The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

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  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    PJ72 wrote:

    Wow - I am pretty amazed at all the great questions and feedback here today. Rather than try to reply to each poster individually, I will just try to answer some of the questions and issues brought forward in a simple way.



    First - the question of can one change the swing "instantly". The answer is certainly, for some golfers - no question. The method I have developed, and clear to me that Dan has developed a very similar teaching protocl, I have termed Deep Insight. It will result in immediate change to a person's golf swing, but only as Rok said, if certain things are already in place. Body awareness, mental focus and greater than average athletic ability are the three essentials for a supernova light bulb moment to immediately translate into a radical movement pattern change. This change demonstrates the power of the mind/brain to body connection.



    If you think of the golf swing as a 3D jigsaw puzzle, and that certain movement pattens are dominant habits that will repeat no matter what, and others are compensations that only repeat because of underlying pattens that have never been understood to even exist by the golfer, that are 100% unconscious, and that serve a purpose, which is to make just enough semi-solid contact to hit a "decent" golf shot by mid to high handicap standards (which one should never use as a standard IMO), then one approach is to remove the underlying cause for the compensatory pattern so that the swing becomes one of fewer moving parts, ie simpler to execute. That approach - again with the right student - is almost always very fast and to some extent permanent improvement. Will it last on the first tee of your club champiohship? I certainly cannot claim that it will in every person's case, since stress tends to interfere with tne new pattern, but it does greatly improve your odds of the change holding up. Reps over time will deal with that issue though for sure.



    Second, other patterns execute only in response to a mental image in the student's mind - either/or subconscious or conscious mind, although the subconcisous images are far more powerful - about what should happen in terms of power application, accuracy, impact and the use of the club, and basic mechanics. This is another reason why so many of my and Dan students are quickly changing their golf swings. When your understanding changes at a very deep level of the mind, your body motion instantly changes for the better.



    If you have a wandering mind, poor feel sense awareness for your body and club, poor fitness, or below average athletic ability - the this Deep Insight approach will not work nearly as well for you as for a golfer who has those four things. It will still help a lot, but the changes will take more time.
    This is brilliant Jim. You've just proven to me that this works, and you're the real deal.

    I've had that supernova already...just in a few days reading about it. I've cured my lack of arm extensive post impact, leading to poor release. Nothing has worked before for me...and this tilt switch cured it in 1 swing! Yes, 1 swing.



    The funny thing is, I've read through this first few pages of this thread a few times, and somehow i missed the tilt switch section. I haven't played golf for 12 months, and i vowed to rebuild my swing as i wasn't happy with it before. Went from 5hcp to 9hcp in 12hcp in 12 months and was climbing higher, to maybe 15/16hcp. And now I'm reading the thread again, it somehow sunk in this time.



    I'm wondering what other key thoughts i can learn next? Short game is my next weakness,so hoping for something mind blowing too!




    Great to hear about your breakthrough!



    Pretty normal to need to hear the same thing multiple times before finally achieving that "light bulb" moment.....I get that feedback all the time from students.



    My short game videos are done taping, now in editing process, first one will be out likely in April or May.
  • PJ72PJ72 Members Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jan 23, 2019 4:27pm #4323


    I have not talked much about the role of "axis tilt" and the Arm Swing Illusion but here is one way to understand their relationship. What brings the arms down to re-connect to the body? Is it 100% gravity drop? Is it momentum from the Pivot? Is it the arm muscles pulling the arms down? (NO!)



    In truth, it is a little bit of gravity drop, and a lot of momentum from Pivot rotation of hips, core and shoulder girdle. But it is also the fact that right lateral side bend or "axis tilt" both from upper lumbar area and mid-thoracic area of the spine MOVES THE ARMS CLOSER TO THE BODY. You can do this drill to prove it to yourself: go to the Top, on the Turned Shoulder Plane with your flat left wrist, and then shift your tailbone to your left a bit while you Tilt Switch from mid-back, ie go from 20 degrees left tilt to 10 degrees right tilt, and blend those two "tilts" with a little un-winding of your hips, core and shoulder girdle, not very much, just a bit. Try to keep your arms/hands/clubs back in their Top of backswing position. Most of you will be stunned when you see the tilts and rotation bring your hands/arms down into a perfect P6 position. The arms cannot stay up there at the Top. The pivot - and remember the tilts are part of the pivot - brings them down automatically. All of this "pull my arms down" to P6, or "pause at the Top and then throw my arms at the ball" or "time my gravity arm drop while I delay my pivot", is just stuff that comes about because of the Arm Swing Illusion controlling what one believes to be possible -and impossible. This is DOING NOTHING with the arms.




