The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

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  • smdykassmdykas Members Posts: 167 ✭✭✭

    @Jim Waldron said:

    @smdykas said:

    @Jim Waldron said:
    chigolfer1 wrote:


    PJ72 wrote:


    Jim Waldron wrote:

    I have not talked much about the role of "axis tilt" and the Arm Swing Illusion but here is one way to understand their relationship. What brings the arms down to re-connect to the body? Is it 100% gravity drop? Is it momentum from the Pivot? Is it the arm muscles pulling the arms down? (NO!)

    In truth, it is a little bit of gravity drop, and a lot of momentum from Pivot rotation of hips, core and shoulder girdle. But it is also the fact that right lateral side bend or "axis tilt" both from upper lumbar area and mid-thoracic area of the spine MOVES THE ARMS CLOSER TO THE BODY. You can do this drill to prove it to yourself: go to the Top, on the Turned Shoulder Plane with your flat left wrist, and then shift your tailbone to your left a bit while you Tilt Switch from mid-back, ie go from 20 degrees left tilt to 10 degrees right tilt, and blend those two "tilts" with a little un-winding of your hips, core and shoulder girdle, not very much, just a bit. Try to keep your arms/hands/clubs back in their Top of backswing position. Most of you will be stunned when you see the tilts and rotation bring your hands/arms down into a perfect P6 position. The arms cannot stay up there at the Top. The pivot - and remember the tilts are part of the pivot - brings them down automatically. All of this "pull my arms down" to P6, or "pause at the Top and then throw my arms at the ball" or "time my gravity arm drop while I delay my pivot", is just stuff that comes about because of the Arm Swing Illusion controlling what one believes to be possible -and impossible. This is DOING NOTHING with the arms.

    Jim, i'm only about 20 pages in. I'm curious about the flat left wrist. Is this always the case?

    Actually, I edited that last bit out. I tried it again and i seem to be able to keep it flat, but getting the wrist **** is a little tricky at the same time.

    This is a great nugget you found in the thread about the arms.

    Jim - do the arms EVER do anything as far as applying "independent force" so to speak? In other words, once you get to P6 can you think about applying force or should they always rag doll, for lack of a better term? Or, have I misinterpreted the post above being quoted?

    No - the arms have ZERO independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets from P6 to just after impact.

    Not a "rag doll" - arms are sides of the Triangle and are moving very fast by the Pivot but ONLY by the Pivot.

    don't you have to fire your arms down as you pivot? From the shoulders? I have been practicing this all winter and that is something I am working on. Arms move up and hinge, then come back down as you pivot.

    It is amazing how different it feels.

    Like all swing theory it all depends precisely what you mean by "fire the arms ".
    If you mean using independent arm muscles moving the arms then - no.
    Shoulder girdle tilting and un-coiling moves the arms down out and forward in Transition as I stated.
    I would never tell an average golfer especially to do anything with the arm muscles to move the arms as they are already doing that way, way too much - its a massive and very common flaw.

    did not mean the independent firing of arm muscles. If anything, it feels like arms are more passive.

    I think we are saying the same thing. I may not fully understand your term "shoulder girdle tilting" but I have a feeling like I am uncoiling while trying to split wood with an axe. No hit impulse, no turning of forearms. I would have never understood this move if not for your ASI work.

    What module in your teaching could I get to better understand the move of the DS to impact?

  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @smdykas said:

    @Jim Waldron said:

    @smdykas said:

    @Jim Waldron said:
    chigolfer1 wrote:


    PJ72 wrote:


    Jim Waldron wrote:

    I have not talked much about the role of "axis tilt" and the Arm Swing Illusion but here is one way to understand their relationship. What brings the arms down to re-connect to the body? Is it 100% gravity drop? Is it momentum from the Pivot? Is it the arm muscles pulling the arms down? (NO!)

    In truth, it is a little bit of gravity drop, and a lot of momentum from Pivot rotation of hips, core and shoulder girdle. But it is also the fact that right lateral side bend or "axis tilt" both from upper lumbar area and mid-thoracic area of the spine MOVES THE ARMS CLOSER TO THE BODY. You can do this drill to prove it to yourself: go to the Top, on the Turned Shoulder Plane with your flat left wrist, and then shift your tailbone to your left a bit while you Tilt Switch from mid-back, ie go from 20 degrees left tilt to 10 degrees right tilt, and blend those two "tilts" with a little un-winding of your hips, core and shoulder girdle, not very much, just a bit. Try to keep your arms/hands/clubs back in their Top of backswing position. Most of you will be stunned when you see the tilts and rotation bring your hands/arms down into a perfect P6 position. The arms cannot stay up there at the Top. The pivot - and remember the tilts are part of the pivot - brings them down automatically. All of this "pull my arms down" to P6, or "pause at the Top and then throw my arms at the ball" or "time my gravity arm drop while I delay my pivot", is just stuff that comes about because of the Arm Swing Illusion controlling what one believes to be possible -and impossible. This is DOING NOTHING with the arms.

    Jim, i'm only about 20 pages in. I'm curious about the flat left wrist. Is this always the case?

