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The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

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  • Tanner25Tanner25 Members  6735WRX Points: 331Posts: 6,735 Titanium Tees
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    What is your downswing thought w/ the ASI. The backswing is easier to comprehend. Hands/arms out at 45 degree w/ turn. Downswing?

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  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors  3254WRX Points: 188Posts: 3,254 Titanium Tees
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    ASI is not a "swing thought", which I never recommend golfers to use in any case. It's a reality that all good players show in their swing to some extent.

    It means understanding the proper relationship of arm swing to Pivot, and how to attain the proper lead arm to chest angle during the backswing so as to avoid the two extreme flaws of being too much "behind" the body or "stuck" or too much "in front" or too close to torso mid-line. Also a great introduction to understanding the golf swing as an athletic motion that happens in 3D space, as opposed to the dominant view in golf swing theory traditionally as 2D.

    2D view of the swing is full of optical illusions - ASI is just one of them - that create a false understanding of what the body is doing in a pro quality swing.

    Understanding ASI also will indirectly help golfers shift from an upper arm dominant swing motion to a Pivot dominant motion, which has many benefits, especially consistency of striking the ball solidly in the middle of the face, since Pivot based swing has way fewer moving parts, and way less "slack" in the body motion than arm dominant swing.

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  • TheDeanAbidesTheDeanAbides Members  138WRX Points: 44Posts: 138 Fairways
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    Having now read many, many pages of this thread, I can safely say that this is the missing link for me. I've always struggled to stop my arm getting inside too early and overswinging, but this has changed that. ASI and the RPM concept have both given me the control and simplicity I have always craved in my swing. It's early days yet with these feels, but I'm confident that this is far more than a flash in a pan.

    Jim, thank you so much for your time, efforts and patience with the people who can't/won't understand the utter simplicity of this illusion.

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  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors  3254WRX Points: 188Posts: 3,254 Titanium Tees
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    Your welcome, Dean. I agree - its pretty simple when you are able to see through the illusion, and very complicated when you cannot do that.


    Glad to hear the concept has helped your swing and ball striking!

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  • bassman1308bassman1308 Members  201WRX Points: 83Posts: 201 Fairways
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    Jim,, Thanks for your time and expertise. Very informative and sounds like you have helped many golfers. I try to imagine an extended line from the the target THRU the ball. I take the club head away on a line SLIGHTLY to the inside of that line. And then up. It works well IF I make a good shoulder turn. I have always felt doing this cuts down on my wrist/hand rotation in the hitting zone, making for less FLIPPING and a straighter/more accurate shot. Is my takeaway Approach similar to what you teach, just explained different

    JC

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  • bassman1308bassman1308 Members  201WRX Points: 83Posts: 201 Fairways
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  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors  3254WRX Points: 188Posts: 3,254 Titanium Tees
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    Hard to say without seeing a video of your swing. Words are not very good at transmitting body movement pattern information accurately.


    I can say this: in the swing model that I teach, the clubhead arcs slightly to the inside of the target line right at the moment of takeaway or very shortly after the start.


    Blending the arm push away properly with the pivot - rotation of core, hips and torso along with left side bend - and with wrist c0cking and hinging properly allows the shaft to track back on same plane angle as Setup during takeaway segment of the swing.

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  • indianagolf2indianagolf2 Members  201WRX Points: 37Posts: 201 Fairways
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    Take an online lesson with jim

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  • TheDeanAbidesTheDeanAbides Members  138WRX Points: 44Posts: 138 Fairways
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    Further adventures in a post illusion world: I've always had a more pivot driven swing, but can get handsy when I'm tired and don't feel able to rotate through (I have a health condition).

    The issue was always not seeing the illusion and having a tendency to get a bit deep in the backswing which led to a bit of an OTT pull.

    Now that I can see and understand the illusion I have so much more room. The work I'm doing now with my backswing is to fully integrate that tiny bit of conscious movement that's required of the arm unit with my torso rotation. On the downswing I simply pretend that my arms have disappeared and I just rotate back through. Not looking at the ball REALLY helps with this too.

    It's like going back to my best ballstriking days but with a very clear feeling/visualisation of where I need to get to going back in order to make the downswing as simple as I've always liked it to be.

    Thanks again, Jim.

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  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors  3254WRX Points: 188Posts: 3,254 Titanium Tees
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    Yeah, the "space" that opens up in front of your torso when the arms behave correctly is amazing. No more getting in your own way!

    I teach ZERO active arm motion on the forward swing, as you describe. It does NOT mean "slow arms" , it means not doing anything with arm muscles to move the arms independently of the pivot, in the toward the ball and/or target direction. Rotation of upper arms in the sockets is a good thing though.

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  • TheDeanAbidesTheDeanAbides Members  138WRX Points: 44Posts: 138 Fairways
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    Your comment, "It does NOT mean "slow arms"" is crucial. It brings to mind the overhead slomo shot of Hogan in the studio. The arms are moving at exactly the same speed as the torso is rotating. There's your RPM visual.

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  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors  3254WRX Points: 188Posts: 3,254 Titanium Tees
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    I always try to make it very clear what the term "passive arms" means because it has gotten a lot of attention the past few years on the Internet, and most folks get the concept wrong. You want "fast arms" but "fast arms" that are in sync with the Pivot. The upper arm to shoulder joint is the most flexible major joint in the human body. Random motion in that joint, and motion in the toward the target direction which is most common wrong use of the arms in the forward swing, will almost always result in poor ball/clubface contact.

    It is one of the primary reasons for inconsistent ball striking for mid to high handicap golfers.

    There is some RPM speed variation in Transition between arms and torso, as arms have to come back "down, out and forward" a bit, and that means in the shoulder socket, but from P6 to just after impact, the upper arms achieve "Super-Connection" which means upper arms/s girdle are indeed moving same RPM speed.

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  • TheDeanAbidesTheDeanAbides Members  138WRX Points: 44Posts: 138 Fairways
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    My head is nodding along to this as I read, Jim. Let me know if you ever venture across the pond to the UK. I'd love to go to a school.

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  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors  3254WRX Points: 188Posts: 3,254 Titanium Tees
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    I had a London school on the schedule for this October but had to cancel due to the pandemic. Hopefully next year it will happen.

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  • JeselnikJeselnik Members  27WRX Points: 10Posts: 27 Bunkers
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    How are you teaching straightening of the right arm, or is it just along for the ride?


    Jese

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  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors  3254WRX Points: 188Posts: 3,254 Titanium Tees
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    Pivot momentum with a tiny assist from gravity straightens right arm, along with left arm moving down and out and forward independently of Pivot. Reverse of backswing basically. Right elbow folding raises left arm in backswing.

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