Rounds with a Vintage Bag

Rather than clutter up the "Bag for All Seasons" thread, I thought I would start one about recent playing results with vintage clubs.

I played last evening with my vintage bag consisting of Wilson Tour Blades 1-PW, Wilson JP PW, Wilson Geo Low Original 600 putter, Tony Penna persimmon driver, and Joe Powell DSP J1 3 wood. I shot a 46*-the asteric coming from a par 3 on which I picked up and gave myself a 6, counting 1 putt.

Of the 46 shots, 15* were putts, 19 were what I would call fair to good shots, and 12 were just bad shots. Five of the bad shots were played on the aforementioned blow up par 3. The good shots were by my bogey golfer standards: they flew through the air a reasonable distance in relation to the club selection in the intended direction, left a reasonably playable follow up shot, or accomplished the intended purpose--ie trouble shot. For instance, I hit a 7 iron on a par three that was the correct distance but a 5-6 yard pull put it in the sand rather than in the hole.

The bad shots were, well bad. Three sand shots, three tee shots, and six others. Of the tee shots, really all three would have probably had a similar result with modern clubs. More forgiving clubs would have only been worth maybe half a shot. The sand shots were just bad swings or technique.

Of the other six bad shots, one might have been better with a modern club. I had a marginal lie in light rough and tried to hit a 3 wood, resulting in a near top that went 60 yards. I could have probably gotten a three hybrid on that ball and put it on or near the green, and probably saved a par. I will give it another half a shot.

So, with the way I was swinging yesterday, my vintage bag may have cost one shot. I did enjoy myself though, and a couple of the good shots were probably helped by the vintage clubs. Then on the last hole, a 321 yard par four that has about a 40-50 foot elevation change uphill from tee to green, I hit a three wood off the tee that left about 100 yards to the green. Very satisfying sound and ball flight. 221 may not sound like much, but dead into that 50 foot hill it is pretty good.

Please share your recent play witn your vintage bag, and what if any effect playing vintage had on your score.

By the way, my course is par 72, 6338 yards from the whites with a rating of 70.4/123. The front is par 36, 3092 yards-I don't have the front side rating but it is a little easier than the back.

Excellent dbuck,
Another thread I look forward to following and hopefully will still be active when my surgeon releases me for play again.
Those yardage numbers, with respect to course length, are about on par with what I attempt to play when the persimmons are in the bag.

Hey dbuck,

There is a similar thread in "tales from the rough" asking how our scoring is with vintage vs. modern equipment.

Me, I've played five rounds all vintage this year, and two tied for my worst round, while one tied my best round. The other two were one stroke off the worst.

The problem is the driver. Although I can hit my vintage 3w well when I'm 100% on., I've now tried a few different types of club to drive with to no avail..

It.'s actually made me tee box-phobic, and So think next round may be all vintage with 2006ish driver.

The 3 most important clubs, from a scoring point of view, are driver, wedge and putter. Harvey Penick, Ben Hogan and Dave Pelz agree on this much.

So apparently does this statistician [url="http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2010-07/make-me-better"]http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2010-07/make-me-better[/url] The message would seem to be that it's the severity of your mistakes in a round that determine your score, and mistakes with driver, wedge and putter tend to be the most heavily penalised.

The point of all this is to conclude that the (IMO) minor differences in playability between classic and modern irons don't amount to much in terms of your score, provided your driving and short game are sound. Of the 3 scoring clubs, I'd say the obvious candidate for having improved over the years is the driver. Plenty of modern day putters still based on 30 or 40 year old designs - and I'd say that if wedges are better, it's just that there's greater choice in terms of loft and grind, rather than any inherent improvement in function (give or take grooves and face milling).

So - modern driver and well fitting classic irons, wedge and putter should be pretty close to your scoring potential.

Absolutely correct. Driver, wedge, and putter, the most important clubs. I think most of the golfing industry doesn't want the average golfer to realize that a one foot putts equals 300+ yard drives. How many commercials are geared to making putts? It's just buy this driver, crunch off the tee, or this super ball will add 10 yards to your drive.

Anyhow, I enjoy vintage golf more than modern golf. Even playing hickory, the expectations are less, but sometimes, the results are far greater.