    Actually, I edited that last bit out. I tried it again and i seem to be able to keep it flat, but getting the wrist **** is a little tricky at the same time.

    This is a great nugget you found in the thread about the arms.

    Jim - do the arms EVER do anything as far as applying "independent force" so to speak? In other words, once you get to P6 can you think about applying force or should they always rag doll, for lack of a better term? Or, have I misinterpreted the post above being quoted?

    No - the arms have ZERO independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets from P6 to just after impact.

    Not a "rag doll" - arms are sides of the Triangle and are moving very fast by the Pivot but ONLY by the Pivot.

    don't you have to fire your arms down as you pivot? From the shoulders? I have been practicing this all winter and that is something I am working on. Arms move up and hinge, then come back down as you pivot.

    It is amazing how different it feels.

    Like all swing theory it all depends precisely what you mean by "fire the arms ".
    If you mean using independent arm muscles moving the arms then - no.
    Shoulder girdle tilting and un-coiling moves the arms down out and forward in Transition as I stated.
    I would never tell an average golfer especially to do anything with the arm muscles to move the arms as they are already doing that way, way too much - its a massive and very common flaw.

    did not mean the independent firing of arm muscles. If anything, it feels like arms are more passive.

    I think we are saying the same thing. I may not fully understand your term "shoulder girdle tilting" but I have a feeling like I am uncoiling while trying to split wood with an axe. No hit impulse, no turning of forearms. I would have never understood this move if not for your ASI work.

    What module in your teaching could I get to better understand the move of the DS to impact?

    Good to know my concepts are helping!

    Module Four on Pivot and Five on The Levers and Release.

    When you use the term "firing" it means active contraction of the muscles to move a bone, hence my response.

    Most readers would interpret that phrase as active moving of the arms with the arm muscles.

    "Tilting" refers to the right side bend of the torso/s girdle that happens on the forward swing starting with Tilt Switch during Transition.

  • smdykassmdykas Members Posts: 167 ✭✭✭

    @Jim Waldron said:

    @smdykas said:

    @Jim Waldron said:

    @smdykas said:

    @Jim Waldron said:
    chigolfer1 wrote:


    PJ72 wrote:


    Jim Waldron wrote:

    I have not talked much about the role of "axis tilt" and the Arm Swing Illusion but here is one way to understand their relationship. What brings the arms down to re-connect to the body? Is it 100% gravity drop? Is it momentum from the Pivot? Is it the arm muscles pulling the arms down? (NO!)

    In truth, it is a little bit of gravity drop, and a lot of momentum from Pivot rotation of hips, core and shoulder girdle. But it is also the fact that right lateral side bend or "axis tilt" both from upper lumbar area and mid-thoracic area of the spine MOVES THE ARMS CLOSER TO THE BODY. You can do this drill to prove it to yourself: go to the Top, on the Turned Shoulder Plane with your flat left wrist, and then shift your tailbone to your left a bit while you Tilt Switch from mid-back, ie go from 20 degrees left tilt to 10 degrees right tilt, and blend those two "tilts" with a little un-winding of your hips, core and shoulder girdle, not very much, just a bit. Try to keep your arms/hands/clubs back in their Top of backswing position. Most of you will be stunned when you see the tilts and rotation bring your hands/arms down into a perfect P6 position. The arms cannot stay up there at the Top. The pivot - and remember the tilts are part of the pivot - brings them down automatically. All of this "pull my arms down" to P6, or "pause at the Top and then throw my arms at the ball" or "time my gravity arm drop while I delay my pivot", is just stuff that comes about because of the Arm Swing Illusion controlling what one believes to be possible -and impossible. This is DOING NOTHING with the arms.

    Jim, i'm only about 20 pages in. I'm curious about the flat left wrist. Is this always the case?

    Actually, I edited that last bit out. I tried it again and i seem to be able to keep it flat, but getting the wrist **** is a little tricky at the same time.

    This is a great nugget you found in the thread about the arms.

    Jim - do the arms EVER do anything as far as applying "independent force" so to speak? In other words, once you get to P6 can you think about applying force or should they always rag doll, for lack of a better term? Or, have I misinterpreted the post above being quoted?

    No - the arms have ZERO independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets from P6 to just after impact.

    Not a "rag doll" - arms are sides of the Triangle and are moving very fast by the Pivot but ONLY by the Pivot.

    don't you have to fire your arms down as you pivot? From the shoulders? I have been practicing this all winter and that is something I am working on. Arms move up and hinge, then come back down as you pivot.

    It is amazing how different it feels.

    Like all swing theory it all depends precisely what you mean by "fire the arms ".
    If you mean using independent arm muscles moving the arms then - no.
    Shoulder girdle tilting and un-coiling moves the arms down out and forward in Transition as I stated.
    I would never tell an average golfer especially to do anything with the arm muscles to move the arms as they are already doing that way, way too much - its a massive and very common flaw.

    did not mean the independent firing of arm muscles. If anything, it feels like arms are more passive.

    I think we are saying the same thing. I may not fully understand your term "shoulder girdle tilting" but I have a feeling like I am uncoiling while trying to split wood with an axe. No hit impulse, no turning of forearms. I would have never understood this move if not for your ASI work.

