Tinkering with Hogan's swing

So I went to the range tonight with the intention of duplicating Hogan's swing. It was much more difficult than I expected.

The hardest part was just trying to get into the same position as Hogan at the top of the swing. My idea that that if I cannot get into that position then I have no shot of coming anywhere close to what he was doing.

In my observation of Hogan's swing, I noticed that he is very shallow at the top where the left arm does not really go over the right shoulder much at the top. So, I tried to do some shallow swings and found that I had an extremely hard time getting the shaft below my shoulders at the top.

Like this:

After some tinkering around, I found that if I dipped the club down at the top of the swing I could get it into a slot very similar to Hogan. It's actually very hard to see at full speed.

By the way, I'm not suggesting that this move is some sort of "Secret", it's just something that helped me get into the top of the swing like Ben.

I'll admit that my driving of the hips is nowhere hear Hogan's, but I was able to replicate the basic concept of his swing.

Sorry the videos are so blurry. My cameras auto focus just couldnt get it right. I did not post the video of me hitting balls with this swing because for some reason I just could not do the same thing as the practice swings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feeq6cvDtks

Here is another video of the same swings but much slower. You can see the dipping of the club much easier here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqvXtL65yPI

Here is a video of my regular swing so you can see how much different it is at the top.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVzpD5lN3O0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVzpD5lN3O0[/url]

[quote name='Steve Ryan' timestamp='1370329877' post='7165636']
So I went to the range tonight with the intention of duplicating Hogan's swing. It was much more difficult than I expected.

[/quote]

There's something very, very funny about his post - it's got similar vibes to Ben Hogan Project posts. Don't mean to poke fun - it's just that in this forum in particular - saying that you went to the range to "duplicate Ben Hogan's swing" will probably get a big chuckle...

anyway, the reason you're able to shallow out your swing is because your looping it back to the inside. There have been some greats that played this way, Trevino for one. It isn't Hogan, and it's difficult to be consistent using this method unless you practice a ton, IMO, but you are at the very least thinking the right away.

I like focus on what the proper motion feels like - I've made huge strides that way:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqnWf4CvSQE[/media]

I could bore you with a bunch of terminology and buzz words, but they would almost certainly go right over your head. The best thing I can do for you is point out that your "real" swing and in your "Hogan copy" swing - there should be a huge difference in how it feels - so ask yourself: what feels different about what you're experimenting with now, compared to your usual motion?

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1370359660' post='7167408']

anyway, the reason you're able to shallow out your swing is because your looping it back to the inside. There have been some greats that played this way, Trevino for one. It isn't Hogan, and it's difficult to be consistent using this method unless you practice a ton, IMO, but you are at the very least thinking the right away.

[/quote]

I just don't see any other way of getting it into the same position as him without looping it. The video you posted actually looks pretty similar to how I swing my 3 wood. At the top the position is very much like mine and very much unlike Hogan. It's just too upright. Hogan has the club practically laying across his shoulder blades when he's at the top. Not an easy position to get into. Maybe bowing the left wrist at address might help.

Was fun trying and will give it another go when I get a chance. It was funny though because after messing around with this swing I went back to my old swing for a few balls and had a mini disaster for the first 3 or 4 balls. Thin shanks!! I guess that's what I get for trying to copy someone elses swing.

[quote name='Steve Ryan' timestamp='1370365203' post='7168066']
[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1370359660' post='7167408']

anyway, the reason you're able to shallow out your swing is because your looping it back to the inside. There have been some greats that played this way, Trevino for one. It isn't Hogan, and it's difficult to be consistent using this method unless you practice a ton, IMO, but you are at the very least thinking the right away.

[/quote]

I just don't see any other way of getting it into the same position as him without looping it. The video you posted actually looks pretty similar to how I swing my 3 wood. At the top the position is very much like mine and very much unlike Hogan. It's just too upright. Hogan has the club practically laying across his shoulder blades when he's at the top. Not an easy position to get into. Maybe bowing the left wrist at address might help.

Was fun trying and will give it another go when I get a chance. It was funny though because after messing around with this swing I went back to my old swing for a few balls and had a mini disaster for the first 3 or 4 balls. Thin shanks!! I guess that's what I get for trying to copy someone elses swing.
[/quote]

Steve ..stick with that loop feel. It looks so much better.. The hogan move is / or may be impossible for some of us, due to age/ body style/ abilities...etc,, anyone can do the loop. And you did it efficiently... I know tons of local great players that do the loop. And they rarely practice...