    Jim, i'm only about 20 pages in. I'm curious about the flat left wrist. Is this always the case?



    Actually, I edited that last bit out. I tried it again and i seem to be able to keep it flat, but getting the wrist **** is a little tricky at the same time.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • chigolfer1chigolfer1 Members Posts: 1,117 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    PJ72 wrote:



    I have not talked much about the role of "axis tilt" and the Arm Swing Illusion but here is one way to understand their relationship. What brings the arms down to re-connect to the body? Is it 100% gravity drop? Is it momentum from the Pivot? Is it the arm muscles pulling the arms down? (NO!)



    In truth, it is a little bit of gravity drop, and a lot of momentum from Pivot rotation of hips, core and shoulder girdle. But it is also the fact that right lateral side bend or "axis tilt" both from upper lumbar area and mid-thoracic area of the spine MOVES THE ARMS CLOSER TO THE BODY. You can do this drill to prove it to yourself: go to the Top, on the Turned Shoulder Plane with your flat left wrist, and then shift your tailbone to your left a bit while you Tilt Switch from mid-back, ie go from 20 degrees left tilt to 10 degrees right tilt, and blend those two "tilts" with a little un-winding of your hips, core and shoulder girdle, not very much, just a bit. Try to keep your arms/hands/clubs back in their Top of backswing position. Most of you will be stunned when you see the tilts and rotation bring your hands/arms down into a perfect P6 position. The arms cannot stay up there at the Top. The pivot - and remember the tilts are part of the pivot - brings them down automatically. All of this "pull my arms down" to P6, or "pause at the Top and then throw my arms at the ball" or "time my gravity arm drop while I delay my pivot", is just stuff that comes about because of the Arm Swing Illusion controlling what one believes to be possible -and impossible. This is DOING NOTHING with the arms.




    Jim, i'm only about 20 pages in. I'm curious about the flat left wrist. Is this always the case?



    Actually, I edited that last bit out. I tried it again and i seem to be able to keep it flat, but getting the wrist **** is a little tricky at the same time.




    This is a great nugget you found in the thread about the arms.



    Jim - do the arms EVER do anything as far as applying "independent force" so to speak? In other words, once you get to P6 can you think about applying force or should they always rag doll, for lack of a better term? Or, have I misinterpreted the post above being quoted?
  • PJ72PJ72 Members Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭✭✭✭






    Glad to hear this is helping, Duc - it ain't easy to "get this" piece of the Arm Illusion puzzle but it is a SuperNova size light bulb for many when you do. Especially any golfer in those two opposing camps, ie reverse pivoters vs upper swing center swayers. Explains why Steady Head fundamental has stood the test of time in golf.



    The BS is the easy part, forward swing much more difficult to see the tilt happen for most.



    Emotionally, the Tilt Switch is a really "scary" move to make for those who are not doing it at all or not nearly enough. It feels crazy wrong to my students who first attempt to learn it. If you are an early wrist **** releaser you will hit the ball so fat when Switching it will blow your mind...one reason that it is so vital to fix that issue. I often fix wrist **** throwaway issue precisely by having the student work on the Switch, but only if there wrists and elbows are in good shape, ie no tendonitis, since this move can be hard on those body parts until you stop throwing the wrist angle away.



    Tiger and Sergio are two of the tour pros who do the Switch really well.


    I assume this is the "lean"into the target we see in Sergio's transition?




    Not exactly sure what you mean by "lean", maybe you are seeing his upper center move a bit to the left, ie lateral left to re-establish his upper center stable axis of rotation point? Many tour pros do that move, ie return the sternum to their Address location, if they did the one to two inch or so move to the right on the backswing.



    Tilt right is just that - bending from mid-back to the right of the golfer. Same thing as left tilt - don't try to "see it" from a particular view in the golf swing. From caddie view you are only seeing about half the total tilt right that is really there in the downswing.


    I got you. So tilt left would happen kinda down toward the ball because of the pivot?