    What module in your teaching could I get to better understand the move of the DS to impact?

    Good to know my concepts are helping!

    Module Four on Pivot and Five on The Levers and Release.

    When you use the term "firing" it means active contraction of the muscles to move a bone, hence my response.

    Most readers would interpret that phrase as active moving of the arms with the arm muscles.

    "Tilting" refers to the right side bend of the torso/s girdle that happens on the forward swing starting with Tilt Switch during Transition.

    I just discovered the difference last night. I really focused on the tilt switch, and hit so much better. The feeling was moving the hips forward, and turning them. It feels so strange. I guess I haven't gotten rid of the hit impulse yet. But I could not argue the results. No more pull draws/hooks.

    I will do more research and work on module 4.

  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @smdykas said:

    @Jim Waldron said:

    @smdykas said:

    @Jim Waldron said:

    @smdykas said:

    @Jim Waldron said:
    chigolfer1 wrote:


    PJ72 wrote:


    Jim Waldron wrote:

    I have not talked much about the role of "axis tilt" and the Arm Swing Illusion but here is one way to understand their relationship. What brings the arms down to re-connect to the body? Is it 100% gravity drop? Is it momentum from the Pivot? Is it the arm muscles pulling the arms down? (NO!)

    In truth, it is a little bit of gravity drop, and a lot of momentum from Pivot rotation of hips, core and shoulder girdle. But it is also the fact that right lateral side bend or "axis tilt" both from upper lumbar area and mid-thoracic area of the spine MOVES THE ARMS CLOSER TO THE BODY. You can do this drill to prove it to yourself: go to the Top, on the Turned Shoulder Plane with your flat left wrist, and then shift your tailbone to your left a bit while you Tilt Switch from mid-back, ie go from 20 degrees left tilt to 10 degrees right tilt, and blend those two "tilts" with a little un-winding of your hips, core and shoulder girdle, not very much, just a bit. Try to keep your arms/hands/clubs back in their Top of backswing position. Most of you will be stunned when you see the tilts and rotation bring your hands/arms down into a perfect P6 position. The arms cannot stay up there at the Top. The pivot - and remember the tilts are part of the pivot - brings them down automatically. All of this "pull my arms down" to P6, or "pause at the Top and then throw my arms at the ball" or "time my gravity arm drop while I delay my pivot", is just stuff that comes about because of the Arm Swing Illusion controlling what one believes to be possible -and impossible. This is DOING NOTHING with the arms.

    Jim, i'm only about 20 pages in. I'm curious about the flat left wrist. Is this always the case?

    Actually, I edited that last bit out. I tried it again and i seem to be able to keep it flat, but getting the wrist **** is a little tricky at the same time.

    This is a great nugget you found in the thread about the arms.

    Jim - do the arms EVER do anything as far as applying "independent force" so to speak? In other words, once you get to P6 can you think about applying force or should they always rag doll, for lack of a better term? Or, have I misinterpreted the post above being quoted?

    No - the arms have ZERO independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets from P6 to just after impact.

    Not a "rag doll" - arms are sides of the Triangle and are moving very fast by the Pivot but ONLY by the Pivot.

    don't you have to fire your arms down as you pivot? From the shoulders? I have been practicing this all winter and that is something I am working on. Arms move up and hinge, then come back down as you pivot.

    It is amazing how different it feels.

    Like all swing theory it all depends precisely what you mean by "fire the arms ".
    If you mean using independent arm muscles moving the arms then - no.
    Shoulder girdle tilting and un-coiling moves the arms down out and forward in Transition as I stated.
    I would never tell an average golfer especially to do anything with the arm muscles to move the arms as they are already doing that way, way too much - its a massive and very common flaw.

    did not mean the independent firing of arm muscles. If anything, it feels like arms are more passive.

    I think we are saying the same thing. I may not fully understand your term "shoulder girdle tilting" but I have a feeling like I am uncoiling while trying to split wood with an axe. No hit impulse, no turning of forearms. I would have never understood this move if not for your ASI work.

    What module in your teaching could I get to better understand the move of the DS to impact?

    Good to know my concepts are helping!

    Module Four on Pivot and Five on The Levers and Release.

    When you use the term "firing" it means active contraction of the muscles to move a bone, hence my response.

    Most readers would interpret that phrase as active moving of the arms with the arm muscles.

    "Tilting" refers to the right side bend of the torso/s girdle that happens on the forward swing starting with Tilt Switch during Transition.

    I just discovered the difference last night. I really focused on the tilt switch, and hit so much better. The feeling was moving the hips forward, and turning them. It feels so strange. I guess I haven't gotten rid of the hit impulse yet. But I could not argue the results. No more pull draws/hooks.

    I will do more research and work on module 4.

    Yeah - using your core and big muscles of the Pivot to power your forward swing is a radical paradigm shift for almost all of my students who achieve it. Takes the smaller "manipulation" muscles of the arms out of the motion and makes it simpler, fewer moving parts, and thus easier to repeat.

    Very counter-intuitive though!
    Which is one reason it is almost impossible to stumble across on your own.....