[quote name='Steve Ryan' timestamp='1370365203' post='7168066']
I just don't see any other way of getting it into the same position as him without looping it. The video you posted actually looks pretty similar to how I swing my 3 wood. At the top the position is very much like mine and very much unlike Hogan. It's just too upright. Hogan has the club practically laying across his shoulder blades when he's at the top. Not an easy position to get into. Maybe bowing the left wrist at address might help.

Was fun trying and will give it another go when I get a chance. It was funny though because after messing around with this swing I went back to my old swing for a few balls and had a mini disaster for the first 3 or 4 balls. Thin shanks!! I guess that's what I get for trying to copy someone elses swing.
[/quote]

Nobody looks just like Hogan...

The thing to keep in mind is that the holy grail of golf is returning to the shaft line that you had at address...Mickey Wright had the best swing of all time - according to Hogan and many others - and she, along with other greats like Sam Snead, went beyond the shoulder line, albeit it slightly above. The key is that they passed through the same position Hogan did at on the backswing and again on the downswing, not to mention they returned the shaft to the position they had it address. That I have accomplished, and I can tell you it is very difficult to do with a loop.

See for yourself:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB11_Vwkqm8[/media]

@ 2:41


In any case I agree with Chris, don't go away from the loop if you want to improve - your current swing has a very limited ceiling. Swallow your pride and take two steps back, and you will take one giant step forward at some point. The fact that Ben Hogan appeals to you is very telling - in a good way. Anyway, feel free to disregard my advice but remember you posted your swing soliciting opinions - and that's all I'm giving you - no facts in this game except your own. Good luck.

I went to the range during my lunch break and hit a few more balls with the loop. It just feels so unnatural and awkward for me. Did not hit it well.

I'm gonna go back to the range tonight and see if I can figure out another way to get into Hogan's position without having to loop it. My set up will need to be changed for sure as I try to get to that point and back to the ball all on the same plane.

[quote name='Steve Ryan' timestamp='1370376278' post='7169242']
I went to the range during my lunch break and hit a few more balls with the loop. It just feels so unnatural and awkward for me. Did not hit it well.

I'm gonna go back to the range tonight and see if I can figure out another way to get into Hogan's position without having to loop it. My set up will need to be changed for sure as I try to get to that point and back to the ball all on the same plane.
[/quote]

Man, so happy you decided to keep going. A few pointers in the event that they help:

- it's going to feel really weird because it's completely diff than what you've been doing. Ultimately, awkward feel, and the a correct feel are not mutually exclusive - specially at first.
- the fact that you're coming in on a diff plane def means your ball position will change, your angle of attack, etc - so you wouldn't hit it well, almost by definition - not at first anyway.
- I think (and many great golfers) believe that practicing on a net is best while you tweak your fundamentals because you don't focus on the ball. Once you like the positions you're getting into and once they start to feel a little more natural - you can always play around with the ball position, setup etc to get a reliable ball flight. Personally, I can admit that I had too much vanity to let people see me shank and slice away every time I made changes. A net at home frees you of all that nonsense that creeps into our heads.

Stay patient and enjoy the exploration phase Steve.

All I can say is IMO Hogan didn't do the loop or layoff by dipping the hands. The hands actually shifted out or "OTT". Just IMO though, no intent to change your life at all...lol

[quote name='jblacoustics' timestamp='1370400115' post='7171636']
All I can say is IMO Hogan didn't do the loop or layoff by dipping the hands. The hands actually shifted out or "OTT". Just IMO though, no intent to change your life at all...lol
[/quote]

I agree. Wasn't able to make it to the range tonight and mess around with it, but I think it might help to use a wide take away to get into that position. I think the whole key to this is finding a comfortable and natural way to get the club in the correct position at the top.

Having performed that move for nearly 40 years now myself, I'd give anything to come over the top of it. What I see you doing is cutting your shoulder turn short on the backswing and lifting the club to the top. Compare your shoulder turn to Mr. Hogan's. I say that as someone who struggles with that exact issue. I could be wrong about this, but I bet your stock shot is a baby draw and your misses are pull hooks or blocks....That said, keep up the hard work. There is nothing more enjoyable than digging out of the dirt yourself at the range. Good luck.