    Yeah, kind of - but that thought might very well induce a bad reverse pivot in some folks reading this, ie much more than 20 degrees of tilt. As a general coaching rule, I do not like to EVER use the ball as a reference point. I have worked with students with severe reverse pivots and for some of them this is a really, really tough thing to fix. The Illusion is so powerful that they keep doing 50 degrees of left tilt and hardly any core and torso rotation. The weird thing is - you can actually hit a short iron pretty well with that move and plenty long. Put a driver in their hand and a ball teed up, and watch out! I have seen those guys hit the ground 18 inches behind the ball and hard! And try scrubbing those white paint marks off the top of your shiny new driver head!



    Again - dont use ANY visual reference point to understand how to tilt left.




    Jim is all this stuff in one of your downloads? I want to invest in this and start learning the moves, one by one. Then get a lesson with you in UK.
  • biffstixbiffstix Members Posts: 183 ✭✭
    I’m 30 pages deep. DEEP. The fog is lifting. It’s comforting to know that the whole thread has not been derailed by trolls. This has been the most important info for me in a long time.
  • RohlioRohlio Members Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    biffstix wrote:


    I’m 30 pages deep. DEEP. The fog is lifting. It’s comforting to know that the whole thread has not been derailed by trolls. This has been the most important info for me in a long time.




    You have to treat the trolls as amusing diversions to be chuckled about allowing you time to digest the heavy info in between. Enjoy the thread, it changed my golf game forever.
    WITB:
    Driver: Ping G400 LST 8.5* Kuro Kage Silver TINI 70s
    FW: Ping G25 4 wood Kuro Kage Silver TINI 80s
    Utility: 20* King Forged Utility One Length C Taper Lite S
    Irons: King Forged One Length 4-PW C Taper Lite S
    Wedges: Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin 50, 54, 58
    Putter: Custom Directed Force Reno 2.0 48" 80* Lie Side Saddle
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    PJ72 wrote:



    I have not talked much about the role of "axis tilt" and the Arm Swing Illusion but here is one way to understand their relationship. What brings the arms down to re-connect to the body? Is it 100% gravity drop? Is it momentum from the Pivot? Is it the arm muscles pulling the arms down? (NO!)



    In truth, it is a little bit of gravity drop, and a lot of momentum from Pivot rotation of hips, core and shoulder girdle. But it is also the fact that right lateral side bend or "axis tilt" both from upper lumbar area and mid-thoracic area of the spine MOVES THE ARMS CLOSER TO THE BODY. You can do this drill to prove it to yourself: go to the Top, on the Turned Shoulder Plane with your flat left wrist, and then shift your tailbone to your left a bit while you Tilt Switch from mid-back, ie go from 20 degrees left tilt to 10 degrees right tilt, and blend those two "tilts" with a little un-winding of your hips, core and shoulder girdle, not very much, just a bit. Try to keep your arms/hands/clubs back in their Top of backswing position. Most of you will be stunned when you see the tilts and rotation bring your hands/arms down into a perfect P6 position. The arms cannot stay up there at the Top. The pivot - and remember the tilts are part of the pivot - brings them down automatically. All of this "pull my arms down" to P6, or "pause at the Top and then throw my arms at the ball" or "time my gravity arm drop while I delay my pivot", is just stuff that comes about because of the Arm Swing Illusion controlling what one believes to be possible -and impossible. This is DOING NOTHING with the arms.




    Jim, i'm only about 20 pages in. I'm curious about the flat left wrist. Is this always the case?



    Actually, I edited that last bit out. I tried it again and i seem to be able to keep it flat, but getting the wrist **** is a little tricky at the same time.




    Yes - you want to create the flat left wrist during takeaway by hinging backwards with right wrist. Blend in the c0cking motion as well.
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    chigolfer1 wrote:

    PJ72 wrote:



    I have not talked much about the role of "axis tilt" and the Arm Swing Illusion but here is one way to understand their relationship. What brings the arms down to re-connect to the body? Is it 100% gravity drop? Is it momentum from the Pivot? Is it the arm muscles pulling the arms down? (NO!)



