driver. Driver Tempo is the baseline for all clubs in the bag. This topic is covered in depth in my Module Eight video on Coordination: Tempo, Rhythm and Timing, which we are in the process of editing right now, will be out around early July.
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭
    Silky wrote:


    Silky wrote:



    All good questions. This is one of the toughest aspects of the golf swing to gain real clarity about. I cover these questions in depth in my Module Three: Advanced Arm Mechanics video and a bit in Module Five on the Release as well.



    Your arms go "up" relative to your body due to the folding of the right elbow. That happens as the end result of takeaway - both the arm pushaway and the pivot - creates a force that makes your right elbow fold. When that fold happens, it raises your left arm relative to your chest.



    So to hit the ball a long way in the Long Game, you need a full backswing motion in order to generate sufficient CH speed. A half a backswing won't cut it. You need the extra clubhead travel that the levers give you - upper arms off the chest and up (shoulder joint motion), right elbow folding and the wrists c0cking.



    You also need some "up/down" because you are hitting an object sitting on the ground. A flat backswing would hit everything except driver really thin - not solid.



    The arms do not actually have a lot of "drop" - the upper arms come back down to the chest as the right elbow bend straightens (reverses course from backswing) so that the arms are moving down, out and forward (a bit toward mid-line of torso). I call that "independent arm motion in Transition" meaning it is motion happening in the shoulder socket/upper arm joint and also in the right elbow. BUT - the force that makes those two joints move is - for average golfers especially, ie those without superfast pivots - coming from mainly the Pivot (a little bit from gravity as well). "Straight down" that Kiwi mentioned is relative to the body, and it is not literally 100% straight down, just less of a V motion than the backswing.



    The main thing that moves the arms in the Transition is the Pivot, meaning most of the range of motion of the arms is "dependent arm motion in Transition" coming directly from lateral hip shift, rightward tilt and body rotation.




    Thank you, Jim. I understand your term "independent arm motion in transition" completely but still have doubt about the actuator of that motion. I am pretty certain that, during transition, the acceleration of the lead shoulder away from the chin about horizontally toward the target will torque the lead arm backward, downward and outward. If that is the case, then, my question is what causes the lead shoulder to move away from the chin.




    Pivot on Transition is a blend of lateral hip girdle shift, Tilt Switch, hip rotation, core rotation and upper torso/s girdle rotation - all of those contribute either directly (as the muscles in the core and upper torso fire) or indirectly to move the left side of the s girdle in the horizontal dimension.



    The amount of independent arm motion in the shoulder socket that is "possible" and still hit the ball well is actually quite small. The ASI makes us think we have to "do SOMETHING!" with the arm muscles to move the arms - Hit Impulse.




    My old concept, which is wrong, is that the core muscles are only active against the pelvis to turn the torso around P6 onward. Now that I have realized from you is that they are active in transition too!? Probably responsible for the initial CCW rotation of the pelvis sending the left cheek back to the tush line and stretching of the left lat? And sending the left shoulder away from under the chin? And passively torquing the left arm for its independent motion from the shoulder girdle?




    One might argue that the Core muscles are the most important muscles in the golf swing: for stablity/balance and for power. Glutes, low back, belly, obliques, QL, hip flexors/extendors, hip rotaters, TA, rectus - all part of the Core.



    Transition Trigger is the Core - oblique abs mainly - shifting left when the s girdle/chest still has 10-15 degrees of backswing coil to complete.



    The Pivot on the forward swing is a really Big Move in space that moves the arms/hands ( the now trendy "hub path") that move the club. It is massively counter-intuitive, due to the "common sense" view average golfers have that they must do something with the smaller muscles in wrists/arms to manipulate the tiny clubhead into a tiny spot on the back of the golf ball. Common sense is to use the fine motor control muscles for this very precise task. But good golf requires both precision and distance, and to generate the CH speed you need, you have to engage those bigger muscles of the Pivot to drive the motion.
  • Nard_SNard_S Members Posts: 3,207 ✭✭
    Jim,



    Interesting comment about establishing tempo and rhythm with driver. Ball striking is much better throughout the bag once I swing driver for a bit at the range. Used to start with wedge and work down bag but I noticed not too long ago that once I get some solid swings with driver, the "A swing" appears through out. I used to wait till late in session to try metals but I no longer do that.



    Thanks
  • SteveleeifcSteveleeifc Members Posts: 78
    Bought his book after reading this - there is a lot of info in there !!!! Takes some wading through and is quite technical at parts but very useful...
  • chigolfer1chigolfer1 Members Posts: 871 ✭✭
    edited May 2, 2017 #4028


    The other main swing factor affecting the clubhead path and impact, is the degree of rightward tilt of your torso on the downswing.



    Tilt subtracts from rotation is one key concept. The more you tilt, the more open you need to be with your chest by impact to offset the tendency of the rightward tilt to create too much in to out clubhead path. If you do not tilt enough, your path will tend to be out to in.



    So if you for some reason you wanted to hit the biggest block imaginable, you would **** your chest rotation, add more right tilt than normal, and have more arm lag than normal. 30 degrees dead right would not be a surprise. The opposite for big Tug to the left.