  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I have had quite a few requests lately for additional comments about the ASI and the kind of practical application I deal with everyday on the lesson tee with students new to the concept. Basically what are the most common mis-conceptions about the ASI ( and there are many!).
    Here are the main ones.

    1. the concept that the ASI is a "swing method" or "swing model" is widespread. It's just not either of those things.
      I do have my own "ideal" or "model" golf swing theory that I use as a starting point in my teaching, and the ASI concept is just one of several important parts of that model. ASI is not a Magic Move, not even close. It's really not a "move" at all, but just a concept that helps folks understand why and how they struggle so much with learning an effective swing. Basically you could say that ASI is just the breakthrough revelation that makes it easier to start to see the golf swing from a 3D point of view.

    2.The ASI applies only to the backswing. Not even close to being accurate. Actually the ASI is far more important on the forward swing, ie has more radical implications on the forward swing than on the backswing. The most important of those is the concept of "Super-Connection" (one of Hogan's "secrets" that Tom Weiskopf shared with me at Pebble Beach PGA tournament in 1977) which is that from P6 to just after impact all independent sideways motion of the upper arms in the shoulder sockets comes to a complete stop. Which means that the delivery of the clubhead into the back of the ball is achieved primarily through the Pivot, ie the turning and tilting motion of the torso.

    1. The ASI has the most influence on the golf swing and shot in Waldron's view. Again - not even close to being accurate.
      I believe that Balance has the most influence overall on the quality of your golf shot, with Setup being close behind.

    2. The shaft plane in Waldron's swing model is "steep" or "upright" like a Jim Furyk swing, our "outside the plane".
      Wrong! As I have stated many times in this mega-thread. This is one of most common mis-conceptions. I teach an on plane shaft as the ideal in the golf swing, but also believe that the preferred error of the two - inside vs outside - is certainly a little to the outside. Which most PGA tour pros in fact do historically. Does not mean you cannot be slightly inside the plane and hit it great, of course you can. But for average weekend golfers with limited practice time, the inside miss is more toxic and tough to recover from, ie being "stuck" than from being a bit outside.

    3. "The 45 degree arm pushaway angle is to the target line" - absolute rubbish. The 45 degree angle is to your moving/rotating chest - NOT the target line. Meaning you have to blend that very slight pushaway of 4-8" with your chest rotating. Some of that 4-8" of arm motion is due to Pivot momentum, so I always emphasize how tiny that little bit of independent arm motion is to new students. The hard part that takes some reps time is the blending of the two motions, along with a third piece, setting the proper wrist angles. Like rubbing your tummy and patting your head. The problem is Human Nature impels us to want to do just one move and not three blended together. That search for the one Magic Move drives a lot of golf instruction marketing. The truth is the golf swing is a coordinated motion of several Big Pieces and until and unless you are willing to face that fact, you will continue to struggle.

  • FormerBigDaddyFormerBigDaddy Members Posts: 110 ✭✭✭

    @Jim Waldron said:
    I have had quite a few requests lately for additional comments about the ASI and the kind of practical application I deal with everyday on the lesson tee with students new to the concept. Basically what are the most common mis-conceptions about the ASI ( and there are many!).
    Here are the main ones.

    1. the concept that the ASI is a "swing method" or "swing model" is widespread. It's just not either of those things.
      I do have my own "ideal" or "model" golf swing theory that I use as a starting point in my teaching, and the ASI concept is just one of several important parts of that model. ASI is not a Magic Move, not even close. It's really not a "move" at all, but just a concept that helps folks understand why and how they struggle so much with learning an effective swing. Basically you could say that ASI is just the breakthrough revelation that makes it easier to start to see the golf swing from a 3D point of view.

    2.The ASI applies only to the backswing. Not even close to being accurate. Actually the ASI is far more important on the forward swing, ie has more radical implications on the forward swing than on the backswing. The most important of those is the concept of "Super-Connection" (one of Hogan's "secrets" that Tom Weiskopf shared with me at Pebble Beach PGA tournament in 1977) which is that from P6 to just after impact all independent sideways motion of the upper arms in the shoulder sockets comes to a complete stop. Which means that the delivery of the clubhead into the back of the ball is achieved primarily through the Pivot, ie the turning and tilting motion of the torso.

    1. The ASI has the most influence on the golf swing and shot in Waldron's view. Again - not even close to being accurate.
      I believe that Balance has the most influence overall on the quality of your golf shot, with Setup being close behind.

    2. The shaft plane in Waldron's swing model is "steep" or "upright" like a Jim Furyk swing, our "outside the plane".
      Wrong! As I have stated many times in this mega-thread. This is one of most common mis-conceptions. I teach an on plane shaft as the ideal in the golf swing, but also believe that the preferred error of the two - inside vs outside - is certainly a little to the outside. Which most PGA tour pros in fact do historically. Does not mean you cannot be slightly inside the plane and hit it great, of course you can. But for average weekend golfers with limited practice time, the inside miss is more toxic and tough to recover from, ie being "stuck" than from being a bit outside.