This week's round was uneventful score wise. I am having some problems, but can't remember a shot yesteday that would have been better with modern equipment. Generally, my score was not good, mainly due to wedge play. I just hit some bad wedge shots. I also hit a couple of good wedges. The highlight of the round was the 7th, a 503 yard par 5. I was about 10 yards short of the green in 2. The drive with a Joe Powell DSP J1 persimmon driver split the fairway about 256. A Joe Powell DSP J1 3 wood was used for the second. These were followed by a mediocre wedge and two decent putts for par.

I played 9 yesterday evening with my Wilson Staff Tour Blades and Joe Powell DSP J1 persimmon driver and 3 wood. I hit a couple of pretty nice tee shots each with the driver and 3 wood. My bad miss with the driver is a high pull and that usually happens when I try a little too hard. I think it comes from stepping on the gas before you are in the right lane. I shot 47 over about 3100 yards, which is 2-4 strokes over my handicap I guess. As a couple of others have mentioned in this thread, the most important clubs are the driver, wedge, and putter. The wedge was my nemesis yesterday and has been several rounds this year. I have had the old stick a long time and it has always been one of my best shots, but something is a little off and it cost me 3 or 4 strokes yesterday, but actually after inflicting the damage, helped out on the following shot. (I believe in climbing back on the horse that threw you!)

On the whole, I was pretty satisfied with the long game yesterday. I missed a couple of drives on long holes, but the 3 wood helped me recover quite well, only to be thrown back in the ditch by the wedge. I also hit a couple of decent long iron shots yesterday. The vintage bag faired quite well yesterday; the lost strokes came from the wedge mostly.

I agree about the 3 most important clubs.
Back in the day I was a good driver..reasonable long and pretty straight about all the time. Always able to rule out one side of the fairway. It makes the game a lot simpler. Today....my tee ball can go anywhere and any distance. And I don't have any idea what or where. Gotta cost me 3-4 strokes a round, at a minimum.

Wedge/short iron play. When you start missing 5 or 6 or 7 (or more greens) per round from under 140 yards, how are you going to score? even if the next shot with a wedge is really good, I am not going to get up and down with it as often as I don't. If I am not sharp, I leave myself 5 to 10 foot puts, instead of 1-4 footers. Throw away another 4-5 shots a round.

Putting. I was always a good putter. I used to average a fraction over 30 putts. But frequent play/practice is critical to keep the feel.
Today, due to lack of playing time, the average probably hovers to almost 33 puts. So 2 or 3 more shots lost.

So at a minimum, I am 10 shots and maybe as much as 12 or 14 shots worse than I was. My handicap bears out that fact.

Admittedly the calendar causes some of this. I can't play the same game I played 30 years ago. And I certainly don't spend as much time on my game as I once did. Physically that is not an option. But it drives me crazy to hit a decent shot, then lay the sod over the next one and blade the next. ( turning birdie/par into bogey/double or worse). I can't remember the last time I played a round without at least one triple bogey. Used to go for several rounds without a double...weeks without triple or X. Heck, I made 10 twice this year and didn't have a penalty stroke.
That's golf. I guess that not being able to beat it is one of the reasons we love it.

Schizophrenically yours,
Uncle Bob

Words of wisdom form Uncle Bob: You never own your golf swing. The best you can hope for is a long-term lease on it, with infrequent , temporary evictions.

As those who have followed my thread responses in Tales from the Rough (How does playing Vintage Clubs affect your scoring) I went into some great detail about how my Score and Handicap are affected using Vintage vs Modern clubs for me, as well as the affect on Handicaps "then" vs "now" according to the USGA's Handicap Records.

I am not a young man anymore but I don't feel that at 58 I am an "OLD MAN" either, just not as limber, a little "Rounder", and a little slower clubhead speed than in my youth!
Well today was a Jeckyl and Hyde round for me, the first 9 (we played Woodforest Golf Course in Montgomery Texas, Back 9 to West 9) was about as bad as I have hit it in a long time! But the round was salvaged with a 2 over par second 9. But I played with some really great guys, and we all had a blast, and after all isn't that what this crazy game is all about for all of us "Mere Mortals" anyway!