    A lot of the challenge in learning the craft of ballstriking is how to blend or sync up the chest rotation, right tilt, arm lag and forearm rotation so that you can be "on time" at impact. And of course the other big piece of the puzzle is the point in the downswing that you start to lose your wrist **** angle or the Release Trigger, and how fast that wrist angle opening happens in time.






    Jim, this is a great post and for us eternal duffers/occasional OTT's, it really turns on a lightbulb. I have been OTT my whole life and, in an effort to not be OTT, half my swings are almost all tilt with no rotation until the ball is struck. I'm sure you've seen these types of swings where the shoulder barely works out at all and just "crashes" into the right side. Well, at least I'm not OTT, lol, or at least that is what my brain is telling me I guess.



    I really liked the tilt subtracts from rotation and vice versa and how the golf swing is really a proper blending of tilt, chest rotation, arm lag, etc. Isn't that really what it comes down to in the sense that an athletic, coordinated person can look great after a year of golf and not so coordinated people spend their life trying to get it down? It sort of reminded me of this video where Tom Watson decided to play with more rotation and less tilt so he wasn't having to fight pushing it right on every shot:



    https://www.youtube....h?v=51koke_JejM





    Not really sure what my point or question is other than I thought the above was a great description of what happens and why the golf swing is so surprisingly complex. If I were to have a question, how does one work on synching up the correct amount of each of these factors? Or, is that like asking, how do I swing like a PGA player? Is there a particular drill that you use for this synching up and maybe experimenting with different amounts of tilt vs. rotation?
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭
    chigolfer1 wrote:



    The other main swing factor affecting the clubhead path and impact, is the degree of rightward tilt of your torso on the downswing.



    Tilt subtracts from rotation is one key concept. The more you tilt, the more open you need to be with your chest by impact to offset the tendency of the rightward tilt to create too much in to out clubhead path. If you do not tilt enough, your path will tend to be out to in.



    So if you for some reason you wanted to hit the biggest block imaginable, you would **** your chest rotation, add more right tilt than normal, and have more arm lag than normal. 30 degrees dead right would not be a surprise. The opposite for big Tug to the left.



    A lot of the challenge in learning the craft of ballstriking is how to blend or sync up the chest rotation, right tilt, arm lag and forearm rotation so that you can be "on time" at impact. And of course the other big piece of the puzzle is the point in the downswing that you start to lose your wrist **** angle or the Release Trigger, and how fast that wrist angle opening happens in time.






    Jim, this is a great post and for us eternal duffers/occasional OTT's, it really turns on a lightbulb. I have been OTT my whole life and, in an effort to not be OTT, half my swings are almost all tilt with no rotation until the ball is struck. I'm sure you've seen these types of swings where the shoulder barely works out at all and just "crashes" into the right side. Well, at least I'm not OTT, lol, or at least that is what my brain is telling me I guess.



    I really liked the tilt subtracts from rotation and vice versa and how the golf swing is really a proper blending of tilt, chest rotation, arm lag, etc. Isn't that really what it comes down to in the sense that an athletic, coordinated person can look great after a year of golf and not so coordinated people spend their life trying to get it down? It sort of reminded me of this video where Tom Watson decided to play with more rotation and less tilt so he wasn't having to fight pushing it right on every shot:



    https://www.youtube....h?v=51koke_JejM





    Not really sure what my point or question is other than I thought the above was a great description of what happens and why the golf swing is so surprisingly complex. If I were to have a question, how does one work on synching up the correct amount of each of these factors? Or, is that like asking, how do I swing like a PGA player? Is there a particular drill that you use for this synching up and maybe experimenting with different amounts of tilt vs. rotation?




    The "how do you do it" part is a great question. Starts with basic intellectual understanding of the concepts, which after some time will hopefully result in a Deep Insight about the truth of the concepts. Then mirror work to see yourself in slow motion do the pieces individually, then blended together. Getting the right shoulder to "track" down on it's own proper plane in the mirror is key - not too much down or out but a blend. Playing around with too much or too little of tilt, rotation and arm lag to see how that affects the clubhead path is another, all in slow mo in the mirror.



    Half speed swings on the range are next with a ball, deliberately altering the path in the extremes of in to out and out to in, with a square to the path clubface so that you are not hitting a push or pull due to clubface angle.



    For some Tilt Illusion is more powerful than the ASI and takes some study and contemplation to get the Deep Insight that enables one to see through the Illusion.



    I have worked with several hundred golf school students who have told me some version of this: that "in 20 plus years of golfing, taking lessons, reading books on the golf swing and watching videos, I have never ever heard one instructor explain this Tilt Illusion concept. Finally now I understand how and why I always come over the top and have a way to fix it."



    I get students who have come over the top to stop doing it within 30 minutes of working on the Tilt Illusion concept.



    Covered in depth in my Module Four: Mechanics of the Pivot video.



    And scores of advanced students who struggled with the opposite issue - too much right tilt and thus too much in to out path. Like Tom Watson.
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭
    I would add that arm lag, Tilt Illusion, rotation of the chest to be open at impact each are so important as swing concepts that each should have it's own thread on this forum. If a golfer truly understood those three things and how enormously impactful they are on achieving great ballstriking, probably half of the other threads would be ignored. Tilt Illusion material includes the key to Spine Angle too.