    3. "The 45 degree arm pushaway angle is to the target line" - absolute rubbish. The 45 degree angle is to your moving/rotating chest - NOT the target line. Meaning you have to blend that very slight pushaway of 4-8" with your chest rotating. Some of that 4-8" of arm motion is due to Pivot momentum, so I always emphasize how tiny that little bit of independent arm motion is to new students. The hard part that takes some reps time is the blending of the two motions, along with a third piece, setting the proper wrist angles. Like rubbing your tummy and patting your head. The problem is Human Nature impels us to want to do just one move and not three blended together. That search for the one Magic Move drives a lot of golf instruction marketing. The truth is the golf swing is a coordinated motion of several Big Pieces and until and unless you are willing to face that fact, you will continue to struggle.

    Enjoying reading through this thread. Thank you for the info... I've read about a concept like this that broke down the swing into 2 separate movements with the arms being more up and down in front of the body and it probably generated through you.

    One thing that seems to help me is drilling these 2 movements separately at first to get a feel for where my hands should finish at the top. Not sure if this is ever something you teach but it seems to help me blend the movements together when taking a real swing. Kind of like getting a sense of where hands are at point A (setup) and where they've got to get to at point B (at the end of backswing), and then finding the shortest path between the 2 points. Before doing this i felt like it was difficult to find the correct blending you describe. Too much lift, not enough lift, etc.

    Basically in the drill i pivot completely, hips/torso only, without moving my arms or hands in any way. Once my back is toward the target I lift my left arm as high and in front of my torso/chest as possible while allowing my right elbow to hinge but not really lift. Sort of like a one piece takeaway but much more exaggerated since i turn completely without letting my arms or hands move and then lifting left arm.

    Again not sure if you teach this drill or have a better one but it helps me feel where my hands should be at the top and definitely keeps them in front of my body. I have struggled for a long with with taking it inside then up which i believe causes a wicked chain of events to follow. Namely getting very steep and early extension of lower body and spine. I'm excited to keep reading and learn more. I think this could be a game changer.

  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes - that is indeed a drill we use in our golf schools!
    And there a few different variations. One way is to Pivot to the Top with arms x-crossed on your chest. Then simply extend your arms to proper Top position from there toward right side of your chest in the classic "waiter's tray" position with right elbow at a 75-90 degree angle and wrists fully c0cked and a flat left wrist.

    Another is to do the arm part first ie the 6" pushaway on a 45 degree angle to your chest without ANY Pivot, then fold right elbow angle and let the left arm raise up about 8-12" and set the wrist angles....pause...then Pivot to the Top while arms stay '"frozen" in their pre-set position you established.

    I call these kinds of drills "Swing Map" drills, ie they are meant mainly to create a new insight into how the proper swing works. Not really a "reps" kind of drill, but just helps to clarify your mental picture for what is correct vs incorrect.

    Here is an older version from 2008:

    And three more:

  • ZizzerZizzer Members Posts: 19 ✭✭

    Jim, super post. There are now training aid products which one can use to see that you say is absolutely the case

  • ZizzerZizzer Members Posts: 19 ✭✭

    Jim would be interested in your comments on two or three related matters. First, to those of us who know the Golfing Machine it seems your pushaway has to put the club above (and not pointed at) the target line.
    This connects up to issues of plane and whether and is so how much to flatten the COM on the down swing. How does ASI connect up here?
    Second, back swing sequence may not be the secret of golf but .... Any thoughts or drills for those of us who turn out hips early, but fully, and there end up restricting our shoulder turn to less than the ideal (90) or even the barely acceptable (75)
    This is a nice video on your pushaway
    If the budget said only one of your videos on the ASI, which one?

  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zizzer said:
    Jim would be interested in your comments on two or three related matters. First, to those of us who know the Golfing Machine it seems your pushaway has to put the club above (and not pointed at) the target line.
    This connects up to issues of plane and whether and is so how much to flatten the COM on the down swing. How does ASI connect up here?
    Second, back swing sequence may not be the secret of golf but .... Any thoughts or drills for those of us who turn out hips early, but fully, and there end up restricting our shoulder turn to less than the ideal (90) or even the barely acceptable (75)
    This is a nice video on your pushaway
    If the budget said only one of your videos on the ASI, which one?

    We offer only one video on the ASI, Module Two is over two hours dedicated entirely to understanding the illusion and how to remove it from your Swing Map.

    The video you posted is from 22 years ago, ie not current and not in line entirely with my understanding of the asi today.
    Get the new Module Two video is you wish to truly understand the asi.

    No on your Golfing Machine plane question. Nothing about the pushaway creates a steeper than ideal plane of the shaft.
    Quite the opposite! Only would do that if the blend of the pushaway with pivot and wrist c0cking was done poorly, ie too much or too early or too close to mid-line of torso with the lead arm to chest angle would create an above the ideal shaft plane motion. Anyone who sees the arm pushaway creating a steep shaft plane angle is thinking in 2D and not seeing through the illusion.

    I teach a slight shaft flattening on Transition in two ways: natural shaft flattening happens (about 10 degrees) from lateral tailbone/hip shift and Tilt Switch; advanced shaft flattening from external rotation of right upper arm and movement of right elbow toward torso mid-line and bowing of lead wrist.
    Not sure I understand your backswing question, but sounds like just an issue of poor body awareness.
    When it comes to actual application of swing theory to a real live human being, what matters most in terms of successful application is the golfers ability to connect mind-brain to body so that your mental intention has a chance to actually change your body motion.