    In truth, it is a little bit of gravity drop, and a lot of momentum from Pivot rotation of hips, core and shoulder girdle. But it is also the fact that right lateral side bend or "axis tilt" both from upper lumbar area and mid-thoracic area of the spine MOVES THE ARMS CLOSER TO THE BODY. You can do this drill to prove it to yourself: go to the Top, on the Turned Shoulder Plane with your flat left wrist, and then shift your tailbone to your left a bit while you Tilt Switch from mid-back, ie go from 20 degrees left tilt to 10 degrees right tilt, and blend those two "tilts" with a little un-winding of your hips, core and shoulder girdle, not very much, just a bit. Try to keep your arms/hands/clubs back in their Top of backswing position. Most of you will be stunned when you see the tilts and rotation bring your hands/arms down into a perfect P6 position. The arms cannot stay up there at the Top. The pivot - and remember the tilts are part of the pivot - brings them down automatically. All of this "pull my arms down" to P6, or "pause at the Top and then throw my arms at the ball" or "time my gravity arm drop while I delay my pivot", is just stuff that comes about because of the Arm Swing Illusion controlling what one believes to be possible -and impossible. This is DOING NOTHING with the arms.




    Jim, i'm only about 20 pages in. I'm curious about the flat left wrist. Is this always the case?



    Actually, I edited that last bit out. I tried it again and i seem to be able to keep it flat, but getting the wrist **** is a little tricky at the same time.




    This is a great nugget you found in the thread about the arms.



    Jim - do the arms EVER do anything as far as applying "independent force" so to speak? In other words, once you get to P6 can you think about applying force or should they always rag doll, for lack of a better term? Or, have I misinterpreted the post above being quoted?




    No - the arms have ZERO independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets from P6 to just after impact.



    Not a "rag doll" - arms are sides of the Triangle and are moving very fast by the Pivot but ONLY by the Pivot.
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Jim is all this stuff in one of your downloads? I want to invest in this and start learning the moves, one by one. Then get a lesson with you in UK.





    Module Four video on the Pivot covers Tilt Switch - along with a ton of other parts of the Pivot.
  • PJ72PJ72 Members Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Jim is all this stuff in one of your downloads? I want to invest in this and start learning the moves, one by one. Then get a lesson with you in UK.





    Module Four video on the Pivot covers Tilt Switch - along with a ton of other parts of the Pivot.
    I just bought you great shot ebook. There should be some coverage in there?
  • PJ72PJ72 Members Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    PJ72 wrote:



    I have not talked much about the role of "axis tilt" and the Arm Swing Illusion but here is one way to understand their relationship. What brings the arms down to re-connect to the body? Is it 100% gravity drop? Is it momentum from the Pivot? Is it the arm muscles pulling the arms down? (NO!)



    In truth, it is a little bit of gravity drop, and a lot of momentum from Pivot rotation of hips, core and shoulder girdle. But it is also the fact that right lateral side bend or "axis tilt" both from upper lumbar area and mid-thoracic area of the spine MOVES THE ARMS CLOSER TO THE BODY. You can do this drill to prove it to yourself: go to the Top, on the Turned Shoulder Plane with your flat left wrist, and then shift your tailbone to your left a bit while you Tilt Switch from mid-back, ie go from 20 degrees left tilt to 10 degrees right tilt, and blend those two "tilts" with a little un-winding of your hips, core and shoulder girdle, not very much, just a bit. Try to keep your arms/hands/clubs back in their Top of backswing position. Most of you will be stunned when you see the tilts and rotation bring your hands/arms down into a perfect P6 position. The arms cannot stay up there at the Top. The pivot - and remember the tilts are part of the pivot - brings them down automatically. All of this "pull my arms down" to P6, or "pause at the Top and then throw my arms at the ball" or "time my gravity arm drop while I delay my pivot", is just stuff that comes about because of the Arm Swing Illusion controlling what one believes to be possible -and impossible. This is DOING NOTHING with the arms.




    Jim, i'm only about 20 pages in. I'm curious about the flat left wrist. Is this always the case?



    Actually, I edited that last bit out. I tried it again and i seem to be able to keep it flat, but getting the wrist **** is a little tricky at the same time.




    Yes - you want to create the flat left wrist during takeaway by hinging backwards with right wrist. Blend in the c0cking motion as well.
    Love it Jim! I actually figured that out using mirror work. I've never hinged my wrists like that before....was always a touch across the line from cupping the left wrist and keeping the right one straight/flat. Another light bulb!
  • WpgMikeWpgMike Members Posts: 607 ✭✭
    I'm interested in getting started with this program but this webpage is confusing me. Some modules are numbers and some are letters - where do I start?



    https://balancepointgolf.com/index.php/pro-shop/golf-videos
    Driver: Wishon 919thi 11* w/AXE 6 stiff
    FW: Wishon 949mc 16.5* w/AXE FW Stiff
    3-4 Hybrids: Wishon 775hs w/ S2S White Stiff
    Irons: Miura CB-1008 w/Nippon Modus 105 S
    Putter: Ping Ketsch Heavy 34" 2 degrees flat
    Wedges: Cleveland RTX 2.0
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    WpgMike wrote:


    I'm interested in getting started with this program but this webpage is confusing me. Some modules are numbers and some are letters - where do I start?



    https://balancepoint...hop/golf-videos




    The Great Shot!: Mastering the Craft of Ballstriking video series is in a developmental sequence of learning the fundamentals of the golf swing. Some Modules have more than one video due to large number of fundamental elements in that category of golf swing learning.