[quote name='Steve Ryan' timestamp='1370405023' post='7172104']
[quote name='jblacoustics' timestamp='1370400115' post='7171636']
All I can say is IMO Hogan didn't do the loop or layoff by dipping the hands. The hands actually shifted out or "OTT". Just IMO though, no intent to change your life at all...lol
[/quote]

I agree. Wasn't able to make it to the range tonight and mess around with it, but I think it might help to use a wide take away to get into that position. I think the whole key to this is finding a comfortable and natural way to get the club in the correct position at the top.
[/quote]

BS must be inside to get the hand path more in enough compared to your transition shifting out hand path.

Okay, here is my new swing. Was sittin around the house last night and I was thinking that it would be better to open the face up all the way on the backswing to help get into a better position at the top. Boy was I right!

This new swing is very similar to my old one, but it is much more accurate and the ball flight is just beautiful. Hitting the best looking fades of my life with fantastic trajectory.

Basically all I'm doing is fanning the face on the way back and addressing with a slightly open face. If you notice, I am now returning my wrists back to the position they were in at address! I marked the spot where my wrist and head are at address and paused it at impact. I'm back in the same position.

What I'm not doing is clearing my hips out of the way. I might be initiating the down swing with my upper body....not sure. Anyway, it's a great swing and I'm very happy with the shot shape. To draw, I just strengthen my right hand a bit and close the face at address. Makes a great draw. Straight shots are a bit hard to hit. Now my plan is to work on accuracy and hip rotation.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEhzr8CVG8Q"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEhzr8CVG8Q [/url]

[quote name='Steve Ryan' timestamp='1370583948' post='7187190']
Okay, here is my new swing. Was sittin around the house last night and I was thinking that it would be better to open the face up all the way on the backswing to help get into a better position at the top. Boy was I right!

This new swing is very similar to my old one, but it is much more accurate and the ball flight is just beautiful. Hitting the best looking fades of my life with fantastic trajectory.

Basically all I'm doing is fanning the face on the way back and addressing with a slightly open face. If you notice, I am now returning my wrists back to the position they were in at address! I marked the spot where my wrist and head are at address and paused it at impact. I'm back in the same position.

What I'm not doing is clearing my hips out of the way. I might be initiating the down swing with my upper body....not sure. Anyway, it's a great swing and I'm very happy with the shot shape. To draw, I just strengthen my right hand a bit and close the face at address. Makes a great draw. Straight shots are a bit hard to hit. Now my plan is to work on accuracy and hip rotation.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEhzr8CVG8Q[/media]
[/quote]
Keep in mind, that without the loop, you are no longer attacking from the inside. Of course you can play with this swing, and quite nicely, but if you're really looking to improve I'd practice with a driver - hardest club in the bag and so any flaws will become obvious.

I agree that your next step has to be to get your lower body involved as well, but before that I'd focus on getting the hands behind you. The difference in feel between the loop swing and this swing should be obvious, but it can also be seen on video - the hands fall behind you in your "Hogan" swing but they are always in front of you in the video above.

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1370618033' post='7189062']
Keep in mind, that without the loop, you are no longer attacking from the inside. Of course you can play with this swing, and quite nicely, but if you're really looking to improve I'd practice with a driver - hardest club in the bag and so any flaws will become obvious.

I agree that your next step has to be to get your lower body involved as well, but before that I'd focus on getting the hands behind you. The difference in feel between the loop swing and this swing should be obvious, but it can also be seen on video - the hands fall behind you in your "Hogan" swing but they are always in front of you in the video above.
[/quote]

Good points about the hands. Maybe if I tuck the right elbow into my side a bit more I can get my hands more behind me.

One thing I forgot to mention is that I took a few swings into the Callaway simulator before hitting any balls on the range. We tested my old swing vs. my new swing and the angle of attack was 3*- 4* less with the new swing. My old swing has an attack angle of 7* - 8*. The new swing was coming in at 4* - 5*. They guy said that for a 6 iron you don't really want to get it any lower than 4*. I'm definitely headed in the right direction.

Learned a little something while checking out this guys swing video. He's taking an incredible swipe at the ball, but more than that, if you notice he is not taking a very long back-swing. It's almost like he's taking it back to a 3/4 position and then cocking (Not cupping!) the wrist at the end of it before the downswing. Without a doubt, Hogan was doing this as I have observed it many times on video.

This guys position at the top is just like Hogan. Gonna give it a try when I get to the range sometime within the next few days.

Very impressive swing this guy has. Check it out.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTiyTR3xCJM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTiyTR3xCJM[/url]