    I loved how Watson demonstrated Tilt Switch in that video with the club across his shoulder girdle and talked about reversing the shoulder "turn" (he did not explicitly say tilt but meant to say I think "tilt and turn") so the shaft angle stayed the same at just after impact as at the Top, but kind of mirror images of each other.
  • chigolfer1chigolfer1 Members Posts: 871 ✭✭
    edited May 2, 2017 #4031

    chigolfer1 wrote:



    The other main swing factor affecting the clubhead path and impact, is the degree of rightward tilt of your torso on the downswing.



    Tilt subtracts from rotation is one key concept. The more you tilt, the more open you need to be with your chest by impact to offset the tendency of the rightward tilt to create too much in to out clubhead path. If you do not tilt enough, your path will tend to be out to in.



    So if you for some reason you wanted to hit the biggest block imaginable, you would **** your chest rotation, add more right tilt than normal, and have more arm lag than normal. 30 degrees dead right would not be a surprise. The opposite for big Tug to the left.



    A lot of the challenge in learning the craft of ballstriking is how to blend or sync up the chest rotation, right tilt, arm lag and forearm rotation so that you can be "on time" at impact. And of course the other big piece of the puzzle is the point in the downswing that you start to lose your wrist **** angle or the Release Trigger, and how fast that wrist angle opening happens in time.






    Jim, this is a great post and for us eternal duffers/occasional OTT's, it really turns on a lightbulb. I have been OTT my whole life and, in an effort to not be OTT, half my swings are almost all tilt with no rotation until the ball is struck. I'm sure you've seen these types of swings where the shoulder barely works out at all and just "crashes" into the right side. Well, at least I'm not OTT, lol, or at least that is what my brain is telling me I guess.



    I really liked the tilt subtracts from rotation and vice versa and how the golf swing is really a proper blending of tilt, chest rotation, arm lag, etc. Isn't that really what it comes down to in the sense that an athletic, coordinated person can look great after a year of golf and not so coordinated people spend their life trying to get it down? It sort of reminded me of this video where Tom Watson decided to play with more rotation and less tilt so he wasn't having to fight pushing it right on every shot:



    https://www.youtube....h?v=51koke_JejM





    Not really sure what my point or question is other than I thought the above was a great description of what happens and why the golf swing is so surprisingly complex. If I were to have a question, how does one work on synching up the correct amount of each of these factors? Or, is that like asking, how do I swing like a PGA player? Is there a particular drill that you use for this synching up and maybe experimenting with different amounts of tilt vs. rotation?




    The "how do you do it" part is a great question. Starts with basic intellectual understanding of the concepts, which after some time will hopefully result in a Deep Insight about the truth of the concepts. Then mirror work to see yourself in slow motion do the pieces individually, then blended together. Getting the right shoulder to "track" down on it's own proper plane in the mirror is key - not too much down or out but a blend. Playing around with too much or too little of tilt, rotation and arm lag to see how that affects the clubhead path is another, all in slow mo in the mirror.



    Half speed swings on the range are next with a ball, deliberately altering the path in the extremes of in to out and out to in, with a square to the path clubface so that you are not hitting a push or pull due to clubface angle.



    For some Tilt Illusion is more powerful than the ASI and takes some study and contemplation to get the Deep Insight that enables one to see through the Illusion.



    I have worked with several hundred golf school students who have told me some version of this: that "in 20 plus years of golfing, taking lessons, reading books on the golf swing and watching videos, I have never ever heard one instructor explain this Tilt Illusion concept. Finally now I understand how and why I always come over the top and have a way to fix it."



    I get students who have come over the top to stop doing it within 30 minutes of working on the Tilt Illusion concept.



    Covered in depth in my Module Four: Mechanics of the Pivot video.



    And scores of advanced students who struggled with the opposite issue - too much right tilt and thus too much in to out path. Like Tom Watson.




    Thanks Jim, really good stuff. As you probably know, Monty and other instructors also have things out there similar to Watson's video about shoulder not crashing into side. For those of us, who fight OTT, it seems crazy but, of course, the point is you still need an element of tilt or you will still be OTT, just like Watson was when he demonstrated in the video of how it "felt" like this. Well, for severe true OTTs, it is how they actually swing
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭
    chigolfer1 wrote:


    chigolfer1 wrote:



    The other main swing factor affecting the clubhead path and impact, is the degree of rightward tilt of your torso on the downswing.



    Tilt subtracts from rotation is one key concept. The more you tilt, the more open you need to be with your chest by impact to offset the tendency of the rightward tilt to create too much in to out clubhead path. If you do not tilt enough, your path will tend to be out to in.



    So if you for some reason you wanted to hit the biggest block imaginable, you would **** your chest rotation, add more right tilt than normal, and have more arm lag than normal. 30 degrees dead right would not be a surprise. The opposite for big Tug to the left.



    A lot of the challenge in learning the craft of ballstriking is how to blend or sync up the chest rotation, right tilt, arm lag and forearm rotation so that you can be "on time" at impact. And of course the other big piece of the puzzle is the point in the downswing that you start to lose your wrist **** angle or the Release Trigger, and how fast that wrist angle opening happens in time.