    Where you start depends on your skill level: high handicaps and beginners start with Module One A.



    Advanced golfers might start with Module Four on Pivot or Five on Release.



    PM me with your golf history and average score and 7 iron and driver distance and greens in regulation stat and I will make a recommendation.
  • PJ72PJ72 Members Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Jim, can you recommend a module for chipping? I've struggled for a while with this.



    Also, do you have any schools in England this year?
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    PJ72 wrote:


    Jim, can you recommend a module for chipping? I've struggled for a while with this.



    Also, do you have any schools in England this year?




    London schools first week October is in the works, no details yet.



    My short game videos are in editing phase, should be out mid-summer.
  • smdykassmdykas Members Posts: 167 ✭✭✭
    Jim,



    I keep coming back to this method for my best ball striking. Thanks again.



    Will you be doing clinics ever in the michigan area?
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    smdykas wrote:


    Jim,



    I keep coming back to this method for my best ball striking. Thanks again.



    Will you be doing clinics ever in the michigan area?




    Sorry no schools in Michigan. I mainly work out of my home base in Portland, Oregon May through October.



    Winter months on Oahu, Spring in Palm Desert.



    Late September I will be in Dublin, Ireland and the following week in London.



    Planning stages right now for my third trip to Singapore in December.
  • airjammerairjammer Members Posts: 1,081 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Jim,



    Do you have experience people wanting to drop their arms behind them in the downswing will working on the “pushaway” because they feel they don’t have enough depth at the top? How do you suggest correcting this feeling?
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    airjammer wrote:


    Jim,



    Do you have experience people wanting to drop their arms behind them in the downswing will working on the "pushaway" because they feel they don't have enough depth at the top? How do you suggest correcting this feeling?




    If you mean "depth" with hand path, then yes. But depth with hand path is only half of it. Other half is creating a full range of motion with the chest rotation. Blend of both is what creates the proper amount of "depth".



    Pushaway if done correctly is on 45 degree angle to your rotating chest by end of takeaway.



    From there the hands move even farther away from torso mid-line starting around a 9 iron through driver(wedges should stay on the 45 degree left arm angle to the Top or nearly so) from Pivot momentum, IF your Pivot is correct and your arm Triangle pressures are correct.



    But some folks - especially those trying to implement this stuff without actual feedback from me - interpret this info incorrectly and apply it incorrectly, and push out way too much (more than 4 to 6" for average build golfers) and do not pushaway on the 45 angle but closer to 30 degrees and in that case you will not have enough depth.
  • ohakim82ohakim82 Members Posts: 7 ✭✭
    edited Mar 14, 2019 9:05pm #4341
    Picked up golf 8 months ago. Have been taking 1/2 hour weekly lessons at my local course, and have been happy with my progress thus far.



    Found this thread last Sunday and have been totally immersed since. Got the training manual and three of the videos. Have a standing desk at work and would say I literally have spent at least 4 hours everyday this week practicing and repeating the different motions and concepts at my desk/when I got back home, lol.



    Feel like my learning has been turbocharged, can visualize and feel the different moves my local pro has been showing me.



    Anyway, went to the range tonight and like many others ITT, was hitting alot of great strikes with all of my irons but inconsistent with my driver, woods and hybrids. Made a conscious effort not to exagerrate the woodchopping motion so much and results with the driver started to improve.



    But wasn't sure if I should also stop "chopping so much wood" with the irons given that the ball flight results were good?
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    ohakim82 wrote:


    Picked up golf 8 months ago. Have been taking 1/2 hour weekly lessons at my local course, and have been happy with my progress thus far.



    Found this thread last Sunday and have been totally immersed since. Got the training manual and three of the videos. Have a standing desk at work and would say I literally have spent at least 4 hours everyday this week practicing and repeating the different motions and concepts at my desk/when I got back home, lol.