I see importance perhaps a little different than specific clubs, but more as the results of Fairways hit, Greens hit, and the number of putts, as I know that I am not getting any "Longer" these days, so I try to focus on the Quality of the shots that I hit!

Fairways hit on first 9 = 5 of 7
Greens hit on first 9 =3 of 9
Putts on first 9 = 19
so you can figure out how poor that sides score was!

Fairways hit on second 9 = 7 of 7
Greens hit on second 9 = 6 of 9
Putts on second 9 = 17


A little about the green speed at Woodforest, they stimp them every morning and post the speed at the Clubhouse Door. The sign said "Todays Green Speed is 12!"
and I haven't played on fast greens in quite a while (my home course is usually somewhere between 9 and 10.


My bag make up was as follows:

Driver is a Wood Brothers Texas Soleplate 10* with a DGS300 Steel Shaft

4 Wood is a 1970's Wilson Staff Tour Block with Pro Only Steel Shaft

Irons are Limited Edition Wilson Staff Tour Blades 4-PW with TX105 True Temper Steel Shafts (Clubs were made for the Edwin Watts buying group and was my first round with them)

Gap, Sand, and Lob Wedges are Original (1990's) Cleveland 485

Putter is a Wilson 8813 that belonged to my dear friend who passed away several years ago

Golf Ball is Wilson Staff Duo

Johnny H. Thanks for the update. At 59 I understand about the age thing. Some days are just physically better than others. At times it seems like pot luck wrt how we feel when we wake up.

Also, fully can appreciate the difference between the nines. It seems no matter how good a stretching session and/or pre round range session I have my body will not get into golfing mode until after the turn. I had been, before surgery walking 27 holes when I went out and using the first nine as my warm up so speak, but post surgery that's not happening for awhile.

I have a "hickory shaft" set, a experimental bag set, and my main set. My "hickory shaft" set is really pryothene shafts. They give me the satisfaction I'm playing hickory clubs. I wanted some new ones from Louisville Golf, but I'd rather go on a nice vacation than buy a set of clubs.
My experimental bag is odds and ends I find at thrift stores. I love wedges, I sometimes pack three or four just to play around with. I usually pack a five, seven iron and a 3 wood and five wood.
My main set is MacGregor Jack Nicklaus blades from the 1960's. I have good days and bad days with them as the sweet spot on the irons is probably as big as a dime. I had a tough round a couple of weeks ago. I plan to go out today with my odd and ends set.

Yesterday evening's round was a 44 over 3092 yards. The 44 included 2 doubles. The bag was Wilson Staffs, a Wilson putter, Joe Powell driver and 3 wood, and Titleist DT SoLo balls. I hit persimmon off the tee on 6 holes, and 3 were very good for me. My bad shot with any driver is usually a high pull, and this was the case on the 3 not so good tee shots. Two of the three were playable, one not so much;( I hit some good 50 yardish pitches with my Wilson JP wedge, which has been acting up lately. Of the 3 good tee shots, 2 were with the 3 wood and one with the driver. One 3 wood was perfect in distance and direction; a nice medium height draw that I have been trying to hit all summer. The other 2 went right on the line I was aiming for, though a few yards shorter than I would have liked. They were in the position I was looking for, though. The point of all this gibberish is that I had a very enjoyable round with lovely classic clubs, and that I played right at my handicap with technology that pre-dates by 20 or so years the tools with which the handicap was established. A good day.

Shot double my handicap with my vintage bag over 9 the other day, though it started so well.....the Bullseye was working, and I was +2 through 5 (2 bogeys, 3 pars).

Then an overhit approach into cabbage ended with a double, followed by bogey, triple (duff, water hazard), and bogey. Actually hit the point of "don't care" after the 5th hole - things were moving very slow in league, I had enjoyed a few brews, and completely lost focus. C'est la vie!

Of the 4 driver holes, I was so inconsistent with the new stick on the first 3, I hit the Ping Eye 2 on the fourth. Results were acceptable, and only the ball's position hurt me (leaked right). Tried a hard high draw around a poplar, and just started the ball a bit too far left.

Not the club's fault for any of my bad swings, and when the wheels fell off, it wasn't club related.