    That means having some degree of objective feel based awareness for what your body is actually doing.

  • ZizzerZizzer Members Posts: 19 ✭✭

    Jim, Thank you very much for a prompt and early reply. Headed to your store! Golfingly yours, Zizzer

  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Seems like more than the usual number of questions lately about which format I recommend for folks unable to actually make it out to Portland, Oahu or Palm Springs to work with me in person.
    I offer three options, and I am listing them here in order of effectiveness.

    1. take an online real time lesson via webcam. You send me swing video in advance for me to analyze and then we go over my conclusions and recommended drills in the webcam lesson. This is far and away the most effective of the three options. The main reason is that it is actual real instruction geared toward you as the student and not just swing theory or swing "ideals". Theory is great and you need some as a starting point but the really important thing is to know a. which part of the swing model do I as the golf student need to focus on today and in the next month or so of training in order to make a real difference in my game, both short term and long term? And the simple truth is this - the average golfer has no clue as to which parts of the swing model to start with! How could he? That takes a ton of experience and expertise and is a large part of why you are paying a teacher in the first place. And b. how do I as the golf student actually "apply" that swing theory so that my body successfully learns to the level of dominant habit the proper movement pattern? That also takes some experience and expertise. Most of my new students have no idea how to go about the process of actually making that swing change. And just "thinking" about the swing change is not even going to come close to helping you achieve that change, in fact, "thinking" about moving body parts tends to make you flinch and is NOT helpful. But in today's world of golf instruction, "thinking" about that swing change is the default position for 99% of golfers. That is a huge mistake!

    2. My video program devoted to mastering the craft of ballstriking is the next best option. A lot of my online students use the video information as a supplement to the actual instruction, which is the way I recommend using the video. But I also designed the video program to be a step-by-step format for self-directed learning for those golfers who prefer to do it all by themselves. The video is obviously way more information than just reading text on a page like in any book, which is why video is always going to be superior to a book. If you are a beginner or a high handicapper, start with the first video in the series and go through all 13 videos to the end. PM me for my recommendations which will be based on your current ballstriking skill level.

    3. My 205 page e-book devoted to the model golf swing. For golfers who are swing theory junkies, or for any golfer interested in getting the entire package of my model golf swing information in a more affordable format, or for golfers who prefer to start with a strong intellectual foundation in theory, this a good option.

  • NoTalentLeftyNoTalentLefty Members Posts: 3,552 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I've been looking at your stuff now for a few years. One thing I feel by pushing the club away during the swing is the sensation of being freer to keep my right arm straighter during the swing. (Left hander). It makes me feel young again. Won't be able to do more until I get a new hip. Like your teaching.

    Livin' proof that Lefties are not naturally talented.

    Driver Callaway Epic Flash 10.5 set to 9.5
    3 and 5 Wood Ping G15
    3-5 Hybrids Cobra Baffler XL
    6-GW Titleist AP1s
    53 degree Wedge Titleist AP1
    58 degree SW Vokey SM6
    Putter White Hot V LINE Fang w/round Edel Grip
  • HertsjoatmonHertsjoatmon A in golf theory, D- in golf practical HertfordshireMembers Posts: 241 ✭✭✭

    Love this thread. Only about 10 pages in as I struggle for time to read this due to running 2 jobs at the moment (day job and own business), but this seems to be the final piece of the puzzle for me. I had worked a lot over the last year on each aspect of my swing, take away, transition, impact position etc, to try and get a good swing plane and repeatable results. However, I hadn't realised how "armsey" I was on my follow through though, pulling them across my body. Now that I focus on just pulling my arms up after impact rather than up and left, my ball flight is better, contact is more consistent and I can focus more on my rotation. Had a quick 9 hole par 3 round at the weekend and have never hit the ball more accurately or consistently.

    10.5 - Driver - Callaway GBB (animal style) - Speeder 665 R  @ 44.5" [long T]
    16 - Mini Dr - Bertha Mini 1.5 - Motore 70 R @ 42.5" [safe T]
    24 - 5 iron - Ping G crossover - Alta 75 R @ 39" [short safe T] / [long fade shots]

    20 - Fairway - Big Bertha - Kuru Kage Silver 70 R @ 41" - D2
    25 - Hybrid - Big Bertha OS - Kuru Kage Silver 80 R 39" D1.5
    7-PW - Taylormade M CGB - Ping AWT 2.0 R - D1-2
    48/53/58/64 - wedges - Ping G / Ping Eye 2+ / Cleveland Smart Sole 3.0 s / Callaway Sure Out - AWT 2.0 W shafts
    Odyssey O’Works 2 Ball fang - currently choosing a ball to suit the new irons – Sun Mountain Combo Cart / Bag
    90-95mph Driver swing speed (up 5-10mph from last year)

  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @NoTalentLefty said:
    I've been looking at your stuff now for a few years. One thing I feel by pushing the club away during the swing is the sensation of being freer to keep my right arm straighter during the swing. (Left hander). It makes me feel young again. Won't be able to do more until I get a new hip. Like your teaching.