    Feel like my learning has been turbocharged, can visualize and feel the different moves my local pro has been showing me.



    Anyway, went to the range tonight and like many others ITT, was hitting alot of great strikes with all of my irons but inconsistent with my driver, woods and hybrids. Made a conscious effort not to exagerrate the woodchopping motion so much and results with the driver started to improve.



    But wasn't sure if I should also stop "chopping so much wood" with the irons given that the ball flight results were good?




    Great to hear you are benefiting from the book and videos!



    The answer is that very likely you are taking the advice about wood-chopping too literally and overdoing it - most golfers in fact do overdo new instruction, very common.



    You can get away with that with the irons due to their steeper angle of attack - not so with the woods.



    You should tape yourself and see what precisely your body and club are doing in slow motion - then you will know.



    Blending the Levers release with the Pivot will result in an on plane or nearly so shaft during the downswing to followthrough.



    Focusing only on that one part of it, ie the Levers, is fine in the early stages of training. but for it to actually work well in your swing, you have to learn a functional Pivot and blend the two together. That takes a lot of time and patience!



    The notion of woodchopping is for beginners and high cappers who basically do not have hardly any "down" dimension in their forward swings. Their arms, right elbow angle and their wrists - the Levers in golf - release the angles in the toward the target or horizontal dimension. Wrist **** angle especially need to release down not sideways toward the ball or target.



    You need to blend the Pivot with the Levers properly to have a functional Release.



    Takes a clear mind, some slow mo mirror work, then some half speed swings, focusing on the feels, and some videotaping to see what your body and club are objectively doing. NOT hitting balls on the range! The danger of using ball flight results as feedback for beginners and high cappers is simply this - there are MANY variables in the swing that can cause a bad golf shot. You could do the one swing change you are intending perfectly and still cold shank the ball.....due to some other totally different fatal flaw.



    Most golfers will then abandon the swing change they started with, search the Internet for a different "answer", rinse and repeat.....



    Remember this rule: your mental intention to have your body implement a new swing change is not nearly enough, it's only the first tiny baby step on a long road to a functional golf swing. It's why I have consistently downplayed the role of swing theory in the real Process that is needed to actually get really good at ballstriking.
  • ohakim82ohakim82 Members Posts: 7 ✭✭
    edited Mar 15, 2019 10:04am #4343
    Thanks Jim! Have had three more Aha! moments just since going through the materials last night (grip was too tight contributing to exagerrated woodchop motion to release wrists, feet were not firmly planted resulting in too much hip turn preventing a nice coiling pivot, and was mechanically taking club back instead of "slinging" it back for a more fluid motion).



    What I love about your materials is that they are written/provided in a way that I feel like I can get meaningful learning and progress away from the course/driving range which is limited for all us non-professional/retired folks. And in fact that is how you strongly recommend we spend alot of our time learning!
  • ohakim82ohakim82 Members Posts: 7 ✭✭
    Failing to firmly plant feet not only resulted in too much hip turn, but also all kinds of unneccessary motion in the lower body, 1) destabilizing my swing 2) requiring extra subconscious thought to make small self correcting movements to "make sure I hit the ball" 3) which in turn made me ball bound, resulting in other problems.



    Love your teaching method Jim.
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    ohakim82 wrote:


    Thanks Jim! Have had three more Aha! moments just since going through the materials last night (grip was too tight contributing to exagerrated woodchop motion to release wrists, feet were not firmly planted resulting in too much hip turn preventing a nice coiling pivot, and was mechanically taking club back instead of "slinging" it back for a more fluid motion).



    What I love about your materials is that they are written/provided in a way that I feel like I can get meaningful learning and progress away from the course/driving range which is limited for all us non-professional/retired folks. And in fact that is how you strongly recommend we spend alot of our time learning!




    Exactly on your last point!



    For mid to high caps especially, the bulk of the practice takes place away from a ball in my program, about 75% of it actually.



    The other 25% is stuff you do need to do on the range striking a ball: all the mental focus stuff that involves learning to ignore the ball and ignoring impact and ignoring trying to "track" the clubhead through thinking, ie Steering Impulse, Hit Impulse, Scooping Impulse and Impact Help Out Impulse, Balance, Tempo, Rhythm, Release Timing, Path drills, face angle drills, and aim/alignment.