    Jim, this is a great post and for us eternal duffers/occasional OTT's, it really turns on a lightbulb. I have been OTT my whole life and, in an effort to not be OTT, half my swings are almost all tilt with no rotation until the ball is struck. I'm sure you've seen these types of swings where the shoulder barely works out at all and just "crashes" into the right side. Well, at least I'm not OTT, lol, or at least that is what my brain is telling me I guess.



    I really liked the tilt subtracts from rotation and vice versa and how the golf swing is really a proper blending of tilt, chest rotation, arm lag, etc. Isn't that really what it comes down to in the sense that an athletic, coordinated person can look great after a year of golf and not so coordinated people spend their life trying to get it down? It sort of reminded me of this video where Tom Watson decided to play with more rotation and less tilt so he wasn't having to fight pushing it right on every shot:



    https://www.youtube....h?v=51koke_JejM





    Not really sure what my point or question is other than I thought the above was a great description of what happens and why the golf swing is so surprisingly complex. If I were to have a question, how does one work on synching up the correct amount of each of these factors? Or, is that like asking, how do I swing like a PGA player? Is there a particular drill that you use for this synching up and maybe experimenting with different amounts of tilt vs. rotation?




    The "how do you do it" part is a great question. Starts with basic intellectual understanding of the concepts, which after some time will hopefully result in a Deep Insight about the truth of the concepts. Then mirror work to see yourself in slow motion do the pieces individually, then blended together. Getting the right shoulder to "track" down on it's own proper plane in the mirror is key - not too much down or out but a blend. Playing around with too much or too little of tilt, rotation and arm lag to see how that affects the clubhead path is another, all in slow mo in the mirror.



    Half speed swings on the range are next with a ball, deliberately altering the path in the extremes of in to out and out to in, with a square to the path clubface so that you are not hitting a push or pull due to clubface angle.



    For some Tilt Illusion is more powerful than the ASI and takes some study and contemplation to get the Deep Insight that enables one to see through the Illusion.



    I have worked with several hundred golf school students who have told me some version of this: that "in 20 plus years of golfing, taking lessons, reading books on the golf swing and watching videos, I have never ever heard one instructor explain this Tilt Illusion concept. Finally now I understand how and why I always come over the top and have a way to fix it."



    I get students who have come over the top to stop doing it within 30 minutes of working on the Tilt Illusion concept.



    Covered in depth in my Module Four: Mechanics of the Pivot video.



    And scores of advanced students who struggled with the opposite issue - too much right tilt and thus too much in to out path. Like Tom Watson.




    Thanks Jim, really good stuff. As you probably know, Monty and other instructors also have things out there similar to Watson's video about shoulder not crashing into side. For those of us, who fight OTT, it seems crazy but, of course, the point is you still need an element of tilt or you will still be OTT, just like Watson was when he demonstrated in the video of how it "felt" like this. Well, for severe true OTTs, it is how they actually swing






    Good point. I think there is a huge gap between the top teachers's understanding of this issue and the average golfer. Why is OTT almost universal for mid to high handicaps?



    1. general tendency to view/think of the swing in 2D.



    2. ASI



    3. not understanding the immense role of the Pivot in driving the arms forward in the forward swing, ie the base of the arms "Triangle" is the shoulder girdle, which is also the top of the Pivot and it's most important part (NOT the hips as so many on this forum apparently believe). When you tilt/rotate that s girdle, that motion moves the arms down, out and forward.



    4. the Hit Impulse to create CH speed early.



    5. not understanding that your hands and clubhead do NOT work "out" toward the ball in Transition or "north" but rather they move "east" first until the clubhead is about waist high, and only then does it switch from east to northwest.
  • rteach1rteach1 Members Posts: 439
    Jim,



    Do I remember correctly that Module 4 was divided into Part A and Part B? Can you please tell us which part has the Tilt Illusion and approximately how many minutes in? Please consider this request as my official lobbying for a table of contents or section titles for future videos. Thank you.
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭
    edited May 2, 2017 #4034
    rteach1 wrote:


    Jim,



    Do I remember correctly that Module 4 was divided into Part A and Part B? Can you please tell us which part has the Tilt Illusion and approximately how many minutes in? Please consider this request as my official lobbying for a table of contents or section titles for future videos. Thank you.




    Tilt Illusion specifically is about how the torso tilts to your left side on backswing and then right on forward swing, blended in with hip flexion/extension/flexion/extension cycle, blended in with rotation of hips, core and torso. How you maintain forward Spine Angle is another big part of this. So really the entire Module 4 is devoted to those topics. Last half of Part A and first half or so of Part B contains the bulk of it.



    The Illusion itself is just that folks do not see the left side/right side tilt and they do not see the flexion/extension cycle.
  • rteach1rteach1 Members Posts: 439
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭
    One of the toughest things to learn about the golf swing is the relationship between independent arm action in the horizontal dimension of the forward swing and the Pivot.



    If you are struggling with poor Impact, could very well be that you are using your upper arm muscles to move the arms sideways across torso mid-line just before, during and impact, ie during the Release segment.