Have had a few of those to the point of don't cares myself SMac. Always leave me with a bad taste in my mouth. The first tee is always so full of optimism that when the wheels come off it sends me into a melancholy state. But, in golf, as in life, as long as we wake up above ground there is always the next round with its new beginnings.

I tried out a little 4 wood yesterday. It is a MacGregor by Nicklaus VIP persimmon I picked up at an antique mall. It cleaned up fairly well, and I had a new Crossline put on. It has a straight tapered (no steps) Mac #2 medium shaft--I am assuming that is about like a regular. I hit it 5 times in nine holes yesterday. Three of the five were quite pleasing, the other 2 not so much. I will post a picture of the club as soon as I can.

I was having trouble off the tee yesterday, as well as out of greenside bunkers. In both cases, I think I was tensing up too much and trying to steer the ball instead of making a good smooth pass.

This morning, I played 11 holes with two of my pals. (Rain out.) I played my 1969 aluminum shafted Haig Ultras, walking, and scored a 40 for 9 holes. Driver, 4W, 6-8-9I and Bullseye putter. One hole, I really connected with my driver, and paced off 242 yards. I can still hit the old blade 9 iron well over 110.

Would have broken 40 if I putted better.

Did a twilight nine with these this evening.

Wilson 1&5 4300
Haig Ultradyne II 5,7,&9 irons
Golfcraft Continental SW
Spalding Cash-in putter
Tittlest Professional 100 ball

Great weather, great company, some great shots.

Last week I shot a 44, and yesterday 48 over the same 9 holes. In spite of the scores, I am coming around. Yesterday I hit a lot of good feeling shots that were not that far off. I was trying a different ball yesterday, (Bridgestone E-6), and the weather was breezy and cool, so my distance was off a bit. (I must blame it on something, right?)

I was playing with a gentleman a few years my senior who was pretty decent. He was swinging some sort of Taylormade white driver, and doing a good job of it; mostly straight down the middle with a good trajectory, if not really long. He was hitting somewhere around 200-220, and I was holding my own with my Joe Powell 3 wood, usually a yard or two in front or behind him, though not all mine were in the middle. I only hit driver once, and it was not as good; a low slice about 190. I have decided to put myself on "training wheels" for a while, and reduce my use of the driver until I am a little more consistent with the 3 wood. I hit a very nice fairway shot with the little MacGregor by Nicklaus VIP 4 wood.

I was pleased with the way I was hitting my Staff Tour Blades yesterday; direction was good even if distance was off a bit on a couple of holes. The main cause of the score yesterday was 3 less than good sand shots, a lost ball, and the fact that I 3 putted both par fives after being on in regulation. That was all me, I just mis-read the speed pretty badly. On the last hole, I made a little 8 foot downhiller that broke a foot to the right, and the ball just fell in the cup. That will keep "Ole George" in the bag a while longer.

The point of this entry, and I really debated over posting here as opposed the "Set for All Seasons" thread, is that I am getting close, at least for my personal play. By close, I mean that I would score as well with vintage as I would with more modern. In a team scramble or some such nonsense, I may need those metal crutches. I think after a few weeks on training wheels, the driver may start to come around.

I don't think I will get to the point of selling or giving away all my hybrids and Volkswagons on a stick, but I had a lot a smiles yesterday from the pure feel of my old sticks on good shots.

dbuck,
Thanks for sharing. It takes awhile to get the swing of things with the persimmons and vintage irons, but, for me the enjoyment I receive from doing so far outweighs any conceived negatives.
Scoring, in my opinion is a constant quest. When I have the time to devote to practice my scores lower, when not, they rise. That's regardless of playing vintage or modern.
The more you work with your persimmon off the tee the more trusty it will become. If my scores really balloon up its usually because of penalty strokes and flub ups around and on the green, so that's where I tend to spend the most practice time.
Good luck going forward.