    Couple that stuff with a functionally sound golf swing mechanics - Pivot, Arm Motion, and Levers of right elbow and wrists and forearms - and you are gold!



    You do not need a golf ball at all to learn the proper Mechanics.



    I learned all of the "mechanics" of how to punch, block and kick as an 11 year old taking Japanese karate instruction from one of the best martial arts instructors in the world, and all of it was learned in slow motion and half speed away from an opponent/fighting situation. When I then graduated to "fighting" a fellow student, my mechanics worked flawlessly.



    The fact that the ball is stationary allows us to do this.



    Good mechanics allows you to not react to the ball and no need for any "hand-eye coordination".
  • ohakim82ohakim82 Members Posts: 7 ✭✭
    edited Mar 16, 2019 7:15pm #4346
    This thread and Jim's work helped me really understand the distinction between what we are doing with the wrist hinge (which we want to maintain at impact) and a wrist **** (which we want to let release downwards). Went to our practice hole today.



    Started chipping around the green, focusing on a hinged wrist and a small pivot. Then went about 60 yards out and focused on pitching with a hinged wrist, cocked wrist which I released, and my pivot. Then went in the middle about 30 yards out and started alternating between a pitch with just a hinged wrist (no cocking) and a pitch with a hinged wrist and a wrist **** to really help me feel the two distinct movements, and see how the wrist **** action affects the ball action.



    Was very cool and alot of fun.
  • ForeRiightForeRiight Members Posts: 10 ✭✭

    I've gone through 15 pages looking for videos of anyone, ANYONE performing a full swing after the light bulb "turned on" for them. I can find a lot of videos from Jim demonstrating a crucial 50% of the swing. Does he ever hit a ball? That's generally our goal, right? To hit the little white thing.

    I read a lot of anecdotes. And witness a lot of hostility and "you just don't get it" when challenged.

    Where are the results? Can anyone on here show me them hitting. a. golf. ball? I want to see the impact.

  • HogansHooverHogansHoover Members Posts: 22 ✭✭
    edited Apr 7, 2019 11:28am #4348

    Hi Jim

    I was reading about your posts on hit impulse etc and it got me thinking. Why don’t people accept that if they had an intent to hit the ball as hard as possible that their body mechanics are going to
    Change based on that intent?

    Indeed if someone does accept this premise, Would it be useful
    For them to analyse how their swing changes when they try to apply maximum power to the ball?

    If someone became much more armsy and less pivot driven with the intent of maximum power- would that highlight they had some misconceptions as to what power was?

  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @HogansHoover said:
    Hi Jim

    I was reading about your posts on hit impulse etc and it got me thinking. Why don’t people accept that if they had an intent to hit the ball as hard as possible that their body mechanics are going to
    Change based on that intent?

    Indeed if someone does accept this premise, Would it be useful
    For them to analyse how their swing changes when they try to apply maximum power to the ball?

    If someone became much more armsy and less pivot driven with the intent of maximum power- would that highlight they had some misconceptions as to what power was?

    For sure! You can video your swing when you feel that voice in your head yell "Kill it!" and see how much that intent creates an early wrist angles release, or a body lunge, or a too fast un-coiling of the chest with zero Tilt Switch (classic OTT), or a super disconnected armsy swipe of the lead arm across the chest well before impact.

    When you watch most high cappers Transition, you can clearly see how super armsy they are, with a massive Pivot Stall going along with that arm swiping motion.

  • smdykassmdykas Members Posts: 167 ✭✭✭

    @Jim Waldron said:
    chigolfer1 wrote:


    PJ72 wrote:


    Jim Waldron wrote:

    I have not talked much about the role of "axis tilt" and the Arm Swing Illusion but here is one way to understand their relationship. What brings the arms down to re-connect to the body? Is it 100% gravity drop? Is it momentum from the Pivot? Is it the arm muscles pulling the arms down? (NO!)