    If you wonder why that can be so problematic, stand normally and extend your lead arm to chest height and parallel to the ground. Move your arm up and down, side to side, on a 45 degree angle to the ground, and then in a circle. That arm to shoulder joint has a tremendous amount of range of motion!



    In golf, you are attempting to a hit a spot on the back of the golf ball the size of a dimple, using a spot on the center of the clubface the size of the tip of a pencil eraser, while the clubhead is moving 80-100 plus mph, over a huge arc from top of backswing to impact.



    If you are using the upper arm/shoulder joint to guide or steer for solid impact and accurate shots, or propel that motion for CH speed and power - good luck!



    SuperConnection of the upper arms during Release is only part of the Answer. You have to be actively engaging the Pivot to power the swing, ie to move the arms Triangle down, out and forward. Meaning your Pivot is primarily responsible for the eraser tip hitting the dimple on the golf ball, your Pivot is responsible for a huge chunk of your CH speed (Levers also play a role clearly but not upper arms levers after P6 when Release begins) and your Pivot is responsible for achieving an on plane clubshaft at impact and a good clubhead path, for accuracy.



    What tends to happen, for average golfers especially, is that they do in fact use their upper arms to try to achieve those three goals, and end up massively stalling their Pivots in order to do that.



    And learning to "do nothing" with your arms on the downswing (meaning arm muscles moving the arms in the horizontal dimension) will not work if you are not actively engaging your Pivot.
  • dog flogdog flog Members Posts: 1,364 ✭✭
    JIm Waldron, you remind me a lot of Dave Pelz. Both are coming at it scientifically. I bet both would agree the hardest part is how to transmit this info to the golfer that doesn't know these things yet. I appreciate the effort, knowing that I'm the bottleneck in the transmission process.
    Driver: Ping Anser 12°
    7 wood: Srixon Z 355 22°
    4 hybrid: Cleveland Classic 23°
    5 hybrid: Srixon Z355 26°
    6 hybrid: Cobra Fly-Z XL 28°
    Irons: Callaway X2Hot 7-A
    Wedges: Cleveland RTX cavity 52° 58°
    Putter: Ping Ketsch Cadence Heavy
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭
    dog flog wrote:


    JIm Waldron, you remind me a lot of Dave Pelz. Both are coming at it scientifically. I bet both would agree the hardest part is how to transmit this info to the golfer that doesn't know these things yet. I appreciate the effort, knowing that I'm the bottleneck in the transmission process.




    Great insight there, D!



    Most good teachers will tell you that clearing away dysfunctional/false mental pictures about the golf swing is one of the very first steps in the learning process. It is not a guarantee of success, since as a student, the golfer has to "own" the new mental picture at deeper level of his mind so that his body can begin to actually execute the motion. But is almost always a great place to start.



    An arm-dominant swing, objectively speaking, will never get the job done. If you doubt this, spend an hour on a public driving range and just sit and watch all the mid to high handicap golfers slash away with their arms at the golf ball, with little pivot action. Ask them (I have!) what exactly they are trying to do with their body to create solid impact and good distance and they will always talk about "doing something" with their arms.



    And I am not talking about the good striker at your club who "talks about his swing being all arms" but who in fact is using his Pivot to drive the motion mainly. It is vital when teaching or when discussing the golf swing theory to always clearly distinguish between subjective opinion/thought/feel and what is objectively happening. A rule which gets violated in a big way everyday on this forum!



    Watch what they do, don't listen to what they say is a good starting point.



    Go to a Tour event and get close up on the range and watch those guys and gals, and notice how much and how fast they coil/uncoil their bodies, and how there is no jerky, slashing motions with the arms.



    If you put your attention/awareness on your arms from first person subjective feel, and ignore all the other stuff that is happening (body parts) in your swing motion, OF COURSE you are going to conclude that your good shots are mainly due to your "arm swing".
  • borkerborker Members Posts: 670 ClubWRX
    edited May 4, 2017 #4039
    Jim, thanks so much for this thread and your time posting. Your ASI is an eye-opener and I've been intrigued by it since I first came across your first teasing of it at John Erickson's site way back in 2011.






    An arm-dominant swing, objectively speaking, will never get the job done. If you doubt this, spend an hour on a public driving range and just sit and watch all the mid to high handicap golfers slash away with their arms at the golf ball, with little pivot action.




    I spend a lot of time at the range and I don't agree with this. I honestly see more of a mix between those who try to lash at the ball with their arms only with little pivot (usually hitting it fat) and those violently trying to use their pivot (usually topping). But only the PURE beginners are the arms slashers; the ones who looked like they haven't been playing more than 6 months and all upper body. I dragged my wife and 5yo son out to range once and it was BOTH their first natural instinct to how to hit the ball. You see this is other beginners who just took up the game.



    Then you have the ones who have progressed from that complete noob stage. This is the majority at the range. They have maybe spent some time researching the swing, maybe had some lessons and now been playing the game over a year. These are the ones I now see with the "Tiger 1997" hip motion because they have now been told to rotate the hips for speed and body must pivot in good swing. Some I see (mostly experienced Asian women) REALLY jerk this movement in exaggerated way, contorting their body's like Michelle Wie. Problem is they are all over the place with; keeping posture, swing plane, steep/shallow, jerking handle, pulling it inside then out on down, hanging back. You name it. BUT hey, they have the pivot with the body controlled swing.