    Thanks! Yes the pushaway puts a stretch pressure on the lead arm which helps with maintaining the proper radius of the swing ,ie distance from left shoulder center to the clubhead.

  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Hertsjoatmon said:
    Love this thread. Only about 10 pages in as I struggle for time to read this due to running 2 jobs at the moment (day job and own business), but this seems to be the final piece of the puzzle for me. I had worked a lot over the last year on each aspect of my swing, take away, transition, impact position etc, to try and get a good swing plane and repeatable results. However, I hadn't realised how "armsey" I was on my follow through though, pulling them across my body. Now that I focus on just pulling my arms up after impact rather than up and left, my ball flight is better, contact is more consistent and I can focus more on my rotation. Had a quick 9 hole par 3 round at the weekend and have never hit the ball more accurately or consistently.

    Thanks for your feedback!
    In the swing model I advocate, you never do anything with your arm muscles to move the arms during the forward swing.

    The arms move through 3D space due to forces placed on them from a proper Pivot.

    Hands go left in a vortex shaped arc right after impact: left or "in" and "up".

    All from forces of the Pivot.

  • NoTalentLeftyNoTalentLefty Members Posts: 3,552 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Jim Waldron said:

    @NoTalentLefty said:
    I've been looking at your stuff now for a few years. One thing I feel by pushing the club away during the swing is the sensation of being freer to keep my right arm straighter during the swing. (Left hander). It makes me feel young again. Won't be able to do more until I get a new hip. Like your teaching.

    Thanks! Yes the pushaway puts a stretch pressure on the lead arm which helps with maintaining the proper radius of the swing ,ie distance from left shoulder center to the clubhead.

    Sir,
    It looks obvious on the LPGA tour may be for the slower cadence. Do or did you find that as well?
    I

    Livin' proof that Lefties are not naturally talented.

    Driver Callaway Epic Flash 10.5 set to 9.5
    3 and 5 Wood Ping G15
    3-5 Hybrids Cobra Baffler XL
    6-GW Titleist AP1s
    53 degree Wedge Titleist AP1
    58 degree SW Vokey SM6
    Putter White Hot V LINE Fang w/round Edel Grip
  • Golf_GoofGolf_Goof Members Posts: 14 ✭✭

    @GungHoGolf said:
    Super-relevant Gears 3D analysis of lead shoulder adduction angle and depth at top of pro driver swing:

    I've read the majority of the thread but skipped from about page 90-140, as it tended to be rather repetitive.
    Namely, folks challenging the prevailing wisdom and being met with the familiar refrain "read the thread - you just don't get it".
    Personally, I've tried the drills described and had some lightbulb moments, but I'm quite sketpical of a lot of golf instruction to be honest, for the primary reason that it is product sales, after all.
    That said, I recognize all the time and effort displayed by JW here and clearly the majority of feedback here is positive and folks have seen genuine improvement.

    A bit curious though why the video quoted here from #4195 wasn't discussed. It appears there is at least some arm across the chest at the top of backswing.

  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I have had a lot of questions lately about the short game, power and mental game videos that are in production.
    Mental game videos target release date is July 15 for the first of three 2.5 hour videos. Then the Power Swing/Driver distance video for end of August. Short game videos later in the Fall, likely around mid October.
    I do not offer a video that deals with that most difficult of all golfing problems - the Yips. The reason is simple - it is not possible to self-cure the yips via a video or book. It takes real-time coaching - preferably in person with me if you have severe yips.

  • true8true8 Members Posts: 25 ✭✭

    Didn't read through the entire thread and was searching through youtube for videos. Does anyone have good videos for the down swing and how to begin it?

  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @true8 said:
    Didn't read through the entire thread and was searching through youtube for videos. Does anyone have good videos for the down swing and how to begin it?

    My Module Four on the Pivot covers that issue, along with Module Six.

  • trileriantrilerian Members Posts: 409 ✭✭✭✭

    Hello Jim,
    A few years ago, I started looking into your swing ideas, I even bought the Great Shot Manual. At some point however, I went back to the “throwing the arms across the chest” style swing. Due to my lead knee having issues with my current swing, I am looking at other options again. I was experimenting on the range the other day and was making some swings that reminded me of the feels I had while trying to learn some of your swing ideas. The swing was easier on my knee, which is what I am after, but as it seems is the case every time I make a swing change, I started leaving the club face slightly open. Which generally leads me back to my old swing, super strong grip and swinging across my chest. But on the positive side, distance at least seems comparable to my old swing, and I am pretty sure that is with me not being quite as efficient as I can be due to tension in my arms.
    Anyway, what I would really like to know, can I pursue this swing concept without worrying so much about the exact angles? The search for the perfect golf swing has become exhausting for me. I need a swing right now that I can stop thinking about. I just want to turn away from the target with my arms going up, then turn towards the target with my arms going down then up in a free wheel type state, albeit, I would like some consistency and the shot shape I desire. This seems the easiest on my body and mind.
    With that said, do you think I can get along with your swing ideas, or do I need continue my search?