I played Thursday with 2 close friends. My buddy is a member of a nice private course. I brought along one of my persimmon drivers and planned on pulling it out on a couple holes without telling my buddies. I hit it 3 times. Here is a picture of me hitting it on a 280 yard uphill par 4. I drove this green once with a Ping G10 5 years ago. Thursday I hit it 50 yards short of the green. On another hole I managed to crank one out 250, 35 yards just short of my brother who busted one to the fairway bunkers. My buddy Tim during this shot was amazed how well I hit this one and the great distance and flight of the ball. He hasn't seen persimmon played in 20 years. I was playing a Professional 90. Normally this hole good players hit a long iron off the tee , then a SW from about 80 to 90 yards.

I really like this pic my twin brother caputed with his iphone. If you see the 2 bunkers on the left hand side of the hole in this pic, there is a smaller bunker closer to the green, my drive was just to the right of it. The 2nd shot is very tough because you can only see the flagstick and the green is diabolical. Great short par 4 , nomally a challenging par.

Great pic Fc. Love those short 4 pars and all that comes with them. Just don't see as many today it seems.

Nice form there, Freddiec

Played my second round of all vintage today and it was pretty much a disaster! Couldn't get off the tee to save my life. I think the biggest problem was that I went back to swinging like an ***hole again! Haha. Where did that nice smooth persimmon swing go?

I hit only one fairway on the front, just four on the back. I had high hopes after a stellar practice session on the range yesterday but that might've done more harm than good as I was really chopping wood and probably ingrained some bad habits (i.e. over-swinging).

I will say, though, that this is a course that always gives me fits. In fact, after today I have a new personal policy regarding it: I will only play it if its free, which luckily today it was.

Despite having nothing but bad memories there I was actually kinda excited about playing it today because its a persimmon era course. Original 9 was laid out in the 50's, back 9 added in the 80's if I recall correctly. We played from the tips today but that's only 6300 yards. However, its tree (and street) lined, really tight, with thick rough and super fast bent grass greens. One member said they were stimping a 14 recently.

I started out with a beautiful and straight 3 wood on the first tee, with just a hint of a draw. However, it would be 12 more holes before I played another tee shot out of the fairway. When I wasn't coming OTT (which I always do when in panic mode) then I was hitting it in the heel and the gear effect was peeling it dead right. And I chunked a lot of irons today, too.

Unfortunately, my playing partner was also slumping today and we got drilled 6 and 5. Yikes!

Still, I remain undeterred. I hit enough good shots to remember that its not the arrows its the indian. With the swing and mindset I had going today no amount of technology would have helped (although a mental coach might've).

So tomorrow afternoon I'm going back out, this time at my home course. When I joined up they were running a special that included getting your first round free each month. Since I haven't used mine for October I have to play tomorrow or lose it. Sorry, Wifey, I have no choice!

...and Friday will be the 1st, so I'll be eligible for another free round! Work is slow right now and the weather is great, so seems like a great time to pound the lumber, right?

Holden, I feel no shame in playing a modern-ish driver off the tee, for the exact reasons you state. I do play my persimmon 5W off the tee on 1-2 holes every round (depending on wind), but as of yet have not found the piece of lumber that I have confidence with.

If you're ruining your round by being pedantic about playing 100% vintage, then where is the real enjoyment of playing vintage?

Holden - have you tried using a 2-Wood instead of a Driver ?

The inch shorter shaft and additional loft might help ?

Well I figured out last night what I was doing wrong. Went to the range after lunch and in just 10 minutes I was back to hitting them straight, woods and irons.

Then went out and hit 12 out of 14 fairways with the persimmon, including 10 of 12 with the driver. Since I was playing by myself I also carried my wishon 919 titanium driver and tried a little experiment. On 11 of the holes I hit both drivers. I recently reshafted the wishon with a steel shaft, same flex, same length as the persimmon. They also have the same grips, and I was hitting the same ball, Wilson fg tours, just different numbers to tell them apart. Not exactly a scientific experiment, but at least I eliminated all of the non human factors save the difference in driver heads.

The results surprised me. The last time I tried this the titanium was pretty consistently 15-25 yards longer, although I had just acquired the wood woods and was still trying to get used to them.

On the first hole I put a real good swing on the Hogan and it came off almost dead straight but low, I bet it never got over 10 feet off the ground. Of course it rolled out pretty good but I felt like I had missed a good opportunity by not getting any lift. So then I hit the wishon and really nailed it. Much higher trajectory and I thought to myself, yeah, there's the difference right there. Game over!