    So your swing model falls into the body pivot camp. Load the levers/triangle at the top then that assembly is then just moved by rest of body and pivot.



    1)Plane, swing and getting things aligned for precise powerful impact is literally controlled by the lower body pivot only? The "passive" arm assembly is just carried down and through. I understand no horizontal side/side motion but what about the V motion you've mentioned?



    2)Where does more clubhead speed come from? By How fast you can move hips and torso? Some pro's look effortless in their body motion yet generate high club speed.




    Go to a Tour event and get close up on the range and watch those guys and gals, and notice how much and how fast they coil/uncoil their bodies, and how there is no jerky, slashing motions with the arms.






    Could also explain why lower back and hip injuries are almost a guarantee for pro golfers?



    But one thing I will never forget is sitting at the driving range at 2012 Ryder Cup and in amazement in how DJ looked like he was hardly trying from a body speed uncoil yet was out driving even Bubba and Tiger. Rory on the other hand looks like he has tremendously super fast hips as did Sergio. (which is why I am actually surprised Sergio has never had back problems by now).
    Ping i/20 8.5° Diamana™ S+ 62 X, GP Niion
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  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭
    edited May 4, 2017 #4040
    B - sure lots of folks have poor Pivots as you suggest, but I think for the majority it is not because of them trying to achieve a "body controlled" swing.



    I think members of this site way over-exagerrate how "educated" the average golfers is regarding swing theory. Even if they do read the occasional golf magazine, not too many will be thinking about that theory at the range. Most simply resort to instinct, and their instinct is to have a lousy pivot due to the default mental picture of an arm dominant swing. Sure, you are right that some will show a crappy Pivot motion because they have no idea how to blend the pivot with the arm and wrist motion, which is the really Big Deal in the golf swing.



    I don't buy the common duality of a body v arms swing model. I think it is a false dichotomy based mainly on the fact that a lot of golf teachers historically show a lack of understanding of the really distinct difference between objective and subjective. All great players in the Big Picture sense, are using a swing that is mainly controlled by their Pivot. Their are differences, of course, but mostly in minor ways. And I am talking about objective reality, NOT what a particular pro golfer experiences in their subjective Bubble. Pivot driven swing does NOT mean the arms and wrists and other body parts don't make a contribution.



    That does not mean that if you simply learn to Pivot correctly, you will have a good swing. You need precise independent of the Pivot arm motion, mainly on the backswing. Very little independent arm motion on a good forward swing. You need to train your wrists how to work properly, again, mainly on the backswing.



    Your two questions. 1. your description about lower body pivot could not be further than the truth of my swing model. The entire Pivot is essential, and of the three main rotary parts - hips, core and upper torso/s girdle - the hips are the LEAST important. Most important is the shoulder girdle, which is the base of the Triangle, and when the base moves through space by tilting/rotating IT MOVES THE ARMS THROUGH SPACE. Which is something that very few golfers understand, mainly due to the ASI and other 2D Illusions. In my model, the main job of the "lower body" is to provide stability so that the core and shoulder girdle/torso can move rapidly through space, ie and thus move the arms Triangle.



    2. CH speed comes from a variety of sources: starts with the fast motion of the 3 rotary segments of the Pivot, especially the shoulder girdle moving fast in RPM speed, and from a wide arc position at the Top; then energy transfers to the five Levers - the upper arms, right elbow angle, and two wrist **** angles; that Energy Wave has an amplification due to the kinetic chain dynamic.



    3. Yeah, the swing is tough on your back and hips, especially as you get older. There will never be an "answer" to that dilemma, in my opinion, if you want to hit the ball a reasonable distance. It is just the nature of the golf swing. You have to twist to create enough CH speed to play well. So no swing model can fix that, only dedication to a fitness routine - especially core strength and flexibility.



    I will finish with my usual Word of Caution. All of this talk is just theory, and from my end, is just meant to help educate folks who visit this site, to hopefully lead them in a direction that will be productive. NOT the same as an actual one on one lesson with me. Not even close.



    The kind of intense debate and swing nerd discussion that is common on this forum almost never happens in my lessons and that of every teacher I have watched give instruction or talked to about this. I get that it is a "fun hobby" to engage in these arcane and esoteric and highly technical discussions of swing theory. But I cannot tell you how many students I have worked with who actually are blocking their ability to get better at golf precisely because of this obsession with swing theory.



    The idea seems to be if you can just "figure out" the theory part better, that this alone will somehow magically make you a better ballstriker. That idea is so far from being correct! At some point, the swing nerds have to realize that words and concepts are just symbols, and not very useful in getting your body to move through space in a way that creates better club motion through space, and thus better impact and great golf shots.