    Thanks Jim

  • PJ72PJ72 Members Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Jim, i've been working on your swing theory over the last few weeks. I seem to be getting a good takeaway with flat left wrist at the top. And also can initiate the downswing with the shoulder tilt (in slow motion at least). However, i'm hitting weak, slicey, spinny shots and losing a lot of distance. I'm pretty certain i'm cutting across the ball. The only way i can stop this is if i completely abandon the flat left wrist/wrist mechanism that i've been learning and play for a huge hook. That straightens me out, with a touch of draw, but my follow through is a bit chicken wingy and still fairly weak shots.
    Also, i seem to have to try and hammer the ball - the 'new' swing with the flat left wrist seems like there's no power in it. But i've read that the feeling should be of effortless power.
    Another thing is that my practice swings are beautifully smooth and free flowing yet i dont get that feeling with my proper swing with a ball. I'm pretty certain that i am ball bound to some degree.

    Sorry theres a lot to digest there. I'd like to get a swing lesson from you via skype, can you give me details? Thanks Jim.

  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @trilerian said:
    Hello Jim,
    A few years ago, I started looking into your swing ideas, I even bought the Great Shot Manual. At some point however, I went back to the “throwing the arms across the chest” style swing. Due to my lead knee having issues with my current swing, I am looking at other options again. I was experimenting on the range the other day and was making some swings that reminded me of the feels I had while trying to learn some of your swing ideas. The swing was easier on my knee, which is what I am after, but as it seems is the case every time I make a swing change, I started leaving the club face slightly open. Which generally leads me back to my old swing, super strong grip and swinging across my chest. But on the positive side, distance at least seems comparable to my old swing, and I am pretty sure that is with me not being quite as efficient as I can be due to tension in my arms.
    Anyway, what I would really like to know, can I pursue this swing concept without worrying so much about the exact angles? The search for the perfect golf swing has become exhausting for me. I need a swing right now that I can stop thinking about. I just want to turn away from the target with my arms going up, then turn towards the target with my arms going down then up in a free wheel type state, albeit, I would like some consistency and the shot shape I desire. This seems the easiest on my body and mind.
    With that said, do you think I can get along with your swing ideas, or do I need continue my search?

    Thanks Jim

    I always make the same answer to these kinds of questions - you need a lesson! As I have said from day one on this thread, the track record of golfers using self-directed "searching" "try this, try that" trial and error golf swing learning based mainly on ball flight results and pure swing theory is almost always doomed to fail.
    You need clarity about the swing theory which you can only get from a dialog with a good teacher, and then you need feedback about what objectively your body and club motion are actually doing, which also takes the experienced eye of a good teacher.
    I would love to answer your questions directly but only way to do that is for me to see and study your swing on video, talk to you about your goals, time for practice, etc ie stuff that can only happen in a lesson context.

  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @PJ72 said:
    Jim, i've been working on your swing theory over the last few weeks. I seem to be getting a good takeaway with flat left wrist at the top. And also can initiate the downswing with the shoulder tilt (in slow motion at least). However, i'm hitting weak, slicey, spinny shots and losing a lot of distance. I'm pretty certain i'm cutting across the ball. The only way i can stop this is if i completely abandon the flat left wrist/wrist mechanism that i've been learning and play for a huge hook. That straightens me out, with a touch of draw, but my follow through is a bit chicken wingy and still fairly weak shots.
    Also, i seem to have to try and hammer the ball - the 'new' swing with the flat left wrist seems like there's no power in it. But i've read that the feeling should be of effortless power.
    Another thing is that my practice swings are beautifully smooth and free flowing yet i dont get that feeling with my proper swing with a ball. I'm pretty certain that i am ball bound to some degree.

    Sorry theres a lot to digest there. I'd like to get a swing lesson from you via skype, can you give me details? Thanks Jim.

    Yeah, exactly right, only way to answer those questions is a lesson as my previous post explained.
    Webcam lessons are explained in detail at our site www.balancepointgolf.com. I use Hangouts mainly, for webcam. You send me a video of your swing to study prior to meeting live on the webcam, then we go over my results together in the lesson. We can see each other and I can show you the corrective drills and exercises and some of the model swing theory. PM or email me if you would like to register for the lesson.

  • DFinchDFinch Members Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Saw you out there working at Quail Valley on Thursday doing a 1 on 1. Didn't want to interrupt your lesson to say hello. I'm sure I'll see you again since I'm marshalling there now and recently retired. Good to see you back in Portland!

    Titleist TS3 8.75* Evenflow White / Cobra F6 3W 15.5* / Cobra F6 Baffler 18.5* / Maltby TS2 DG105 X100 / Taylormade Hi-Toe 54*/60* / Evnroll ER8 Gravity Grip / Snell MTB X
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @DFinch said:
    Saw you out there working at Quail Valley on Thursday doing a 1 on 1. Didn't want to interrupt your lesson to say hello. I'm sure I'll see you again since I'm marshalling there now and recently retired. Good to see you back in Portland!

    Thanks, D!
    Feel free to stop by to say hello anytime.
    That day was I was working with a new student suffering from short game yips.

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