However, when I got out there to the balls I was shocked to see that the Hogan had actually rolled out 10 yards further than the wishon, which really hadn't rolled much at all. And there was no mistaking which ball was which because the Hogan had gone down the left center while the wishon went down the right center, and of course they had unique numbers. This began a pattern that would repeat itself most of the day. The wishon always carried further and had a slight fade bias while the persimmon had much greater roll and just the hint of a draw. Btw, I estimated the Hogan persimmon drive at 255-260 yards which is a great drive for me.

On the front side I hit dueling drivers 6 times, hitting 5 fairways with each and really did not hit any of them less than solid. The persimmon rolled out farther on 5 of the 6 holes. On the par 4 sixth hole, which is uphill and today was into the wind, I hit another bullet with the Hogan that just climbed right up the incline while the wishon ballooned into the wind and pretty much stopped dead where it landed: advantage Hogan by 25 yards. Seriously, I walked it off. Surprising...

On the backside I did it 5 more times, with the wishon winning 4 holes for distance but the hogan hitting one more fairway. One of the holes the wishon won was a clear mishit by the Hogan (30 yard win for technology), and another one was just a 2 yard advantage.

Overall, the Hogan won longest drive honors 6 times to the Wishons 4 (the other hole I nailed a tree with the Wishon and declared a mistrial). On the whole, the persimmon Hogan was a net +28 yard winner. So I clearly did not hurt myself with it today and its not a stretch at all to say that it actually helped me: one more fairway hit and 3 extra yards on average.

Now, I think the conditions play a big factor in the comparison but so does spin. Atlanta has seen a lot of rain this year and the fairways have been consistently soft. Also, the Bermuda grass is just now starting to go dormant for the winter, making them just a little drier and thinner and the fairways were mown very close today.

So the conditions favored low running shots over moon balls. With longer grass and drier soils the results might've tipped the other way.

But I also felt a distinct difference in the amount of both backspin and sidespin that the two clubs imparted. And I preferred the persimmon in this regard.

Blade Junkie, I did just this week acquire a Macgregor 2 wood but I'm still trying to rehab the leather grip on it before I cut it off and so I haven't been able to hit it yet. Also, I'm loving the Hogan PC7 irons, they feel noticeably softer than my medallions. I hit 10 greens with them today. I should've broken 80, what with 13 fairways and 10 greens but it took me 38 (!!!) putts. Also bladed 2 sand shots that cost me big time.

Scooter, if I came off as pedantic then I apologize. I remain convinced, however, that the only impediment to my golf performance is not the equipment but the swing that I put on it. And I like the place that the aesthetic beauty, feel, and history of the classic clubs puts me in. I definitely feel like it enhances my enjoyment of the game.

Hey Holden,

Sorry if you thought I was calling you pedantic. In the "set for all seasons" thread, we discussed the modern driver extensively, and if it was appropriate to use one.

I just wanted to recommend that if you were set on using a vintage bag, and everything was great except for the driver, don't force yourself to use the driver if it was sucking the fun of vintage.

For most of us, rekindling our enjoyment of the game is why we play vintage, and teebox anxiety is not a way to find enjoyment.

Well the driver generally sucks the fun out of golf for me regardless of its size and/or molecular composition. But my thinking is that the persimmon is the path to improvement for me. Much like blades vs SGI, the greater precision required forces me to make a smoother, more balanced swing rather than swinging out of my shoes.

It was interesting to find that at least under some conditions, I don't have to give up any significant distance if I choose to game wood. My long hitting friend met me at the driving range yesterday desiring to try out my persimmons. He came away with the same conclusions regarding distance; that is, the lower ball flight and spin characteristics combine for roll outs that fairly well compensate for the reduced carry...at least under ideal circumstances.

HC,
If I may chime in with respect to finding a persimmon club that suits your needs off the tee. Don't be afraid to try a range of different flexes when searching for "the one."
In my case the shaft is much more the transmission and the club head itself the chassis. Your physically body and swing being the motor.
One may well, depending upon type of transition in the swing be capable of playing a far stronger flex and weight in the shaft that today's acceptable logic dictates.
It's all about the transition and transmission.