    The problem is that your body is NOT a symbol, and you need to figure out a way to connect your brain to that body to create new movement patterns that create better impact. And that means step by step learning, commitment to the process until you figure out how to do it a way that works for you.
  • ajax5184ajax5184 Members Posts: 117 ✭✭
    Hi Jim,



    I got your e book and have been working on the tilt switch in transition. I am having trouble keeping my head from moving forward in the downswing and I think not getting enough right tilt on downswing is part of my issue. I think I about have it down, at least in slow motion. It seems to really simplify the downswing, by the time the switch is finished, the club is automatically almost back down to parallel with the ground. That is without actively doing anything other than a little bump forward and tilting. My issue/question is, what do I do from that point? It feels like the swing is almost over and I don't feel like I have built any speed. It feels virtually impossible to use my arms at that point, which is a good thing. If I just rotate hard through at that point, it looks good on video, but feels like I wouldn't be able to get it past the red tees. Am I missing something, or is this a common feeling for someone who is used to using arm action from the top?



    Thanks

    Adam
  • Nard_SNard_S Members Posts: 3,207 ✭✭

    rteach1 wrote:


    Jim,



    Do I remember correctly that Module 4 was divided into Part A and Part B? Can you please tell us which part has the Tilt Illusion and approximately how many minutes in? Please consider this request as my official lobbying for a table of contents or section titles for future videos. Thank you.




    Tilt Illusion specifically is about how the torso tilts to your left side on backswing and then right on forward swing, blended in with hip flexion/extension/flexion/extension cycle, blended in with rotation of hips, core and torso. How you maintain forward Spine Angle is another big part of this. So really the entire Module 4 is devoted to those topics. Last half of Part A and first half or so of Part B contains the bulk of it.



    The Illusion itself is just that folks do not see the left side/right side tilt and they do not see the flexion/extension cycle.




    Basic question: Can you ever have too much left tilt?



    I seem to have plenty of right tilt but even the concept of left tilt never registered to me. From that my swing had too flat shoulders and too upright arms. The fix was "lower lead shoulder at the top" but in doing that I did not grasp the left tilt aspect as well so I want to work iit n better. Thus my question



    My miss w/ long clubs is blocked right. Mid & short clubs miss left, and though control of those are a lot better these days, the blocked Driver is of the biggest concerns.
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭
    Nard_S wrote:


    rteach1 wrote:


    Jim,



    Do I remember correctly that Module 4 was divided into Part A and Part B? Can you please tell us which part has the Tilt Illusion and approximately how many minutes in? Please consider this request as my official lobbying for a table of contents or section titles for future videos. Thank you.




    Tilt Illusion specifically is about how the torso tilts to your left side on backswing and then right on forward swing, blended in with hip flexion/extension/flexion/extension cycle, blended in with rotation of hips, core and torso. How you maintain forward Spine Angle is another big part of this. So really the entire Module 4 is devoted to those topics. Last half of Part A and first half or so of Part B contains the bulk of it.



    The Illusion itself is just that folks do not see the left side/right side tilt and they do not see the flexion/extension cycle.




    Basic question: Can you ever have too much left tilt?



    I seem to have plenty of right tilt but even the concept of left tilt never registered to me. From that my swing had too flat shoulders and too upright arms. The fix was "lower lead shoulder at the top" but in doing that I did not grasp the left tilt aspect as well so I want to work iit n better. Thus my question



    My miss w/ long clubs is blocked right. Mid & short clubs miss left, and though control of those are a lot better these days, the blocked Driver is of the biggest concerns.




    Yes, certainly you can have too much left tilt, in fact, it's possible to have too much range of motion in ANY moving body part.

    Which is one of the many reasons why swing theory falls flat a lot of the time. You need an actual lesson to know what the parameters are for how much and how little a body part should be moving through space. Same thing for the speed of the body part.



    The "fix" should seldom only be "what you look like at the end of a range motion" but rather how you actually start/execute the motion, ie which muscles to fire and when. Telling a golfer to achieve "left shoulder down more at the Top" without also telling him or her HOW TO DO THAT is really not very good advice, in my experience. And I am refering to an actual lesson, not talking swing theory on a forum.



    Meaning in your case, you may need to start tilting to your left side of torso RIGHT AWAY at the start of the backswing. Blended in the other two main pieces, of extension and rotation.



    Tilt Illusion is powerful! There used to be many heated debates in several different threads on this forum about this issue. Meaning most of the posters did not even understand that you are supposed to tilt left on the backswing. Because you can't "see it" - until you can.
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭
    ajax5184 wrote:


    Hi Jim,



    I got your e book and have been working on the tilt switch in transition. I am having trouble keeping my head from moving forward in the downswing and I think not getting enough right tilt on downswing is part of my issue. I think I about have it down, at least in slow motion. It seems to really simplify the downswing, by the time the switch is finished, the club is automatically almost back down to parallel with the ground. That is without actively doing anything other than a little bump forward and tilting. My issue/question is, what do I do from that point? It feels like the swing is almost over and I don't feel like I have built any speed. It feels virtually impossible to use my arms at that point, which is a good thing. If I just rotate hard through at that point, it looks good on video, but feels like I wouldn't be able to get it past the red tees. Am I missing something, or is this a common feeling for someone who is used to using arm action from the top?



    Thanks

    Adam




    Hi Adam - really good questions!