    In truth, it is a little bit of gravity drop, and a lot of momentum from Pivot rotation of hips, core and shoulder girdle. But it is also the fact that right lateral side bend or "axis tilt" both from upper lumbar area and mid-thoracic area of the spine MOVES THE ARMS CLOSER TO THE BODY. You can do this drill to prove it to yourself: go to the Top, on the Turned Shoulder Plane with your flat left wrist, and then shift your tailbone to your left a bit while you Tilt Switch from mid-back, ie go from 20 degrees left tilt to 10 degrees right tilt, and blend those two "tilts" with a little un-winding of your hips, core and shoulder girdle, not very much, just a bit. Try to keep your arms/hands/clubs back in their Top of backswing position. Most of you will be stunned when you see the tilts and rotation bring your hands/arms down into a perfect P6 position. The arms cannot stay up there at the Top. The pivot - and remember the tilts are part of the pivot - brings them down automatically. All of this "pull my arms down" to P6, or "pause at the Top and then throw my arms at the ball" or "time my gravity arm drop while I delay my pivot", is just stuff that comes about because of the Arm Swing Illusion controlling what one believes to be possible -and impossible. This is DOING NOTHING with the arms.

    Jim, i'm only about 20 pages in. I'm curious about the flat left wrist. Is this always the case?

    Actually, I edited that last bit out. I tried it again and i seem to be able to keep it flat, but getting the wrist **** is a little tricky at the same time.

    This is a great nugget you found in the thread about the arms.

    Jim - do the arms EVER do anything as far as applying "independent force" so to speak? In other words, once you get to P6 can you think about applying force or should they always rag doll, for lack of a better term? Or, have I misinterpreted the post above being quoted?

    No - the arms have ZERO independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets from P6 to just after impact.

    Not a "rag doll" - arms are sides of the Triangle and are moving very fast by the Pivot but ONLY by the Pivot.

    don't you have to fire your arms down as you pivot? From the shoulders? I have been practicing this all winter and that is something I am working on. Arms move up and hinge, then come back down as you pivot.

    It is amazing how different it feels.

  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @smdykas said:

    @Jim Waldron said:
    chigolfer1 wrote:


    PJ72 wrote:


    Jim Waldron wrote:

    I have not talked much about the role of "axis tilt" and the Arm Swing Illusion but here is one way to understand their relationship. What brings the arms down to re-connect to the body? Is it 100% gravity drop? Is it momentum from the Pivot? Is it the arm muscles pulling the arms down? (NO!)

    In truth, it is a little bit of gravity drop, and a lot of momentum from Pivot rotation of hips, core and shoulder girdle. But it is also the fact that right lateral side bend or "axis tilt" both from upper lumbar area and mid-thoracic area of the spine MOVES THE ARMS CLOSER TO THE BODY. You can do this drill to prove it to yourself: go to the Top, on the Turned Shoulder Plane with your flat left wrist, and then shift your tailbone to your left a bit while you Tilt Switch from mid-back, ie go from 20 degrees left tilt to 10 degrees right tilt, and blend those two "tilts" with a little un-winding of your hips, core and shoulder girdle, not very much, just a bit. Try to keep your arms/hands/clubs back in their Top of backswing position. Most of you will be stunned when you see the tilts and rotation bring your hands/arms down into a perfect P6 position. The arms cannot stay up there at the Top. The pivot - and remember the tilts are part of the pivot - brings them down automatically. All of this "pull my arms down" to P6, or "pause at the Top and then throw my arms at the ball" or "time my gravity arm drop while I delay my pivot", is just stuff that comes about because of the Arm Swing Illusion controlling what one believes to be possible -and impossible. This is DOING NOTHING with the arms.

    Jim, i'm only about 20 pages in. I'm curious about the flat left wrist. Is this always the case?

    Actually, I edited that last bit out. I tried it again and i seem to be able to keep it flat, but getting the wrist **** is a little tricky at the same time.

    This is a great nugget you found in the thread about the arms.

    Jim - do the arms EVER do anything as far as applying "independent force" so to speak? In other words, once you get to P6 can you think about applying force or should they always rag doll, for lack of a better term? Or, have I misinterpreted the post above being quoted?

    No - the arms have ZERO independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets from P6 to just after impact.

    Not a "rag doll" - arms are sides of the Triangle and are moving very fast by the Pivot but ONLY by the Pivot.

    don't you have to fire your arms down as you pivot? From the shoulders? I have been practicing this all winter and that is something I am working on. Arms move up and hinge, then come back down as you pivot.

    It is amazing how different it feels.

    Like all swing theory it all depends precisely what you mean by "fire the arms ".
    If you mean using independent arm muscles moving the arms then - no.
    Shoulder girdle tilting and un-coiling moves the arms down out and forward in Transition as I stated.
    I would never tell an average golfer especially to do anything with the arm muscles to move the arms as they are already doing that way, way too much - its a massive and very common flaw.

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