    Yes, the slight lateral bump and turn of the hip girdle along with the Tilt Switch and a bit of s girdle rotation is all it takes to get down to P6. IF you start from a good Top position with good Triangle arm pressures, of course.



    From P6 or a bit earlier you Pivot Thrust - you twist your body weight against the ground, ie from the ground up, your rotate and keep rightward tilting, both of those things will move your arms forward at a high rate of speed, IF you do that move quickly, ie the rotate and tilt. Kinetic chain dynamic starts a micro-second later as left knee starts to straighten and the Left Wall forms. This creates the Energy Wave that you can feel in your body, ie transfer of energy from leading to trailing segments down into your wrists, which then open up their angles at a high rate of speed, I call it "turbo boosting". Forearm rotation during Release is a second turbo booster.



    It does seem hard to believe that doing that from P6 will create enough CH speed, at least to ones "common sense". Very common to hear that from new students.
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭
    Think of getting better at golf as a process of acquiring new skills over a long period time. Playing well requires arriving on the first tee with a toolbox full of tools: golf swing tool, putting tool, short game tool, etc.



    But you cannot go out to "Golf Tools R Us" and buy them. You fashion them yourself - hopefully with the assistance of a good coach.



    But even that skill learning process requires tools that must come first. Meaning you need tools to enable you to manufacture the other tools.



    Mental focus and understanding Awareness are the two main "pre-tools".
  • ofortunaofortuna Members Posts: 406
    Jim, thanks so much for the recent series of "big picture" commentaries you've been posting. They've been helpful to coalesce the huge amount of information in this thread and your videos.



    I'd like to follow up with a question of my own regarding the tilt switch. First of all, I've always had a very flat shoulder plane on my backswing. Now that I've been getting more left bend blended into my backswing, I find that I have a lot more tilt to switch - a lot further distance down that my right shoulder has to travel. Now for the question: How much muscle power is involved in getting from left bend to right bend? Is it more akin to a dance move or a weighted situp?



    Also I remember in a skype lesson you saying that the right bend doesn't just happen suddenly at the start of the downswing but happens continuously to impact. Am I remembering correctly? Also beyond impact?



    Best regards

    O
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭
    ofortuna wrote:


    Jim, thanks so much for the recent series of "big picture" commentaries you've been posting. They've been helpful to coalesce the huge amount of information in this thread and your videos.



    I'd like to follow up with a question of my own regarding the tilt switch. First of all, I've always had a very flat shoulder plane on my backswing. Now that I've been getting more left bend blended into my backswing, I find that I have a lot more tilt to switch - a lot further distance down that my right shoulder has to travel. Now for the question: How much muscle power is involved in getting from left bend to right bend? Is it more akin to a dance move or a weighted situp?



    Also I remember in a skype lesson you saying that the right bend doesn't just happen suddenly at the start of the downswing but happens continuously to impact. Am I remembering correctly? Also beyond impact?



    Best regards

    O




    Hi O - not a lot of muscle power. Try the "I'm a little teacup" exercise. More like a dance move. Rightward tilt happens all the way to followthrough position where hands are around waist high on left side of your body, post-impact.
  • dog flogdog flog Members Posts: 1,364 ✭✭
    I like how Bobby Lopez emphasizes the importance of staying 'onsides.' The tip of the left shoulder must never be ahead of the ball by more than a hair at impact. The lunge or drift to the left is responsible for so many woes.
    Driver: Ping Anser 12°
    7 wood: Srixon Z 355 22°
    4 hybrid: Cleveland Classic 23°
    5 hybrid: Srixon Z355 26°
    6 hybrid: Cobra Fly-Z XL 28°
    Irons: Callaway X2Hot 7-A
    Wedges: Cleveland RTX cavity 52° 58°
    Putter: Ping Ketsch Cadence Heavy
  • dog flogdog flog Members Posts: 1,364 ✭✭
    I think this is where the idea of posting up comes in. As long as you don't move past the post with the upper body, you're good to go.
    Driver: Ping Anser 12°
    7 wood: Srixon Z 355 22°
    4 hybrid: Cleveland Classic 23°
    5 hybrid: Srixon Z355 26°
    6 hybrid: Cobra Fly-Z XL 28°
    Irons: Callaway X2Hot 7-A
    Wedges: Cleveland RTX cavity 52° 58°
    Putter: Ping Ketsch Cadence Heavy
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭
    D - it's the idea of the Left Wall, ie from left foot all the way up into your left armpit, there is a wall of

    resistance that prevents any lateral sway of your upper body toward the target during the Release segment.



    Torso still free to rotate over that left leg post, so you "turn the corner level left" (Hogan's term) over a stable

    left leg.
  • ofortunaofortuna Members Posts: 406
    If an individual has an issue with getting "offsides" like Mr Lopez calls it or lateral sway on the follow-through, could it be because of not enough reduction of forward flexion early enough? If you're reaching impact with open shoulders, then would that mean that you need to actually remove forward flexion before impact and replacing it with right bend. So it could feel like you're lifting up or intentionally standing up before impact for someone who has the habit of getting his head in front of the shot?



    Sorry to get into golf nerd talk again but this is still Golfwrx afterall image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

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